Don't touch that Larry... What did I tell you?

[lytokk]

So, if any of you aren't familiar with the reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6vXH1LCvo

My wife loves this little clip and is wanting to try and do something like this for an upcoming game. Problem is, necromancy is evil and she'll be adventuring with a paladin of freedom. Now, some of this can be adjusted with fluff, which I would and have done some for other players, so I don't see this favoritism, which is always a paranoia of mine when it comes to running games with my wife involved.

Considering the world was on the brink of being overrun by the creatures of the abyss, it make sense that certain taboos would be abandoned, like say the creation of undead. It may have been practiced for such a long time that the spells themselves changed and certain undead created by a certain group of people don't even ping as evil anymore. At least that's how I'd fluff it to fit in the world. The bodies are always from volunteers, and the spells have progressed to the point that some of the personality of the original person can exhibit itself from time to time.

I'm wondering if anyone else has done this kind of refluff at some point? If so, what rule changes did you make regarding turning undead for these differently aligned undead? Would you make it bolster the undead instead? Or just use the same rulings as before.

Any recomendations of a class for something like this? something with a simple refluff? Maybe a prestige class?

[Red Fel]

Easiest refluff? Necromancy is not inherently Evil. Bam, done.

This is a fairly common complaint on these boards - apart from "ooh, creepy skeletons," and "wait a minute, that's my mum," there's really no justification for Necromancy to be inherently Evil. Negative Energy isn't inherently Evil, and mindless creatures are incapable of moral decision. There's an argument to be made that Necromancy is no more evil than throwing fireballs, or creating golems, or any number of other things magic can do.

So make a more general concept of Necromancy. Necromancy isn't Evil, but it's dangerous. If you stick to non-reproducing Undead, and only use them for Good or Neutral purposes, there's no Evil. (Of course, if you trigger the Wightocalypse, that's another issue.)

Necromancy being Evil is an arbitrary rule. If you want, as DM, you can change it.

[paperarmor]

Paladins really only care about evil not non good so Dread Necromancer would work great for a 1-20 build. If you don't use Heroes of Horror, since Unearthed arcana is allowed there's a Necromancer wizard variant in there that lets them take a skeleton as a familiar and voila!

Necromancy isn't evil per se as there are Necro spells with the [Good] tag just say the spirits she raises want to be raised to fight evil etc.

[NNescio]

Easiest refluff? Necromancy is not inherently Evil. Bam, done.

This is a fairly common complaint on these boards - apart from "ooh, creepy skeletons," and "wait a minute, that's my mum," there's really no justification for Necromancy to be inherently Evil. Negative Energy isn't inherently Evil, and mindless creatures are incapable of moral decision. There's an argument to be made that Necromancy is no more evil than throwing fireballs, or creating golems, or any number of other things magic can do.

So make a more general concept of Necromancy. Necromancy isn't Evil, but it's dangerous. If you stick to non-reproducing Undead, and only use them for Good or Neutral purposes, there's no Evil. (Of course, if you trigger the Wightocalypse, that's another issue.)

Necromancy being Evil is an arbitrary rule. If you want, as DM, you can change it.

There's the whole 'resurrection-blocking' component of creating undead. Even True Rez can't get around that, despite being capable of creating a brand new body. This seems to suggest that Create Undead spells do something funny with the soul, so, ah... definitely evil.

The DM is free to change the rules to fit the setting though.

[lytokk]

If I was to remove the fear aura, familiar and the negative energy burst from the dread necromancer, would that balance out having a necromancer variant wizard's skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants)? Maybe the rebuke undead ability as well, though perhaps not. I want to keep this little variant balanced as to what the normal dread necromancer would be, but I've never seen one in action.

[Hamste]

You can actually ressurect some one raised as undead as long as you destroy it first. You can not use raise dead however. This seems to just suggest the soul is stuck in with the undead and destroying the undead destroys the corpse enough it can't be targeted.

[Red Fel]

Ooh, I've got one! I remember now!

Magic of Incarnum had Necrocarnum, which was a great way to control some potent Undead. It was also disgustingly Evil.

But it also had a Good adaptation, called Vivicarnum, which basically means you're using this whole "mystical potential life of yet-unborn souls" to power your terrifying shambling corpses.

That's a thing, right?

[lytokk]

Thinking more about making this class work. Taking my above changes to dread necromancer, and instead of being able to cast any spell from their spell list without preparation, have them select spells as a sorceror would, using their spells known table, but being able to choose from the DN spell list or the sorceror spell list.

Since this is an organization I'm adding to my campaign world, I don't see a problem actually making this class 1-20, but I want to keep it in the t3-4 range. While I don't think these changes would drop it below 4, I'm afraid that with the sorceror spell selection, its going to bring this class into T2 territory.

I want to give the class some blasting options, and the DN spell list seems to be more touch attacks. Maybe instead of sorceror, the warmage spells that would fit into either cold or acid? I like the DN's progression to become a lich, which would fit with this class refluff.

Thoughts?

[ZamielVanWeber]

If I was to remove the fear aura, familiar and the negative energy burst from the dread necromancer, would that balance out having a necromancer variant wizard's skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants)? Maybe the rebuke undead ability as well, though perhaps not. I want to keep this little variant balanced as to what the normal dread necromancer would be, but I've never seen one in action.

Dear lord no. As a DN I would never make that trade. Fear Aura is useful sometimes and that familiar selection is how. I would recommend use a watered down version of the Death Master's feature. The skeleton will be reasonably powerful then and since no one is likely to play Death Master in your game they won't complain about this one time only change.

Edit: Sorcerer is T2 mostly because of its spells. By giving them access to sorcerer spells you have just made a better sorcerer, a sorcerer with class features. Stick to small changes to the dread necromancer. You will also need to adjudicate if DN 20 gives the lich template or not. By RAW is does not.

[the_david]

Well, there is the Deathless type from Eberron, as well as the Create Deathless and Create Greater Deathless spells.

Deathless are undead, except that they are not evil and are created by positive energy, instead of Negative energy.

Create Deathless is a 6th level domain spell though, so at Cleric level 11 it comes a bit late in the game. You could always have a Wizard research a similar spell.

[lytokk]

My intention is to try and make this a refluff and retool of DN that makes it more friendly. Not user friendly mind you, I mean less likely to cause the villagers to grab the torches and pitchforks friendly. Instead of the DN familiar, you get an undead companion. If destroyed, the companion can be reformed the next day. So basically, the class comes with a free fighter, while you get to sit back, and either debuff enemies, buff your companion, or blast with some cold or acid. At level 20 you've finished your crossing into udeath and become a lich. Class would be restricted to N or G, and you'll never be able to create self-replicating undead (wights or vampires). This is what I'm thinking of making.

Should I move this over to homebrew?

Maybe a 10 level prestige class more akin to dragon disciple would fit this concept better.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The Death Master's undead buddy is exactly that. If it dies it is replaced 24 hours later (1 hour later at higher levels). It advances slightly worse than the wizard's on the HD front, better on the nat armor, none on the Str and Dex, but instead gets fun abilities and the right to pick from a bigger list (similar to druid) and it costs no money to use.

Now that I think about it, the Death Master would actually work well with some refluffing. Remove the "evil only" and "power drawn from orcus" and you get lots of undead creation spells, rebuke, class features, a decent offensive spell list (she will need items to stay defensive). The only oddities are only getting Protection From/Dispel/Magic Circle against Good, which you can make all four, and only getting Blasphemy and Word of Chaos and you can jut add the other two.

Call it Death Master because adherents study undeath to learn to free themselves from the bonds of death and make it a mostly N class. (Sadly the only N undeath deity is Evening Glory, but she's cool. Hell, she could be their new sponsor).

[lytokk]

The death master you're talking about is from the Dragon Compendium correct? I think the undead minon progresses as I would like, but I will need to make a few changes. Probably change it to a sorceror spell progression, give it some blasty options... hmm... some sort of hybrid of DM and DN would work for what I'm going for. The class would have to be naturally charismatic in order to avoid the torches and pitchforks I stated. Will have to work on this idea a little more over the weekend and see what people think. Perhaps some of the summon undead spells

[Honest Tiefling]

Would a construct work, or would that not be Larry enough? I don't know of any construct controlling classes, but there has to be one somewhere.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Because of the way they squished it in the Death Master's spell list is a bit anemic, but you can fluff it with stuff from extra books easily enough and switch it from Int/Wizard progression to Cha/Sorc progression easily enough.

Edit: Effigy Master lets you make constructs (effigies to be exact) but I don't think you could get skeletal one. Note the intelligent undead from death master's list could in theory pull a "Don't Larry" if the DM is feeling silly (and only if).

[lytokk]

Because of the way they squished it in the Death Master's spell list is a bit anemic, but you can fluff it with stuff from extra books easily enough and switch it from Int/Wizard progression to Cha/Sorc progression easily enough.

Edit: Effigy Master lets you make constructs (effigies to be exact) but I don't think you could get skeletal one. Note the intelligent undead from death master's list could in theory pull a "Don't Larry" if the DM is feeling silly (and only if).

I think I'm going to put in a gradual lichdom progression as there is in the dread necromancer class, so that its not all at once. Probably drop the hit die down to 6, maybe slow the BAB progression, throw in some blasty spells and call it done. I don't know if I want to make the list small enough so that the class can cast any spell from the list without preparation, or large enough so that spell selection or spell prep is required. I may also increase the progression of the minion from the printed animal companion like progression and more to that of the necromancer variant.

Also will make him slightly intelligent, 4-6. The skeleton will be a free spirit, lacking the intelligence it possessed in life, but still with enough to know what it is. Also, less controlled. There will be many "Don't Larry's" in this game.

[Honest Tiefling]

A suggestion? Perhaps a mix of the two approaches. The Arcanist from Pathfinder can prepare a very limited selection of spells, but expends spell slots to cast them. So they could theoretically prepare 3 but use all of their slots recasting the same one. I dunno what your wife prefers, but I am leaning to blaster of some sort. I assume splicing in some eldritch blast for a no nonsense approach to blasty blasty fun time is going to be too complicated.

Also, what if the idea that Larry came back voluntarily? What if he was a lost soul causing mayhem until bound by a cage of bone to be (somewhat) helpful? Its probably a better move then letting him wander around causing trouble, especially if something about a ghost causes mental degradation and immense pain to the point where he might become dangerously insane. He could have a mission to complete which is why he never left the world, or...He simply cannot go to the afterlife. It is skeleton or an (un)life of misery and eventual insanity.

[lytokk]

A suggestion? Perhaps a mix of the two approaches. The Arcanist from Pathfinder can prepare a very limited selection of spells, but expends spell slots to cast them. So they could theoretically prepare 3 but use all of their slots recasting the same one. I dunno what your wife prefers, but I am leaning to blaster of some sort. I assume splicing in some eldritch blast for a no nonsense approach to blasty blasty fun time is going to be too complicated.

Also, what if the idea that Larry came back voluntarily? What if he was a lost soul causing mayhem until bound by a cage of bone to be (somewhat) helpful? Its probably a better move then letting him wander around causing trouble, especially if something about a ghost causes mental degradation and immense pain to the point where he might become dangerously insane. He could have a mission to complete which is why he never left the world, or...He simply cannot go to the afterlife. It is skeleton or an (un)life of misery and eventual insanity.

Part of this class is that it's going to have a code of conduct. The class is only allowed to create undead from willing sentient creatures. For the purposes of this, I'm limiting the conduct to sentient creatures, otherwise the character would rarely ever be able to get permission to have more than the one. The Larry is a volunteer, usually someone of significance who would have a protective instinct toward the character. Example, a father dying of some disease and wants to be around to protect his daughter. He petitions the organization who performs the ritual, binding the undead to the character, and then the organization raises the daughter, with the undead always around. They typically have a goofy personality in order to keep the spirits of the character high while learning to channel the negative energy without succumbing to the evil normally associated with the negative energy plane.

Wow, this stuff kinda writes itself.

[The Glyphstone]

There's the whole 'resurrection-blocking' component of creating undead. Even True Rez can't get around that, despite being capable of creating a brand new body. This seems to suggest that Create Undead spells do something funny with the soul, so, ah... definitely evil.

The DM is free to change the rules to fit the setting though.

Except messing with a soul isn't inherently evil, otherwise Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm) - a spell that does absolutely nothing except prevent resurrection - would be [Evil].

Hey look, D&D is inconsistent in its morality. Whoda thunk it.

[lytokk]

Here's what I've got so far. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oB4neeQHcfqOIR3jgdLQcAQ0xvfOS1-5jULJsCgjVSI/edit?usp=sharing)

Any feedback would be appreciated. Working on the spell list now.