/DSP Path of War: Chimera base class (BETA)

[Snowbluff]

Forward

This is an idea I've been mulling over for the last couple of weeks. Right now, it's only barely playable. The purpose is to create a class with two very distinct fighting styles, similiar to a d20 druid without Natural Spell or a 4e Druid. I've been trying to crunch these very different mechanics together while giving it powerful, interesting, and qualitative abilities. It'll take a bit of work to get it finished. I don't even have a table yet. However, I'd thought I'd throw it out there to see what you guys think.

The name chimera was chosen for it's dual meaning. A chimera is both an illusory creature representing an impossible goal and one made of different genetic materials. The chimeras work tirelessly to better themselves, and at the same time will often end up looking like a mish mash of creatures.


Things to do
1) Finish skills and proficiencies.
2) Increase number of innovations, focusing on a variety of recovery mechanics. Potentially increase expospeak and technobabble gags. Taking suggestions.
3) Archetypes: Wild Dreamer (Wildshaper), Astral Evolutionist (Fused Eidolon, uses Evolution point spells), Nightmare Weaver (Undead and fear focus, Black Seraph), and Theologian (Domain abilities).
4) Favored Class Bonuses.
5) Vocalize fluff. Basically, these guys transform to understand others for introspection.
6) Chimera Specific Feats. For example, Extra Innovation, Smiting Appropriation.

Chimera

Drawn to the mystery and wonder of the dreaming world, Chimeras are shapeshifting philosophers who channel both magical and physical forces in combat.

BAB: 3/4
HD: d8
Good saves: Fort, Will
Skill Points: 4 + Int per level.
Class Skills: As Druid (will be receiving personalized skills)
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As Druid

Spellcasting: 6/9. Spontaneous. Divine. Summoner spells know and spells per day progression. Draws spells from the druid list. Wisdom is casting stat. Spell slots recover at Midnight.

(The final version will have a dedicated spell list. I will not be giving any spell level discounts on it, but I’ll be sure to include some good control spells.)

Change Shape (Su): The Chimera has the ability to change his form on a whim. Using this ability takes a move action. This ability acts as Minor Metamorphosis, which is treated as being augmented with a number of points equal to his Chimera levels. At level 7, it is treated as Metamorphosis. At level 14, it is treated as Major Metamorphosis. A Chimera may not cast spells using his Chimera spell slots while using this ability.

Dismissing this ability's effect is a move action.

(I’ll include alternate change shape abilities that mimic Fused Eidolon and Wildshape as archetypes. I am unsure how to word it so it remains compatible with future innovations. Perhaps I’ll add “This ability counts as Change Shape for determining innovations and effects.”

As an aside, this needs a rule that gives the augmentations as you level. Consider it a PLA/SLA until I hammer it out with an expert on psionics.)

Domain (Su): At second level , the Chimera selects a domain. A Chimera may cast spells from that Domain.

(Design Note: This is me “future proofing” a class. If a new spell is written and added to a domain, a chimera can take the spell without me having to change the class. I’ll work on a possible Innovation to grant spells known. I’m not sure if aim happy with the class gaining the domain abilities. I feel like it already has enough going on. They may only gain the spells in the final version. An archetype may gain the domain abilities.)


Innovations: At first level, and at every third level, a Chimera may select one Innovation from the Chimera Innovation List.

(The signature abilities of a Chimera. These will determine a major portion of a Chimera’s fighting style. Currently, the idea is that a Chimera will use an innovation for a recovery mechanic.)

Maneuvers: A Chimera gains access to a set of maneuvers while using his Change Shape Ability. The Chimera uses wisdom as his primary initiator modifier, and the saves of his maneuvers are equal to 10 + Maneuver Level + Wisdom Modifier.

While he cannot not use most of his maneuvers granted by this class while not transformed by Change Shape, he may use his Stances. A Chimera draw maneuvers from the Cursed Razor, Steel Serpent, Thrashing Dragon, and Veiled Moon schools.

Maneuvers Readied:

A Chimera starts with the ability to ready up to six of his maneuvers. The number of maneuvers he may ready increases by one for every 4 Chimera levels he has.

A Chimera readies his maneuvers by meditating for ten minutes.

In order to recover maneuvers, a Chimera spends a full rounds action daydreaming.

Maneuvers Known: (As Warlord)





Innovations

Repurpose Tissue: As a full round action, the Chimera may consume the corpse of a Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Animal, Magic Beast, Plant or Fey creature to heal himself while using Change Shape. The amount healed is 1d6 for every 2 Chimera levels he has. He may use this ability on any given body once. At 10th level, this destroys the body.

Natural Metamorphose: The Chimera’s Change Shape ability becomes a Extraordinary ability, and is no longer treated as a Supernatural one.

Memetic Combat (Ex): While activating Change Shape ability, the Chimera may choose one combat feat that he meats the perquisites for. While the Change Shape effect persists, he is treated as having that Feat.

Magical Enervation (Su): A Chimera with this ability may expend spell slots as a swift action to recovery maneuvers. He may expend as many spell slot levels equal to his hit die. When he does, he may recover that many maneuver levels of expended Maneuvers.

Appropriate Energy (Sp): A Chimera may dispel magical effects on creatures as a Standard Action. This acts as a targeted Dispel Magic, except the range is touch. If the Dispel Check is successful and a spell is dispelled, he may replenish an expended spell slot of a level one lower than the level of the dispelled spell. The Chimera may use this ability (3 + his Wisdom Modifier) times per day.

Hypertheurgy: The chimera selects a number of his Chimera Spell slots equal to his wisdom modifier. These spell slots are treated as one level higher, but may only be used to casts spells of the slot’s original level. This ability may be reassigned to different slots when the Chimera replenishes his spell slots each day.
Prerequisite: Chimera Level 5.

Divine Innervation: The Chimera may cast spells from his Domain while under the effect of Change Shape.

Bonus Feat: The Chimera may take a bonus feat from the Chimera Bonus Feat list, a Combat Feat, or a Metamagic Feat.

Mana Desublimation: The Chimera may alter a maneuver with the effect of a metamagic feat. In order to do this, he must take a free action to expend a spell slot of a level equal to the metamagic feat’s slot adjustment.

[Snowbluff]

Favored Class Bonuses:

Archetypes:

Astral Evolutionist

Fused Eidolon: This acts as the Synthesist Summoner ability, except for the following:
• The Chimera may not cast spells from his Chimera spell slots while fused with his eidolon.
• The Chimera may use maneuvers while fused with his eidolon.
• For determing the effects of Chimera Innovations, Feats, and other abilities, this ability count's as a Chimera's Change Shape.

This ability replaces Change Shape.

Spells:
The Chimera adds Lesser Evolution Surge, Evolution Surge, and Great Evolution Surge to his spells known.

This ability replaces Domain.

Theologian


Domain: A theologian gains the domain powers of his chosen domain, using his Chimera level as his Cleric level.

This alters the Domain ability.

Innovations: A Theologian must choose Divine Innervation as his first Innovation. He only gains Innovations every 4 levels, rather than every 3.

This alters the Innovation ability.

[stack]

What are the maneuvers known and stances progressions? Are the maneuver levels capped?

[Snowbluff]

What are the maneuvers known and stances progressions? Are the maneuver levels capped?

Still trying to decide how this is going to work. Since I don't have a table yet, I'd have to convey it via text. I think they should have the one maneuver per maneuver level, like warblade or warlord. Being an otherwise strong class means that it should have a lot of maneuvers know like a swordsage. Substitute warlord's known maneuvers and stances in the meantime, if you want to playtest it.

Maneuvers are capped by Initiator level... actually, does PoW require text for that in the class description?

[stack]

As for standard text, I would just copy from an existing class. I wasn't sure if you wanted to cap maneuver level like the various non-initiator class archetypes do, given that you also have 6th level spells. 6th level spells/powers and 9th level maneuvers is pretty strong, though the pathwalker psywar can do it by taking advanced study a few times.

[Snowbluff]

As for standard text, I would just copy from an existing class.
Yeah, probably.

I wasn't sure if you wanted to cap maneuver level like the various non-initiator class archetypes do, given that you also have 6th level spells. 6th level spells/powers and 9th level maneuvers is pretty strong, though the pathwalker psywar can do it by taking advanced study a few times.
Yeah, you just made the case as why it would be this way. You can't use your spells in concert with your maneuvers anyway, and the finished spell list would be mostly control based ones, so it won't be you going CoDzilla then metamorphing into uberinitiator.

[upho]

As for standard text, I would just copy from an existing class. I wasn't sure if you wanted to cap maneuver level like the various non-initiator class archetypes do, given that you also have 6th level spells. 6th level spells/powers and 9th level maneuvers is pretty strong, though the pathwalker psywar can do it by taking advanced study a few times.Not to mention PrCs such as the battle templar and bladecaster (9th level spells + 8th level maneuvers) or mage hunter (6th level spells and 9th level maneuvers + full CL and IL) - pretty impressive even without Advanced Study. Being PrCs, they of course trade away much progression in the base class(es) and may have some otherwise pretty useless prereqs. But for example, a cleric/warder battle templar doesn't have to give up much besides less MADness and two caster levels. Most importantly, they get action economy combos for their strongest class features, sort of the opposite of being forced to choose between either "spell-mode" or "maneuver-mode" as the chimera is.


You can't use your spells in concert with your maneuvers anyway, and the finished spell list would be mostly control based ones, so it won't be you going CoDzilla then metamorphing into uberinitiator.
Yeah, provided the chimera's cast/fight division can be maintained and their spell list is relatively weak on buffs, as planned, I don't think full maneuver progression and 6/9 casting would be OP. It could certainly open up for great, interesting and unusual versatility, but I don't see how the casting could result in nearly as much raw power as certain existing caster/initiator combos are capable of. Hmm... Sounds like the chimera actually could become a "3e druid lite" - great versatility and BFC potential, but none of the silly 7+ spell nukes or melee overkill wildshapes. That would be really sweet. Is this something you're deliberately aiming at?

Speaking of the cast/fight division, as currently written, it seems to me the standard action required for Change Shape excludes a chimera build which mixes rounds of BFC casting and rounds initiating maneuvers in combat. Or did you intend to reduce the action required in later levels?

Also, seeing that the chimera uses metamorphosis, do you have any ideas on how to circumvent the "deathclaw" problem? Judging from my recent experiences with Keledrath's Mutant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397272-Base-Class-The-Mutant-(I-Wanna-be-an-Eidolon!)) and my own Wrathblood bloodrager archetype (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370168-Wrathblood-a-T3-quot-monster-quot-bloodrager-archetype-PEACH!), and as you probably already are well aware of, extra limitations are needed when combining inherent access to Thrashing Dragon and especially Broken Blade with inherent access to extra natural attacks.

Without class-specific limitations, by 7th level, a chimera could easily have no less than 7 accurate claw attacks (2 race, 2 metamorphosis, 2 Broken blade stance, 1 haste), 5 of which deals 4d8+lots each. By adding FCT and sacrificing 2 IL and CL for a MoMS dip with free style feats, the chimera can easily end up as a pretty stupidly OP charge monster with a damage potential far beyond that of any PoW class. At 15th level, you could be looking at more than 10 claws, each at 8d8 + 2 x str and x 1.5 Power Attack, in a Pummeling Charge, which basically guarantees a huge crit resulting in more than enough average DPR to easily one-shot the tarrasque. That's in addition to for example fast healing 5 and +6 natural armor from metamorphosis, and various other benefits from maneuvers, spells etc. And an archetype that grants access to evos in addition to the chimera's Change Shape has of course an even greater risk of producing a ridiculously broken deathclaw.

Maybe simply cap the max number of natural attacks the chimera can make per turn, regardless of source (haste, maneuvers, race, whatever), to 2 at 1st level, increasing by +1 every 3rd level (4th, 7th, 10th aso)?

Btw, as you might have understood by now, I LOVE the concept! :smallbiggrin: Please make it happen!

[Snowbluff]

Hmm... Sounds like the chimera actually could become a "3e druid lite" - great versatility and BFC potential, but none of the silly 7+ spell nukes or melee overkill wildshapes. That would be really sweet. Is this something you're deliberately aiming at? Yep.


Speaking of the cast/fight division, as currently written, it seems to me the standard action required for Change Shape excludes a chimera build which mixes rounds of BFC casting and rounds initiating maneuvers in combat. Or did you intend to reduce the action required in later levels?
I'm planning on lowering the time to move action, but also limiting it to once per round.


Maybe simply cap the max number of natural attacks the chimera can make per turn, regardless of source (haste, maneuvers, race, whatever), to half level (max 2 at 1st level)?
I'm probably going to be uber lame and just make it so their natural attacks don't stack with ones from other sources while metamorphed. That way you don't morph into a bear and then grow 6 more claws. I'll think about.

[stack]

I'm afraid I don't see how metamorphosis gives an excessive number of natural attacks. Major gives three and the call-out explicitly prevents them form stacking with other options. You aren't granted any extra limbs, so without extra limbs I don't see how you can stack with other sources either. My understanding is that you are not allowed to use more than one attack per limb, though I don't have a citation handy.

[Snowbluff]

You aren't granted any extra limbs, so without extra limbs I don't see how you can stack with other sources either.

This is what I would like to say, but I don't have a citation, either. :smallfrown:

[Thealtruistorc]

This class strikes me as interesting, and I certainly like the idea of a shapechanging initiator class. However, I question why it doesn't have access to broken blade, as well as why it doesn,t qualify for druid feats.

It reminds me of a class on the old DSP forums that I created called the morphic, but since that one seems to be stuck in approval purgatory I'd be glad to send you the salvage for ideas.

[Snowbluff]

This class strikes me as interesting, and I certainly like the idea of a shapechanging initiator class. However, I question why it doesn't have access to broken blade, as well as why it doesn,t qualify for druid feats.

It reminds me of a class on the old DSP forums that I created called the morphic, but since that one seems to be stuck in approval purgatory I'd be glad to send you the salvage for ideas.

"Qualify for Druid feats."
What? That's entirely contrary to the class. I don't want Natural Spell as an option.

The idea is 4e Druid, or 3.x druid w/out Natural Spell, but has interesting options while meleeing.

I'll consider adding Broken Blade.

[upho]

I'm afraid I don't see how metamorphosis gives an excessive number of natural attacks. Major gives three and the call-out explicitly prevents them form stacking with other options. You aren't granted any extra limbs, so without extra limbs I don't see how you can stack with other sources either. My understanding is that you are not allowed to use more than one attack per limb, though I don't have a citation handy.No citation needed, I've seen it. And AFAIK, you would be absolutely correct in every case of "you gain # [natural] attack(s)" I can think of, except metamorphosis (there might be other similar psi powers I don't know of though). The reason being that metamorphosis, by itself, explicitly does not follow the standard rules for natural attacks at all and would not work if it did:

By default, a medium creature's claws has an 1d4 damage die, while the claws of metamorphosis has an 1d8 or even 2d6 damage die, which is probably a larger die than that of any medium creature's natural attack found in a Paizo bestiary. Neither does the damage die size of metamorphosis' natural attack(s) scale with size categories according to the table for natural attacks by size (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Table:-Natural-Attacks-by-Size) (or the Improved Natural Attack feat or standard weapon size rules, for that matter).
A humanoid PC with two arms and two legs cannot normally have more than two claw attacks without FCT + flurry (it has been explicitly called out by the Paizo devs that humanoid PC feet cannot be used for claw attacks) - metamorphosis gives you three, saying absolutely nothing about requiring an additional arm or not being able to use wielded weapons or existing natural attacks in the same turn.
A humanoid PC with one head cannot normally have more than one bite attack (without FCT + flurry) - again, metamorphosis gives you three, saying absolutely nothing about requiring additional heads, mouths or even teeth.

Also, I think the fluff of metamorphosis also describes a power quite different from other options which say "you gain # [natural] attack(s)", but have more in common with spells like transmogrify or evolution surge - like a beast shape type of polymorph spell with the option to "fully or partially transform into whatever creature(s) you like using options (size/attacks/stat bonuses/etc) from these menus (A, B, C)":

"You channel your psionic power, snapping bones and twisting flesh, transforming yourself into a new shape or form. You can take the form of any creature of the same size as yourself, but this is a purely cosmetic change, your abilities, powers or stats do not change beyond the options selected below." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis)

In my view, this means the power may certainly include growing additional limbs, but the only mechanical benefit of such an extra limb is the additional natural attack it provides. EDIT: And it does explicitly say "your abilities, powers or stats do not change beyond the options selected", which I find difficult to interpret into any meaning other than "whatever limbs and associated attacks you already have will remain"./EDIT: Also, isn't the "call-out explicitly prevents them form stacking with other options" referring to other options listed in within metamorphosis? It seems to be an example to illustrate that you cannot stack two versions (A, B or C) of the same option:

"For example, you cannot pick to gain two natural attacks from abilities menu B and also to gain a natural attack from abilities menu A to get three attacks."

Except indirectly through the use of enhancement bonuses in the stat increase options, as far as I can see the power doesn't say anything at all about the stacking of options granted by anything other than metamorphosis itself (like race/ability/spell/item/whatever), and definitely nothing specifically about stacking natural attacks from sources other than metamorphosis.

EDIT:Please let me know if I'm missing something vital here./EDIT:


I'm planning on lowering the time to move action, but also limiting it to once per round.If you limit it to 1/round, I think you should be able reduce the action needed further, either automatically by gaining levels or through optional features or feats. Maybe it should even be possible to Change Shape as a free action, like the 4e druid's similarly limited wildshape.


I'm probably going to be uber lame and just make it so their natural attacks don't stack with ones from other sources while metamorphed. That way you don't morph into a bear and then grow 6 more claws. I'll think about.Well, that'll at least prevent stacking with natural attacks from stuff that grants them. But unless "other sources" not only refers to options which grant natural attacks in the first place, but also to options which allows the attacks to be made more than once in the same turn, this won't do anything about the approximately 3-5 extra natural attacks the chimera can get from maneuvers, stances and spells (such as broken blade stance and haste). In which case the chimera will remain a "deathclaw" class, able to produce an 8 claw attacks charge monster which I guess will still able to easily one-shot the tarrasque at 15th level. And if you do refer to such options for repeating attacks, how does the chimera ever get more than three natural attacks?

[Snowbluff]

Well, that'll at least prevent stacking with natural attacks from stuff that grants them. But unless "other sources" not only refers to options which grant natural attacks in the first place, but also to options which allows the attacks to be made more than once in the same turn, this won't do anything about the approximately 3-5 extra natural attacks the chimera can get from maneuvers, stances and spells (such as broken blade stance and haste). In which case the chimera will remain a "deathclaw" class, able to produce an 8 claw attacks charge monster which I guess will still able to easily one-shot the tarrasque at 15th level. And if you do refer to such options for repeating attacks, how does the chimera ever get more than three natural attacks?
Um... you're poor grasp of the psionics rules. :smalltongue:

At 15th level, the Chimera would be using Greater Metamorphosis. That means he will have 3 attacks, as per the rules of the power that state if he can't stack natural attacks from the power. Even if he wanted to, he only have 4 points of augmentation. I actually don't need to change anything, because the class can only grant up to 3 attack from it.

Except all of the Temp HP. I'd have to figure that out.

[upho]

Um... you're poor grasp of the psionics rules. :smalltongue:

At 15th level, the Chimera would be using Greater Metamorphosis. That means he will have 3 attacks, as per the rules of the power that state if he can't stack natural attacks from the power. Even if he wanted to, he only have 4 points of augmentation. I actually don't need to change anything, because the class can only grant up to 3 attack from it.Eh.. Now I don't follow you... Yes, greater metamorphosis can only grant three attacks, ever. Those aren't the problem, really. It's the ability to repeat those attacks, gained through stuff like haste and broken blade stance, giving the chimera 6 or more full bab attacks per full attack action.


Except all of the Temp HP. I'd have to figure that out.Yeah, you might need to look into that as well.

Otherwise, I think using metamorphosis is a good idea.

[Snowbluff]

Eh.. Now I don't follow you... Yes, greater metamorphosis can only grant three attacks, ever. Those aren't the problem, really. It's the ability to repeat those attacks, gained through stuff like haste and broken blade stance, giving the chimera 6 or more full bab attacks per full attack action.


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. Well, I don't know Broken Blade, but it doesn't benefit a whole lot with Haste, and it'd be more of a problem with other classes, like druid or summoner. As far as I am concerned, that's a problem with Broken Blade, and not one with my class. As that is outside of the scope of Chimera class itself, it's not really something I can fix, or care to.

EDIT: Broken Blade Stance also only gives a single attack. I'm waiting to be wowed.

[upho]

Well, I don't know Broken Blade, but it doesn't benefit a whole lot with Haste, and it'd be more of a problem with other classes, like druid or summoner. As far as I am concerned, that's a problem with Broken Blade, and not one with my class. As that is outside of the scope of Chimera class itself, it's not really something I can fix, or care to.Perhaps you're right. I think especially the crit-piling effect of Pummeling Style is horribly bad design, and the chimera's certainly not responsible for that.

But, what's really broken is the combo of monk (Pummeling Charge, Horn of the Criosphinx), FCT, and as many natural attacks of one type as possible with a charge, boosted with an improved crit range and as many damage die size increases as possible. And of course, the usually most limited component is the number of natural attacks of a singe type, as most classes cannot access more than two (three with haste) by default, and has to pay a lot for PoW maneuvers and/or additional limbs or additional FCT:ed natural attacks to boost their Pummeling Charge. Meaning the chimera, which has native access to both a higher-than-normal number of natural attacks of one type and PoW maneuvers, is in a quite unique position to exploit this combo.

Don't really see how a druid or an eidolon can top this, but of course a synth (gargantuan size, silly high str and 6 native natural attacks at 14th) can make this combo way more broken than any other class, including the chimera. (Though such a synth would have to pay three feats just for broken blade stance, and I assume you don't want the chimera to be anyway nearly as flawed and easily broken as the synth anyway.) Perhaps a high level stalker might be worse than the chimera as well, but since Pummeling Style is incompatible with most (all?) strikes I doubt it.


EDIT: Broken Blade Stance also only gives a single attack. I'm waiting to be wowed.Considering it says:

"While in this stance, the initiator... /snip/ ...may make an additional attack when making a full attack action. If the initiator is two weapon fighting, he gains this extra attack for both hands." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/broken-blade-maneuvers/broken-blade-stance)

...I assume a chimera using two hands for monk unarmed strikes would indeed gain two additional attacks, not one. What am I missing here?

Maybe I should put together a couple of simple builds for comparisons, also allowing you to more easily spot if I'm doing something wrong or questionable rules-wise?

EDIT: Just realized that my worries regarding the chimera are rather misplaced in a game using DSPs psionic material, since such a game would include access to Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins) (constant 7 pp metamorphosis). Meaning many classes are actually considerably more capable of abusing the above combo than the chimera. :smallredface: Please ignore my previous whining and carry on with this great idea! /EDIT

[Snowbluff]

EDIT: Just realized that my worries regarding the chimera are rather misplaced in a game using DSPs psionic material, since such a game would include access to Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins) (constant 7 pp metamorphosis). Meaning many classes are actually considerably more capable of abusing the above combo than the chimera. :smallredface: Please ignore my previous whining and carry on with this great idea! /EDIT

Dude, almost everything about the analysis is wrong. The Chimera doesn't even have Broken Blade, so he would have to spend feats on it, too. TWF sucks a lot when comboed with nat attacks, because they lose their primary status, and then would enjoy a -2 penalty in addition to the -5 and half of the strength to damage.

Also, Skin of Proteus isn't nearly as strong as it was. I'm still bewildered as to why the Chimera would hear an inkling of any of this.

[upho]

This is getting OT and don't wanna derail this thread anymore than I already have. I've started a thread in the 3e/3.5e/d20 forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409345-Dreamscarred-Pummeling-Deathclaw-does-this-bloodrager-monk-warlord-build-even-work) which poses the relevant questions and would like your input. Feel free to use my responses in the spoiler section below as a starting point.


Dude, almost everything about the analysis is wrong. The Chimera doesn't even have Broken Blade, so he would have to spend feats on it, too.Martial Tradition.


TWF sucks a lot when comboed with nat attacks, because they lose their primary status, and then would enjoy a -2 penalty in addition to the -5 and half of the strength to damage.Why would they get any penalties? Are you taking the effects of Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) into consideration? As far as I can see, making unarmed attacks with both hands is considered TWF-ing, and as FCT means a natural attack can be augmented by any effect that augments an unarmed strike (such as the effects of the monk unarmed strike class feature), making FCT-boosted natural attacks with both hands is still considered to be TWF-ing, and the natural attacks would still be ignoring the penalties that would've been imposed by TWF-ing unarmed strikes.


Also, Skin of Proteus isn't nearly as strong as it was. I'm still bewildered as to why the Chimera would hear an inkling of any of this.There's been a recent errata not yet showing on d20pfsrd.com? Anyhow, I'm agreeing with you: the Chimera has nothing to gain from Skin of Proteus. My "edit" point in my previous post was that plenty of other classes do, which is why I said my worries about "too many natural attacks of one type" was misplaced. :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Why would they get any penalties? Are you taking the effects of Feral Combat Training (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) into consideration? As far as I can see, making unarmed attacks with both hands is considered TWF-ing, and as FCT means a natural attack can be augmented by any effect that augments an unarmed strike (such as the effects of the monk unarmed strike class feature), making FCT-boosted natural attacks with both hands is still considered to be TWF-ing, and the natural attacks would still be ignoring the penalties that would've been imposed by TWF-ing unarmed strikes. The normal attack bonus for each attack would be at a penalty for TWF and Secondary when making a full attack action that combines weapons and natural attacks, so that may apply.


There's been a recent errata not yet showing on d20pfsrd.com? Anyhow, I'm agreeing with you: the Chimera has nothing to gain from Skin of Proteus. My "edit" point in my previous post was that plenty of other classes do, which is why I said my worries about "too many natural attacks of one type" was misplaced. :smallsmile:

Metamorphosis isn't nearly as strong as it was in 3.5. As such, the Skin isn't nearly as good as it was. For the purposes of your build, it's 84 grand for 2 attacks, as far as I can tell. The abilities you want from it should be more readily obtained from other sources. It's not like you're gaining the special qualities of some exotic creature like miles of telepathy anymore.

[upho]

The normal attack bonus for each attack would be at a penalty for TWF and Secondary when making a full attack action that combines weapons and natural attacks, so that may apply.Yes, that would certainly apply if you did combine weapons/unarmed strikes with natural attacks. That is not the case here. The attacks made in the full attack in this case are absolutely 0% weapon attacks, 0% unarmed strikes, and 100% primary natural attacks (ie full BAB and full str bonus, regardless of how many they are and which limb is being used).

BUT, these primary natural attacks still benefit from anything that augments natural attacks, unarmed strikes or manufactured weapons. So my interpretation is as follows:

Does Broken Blade Stance augment any of these attack types? I'd say yes, and even more so if you're TWF-ing.
Would the attacks made mean that you're TWF-ing if they had been made as unarmed strikes (or with manufactured weapons) instead of as natural attacks? I'd say yes, of course, since they use both hands.
So, in conclusion you're considered to be TWF-ing, since in this case, TWF-ing augments your unarmed strikes, and therefore also augments your natural attacks via FCT.

This does not mean that your primary natural attacks suddenly become anything other than primary natural attacks, or suddenly impose penalties which are exclusively associated with unarmed strikes and manufactured weapons (which the TWF penalties are). Just as your natural attacks cannot normally be targeted by sunder attempts or suffer from the broken condition.


Metamorphosis isn't nearly as strong as it was in 3.5. As such, the Skin isn't nearly as good as it was.Ah, OK, now I get it. As it's been more than seven years since I last played 3.5, and probably more than ten since the last time I even looked at the psionic stuff, my 3.5 psi-fu is kinda rusty to say the least, and I don't even remember the 3.5 version of the skin.


For the purposes of your build, it's 84 grand for 2 attacks, as far as I can tell. The abilities you want from it should be more readily obtained from other sources. It's not like you're gaining the special qualities of some exotic creature like miles of telepathy anymore.That's the thing though: 2 natural attacks which stacks with existing attacks of the same type is a highly unique ability in PF. It's definitely not readily available from other sources. In fact, I'm pretty certain the only other way to gain 2 or more such stacking natural attacks is to be a synth.

[Snowbluff]

You can't TWF your singular Unarmed Strike. :smalltongue:

Don't get me wrong, natural attack builds are really strong.

[upho]

You can't TWF your singular Unarmed Strike. :smalltongue:Singular? I'm making two (or more) unarmed strikes, at least one with each hand.

[Snowbluff]

Singular? I'm making two (or more) unarmed strikes, at least one with each hand.

It's a quirk of the system. Sure, you have two hands, but that's not a weapons that just your hands. Your whole body is the weapon used for Unarmed Strike, which includes punching and kicking. In order to Two Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Attacks, you need a another manufactured weapon, like a sai, as your offhand weapon.

I know, the language is weird. :smalltongue:

[upho]

It's a quirk of the system. Sure, you have two hands, but that's not a weapons that just your hands. Your whole body is the weapon used for Unarmed Strike, which includes punching and kicking. In order to Two Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Attacks, you need a another manufactured weapon, like a sai, as your offhand weapon.

I know, the language is weird. :smalltongue:Eh...? Quote on that? It seems highly unlikely, considering that you actually need the TWF feat in order to make off-hand unarmed strikes as a regular non-monk, non-natural attack guy. And if you are a monk, your unarmed strikes are considered light weapons. FAQ:ed and certified true! :smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Huh, I guess you're right.

It still has nothing to do with this class, though. I guess if you like -7 penalties to hit, go right ahead.

[upho]

I guess if you like -7 penalties to hit, go right ahead.I'm starting to suspect you've gained an extra limb, specifically one of the type that ends in a tuft of hair... :smalltongue:

If you actually haven't, you really need to read up on the rules for natural attacks (and probably also unarmed strikes, monk unarmed strikes and FCT). Barring temporary penalties, making natural attacks (of either kind) with whatever limbs, combined with whatever unarmed strikes or weapon attacks of any number, does not ever result in a penalty greater than -5. Regardless of FCT and the monk unarmed strike feature.

Again, regardless of whether your natural attacks counts as unarmed strikes or not, making one or more law attacks with each hand never results in any attack penalty whatsoever unless you also make additional non-natural attacks (EDIT: or a monk flurry /EDIT). And FCT never adds a penalty of any kind, regardless of whether your natural attacks are augmented by effects normally limited to unarmed strikes or manufactured light weapons (EDIT: unless you make a monk flurry /EDIT).

[Snowbluff]

Wait, can't you Flurry with your Nat attacks, or did they change that? I was assuming you would flurry.

Also, I'm finding your posts a bit long winded, and the edits with parentheses are a bit hard to keep track of. A bit of friendly advice, when I change something, I put the edit in separately.

EDIT: Like this, for example.



Again, regardless of whether your natural attacks counts as unarmed strikes or not, making one or more law attacks with each hand never results in any attack penalty whatsoever unless you also make additional non-natural attacks (EDIT: or a monk flurry /EDIT). And FCT never adds a penalty of any kind, regardless of whether your natural attacks are augmented by effects normally limited to unarmed strikes or manufactured light weapons (EDIT: unless you make a monk flurry /EDIT). Also, it seems like bits of your speech gets mixed up when you translate it. I think you mean to say that your unarmed attacks count as natural attacks, but it saying the opposite.

It sounds like you're making the mistake that your Unarmed Strike doesn't count as a manufactured weapon (It always does, especially as a monk) and therefor won't give a -5 penalty. Either that, or you're saying you won't take the -2 for flurrying. I can't really tell.

Either way, for most heavy natural attack users, doing this is often a DPR loss for the building (feats and items) cost. Summoners in particular are very heavily weighted towards their natural attack, and the die on Druid's Natural Attacks will far outstrip their Unarmed Attack with Strong Jaw (Which becomes more useful based on the base die of the attack).

[upho]

Wait, can't you Flurry with your Nat attacks, or did they change that? I was assuming you would flurry.No flurry. And it's not an option, since MoMS monk doesn't get flurry anyways. Though I guess you could also add the TWF feat chain and multiattack, enabling you, as a monk, to make iterative normal UAS at full str and -2, and your natural attacks as secondary at half str and -2. Costly, but might very well result in an even more ridiculous overkill potential since more attacks = greater chance of a crit with Pummeling Style.


Also, I'm finding your posts a bit long winded, and the edits with parentheses are a bit hard to keep track of. A bit of friendly advice, when I change something, I put the edit in separately.

EDIT: Like this, for example.:smallredface: Sorry 'bout that, I totally agree and will try to improve.


Also, it seems like bits of your speech gets mixed up when you translate it. I think you mean to say that your unarmed attacks count as natural attacks, but it saying the opposite.Clarification: No, I'm saying your natural attacks remain natural attacks, regardless of whether you're a monk or whether you have FCT or not. And with the specific exception of flurry, natural attacks never take penalties associated with non-natural attacks (such as that of TWF-ing UAS), even if FCT allows you to add benefits otherwise limited to non-natural attacks. See also below.


It sounds like you're making the mistake that your Unarmed Strike doesn't count as a manufactured weapon (It always does, especially as a monk) and therefor won't give a -5 penalty. Either that, or you're saying you won't take the -2 for flurrying. I can't really tell.Again, I'm not making a single UAS, only primary natural attacks. BUT, I do apply all effects that augment UAS to my claw attacks.

But I should've been more clear, as this easily gets very confusing, mostly due to the "two-tiered stacking" effect of the monk UAS feature combined with FCT, and their similar rules language:

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk#TOC-Unarmed-Strike) /Monk UAS

"While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat) /FCT

So in conclusion, FCT means you have claw attacks which receive benefits otherwise limited to unarmed strikes, in addition to the normal benefits limited to your primary natural attacks. And because you have the monk UAS feature, one beneficial effect added to your natural attacks is the ability to also benefit from effects otherwise limited to manufactured weapons. It's worth noting the words "enhance or improve" of the monk UAS feature and "augment" of the FCT feat, which means the effects added to your UAS, and in turn your natural attack, doesn't include penalties associated with manufactured weapons or UAS.


Either way, for most heavy natural attack users, doing this is often a DPR loss for the building (feats and items) cost. Summoners in particular are very heavily weighted towards their natural attack, and the die on Druid's Natural Attacks will far outstrip their Unarmed Attack with Strong Jaw (Which becomes more useful based on the base die of the attack).But the damage of FCT natural attacks isn't a case of either UAS damage + UAS benefits OR natural attack damage + natural attack benefits, it's a case of natural attack damage + natural attack benefits AND any UAS benefits/enhancements (the monk UAS improved damage, for example).

So, the result for a chimera build of the type I've previously described is:

Three primary natural attacks (metamorphosis) with associated bonuses, in this case for example WF, Improved Critical, and Improved Natural Attack.
Any beneficial effects otherwise limited to UAS (FCT), in this case for example the damage die size increase of the monk UAS feature, the benefits of Pummeling Style and Charge, the 2 x str bonus of Horn of the Criosphinx, and the bonus of the brawling magic armor special ability.
Any beneficial effects otherwise limited to manufactured weapons (monk UAS), in this case most importantly being considered TWF-ing when making separate attacks using both hands, netting another two additional claw attacks from Broken Blade Stance. (I actually suspect this works even without being a monk or having FCT, but not without a clarification of what the phrase "If you are two-weapon fighting..." means in detail.)
One additional attack from haste, applies to any full attack regardless of attack/weapon type(s) used.


I hope this makes it less confusing. :smallsmile: