Absolute minimum spell list (3.5)

[Gnoman]

My current game takes place a century after an apocalyptic war, and a lot of magic has become lost. To simulate this, all casters can only guarantee access to a very small selection spells per level (starting at spell level II), including divine and spotaneous casters (the fluff reasons for this aren't really important), all other spells depend on being found or reinvented by the players. With this in mind, what spells should absolutely be on that tiny list to make playing casters viable?

[SinsI]

Depends on what Threats and problems the DM wants to throw at them.
If the threat/problem list is the same as usual, when you should look at List of Necessary Magic Items http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851 and choose 1-2 spells for each point - one to attack it, the other to defend from it.

[Dormammu]

To simulate this, all casters can only guarantee access to a very small selection spells per level (starting at spell level II)

How about looking at Polls like the ones below?

Favorite Level 0-3 Spells:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uTsUP856UtqJKh4Lo_e3ddJvu0uOxctOwClBMVGWPpM/viewanalytics?formkey=dC1lWnA4YTlLX0ttSFQyWlVaRnZ3 QkE6MQ

Favorite Level 1 Spells:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/poll.php?pollid=2502&do=showresults

It would make sense that only the most popular spells survive. Say only the top 3 spells made it for each level.

OR you could take just the core spells; if they're used to having a billion splat books, this will seem quite restrictive.

[Dormammu]

Here's poll results for all levels:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?144162-Wizard-Spell-Polls

[Gnoman]

How about looking at Polls like the ones below?

Favorite Level 0-3 Spells:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1uTsUP856UtqJKh4Lo_e3ddJvu0uOxctOwClBMVGWPpM/viewanalytics?formkey=dC1lWnA4YTlLX0ttSFQyWlVaRnZ3 QkE6MQ

Favorite Level 1 Spells:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/poll.php?pollid=2502&do=showresults

It would make sense that only the most popular spells survive. Say only the top 3 spells made it for each level.

OR you could take just the core spells; if they're used to having a billion splat books, this will seem quite restrictive.

Neither of those is restrictive enough. Core has far too many spells for what I'm trying to do, and the polls are selected for "best spells" not "just enough to make a caster playable" spells. If I use those at all, it would probably be to pick what spells to absolutely restrict.

[Asrrin]

0-level
Detect Magic
Read Magic
Light
Mage Hand
Message
Arcane Mark
Prestidigitation

1st
Protection from G/E/L/C
Grease
Mage Armor
Identify
Sleep
Magic Missile
Silent Image
Charm Person

2nd
Invisibility/See Invis.
Arcane Lock
Levitate
Rope Trick
Knock
Shatter

3rd
Dispel Magic
Suggestion
Fireball
Haste

[rockdeworld]

In addition to looking at what spells a wizard should prepare, I'd look at what spells they need somewhere in their spellbook. I.e. Spells that are situationally required to not die, even if you don't need them all the time. For example, Magic Weapon is needed for the party to not die against an Allip at level 3.

What comes to mind:
0. Detect Magic, Light
1. Magic Weapon, Magic Fang, Shield of Faith, Cure Light Wounds, Protection From Evil
2. Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, Eagle's Splendor, Resist Energy, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Lesser Restoration
3. GMW, GMF, Fly, Displacement, Dispel Magic, Protection From Energy
4. Rusting Grasp, Dimensional Anchor, Scrying/Locate Creature, Dimension Door, Divination, Dismissal, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Holy Sword
5. Righteous Might (or 6. Transformation), Break Enchantment, Teleport, Contact Other Plane, Commune, Raise Dead
6. Planar Binding (or 9. Wish or Miracle), Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing, Heal
7. Plane Shift, Holy Word
8. Mind Blank, Discern Location
9. True Resurrection
All: Summon Nature's Ally I-IX, the cure [X] wounds line

All these spells (a.) solve a certain encounter/problem, (b.) are required to craft an item that solves an encounter/problem, or (c.) are a cleric/druid class feature

[With a box]

can we bring spell list from D&D 5th basic spell list?
It might be small list, isn't it?

[Gnoman]

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. I don't want "nice to have spells". I don't want "keep the wizard at tier 1 spells". I want "If you ban this spell I will flip the table and go home because the caster is now useless" spells ONLY.

[rockdeworld]

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. I don't want "nice to have spells". I don't want "keep the wizard at tier 1 spells". I want "If you ban this spell I will flip the table and go home because the caster is now useless" spells ONLY.
I'm pretty sure that's what I provided. If you take away any of those spells, you'd better have a really good reason ("there's no undead in this campaign") or the party is going to have big problems at some point.

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well. I don't want "nice to have spells". I don't want "keep the wizard at tier 1 spells". I want "If you ban this spell I will flip the table and go home" spells ONLY.

Read magic is a good place to start. Keep one damaging evocation from each level. Detect Magic and Identify are probably things that you should have existent. Dispel magic and GDM. Disjunction isn't necessary. Light. Possibly daylight. Possibly fly. Remove curse and other anti-status effects. Plane shift if you ever want planar travel.

That's all that's necessary, I think, but adding obvious iconic ones like invisibility might be good to flesh it out.

[rockdeworld]

I realized I forgot Feather Fall, even though its description is almost exactly "situationally required to not die." Not having it doesn't make casters useless though, unlike the other spells I mentioned. Just useless in the situation that the party finds themselves a long distance above ground.

[Gnoman]

I'm pretty sure that's what I provided. If you take away any of those spells, you'd better have a really good reason ("there's no undead in this campaign") or the party is going to have big problems at some point.

There's nothing "essential" about Planar Bindng to gain access to Wish or Miracle. Nor is Plane shift really critical except on the off chance that you roll badly on one of a handful of random-effect spells. Same with Contact other plane.

All the buffs you listed like Bull's STrength or Cat's Grace? "Nice to have spells", not critical. Same with Teleportation.

Invisibilty and Fly? I am not sure that either of those are really essential, particlarly since the magic shortage goes both ways, and most opponents won't have access either.

Rusting Grasp? I've never had a PC caster even take that spell, let alone cast it.



What I'm looking for is things like the Restoration or Cure X Wounds lines that are absoulutely essential.

I will probably add to the list once I have it (throwing in several of the Nice to Haves and such), and it is probably that most of the spells will show up as random loot (I'm not touching those tables) in ruins or invented by somebody, but what I'm looking for is exactly what I said, spells that are essential for the game to function.


EDIT:
@Jormengand

This is very much the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[Jormengand]

I realized I forgot Feather Fall, even though its description is almost exactly "situationally required to not die." Not having it doesn't make casters useless though, unlike the other spells I mentioned. Just useless in the situation that the party finds themselves a long distance above ground.

Honestly, I can't think of many situations where you require Holy Word, Rusting Grasp (Wizards exist in core, y'know), dim anchor, Animal's Stat, Transformation, D-door, invisibility, planar binding, SNA, Contact Other Plane, or protection from alignment.


EDIT:
@Jormengand

This is very much the sort of thing I'm looking for.

Gimme a bit and I'll write a list.

[Dormammu]

This might be unhelpful but you could go Gygaxian with the whole thing and roll 2-3 Spells per class/level using the treasure tables for scrolls. That would give you a nice random result.

Heck, let the players themselves do it and tell them that's all that's available.

[Gnoman]

This might be unhelpful but you could go Gygaxian with the whole thing and roll 2-3 Spells per class/level using the treasure tables for scrolls. That would give you a nice random result.

Heck, let the players themselves do it and tell them that's all that's available.

Originally I was just going to roll % dice whenever a PC tried to gain a spell (25% chance) that hadn't been seen before, but I was trying to be fairer about it.

[Auron3991]

Sorc/Wizard

0- Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1- Magic Missile, Shield, Cause Fear/Sleep
2- Rope Trick, Minor Image, Acid Arrow
3- Dispel Magic, Haste, Fireball/Lightning Bolt, Hold Person
4- Resilient Sphere, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire/Wall of Ice/Ice Storm
5- Dismissal, Shadow Evocation, Contact Other Plane
6- True Seeing, Repulsion, Freezing Sphere
7- Greater Scrying, Power Word Blind, Delayed Blast Fireball
8- Screen, Sunburst/Greater Shout, Mind Blank
9- Summon Monster IX, Energy Drain, Shades

I tried to give mostly decent spells, some usable ones, and a decently powerful one every so often (so as to distract the players from the relative weakness of the list). The iconic ones on the list (especially the third level) are specifically so the players don't start flipping tables before the game even starts.

[Elkad]

Let your party decide. Like this.

Other than universal spells, they are ALL lost.

When a caster would normally gain spells known (book or spontaneous doesn't matter) the caster must make a spellcraft check for every spell they want. If they fail, the ancient manuscripts they found are incomplete or incomprehensible and that spell isn't available (until level-up). They can choose another spell and roll for it instead, continuing until they have the correct number of successes. Full list casters (Cleric, etc) roll for a number of free "spells known" as if they were a Sorcerer.

Adjust difficulty as desired. The standard for memorizing a spell from a borrowed book is probably the lower limit (DC15+spell level). Depending on your party (and how hard you want to be on them), DC20+(level*2) might be appropriate. Or even worse, by adjusting the base DC higher, or the multiplier higher. Higher multiplier makes lower level spells fairly common, while restricting the top stuff.


Now your party makes the choices, but you want them to fail a fair amount of the time so they don't get all their first picks (and occasionally not even their 3rd pick).

[Jormengand]

Spell that you should add, (Situational whether to add or not), [Unnecessary but iconic enough that you might want to add it]

Sor/Wiz:

X: [Summon Monster]
0: Acid Splash, (Detect Poison), Detect Magic, Light, (Mending), Read Magic
1: Burning Hands, (Endure Elements), (Feather Fall), Identify, Magic Missile
2: Darkvision, [Invisibility], (Knock), (Resist Energy), Scorching Ray
3: (Daylight), Dispel magic, Fireball, (Fly), [Hold Person], [Lightning Bolt (or swap with fireball)], (Water Breathing)
4: [Dimension Door], [(Greater Invisibility)], Remove Curse, Shout, Wall of Fire
5: Break Enchantment, Cone of Cold, (Overland Flight), (Teleport)
6: Chain Lightning, Greater Dispel Magic, (True Seeing)
7: Delayed Blast Fireball, (Greater Teleport), (Mass invisibility), (Plane Shift)
8: Greater Shout, Polar Ray, Sunburst
9: Freedom, Meteor Swarm, (Teleportation circle)

May have gone a bit heavy with the level 8 evocations there, but oh well.

Cleric:

X: Cure/Inflict X wounds, [Summon Monster]
0: Create Water, (Detect Poison), Detect Magic, Light, (Mending), Read Magic
1: Remove Fear
2: Calm Emotions, Delay Poison, (Find Traps), [Hold Person], Lesser Restoration, Remove Paralysis
3: (Create food and water), (Daylight), Dispel Magic, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, (Water Breathing), (Water Walk)
4: (Air Walk), Freedom of Movement, Neutralise Poison, Restoration
5: (Atonement), Break Enchantment, (Plane Shift), (Raise Dead)
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Harm, Heal, (Wind Walk)
7: Destruction, Regenerate, (Ressurection)
8: Fire Storm
9: Mass Heal, (True Ressurection), (Storm of Vengeance)

Can't be bothered to do druid or bard at the moment but you can probably take a good guess.

Paladin

X: Cure X wounds
1: Create Water, (Detect Poison), Lesser Restoration
2: Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis
3: Daylight, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse
4: Break Enchantment, Neutralize poison, Restoration

Ranger

X: Cure X-1 wounds, [Summon Nature's Ally]
1: Delay Poison, Detect Poison, (Detect Snares and Pits), (Endure Elements), Read Magic
2: [Barkskin]
3: Darkvision, Neutralize Poison, Remove Disease, (Water Walk)
4: Freedom of Movement.

Phew. Apart from druid and bard, which I can do later if you like, that's it.

Anyway, yeah, there's a lot of variance depending on what happens in your campaign, but that should be a good general idea. Basically anything that removes status and heals, or solves problems no-one else can, then something to make you competent in combats.

[Blackhawk748]

Sorc/Wizard

0- Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand
1- Magic Missile, Shield, Cause Fear/Sleep
2- Rope Trick, Minor Image, Acid Arrow
3- Dispel Magic, Haste, Fireball/Lightning Bolt, Hold Person
4- Resilient Sphere, Summon Monster IV, Wall of Fire/Wall of Ice/Ice Storm
5- Dismissal, Shadow Evocation, Contact Other Plane
6- True Seeing, Repulsion, Freezing Sphere
7- Greater Scrying, Power Word Blind, Delayed Blast Fireball
8- Screen, Sunburst/Greater Shout, Mind Blank
9- Summon Monster IX, Energy Drain, Shades

I tried to give mostly decent spells, some usable ones, and a decently powerful one every so often (so as to distract the players from the relative weakness of the list). The iconic ones on the list (especially the third level) are specifically so the players don't start flipping tables before the game even starts.

Most of these seem ok, the ones i crossed out are ones i have never seen in play and so feel i would not need. The rest i feel would have been common enough pre apocalypse to be reasonable.

[Auron3991]

Most of these seem ok, the ones i crossed out are ones i have never seen in play and so feel i would not need. The rest i feel would have been common enough pre apocalypse to be reasonable.

Admittedly, the Contact Outer Planes was me trying to not restrict information gathering too much, but I never leave home without Rope Trick (specifically for hiding from ambushes and overpowered enemies), which is why I included it.

[Blackhawk748]

Admittedly, the Contact Outer Planes was me trying to not restrict information gathering too much, but I never leave home without Rope Trick (specifically for hiding from ambushes and overpowered enemies), which is why I included it.

Huh, i have never actually cast it. Granted when i need to GTFO i cast Expeditious Retreat and run like hell. Its worked well so far.

[deuxhero]

I'd say that stuff that is on (nearly) every spell list would still exist. Most casting classes have Read Magic, Detect Magic and Dispel Magic (+Greater if they get a high enough spell level), everything with Cantrips/Orisons has Light. Endure Elements isn't universal, but common.

[rockdeworld]

It sounds like there's a lot of quests you don't give your PCs. In which case, I agree you can ignore the spells I suggest that are required for those quests.


Invisibilty and Fly? I am not sure that either of those are really essential, particlarly since the magic shortage goes both ways, and most opponents won't have access either.
If monsters don't have access to magic via spells, SLAs, supernatural abilties, or the odd Ex ability, then of course it's an entirely different animal. I wrote this assuming you were using the MM.

Planar Binding isn't to grant access to Wish or Miracle, they're alternatives for the purpose of creating Manuals/Tomes in order to grant stat boosts at high levels in to enhance damage/survivability. If you give the PCs artifacts, there's no need for these, but I'm assuming you won't.

Contact other plane, and every other divination, are required for gathering information in any instance where you don't hand it out to PCs.

Plane Shift is required to adventure in another plane, chase plane shifting enemies, or on defense when they plane shift you.

The Animal's Stat spells are used to craft items of stat bonus, which are again to keep people doing normal damage/survivability for their level.

Teleportation is required any time you need to move a long distance quickly.

Rusting Grasp is used to craft Gauntlet of Rust, which is used to keep the fighter from losing all his items to a Rust Monster. I don't get Jormengand's point about Wizards.

Invisibility is used to help a wizard survive combat.

See Invisibility is to survive anything invisible.

Fly is used to get anywhere that doesn't have stairs/ladders.

Holy Word is for high level outsiders. If you only have the spells on my list, it's the only thing you'll have that can affect them.

Dimensional Anchor prevents tactical teleportation and guerrilla tactics by teleporters (by fleeing the battle and hitting again later).

Transformation/Righteous Might is used to craft Monk's Belt, required for Monks (unless you do something else to make them effective).

Dimension Door is tactical teleportation, used to escape Walls of X/Forcecage/pit traps/places that require flight.

Summon Nature's Ally is a druid class feature.

Protection from Alignment protects from Dominate Person/Magic Jar and similar effects.

Edit: extra line

[Gnoman]

Planar Binding isn't to grant access to Wish or Miracle, they're alternatives for the purpose of creating Manuals/Tomes in order to grant stat boosts at high levels in to enhance damage/survivability. If you give the PCs artifacts, there's no need for these, but I'm assuming you won't.

The Animal's Stat spells are used to craft items of stat bonus, which are again to keep people doing normal damage/survivability for their level.

Rusting Grasp is used to craft Gauntlet of Rust, which is used to keep the fighter from losing all his items to a Rust Monster. I don't get Jormengand's point about Wizards.

Transformation/Righteous Might is used to craft Monk's Belt, required for Monks (unless you do something else to make them effective).




In other words, you're writing what's essential for a high-op game. My games are NOT high-op, and items like this are not common.

[SinsI]

Will they have access to other sources of necessary abilities - magic items, soulmelds, Tome of Battle maneuvers, summoned/dominated monsters?
Can they make "non-spell" spells, i.e. as alchemic potions?

[Auron3991]

Huh, i have never actually cast it. Granted when i need to GTFO i cast Expeditious Retreat and run like hell. Its worked well so far.

I kind of prefer the 'hide in my little extra dimensional space' strategy. Helps me sleep at night. But I like your strategy as well.

[Gnoman]

Will they have access to other sources of necessary abilities - magic items, soulmelds, Tome of Battle maneuvers, summoned/dominated monsters?
Can they make "non-spell" spells, i.e. as alchemic potions?

Magic items, yes. Tome of battle and soulmelds are independently banned (I dislike the former, and the latter doesn't make any sense in this cosmolgy.) Plus, they can get more spells than this baseline, they just have to get lucky with treasure/loot or put in the time to invent it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

You don't want to gimp Wizards below their resident Tier 1, but want to gimp there spell list to not include the things that make them tier 1? Priorities. One or the other man. Inherently, by gimping the spell list, your reducing its tier already by reducing flexibility. The main difference is it sufficient to drop it below 1, and if I'm understanding correctly, your looking at a half dozen spells per level, then yes your gimping to below Tier 1 based solely on the lack of flexibility.

[Gnoman]

You don't want to gimp Wizards below their resident Tier 1, but want to gimp there spell list to not include the things that make them tier 1? Priorities. One or the other man. Inherently, by gimping the spell list, your reducing its tier already by reducing flexibility. The main difference is it sufficient to drop it below 1, and if I'm understanding correctly, your looking at a half dozen spells per level, then yes your gimping to below Tier 1 based solely on the lack of flexibility.

You misread me. I specifically said I DON'T want "the wizard needs this to stay at Tier 1" spells on the list. I'm perfectly okay with the Wizard coming out at Tier 5 if that's how it goes.

[ZamielVanWeber]

In other words, you're writing what's essential for a high-op game. My games are NOT high-op, and items like this are not common.

The game assumes you have access to the +2/+4/+6 stat items and, eventually, the tomes/manuals. It is not high-op to have them; it can be risky for the players not to except against the most brain dead of enemies.

[Gnoman]

I very rarely use monsters at all, and the NPCs that serve as opponents are built with the same restrictions the PCs have.

[ericgrau]

Just spamming one versatile BFC spell like wall of force could make a wizard viable. Maybe you should specify what kind of theme you are going for. Like maybe on each level you want one spell of each school or 1 BFC, 1 damage, 1 buff, 1 debuff, etc.

[Telok]

My minimum list for D&D to be D&D-like is:
Animate Dead, Atonement, Bless Water, Break Enchantment, Concecrate, Create Undead (and Greater), Cure X Wounds, Curse Water, Death Ward, Desecrate, Detect X, Dimensional Anchor OR Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel X, Divination, Dominate Monster, Fireball, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Hallow, Harm, Haste, Heal, Hold X, Identify, Inflict X Wounds, Invisibility X, Legend Lore, Light, Lightning Bolt, Magic Circle, Magic Weapon, Magic Missile, Major Image, Neutralize Poison, Nondetection, Permanency, Planar Binding, Polymorph Any Object, Prismatic Spray, Protection From X, Raise Dead, Read Magic, Reincarnate, Remove X, Restoration, Scrying, See Invisible, Silence, Silent Image, Slay Living, Slow, Summon X, Symbol of X, Telekinesis, Teleport, Tongues, Trap the Soul, True Seeing, Unhallow, Wall of X, Water Breathing, Web, Wind Wall.

My minimum to play a magic user is:
Atonement, Bless Water, Break Enchantment, Cure X Wounds, Curse Water, Death Ward, Detect X, Dimensional Anchor OR Dimensional Lock, Disintegrate, Dispel X, Divination, Fireball, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Hallow, Harm, Haste, Heal, Inflict X Wounds, Invisibility X, Legend Lore, Light, Lightning Bolt, Magic Circle vs X, Magic Weapon, Magic Missile, Major Image, Neutralize Poison, Nondetection, Protection From X, Raise Dead, Read Magic, Reincarnate, Remove X, Restoration, Scrying, See Invisible, Silence, Silent Image, Slow, Tongues, True Seeing, Wall of X, Water Breathing.

Fix, Learn, Conceal, Enable, Disable, Destroy.

[Coidzor]

Interesting question. :smallsmile: I was just considering what it might be like for Wizards and Sorcerers to have a guaranteed spell list of a certain size guaranteeing that they're not T6, even if they never got any magic other than their automatic spell-tree and then having a greatly reduced ability to pick their own spells known beyond the minimum, in the case of sorcerers, or hunt down/research spells for wizards.