[3.5] Barbarian Archer?

[Optimator]

I've been heavily lurking multiple D&D forums since 2006 and for years I've heard " (3.5) Barbarians can make decent archers". I believe it, I can see it, but I've never seen any real cookie-cutter builds for one though. There are lots of paths to take and with the Pathfinder archery feats it seems as viable as ever. How would y'all make one?

Clearly a (3.5) Barbarian would be a volley archer and not a precision-damage archer. Numbers on top of numbers is the game, clearly, but what are the elegant ways to go about it? Gear is obviously paramount for an archer but that's regardless of class.

At first I thought Ferocity would be better than Whirling Frenzy because the Dex bonus would be better once Speed weapons come online, but it appears that Whirling Frenzy stacks with Haste and the like? Also, the improved Dex won't get better since an archer Barbarian would PrC out too soon while Whirling Frenzy comes online at level 1. Seems like Deadeye Shot would still make Ferocity appealing since a lot of tactical combat takes place at point-blank range. Probably still not better than an extra shot.

Other than Whirling Frenzy, what is Barbarian adding to a build? What can we do to make it more of a Barbarian than a volley Ranger with a Barbarian dip? It'd be nice to be more Barbarian heavy than anything (classes are metagame concepts, yadda yadda yadda), though I think a splash of Barbarian with Ranger going into a PrC would be flavorful. Ranger casting has some awesome archery spells but Rage would ruin that. It almost reminds me of Fighter archers with the Weapon Focus line adding numbers on numbers. Would a Fighter dip be appropriate or setting levels on fire?

[rockdeworld]

Well there is this (http://www.optibuilds.com/pathfinder-optimized-barbarian-archer-build/) which appears to deal reasonable damage.

[JaminDM]

Give it high dexterity and lots of archery feats, dip into ranger.

[Ssalarn]

There was actually an archery based Barbarian archetype from The Ranged Tactics Toolbox that was pretty solid, I'll see if I can't remember or find what it was called.

There's also the Urban Barbarian from Ultimate Combat who can choose whether to boost their DEX or STR when they rage, which is pretty handy; you can boost DEX for accuracy or STR for damage depending on the foe you're facing.

And adaptive bow is pretty much a must-have magic item, since it'll act like a composite bow that instantly adjusts to your current STR mod.

The Mighty Swing power can be really good for an archer; it doesn't actually specify that it has to be used with melee attacks, and auto-confirming a x3 or better crit at a level where rage cycling should be pretty easy is solid. Reckless Abandon can be another good rage power since you get extra attack bonus in exchange for an AC penalty, and presumably you're going to be attacking from out of attack range most of the time.

[Zaq]

If you're not playing at a level where you can assume to be ALWAYS RAGING ALL THE TIME, you want to invest in the bone bow, an exotic weapon from Frostburn. It's poorly worded, but as I interpret it, it lets you add your STR to damage (like a composite longbow), but unlike a composite longbow, it doesn't have a specific premade strength rating. That gives you the flexibility to take advantage of your extra STR when you're raging without being totally shafted by your lower STR when you're not raging. (If your GM looks askance at this interpretation of the bone bow, remind him or her that you're paying a feat for the privilege of using it, and it really isn't so much better than a normal longbow that it's worth a friggin' feat on its own.)

[WhamBamSam]

I can't seem to ever post in an archery thread without referencing Piggy Knowles' excellent Archer Build Thread, but ah well. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16959544&postcount=130) is more of a Totemist archer, but the idea might be adaptable to more of a Barbarian base while still being decent.

Silverbrow Human Ranger 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 8/Black Blood Cultist 8/Totemist 2
1. Ranger 1 - Track, Point Blank Shot, Dragon Tail
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Bear Totem Barbarian 1 - Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike
4. Bear Totem Barbarian 2 - Improved Grapple
5. Bear Totem Barbarian 3 - Great Fortitude
6. Black Blood Cultist 1 - Precise Shot
7. Black Blood Cultist 2
8. Black Blood Cultist 3
9. Black Blood Cultist 4 - Ranged Pin
10. Black Blood Cultist 5
11. Black Blood Cultist 6
12. Black Blood Cultist 7 - Open Slot
13. Black Blood Cultist 8
14. Totemist 1
15. Totemist 2 - Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
16. Bear Totem Barbarian 4
17. Bear Totem Barbarian 5
18. Bear Totem Barbarian 6 - Bonus Essentia
19. Bear Totem Barbarian 7
20. Bear Totem Barbarian 8

Bind the Girallon Arms to your totem and the Kraken Mantle to your arms then deal lots of damage with Savage Grapple (4 claws, a tail, and a bite)+Kraken Mantle via Ranged Pin. You can also use wands of Ranger spells, (Hunter's Eye is a good one if you can get it at a decent CL).

I understand there's a PF feat that works like Power Attack for ranged weapons. Since you're playing 3.P, that might as well go in the open feat slot.

It's sort of a silly build, and it might feel a bit too magical for what you want, but it's a solid damage output archer with a good deal of Barbarian flavor.

[Optimator]

Well there is this (http://www.optibuilds.com/pathfinder-optimized-barbarian-archer-build/) which appears to deal reasonable damage.
Cool! I forgot to mention I was thinking of the 3.5 Barbarian (I'll update the OP)but if I ever make one it seems the PF Barbarian is the way to go.

Give it high dexterity and lots of archery feats, dip into ranger.
Wow, how insightful. :smallannoyed:

There was actually an archery based Barbarian archetype from The Ranged Tactics Toolbox that was pretty solid, I'll see if I can't remember or find what it was called.

There's also the Urban Barbarian from Ultimate Combat who can choose whether to boost their DEX or STR when they rage, which is pretty handy; you can boost DEX for accuracy or STR for damage depending on the foe you're facing.

And adaptive bow is pretty much a must-have magic item, since it'll act like a composite bow that instantly adjusts to your current STR mod.

The Mighty Swing power can be really good for an archer; it doesn't actually specify that it has to be used with melee attacks, and auto-confirming a x3 or better crit at a level where rage cycling should be pretty easy is solid. Reckless Abandon can be another good rage power since you get extra attack bonus in exchange for an AC penalty, and presumably you're going to be attacking from out of attack range most of the time.
Great stuff! My DM uses the 3.5 Barbarian in his 3.P games but this is useful Thanks! It seems the PF archery feats are as useful as predicted.

If you're not playing at a level where you can assume to be ALWAYS RAGING ALL THE TIME, you want to invest in the bone bow, an exotic weapon from Frostburn. It's poorly worded, but as I interpret it, it lets you add your STR to damage (like a composite longbow), but unlike a composite longbow, it doesn't have a specific premade strength rating. That gives you the flexibility to take advantage of your extra STR when you're raging without being totally shafted by your lower STR when you're not raging. (If your GM looks askance at this interpretation of the bone bow, remind him or her that you're paying a feat for the privilege of using it, and it really isn't so much better than a normal longbow that it's worth a friggin' feat on its own.)
Thank you, but I am aware of that bow, a well as Hank's bow, The Wintermoon bow, Dragonbone bows, etc.


I can't seem to ever post in an archery thread without referencing Piggy Knowles' excellent Archer Build Thread, but ah well. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16959544&postcount=130) is more of a Totemist archer, but the idea might be adaptable to more of a Barbarian base while still being decent.

Silverbrow Human Ranger 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 8/Black Blood Cultist 8/Totemist 2
1. Ranger 1 - Track, Point Blank Shot, Dragon Tail
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Bear Totem Barbarian 1 - Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike
4. Bear Totem Barbarian 2 - Improved Grapple
5. Bear Totem Barbarian 3 - Great Fortitude
6. Black Blood Cultist 1 - Precise Shot
7. Black Blood Cultist 2
8. Black Blood Cultist 3
9. Black Blood Cultist 4 - Ranged Pin
10. Black Blood Cultist 5
11. Black Blood Cultist 6
12. Black Blood Cultist 7 - Open Slot
13. Black Blood Cultist 8
14. Totemist 1
15. Totemist 2 - Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
16. Bear Totem Barbarian 4
17. Bear Totem Barbarian 5
18. Bear Totem Barbarian 6 - Bonus Essentia
19. Bear Totem Barbarian 7
20. Bear Totem Barbarian 8

Bind the Girallon Arms to your totem and the Kraken Mantle to your arms then deal lots of damage with Savage Grapple (4 claws, a tail, and a bite)+Kraken Mantle via Ranged Pin. You can also use wands of Ranger spells, (Hunter's Eye is a good one if you can get it at a decent CL).

I understand there's a PF feat that works like Power Attack for ranged weapons. Since you're playing 3.P, that might as well go in the open feat slot.

It's sort of a silly build, and it might feel a bit too magical for what you want, but it's a solid damage output archer with a good deal of Barbarian flavor.
Interesting... Not quite what I was going for here but useful nonetheless. I'm fully and intimately aware of the Ranger spells making great wands but Rage makes the prospect tricky. My DM actually allows Power Shot to go 1:1 up to BAB so it's extra sick!

Thanks for the ideas guys. Keep 'em coming! :smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

You can be a decent single-shot archer. Goliath Barbarian with Ferocity and a composite/bone/energy bow is a pretty great base, since you start out at near-Greatsword levels of base damage. Whirling Frenzy is the superior choice if you want to volley though, since it's hard to say no to extra attacks.

[Seerow]

Going to re-emphasize the awesomeness that is Ferocity for an Archer Barbarian, it lets you get both strength and dex while raging, which is huge.


Add in the Dead Eye feat from Dragon Compendium and the above mentioned enhancement that lets your bow's str damage scale with your strength, between the two you can have a pretty serious damage output.


That said... a either dip or some flaws just to get some extra feats really will make a huge difference if playing at low levels. If you're starting around level 6-9 you should be fine, but starting at level 1-2 you'll be seriously hurting for feats.


edit:

Whirling Frenzy is the superior choice if you want to volley though, since it's hard to say no to extra attacks.

Personally, I disagree with this. Archery already has ways to get extra attacks. The more attacks you have, the less further attacks make an impact. Whirling Frenzy is at its best when used with the big two handed melee monsters who get few attacks naturally. For a TWFer or Archer, it will make less of an impact than getting higher damage per shot.

[ben-zayb]

I can't seem to ever post in an archery thread without referencing Piggy Knowles' excellent Archer Build Thread, but ah well. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16959544&postcount=130) is more of a Totemist archer, but the idea might be adaptable to more of a Barbarian base while still being decent.

Silverbrow Human Ranger 2/Bear Totem Barbarian 8/Black Blood Cultist 8/Totemist 2
1. Ranger 1 - Track, Point Blank Shot, Dragon Tail
2. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
3. Bear Totem Barbarian 1 - Toughness, Improved Unarmed Strike
4. Bear Totem Barbarian 2 - Improved Grapple
5. Bear Totem Barbarian 3 - Great Fortitude
6. Black Blood Cultist 1 - Precise Shot
7. Black Blood Cultist 2
8. Black Blood Cultist 3
9. Black Blood Cultist 4 - Ranged Pin
10. Black Blood Cultist 5
11. Black Blood Cultist 6
12. Black Blood Cultist 7 - Open Slot
13. Black Blood Cultist 8
14. Totemist 1
15. Totemist 2 - Open Lesser Chakra (Arms)
16. Bear Totem Barbarian 4
17. Bear Totem Barbarian 5
18. Bear Totem Barbarian 6 - Bonus Essentia
19. Bear Totem Barbarian 7
20. Bear Totem Barbarian 8

Bind the Girallon Arms to your totem and the Kraken Mantle to your arms then deal lots of damage with Savage Grapple (4 claws, a tail, and a bite)+Kraken Mantle via Ranged Pin. You can also use wands of Ranger spells, (Hunter's Eye is a good one if you can get it at a decent CL).

I understand there's a PF feat that works like Power Attack for ranged weapons. Since you're playing 3.P, that might as well go in the open feat slot.

It's sort of a silly build, and it might feel a bit too magical for what you want, but it's a solid damage output archer with a good deal of Barbarian flavor.Holy mothballs! That's... deliciously cheesy! I'm guessing there's also some totembound Manticore Belt involved?

[Blackhawk748]

Holy mothballs! That's... deliciously cheesy! I'm guessing there's also some totembound Manticore Belt involved?

No, thats for FLAMING NEEDLES OF DOOM! Seriously, theres a build floating around on here that does obnoxious damage with that belt. Edit: i believe it is Keledrath's, it involves the Hearthfire belt (i think thats what its called) and the Amulet of Natural attacks, each needle does like 4d5 fire and 1d6 of Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid, and you have like 6 of them at a crack. Technically we could consider this and archer in the DnD concept of ranged but not spellcaster, though this is seriously walking the line.

On topic, i second Ferocity, not only is it + Str and Dex, it is also an immediate action to activate, which can be helpful at random times. Otherwise most of the pertinent info has been stated, as a plus if you go mostly Barbar you will have A LOT of HP for an Archer and as a bonus you will probably look like a stereotypical Ranger, for bonus points take Wild Cohort for your "animal companion" to complete the charade.

Honestly now that i think about it two levels of Ranger cant hurt here, you get Rapid Shot and Track, one feat you really want, and one that is just nice to have.

[Quirp]

Only an archery barbarian can embrace CON penalties! Be a wood elf! Take berserker strength (ACF, PHB2)! Rage 24/7! Laugh at people, who think you should relax a little, since your face is stuck like this :smallfurious: anyway! Ignore lots of skills (especially knowledge)! Shoot people with arrows! Don't worry about adjustable composite bows! Life is easy, if you are angry enough!

[Blackhawk748]

Only an archery barbarian can embrace CON penalties! Be a wood elf! Take berserker strength (ACF, PHB2)! Rage 24/7! Laugh at people, who think you should relax a little, since your face is stuck like this :smallfurious: anyway! Ignore lots of skills (especially knowledge)! Shoot people with arrows! Don't worry about adjustable composite bows! Life is easy, if you are angry enough!

While this is hilarious, i would be leery about having my health that low, though you are an archer so it doesnt matter as much. This could be great if the DR granted by Berserk Fury stacked with the DR granted by Champion of CthargleFlargle, as youd have a fairly respectable amount. Actually you could go Ranger/Barbarian/ Champion of CthargleFlargle and have all sorts of sweet stuff.

[Quirp]

The DR stacks with class features, but multiclassing is out, since that would reduce your HP threshhold to rage (5 HP per barbarian level).

[Blackhawk748]

The DR stacks with class features, but multiclassing is out, since that would reduce your HP threshhold to rage (5 HP per barbarian level).

Oh ya, lame. Really sucks because you cant get into Champion of CtharglFlargle without being a barbarian, and you would usually just go straight Barbar 5 unless you need feats.

[WhamBamSam]

Interesting... Not quite what I was going for here but useful nonetheless. I'm fully and intimately aware of the Ranger spells making great wands but Rage makes the prospect tricky. My DM actually allows Power Shot to go 1:1 up to BAB so it's extra sick!That's a good point. Ranger is mostly there for Track and Rapid Shot, but yeah, that is a little bothersome.


Holy mothballs! That's... deliciously cheesy! I'm guessing there's also some totembound Manticore Belt involved?Piggy's original version (which I linked in my previous post) was a manticore belt Totemist build. I tried to make a more Barbarian-oriented version, which ended up just binding Girallon Arms to the totem for more claws with which to savagely grapple and to save a feat getting the Kraken Mantle's arm bind. Though on reflection, that actually puts two soulmelds on the same chakra. You can get the same number of extra attacks on your Savage Grapple by using the Threefold Mask of the Chimera, though that means having to settle for the Kraken Mantle's +1/essentia to grapple checks instead of +2+2/essentia from the Girallon Arms. Piggy's (superior) build gets around the problem of wanting to shape both melds to the arms with Double Chakra, but I don't have the meldshaper level for that.

I was originally going to avoid Totemist altogether and make it Ranger 2/Barbarian 8/Black Blood Cultist 8/Crusader or Swordsage 2, with feats nabbing the Kraken Mantle and Arms Chakra, but on closer reading Crushing Weight of the Mountain's constrict damage requires you to actually be grappling them, so that's a no-go.


No, thats for FLAMING NEEDLES OF DOOM! Seriously, theres a build floating around on here that does obnoxious damage with that belt. Edit: i believe it is Keledrath's, it involves the Hearthfire belt (i think thats what its called) and the Amulet of Natural attacks, each needle does like 4d5 fire and 1d6 of Fire, Cold, Electricity, and Acid, and you have like 6 of them at a crack. Technically we could consider this and archer in the DnD concept of ranged but not spellcaster, though this is seriously walking the line.

On topic, i second Ferocity, not only is it + Str and Dex, it is also an immediate action to activate, which can be helpful at random times. Otherwise most of the pertinent info has been stated, as a plus if you go mostly Barbar you will have A LOT of HP for an Archer and as a bonus you will probably look like a stereotypical Ranger, for bonus points take Wild Cohort for your "animal companion" to complete the charade.

Honestly now that i think about it two levels of Ranger cant hurt here, you get Rapid Shot and Track, one feat you really want, and one that is just nice to have.There are plenty of builds like that. The problem is, those builds often rely (at least somewhat) on the Manticore Belt being a natural weapon, which, while sensible and probably the RAI, is not the case by RAW. That was the original impetus for the build of Piggy's which I'm ripping off here.

[Zanos]

You can get dex damage with a 1 level dip in Targeteer Fighter from Dragon Magazine. Use Whirling Frenzy and Doesn't work against creatures immune to crits, however.
I think there's a rage variant that gives dex, but I can't find it.

[Optimator]

So what PrCs work best for a Barbarian archer? It appears Champion of Gwynwharyf would be best to me. The Righteous Wrath requirement also helps with any Ranger casting. Any archery PrCs scream out to anyone? Justice of Weald and Woe is a favorite of mine but the casting is spoiled unless one goes exalted. Peerless archer is Ok but we already allow ranged power attacks. OotBI is as garbage as ever.

What about a Bardic Barbarian archer? I suppose a homebrewed Falling Star initiator barbarian is as good anything but I feel like homebrew is tantamount to cheating in such an exploratory instance (not cheating in-game. Lord knows archery needs all the help it can get in 3.5).

[Optimator]

You can get dex damage with a 1 level dip in Targeteer Fighter from Dragon Magazine. Use Whirling Frenzy and Doesn't work against creatures immune to crits, however.
I think there's a rage variant that gives dex, but I can't find it.
Great ideas! Targeteer with Deadeye Shot, Power Shot, and Ferocity could make a good point-blank archer. But that leaves plenty of free levels and feats!

[WhamBamSam]

So what PrCs work best for a Barbarian archer? It appears Champion of Gwynwharyf would be best to me. The Righteous Wrath requirement also helps with any Ranger casting. Any archery PrCs scream out to anyone? Justice of Weald and Woe is a favorite of mine but the casting is spoiled unless one goes exalted. Peerless archer is Ok but we already allow ranged power attacks. OotBI is as garbage as ever.

What about a Bardic Barbarian archer? I suppose a homebrewed Falling Star initiator barbarian is as good anything but I feel like homebrew is tantamount to cheating in such an exploratory instance (not cheating in-game. Lord knows archery needs all the help it can get in 3.5).Since you're loading up on flat damage bonuses, you might consider Deepwood Sniper for big crits, even if you likely won't be able to do much with some other features.