Question: Hover vs. Tactical 3D Movement

[Rijan_Sai]

So, the Hover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#hover) feat against the Tactical Aerial Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#movingInThreeDimensions) chart.

Now, I know that "text trumps table," except that the feat is in the Monster Manual, (the Primary Source for all things monsters,) and the table is in the DMG (the Primary Source for all things non-monster/PC). So which one is right?


Hover [General]
Prerequisite
Fly speed.

Benefit
[cut for space]

Normal
Without this feat, a creature must keep moving while flying unless it has perfect maneuverability.


Maneuverability
Perfect Good Average Poor Clumsy
Minimum forward speed None None Half Half Half
Hover Yes Yes No No No
[extraneous content removed]

So, the feat says that only Perfect Maneuverability can hover, while the table says that Good Maneuverability can...which is correct? (This may or may not be important for an upcoming pixie character I'm working on...)

[eggynack]

I would place precedence on the chart, because things contained within feats tend to have a sort of specific tendency to them, as opposed to the more general case applied by the aerial movement rules. It's true that hover is attempting to assert a general and universal truth, but it can be argued that that truth only holds within the context of the feat.

[ace rooster]

Personally I would regard any 'normal' entry in a feat as for clarification of what the feat does only (having no impact at all on rules, but providing contrast for the 'benefit' entry), and give it no regard if it is wrong. It might help clarify something ambiguous, but where it flat contradicts something I would just regard that as a typo or oversight. I would certainly not grant a feat entry power to modify a rules call in cases where the feat is not in use. That way lies madness (and having to know every feat before making any call). If something like movement rules in the DMG is ever changed then nothing short of an errata will do it.

[Kristinn]

I would go by the DMG, without a sliver of doubt. It is, as you said, the primary set of regulations to impose on players being managed by the DM. Honestly, I think they were just still deciding whether Good maneuverability should get Hover or not, someone who thought they shouldn't get it wrote the Hover feat, and then by the time they made the DMG table they had decided to give Hover to Good maneuverability, and didn't remember to update the feat.

Of course it could be the other way around, but it is MUCH more likely that they forget to update the Before section of a feat in the Monster Manual, than them forgetting to update the primary table for information on flight capabilities of different degrees of maneuverability.

[Flickerdart]

A feat has no power to change rules outside of the feat. If there was no other guidance on what sort of maneuverability you'd need to hover, then Hover would be the authority, but it isn't.

[Qwertystop]

Secondary evidence: an example given for Good maneuverability here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) is a hummingbird - if that's not the iconic real-life hoverer I don't know what is.

[snailgosh]

Secondary evidence: an example given for Good maneuverability here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) is a hummingbird - if that's not the iconic real-life hoverer I don't know what is.

A hovercraft

[Ashtagon]

Tertiary Evidence: Unless the Surfing Sorcerers wanted to totalling re-invent the wheel for 3e, they would basically re-hash the 2e rules on flight. Which they pretty much did. Under 2e "optional advanced rules for flight":



Manoeuvre Class
Min. Speed
Turn Rate (degrees/round)


A
0%
360


B
0%
180


C
50%
90


D
50%
60


E
50%
30



(climb/dive rules didn't vary by manoeuvre class in 2e)

[Curmudgeon]

A hovercraft
That would be full of eels, of course.

[AnonymousPepper]

Wouldn't specific trump general in this case?

[Rijan_Sai]

Thanks for the replies, guys! I figured this is where we would go with it anyway, (lenient to a point DM, game is houseruled to the 9th level of Baator and back anyway!)

That said, this:


Wouldn't specific trump general in this case?

is really what sparked the question...

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't specific trump general in this case?
"Specific trumps general" applies in cases where you have a rule for, say, jumping, and then another rule for jumping in space; because the second rule is more specific, it has the right to change things in those specific circumstances.

This isn't that case - both are rules statements that say "in all cases, this is who is allowed to hover."

[Necroticplague]

I'd say Primary Source means that the table is right. The table is the primary source on the rules for flying, while the feat's "normal" text is a secondary source for flying in general, though its "benefit" is the primary text for how characters with the feat work.