Implications of some possible house rules.

[Metahuman1]

So, just kind of though experiments here. How would the following things effect Tier rating/class Strength?


Give him an affiliation that grants an Item Familiar for Crafting XP, Max Use Magic Device and Spell Craft, and have the affiliation also grant him most/all of the Item Creation feats at a rate similar to what the Artificer Get's.

Then rule that Empowered Spell Like Ability, Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability all don't have a daily cap on uses.

Let him take Metabreath/Breath Weapon Centered Feats with out having to jump through other hoops save either a minimum number of damage dice or a minimum Con Score.

Allow the Tashlorana feat to use Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk, then Key him up with the feat progression swordsage things, most importantly, Maneuvers, freely between it and whichever Psionics class is used as the other half.

Then Let him pick up the Incarnum Recharge Trick.

In this one I'm interested to know which one would be better, Ardent or Psi-Warrior, and if it's better to go heavier on the Psionics Levels or on the Initiator Levels.

Let them change out there Vestiges / Shaped and/or Bound Soul Melds Any time they can get a couple of minuets, with out having to have rested first, in a similar fashion to how Martial Adepts can change there Maneuvers Readied with just five minutes of down time, or just one round of down time with feat.

Give it an Affiliation that grants him additional maneuvers and stances known and readied equal to a Warblade of his crusader level, and opens up Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Maneuvers and Concentration as a class skill.

And have it tack him some bonus feats that are usually things Crusaders Need (Endurance + Steadfast Determination, Power Attack, Stone Power, Adaptive Style, this kinda thing.)

Bucklers can be wielded by strapping them to your forearm for a 5 GP mundane Item that allows the owner to benefit form the Buckler while Wielding 2 weapons or a 2 handed weapon. This is to give Mundanes a bit of extra AC and more slots for Immunity's and the like with out having to spend money on Animated Shields.



Yes, I realize in general these would make the classes stronger/better. What I'm trying to assess is just how much. Enough for Strong Tier 3? Move them up to Tier 2? More? Less?

[Vhaidara]

Warlock sounds insanely strong. With unlimited uses/day, every lock will be taking them and using them on EVERY blast. Add that in with much more efficient crafting, and it sounds like a T2 (which I consider a bad thing)

DFA sounds fine.

Don't know enough about how Tash works to judge.

Does this not apply to Soulborn? Or did you just intentionally forget it's existence?

Crusader: You say "grants him additional maneuvers and stances known and readied equal to a Warblade of his crusader level". Did you mean that it brings him up to that number, or that he gets them in addition to the normal crusader maneuvers? The first one is fine. The second one is crazy.

General rule: Cool.

As far as tiers, Aren't all of these classes T3 anyways, with Binder and Warlock being able to be cheesed to T2? I will say your warlock sounds undeniably T2 to me.

[Metahuman1]

Warlock: En, crafting is potent, but on the flip side, it helps the whole party assuming the player doesn't decide to be a jerk.

I see the point about the SLA feats though. Maybe if we knocked Maximized off that list?

As an aside, out of the box, Warlock is generally considered Tier 4.

DFA: Cool.

Tash: Gotcha.

Binder/Incarnum Classes: Binder is Tier 3 Minus 1 specific Online Vestige as I understand it. The one that gives Summon Monster at Binder Level equal to caster level 1 every 5 rounds. I'm under the impression Totemist and Incarnate tend to be considered Tier 4 because Soulmelds interfere with use of gear with out feat taxes, and are Cumbersome to change out with out waiting a day, which Many DM's are loathed to do.

SoulBorn, I'd be willing to give it too, but it would require someone to want to play a soul born, and it would probably need a LOT more work. These were more just quick Nice things I could throw at the classes.

Crusader: He's considered right at Mid Tier 3 (I'm less sure I see it personally, he's got 2 maneuver based Utility tricks, mountain hammer and healing with a willing target he can wail on and not hurt and probably has the worst skill assortment of the tome of battle classes.) out of the box. But there are some tricks in Iron Heart and Diamond Mind (The Concentration to Save counters and the Iron Heart Disarm maneuver, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge and some of the attack multiple targets maneuvers, that I think are very fitting on Crusaders. )

That said, if the second one is laying it on a bit thick, what about letting him dip Warblade, and have him gain maneuvers known/readied as Warblade maneuvers (Complete with that recovery Mechanic.) and allow him to use learn martial maneuver the feat to pick up some of the higher level maneuvers form Diamond Mind or Iron Heart as he get's higher level if he likes, and let the Affiliation just grant bonus feats?

[Coidzor]

So is this an additional item beyond a buckler that attaches to it or just a change to the base buckler? :smallconfused: And does it still give the -1 to attack either way?


Crusader: You say "grants him additional maneuvers and stances known and readied equal to a Warblade of his crusader level". Did you mean that it brings him up to that number, or that he gets them in addition to the normal crusader maneuvers? The first one is fine. The second one is crazy.

Yeah, having full Warblade progression to spend on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers and stances might be a bit much.

[Metahuman1]

What about letting him dip Warblade for 1 level and functionally getting a half progression, with the option to expend a few feats for some of the higher level stuff later on as he GET's higher level?


Edit: This is an additional Item, and it doesn't give the -1 to attack.

I'm basing in on having done some organized foam sword fighting type sports before, and some people would have smaller shields they'd strap to there forearm or shoulders to block with while using two weapons or polearms/bigger swords or the like, and it generally worked out pretty well for them.

[AmberVael]

So, just kind of though experiments here. How would the following things effect Tier rating/class Strength?


Give him an affiliation that grants an Item Familiar for Crafting XP, Max Use Magic Device and Spell Craft, and have the affiliation also grant him most/all of the Item Creation feats at a rate similar to what the Artificer Get's.

Then rule that Empowered Spell Like Ability, Maximize Spell Like Ability and Quicken Spell Like Ability all don't have a daily cap on uses.
Tier: The Truenamer. You done broke it son, it doesn't work anymore. Best step back and figure out what you're actually trying to accomplish. If you want an artificer, just use artificer rather than pulling in the rules for item familiar of all things. If you want to boost the warlock's spell-likes, do it in a way that actually increases their power rather than just ramping up damage and adding in extra actions. I'm more of a fan of adding more invocations known and invocations that use atypical actions. Plus actually making essences worth using is generally a nice fix. Full attacking with blasts is also better than just automatically maximizing and empowering them for a variety of reasons.


Let him take Metabreath/Breath Weapon Centered Feats with out having to jump through other hoops save either a minimum number of damage dice or a minimum Con Score.
Doesn't really change much, honestly, just makes things more legitimate and simpler. Power generally remains as is, though a few DFAs may now realize they can cause the destruction of the world due to poorly written feats.


Allow the Tashlorana feat to use Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk, then Key him up with the feat progression swordsage things, most importantly, Maneuvers, freely between it and whichever Psionics class is used as the other half.

Then Let him pick up the Incarnum Recharge Trick.

In this one I'm interested to know which one would be better, Ardent or Psi-Warrior, and if it's better to go heavier on the Psionics Levels or on the Initiator Levels.
I... have a hard time understanding what you're even saying here. Probably best to explain more clearly if you want input.
But I would easily say that it would always be better to go heavy on the psionic levels. ToB classes are really nice for dipping and multiclassing, while psionics are much like casting in that you want to keep it as high as you can manage (though they're a little more flexible on this front).

Ardent would probably be the better choice here because it has its own multiclass shenanigans and is just a more powerful class overall. Psychic warrior would make you tougher and more of a combatant though.

Also, incarnum recharge? I... don't know that it exactly bumps things up a tier (tier is kinda weird), but it has an undeniable effect on power. You can go nova at will, without really worrying. There's no such thing as 'per day' to you. Psychic Warrior might go up a tier because of that, though I'd be less sold on Ardent (since you'd still mostly be breaking things the same way as before, just with increased frequency and less restraint).


Let them change out there Vestiges / Shaped and/or Bound Soul Melds Any time they can get a couple of minuets, with out having to have rested first, in a similar fashion to how Martial Adepts can change there Maneuvers Readied with just five minutes of down time, or just one round of down time with feat. I think the incarnum classes might shift up to quite viable tier 3s from this, since they'd be able to use all their more situational stuff reliably. It'd make them a lot more like a factotum, sort of the jack of all trades. I'm not sure whether totemist or incarnate would benefit more... on one hand, a lot of totemist's stuff is more combat focused and has a lot of redundancy. However, the different things they do get tend to have more variety and weight to them. Meanwhile, the incarnate gets a wider selection of low grade effects, mostly skill boosts.
Binder would at least move closer to the top of tier three- being able to pull out more precise answers to situations could be quite useful. I think I'd see them as more competitive with the real top notch tier threes at that point.


Give it an Affiliation that grants him additional maneuvers and stances known and readied equal to a Warblade of his crusader level, and opens up Iron Heart and Diamond Mind Maneuvers and Concentration as a class skill.

And have it tack him some bonus feats that are usually things Crusaders Need (Endurance + Steadfast Determination, Power Attack, Stone Power, Adaptive Style, this kinda thing.)
Meh. Its more, but without any real changes to what it does, you know? It ends up being like giving a fighter more feats, except with more style.


Yes, I realize in general these would make the classes stronger/better. What I'm trying to assess is just how much. Enough for Strong Tier 3? Move them up to Tier 2? More? Less?
I don't think the majority of this would make any of the classes better. It would definitely make them stronger, but I find most of the ideas to be pretty sloppy. The most elegant one is allowing binders and meldshapers to change their abilities during five minute rests, but even that has only limited impact on how the classes really function (which is largely what determines tier).

[Metahuman1]

The Warlock: I'm basically trying to have all the stuff the party needs and really, really, really wants out of having a caster (Can hold there own in a fight, can keep allies juiced up as they need to be/gear up to suit level and problem properly so that they can have the things they actually need, utility options, someone who can make cheap wands and Scrolls for UMD users and healing items to help minimize the need for someone to play a dedicated healing class, ext.) With out having the hassle of Having the caster in the party. I figured they'd do most of that with crafting, and have a few invocations, wands and a Stronger Eldridge Blast handy to give them enough options in a fight to be interesting and fun, but not so many as a normal caster might have, and they'd have enough good stuff out of combat for themselves and the party, that the party could fairly easily do with out said caster. (Or an Artificer.)


DFA: Well, 3 for 3 that this idea seems to be on the mark, that's encouraging.


Psionci-Swordsage-thing: Ok, so, you know how a common Monk Alternative is to take 2 levels of Monk, then Tashlorana, and then take the rest of your levels as Psi Warrior or Ardent, letting all your monk ability's be progressed by the Tash feat, which also let's you retroactively progress all your Psionic goodness off your monk levels?

I'm asking how good/bad/powerful/over powered it would be to do that, except replace the word/class "Monk" With "Unarmed Swordsage." And from there, how good/bad/powerful/over powered it would be to take another step, and use Unarmed Swordsage as the main Chassy, and the Psionics Classes as the dip for a tone of nice things?

And then how bad adding a Recharge Mechinic on top of that would be to try and help encourage the player to nova and USE those Psi-powers for all there worth since Psi-Warrior/Ardent, as I understand it, have good options, but not so many as to be anything close to game breaking on there own.


Binder/Incarnum: Alright, that sounds about like what I'd be hoping to accomplish with them. Thanks for the input on that front. =)


Crusaider: I think in his case, that's actually not too far form what I'm trying to accomplish, so, that sounds not so bad actually. Though, others have voiced that it's probably too much, so, might be scaling that back abit as suggested above.





That's kinda the goal. I'm throwing ideas at the forum, getting feed back, and refining them. I'd expect the starting points to be sorta sloppy. Speaking of, thanks for said feed back! =)

[AmberVael]

By the time warlock can really do all the things you're describing with the change you suggested, they're no longer warlocks. The main power you've given them (magic item creation) is completely separate from the subsystem that they focus on, and frankly more powerful. Its basically just a jury rigged artificer.
Besides, with the way magic items work all you've really done is replace casters running on spell slots with casters running on gold. All the headaches are still there, now your player just has a reason to be miserably miserly too.


As for the DFA, I should clarify that what I'm really saying is that it isn't even much of a change. It will remain at around the bottom of tier 3 at best, and likely be outstripped by all the things you're proposing.


On the psionics/swordsage topic- first, its Tashalatora. Also, no one uses Tashalatora to dip into psionics, they use it to dip into monk, and that's exactly what you'd get with this version. You wouldn't get a swordsage picking up psionic tricks, you'd get a psionic character picking up initiator tricks.
And you don't want to use incarnum recharge except in high op type games. Seriously, just don't. Psionics are not balanced around the idea and it'll make the system wobbly as a jenga tower balancing on a single misaligned block. At best, give them a very small pool of points that regenerates over time so they can't constantly spam high power stuff, but can continue to use powers.


And on Crusader... its... just not the best way to go about things, really. If you must give it something more, don't make it feats and maneuvers- look to boost it in other areas. A pool of healing, similar to lay on hands? More skills/points? Auras? Some flavorful domain power style abilities? Things to give it some non-hit-things-in-the-face options.

[Metahuman1]

Warlcok: Alright, so, let's say I'm looking to get him up to a power level were he can do cool stuff, and do the stuff the party absolutely NEEDS casters for during Mid to High levels. What should I be doing if not making him excel at crafting magic items to gear up the party and provide nice wands to the UMD users? What kinds of things does he need to be able to do for himself and his party that will make him cool, useful, and not thinking that he could have played a wizard instead?

DFA: Hmmmm, Maybe add a few more invocations known/too choose form and up there skills to 6/level? Perhaps give them ability Focus: Breath Weapon and Ability Focus: Invocations along the way as benny's? And/or Up there Hit Dice a size?

Tash: Sorry, in my defense it doesn't exactly show up on spell check. Anyway, the idea was, yeah, to get that wonderful mix of Psionic powers that do awesome stuff and make you very not gear dependent, with Swordsage unarmed badassness. You don't need much if any buffs, your doing them on yourself.

En, I though the idea of some nice counters and freeing up the more or less obligatory feats so that a player could have room to goof around with other options was sufficient on this front, but, yeah, probably right. I'll see about coming back to him.

[Troacctid]

Warlcok: Alright, so, let's say I'm looking to get him up to a power level were he can do cool stuff, and do the stuff the party absolutely NEEDS casters for during Mid to High levels. What should I be doing if not making him excel at crafting magic items to gear up the party and provide nice wands to the UMD users? What kinds of things does he need to be able to do for himself and his party that will make him cool, useful, and not thinking that he could have played a wizard instead?
He already has the ability to craft magic items to gear up the party. If you want to buff that aspect of the class, just remove the xp cost for crafting, like Pathfinder does. That'll get him rolling for sure.

The easiest way to buff Warlocks is to increase their invocations known. The class has decent things to do, but lacks flexibility. So give them more flexibility. 4 + Int skill points and an extra invocation or two of each grade and boom. Maybe toss in a blast shape invocation that lets them full attack with eldritch blast, a la eldritch glaive, except ranged. Also, make it easier for them to qualify for prestige classes. They could use more options.


DFA: Hmmmm, Maybe add a few more invocations known/too choose form and up there skills to 6/level? Perhaps give them ability Focus: Breath Weapon and Ability Focus: Invocations along the way as benny's? And/or Up there Hit Dice a size?
They already got bonus skill points and a boost to their HD when they upgraded from Warlock. I don't think they need more upgrades to their chassis. The chassis is fine. But more invocations known for sure. And make it so that prestige classes advance their breath effects. Warlocks can get blast shape and essence invocations from prestige classes, so it's only fair.

[Coidzor]

What about letting him dip Warblade for 1 level and functionally getting a half progression, with the option to expend a few feats for some of the higher level stuff later on as he GET's higher level?

Seems a bit complicated to add on a progression from another class, even at half level and limited to only two schools. If you want to add in Iron Heart and Diamond Mind stuff you can probably work that in by expanding the maneuvers known/readied that crusaders get by default. Well. Except for the Diamond Mind Concentration instead of Saving Throws maneuvers. Those would kinda have to be something one could just *have* readied or automatically part of one's granted maneuvers, maybe? :smallconfused:


Edit: This is an additional Item, and it doesn't give the -1 to attack.

I'm basing in on having done some organized foam sword fighting type sports before, and some people would have smaller shields they'd strap to there forearm or shoulders to block with while using two weapons or polearms/bigger swords or the like, and it generally worked out pretty well for them.

So basically Bucklers cost 15 for archers and 20 for everyone else and no one wants TWF defense anymore unless you do a further change to allow TWF defense and a buckler to stack. Fair enough, though I might just change 'em so that they're that way without the extra 5 gp since it's not that much of a cost except for sometimes during char gen, I think.

[Metahuman1]

Alright, so, how about these for Warlock:

2 Extra Invocations known of each Grade.

Eldridge Blast works with Iterative out the starting gate.

That ability that gives them limited access fast healing is expanded, giving them just straight up fast healing, that stacks with fast healing form other sources like a Ring of Regeneration or the Vigor spell line.

Warlocks Unique crafting class feature doesn't require XP to use for up too 3 types of Item creation feat. (So, for example, you could do Potions, Scrolls and Wands, but not Rings or Wondrous Items. Or Wounderous Items, Wands and Rings, But not Potions or Magic Weapons and Armor.).

4+Int skills a level.

DFA:

2 Invocations more of each Grade and can pick form both the DFA and Warlock List.

Breathweapon is treated as qualifying for Metabreath feats as suggested above.



Crusader: Hmmmm, how unbalanced would it be to let the Crusader get Divine Grace instead of that thing they get for Cha to Will Saves, Paladin Casting Based on Charisma, Have 5 extra uses of Smite added on over 20 levels, and pick up immunity to fear, Disease and Poisons As a Paladin Has and Paladin Turn Undead?



Buckler: Think so? Alright, yeah, sounds good. Bucklers just work that way.

[Troacctid]

Eldridge Blast works with Iterative out the starting gate.

The reason I prefer having it as a blast shape option is because full attacking doesn't really make sense with blast shapes like Eldritch Cone that don't use attack rolls.

[ZamielVanWeber]

how unbalanced would it be to let the Crusader get Divine Grace instead of that thing they get for Cha to Will Saves, Paladin Casting Based on Charisma, Have 5 extra uses of Smite added on over 20 levels, and pick up immunity to fear, Disease and Poisons As a Paladin Has and Paladin Turn Undead?
Paladin just stopped existing as a viable class (well, not entirely but damn would that be a good try). None of these are powerful options. Sorcerer is tier 2 because they can bend reality to their whim. If you are trying to bump up crusader give him cleric casting 4th and then advance it at presitege bard rate (so the spells are more back loaded). That would go a lot farther and deny him 9ths, so clerics would have their own niche still. If you do that I recommend you don't give him turning.

[Metahuman1]

Hmmm, that's a point, but, aren't those blast shapes generally considered underpowered anyway by default?


Hmmm, Actually, that might not be a bad thing. Hell, take it a step further, throw on the Paladin of Freedom's Immunity to mind effecting/compulsion effects, and maybe let them have there special Mount and Detect Evil ability and just say "Meet the knew Paladin guys!" (allowing for different mounts as appropriate and changes from detect good to detect Evil, also as appropriate.)

[Troacctid]

Hmmm, that's a point, but, aren't those blast shapes generally considered underpowered anyway by default?

It's just weird is all. It has strange interactions and is not intuitive. It also scales differently compared to normal full attacks, because each additional attack is effectively multiple additional attacks (cuz AoE).

Eldritch Glaive is generally considered to be at a good, fair power level despite costing an invocation slot; in fact, AFAIK, it's considered to be one of the best blast shapes available. I expect many Warlocks would be very happy to spend a least invocation on a ranged version, especially if you gave it additional upside, like a 19-20 crit range mimicking a longbow.

[Metahuman1]

En, personally, I always though the favorite blast shape was Eldridge spear for that 250ft range increment to keep your freaking distance form the fight.

[Jack_Simth]

Warlock sounds insanely strong. With unlimited uses/day, every lock will be taking them and using them on EVERY blast. Add that in with much more efficient crafting, and it sounds like a T2 (which I consider a bad thing)


Tier-1 in fairly short order. The crafting pool and bonus feats pretty much turn the Warlock from a mini-artificer into a full artificer with a different flavour - and the artificer is already T-1.