More Simulacrum + True Polymorph

[Myzz]

OK... after reading: True Polymorph = Create Magic Item? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379436-True-Polymorph-Create-Magic-Item&highlight=Simulacrum+True+Polymorph)

True Polymorph = Create Magic Item?

My thinking on the above thread is that any creature you truepolymorph into a magic item would retain some sentience, and would be uncooperative in any endeavors you have in using that item and so you do not actually gain any of that items abilities, nor do you minions... But a PC that wants to kill the creator... Heck yea!

I want to set a ground rule:
No mention of Simulacrum chains...


I have a few questions/topics I think might be interesting:

A. True Polymorphing your Simulacrum of yourself into you...
1. Would it retain all its spell casting abilities?
AND
2. after 1 hour now become permanent?
So that
3. you can now cast Simulacrum again without your True Polymorphed version instantly being destroyed?

B. True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into Sentient Weapon
4. What types of Magic abilities would said Sentient Weapon Have?
And
5. after 1 hour now become permanent?
So that
6. you can now cast Simulacrum again without your True Polymorphed version instantly being destroyed?



The reason you want your simulacrum true polymorphed, is that as noted level (CR) is important for Creature to Creature, so its reasonable to assume an Ant, per se, would be a terrible magic item since its CR is 0. Your Simulacrum by comparison, would be at minimum a level 17 magic item equivalent... AND it would be willing to work with you, vice being hostile towards you.

Dominate of course could work as well, but the chances to save would eventually have it revert to despising you...

[Z3ro]

Well, if you want an overly RAW answer: as far as I know, PCs do not have challenge ratings. True Polymorph requires you to select a creature with a CR, therefore a PC would be inelligible. You could pick something like the archmage from the MM, but not yourself.

[Myzz]

Well, if you want an overly RAW answer: as far as I know, PCs do not have challenge ratings. True Polymorph requires you to select a creature with a CR, therefore a PC would be inelligible. You could pick something like the archmage from the MM, but not yourself.

True polymorph includes the statement:

(or it's level, if the target doesn't have a challenge rating)

[Alucard2099]

This wouldn't work because when you create something using Simulacrum, it doesn't have a conscientiousness. Thus when you polymorph it, it has no thoughts of it's own and just stands there. You also lose control of it.

[Z3ro]

True polymorph includes the statement:

Ah, missed that part.

[Symphony]

This wouldn't work because when you create something using Simulacrum, it doesn't have a conscientiousness. Thus when you polymorph it, it has no thoughts of it's own and just stands there. You also lose control of it.

There is no indication that this is the case. It is specifically noted as being 'friendly to you and creatures you designate' which suggests some level of emotion and independent thought. It can't learn, but True Polymorph does replace all mental ability scores with those of the end results creature, while retaining personality and alignment. Whether or not that would allow the former Simulacrum to learn is up to the DM.

Regardless, if the Simulacrum can be friendly to creatures, it probably has a personality (yours, most likely) that is retained post-transformation.

[Vogonjeltz]

OK... after reading: True Polymorph = Create Magic Item? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379436-True-Polymorph-Create-Magic-Item&highlight=Simulacrum+True+Polymorph)

True Polymorph = Create Magic Item?

My thinking on the above thread is that any creature you truepolymorph into a magic item would retain some sentience, and would be uncooperative in any endeavors you have in using that item and so you do not actually gain any of that items abilities, nor do you minions... But a PC that wants to kill the creator... Heck yea!

I want to set a ground rule:
No mention of Simulacrum chains...


I have a few questions/topics I think might be interesting:

A. True Polymorphing your Simulacrum of yourself into you...
1. Would it retain all its spell casting abilities?
AND
2. after 1 hour now become permanent?
So that
3. you can now cast Simulacrum again without your True Polymorphed version instantly being destroyed?

B. True Polymorphing your Simulacrum into Sentient Weapon
4. What types of Magic abilities would said Sentient Weapon Have?
And
5. after 1 hour now become permanent?
So that
6. you can now cast Simulacrum again without your True Polymorphed version instantly being destroyed?



The reason you want your simulacrum true polymorphed, is that as noted level (CR) is important for Creature to Creature, so its reasonable to assume an Ant, per se, would be a terrible magic item since its CR is 0. Your Simulacrum by comparison, would be at minimum a level 17 magic item equivalent... AND it would be willing to work with you, vice being hostile towards you.

Dominate of course could work as well, but the chances to save would eventually have it revert to despising you...

Not to be pedantic, but a sentient sword is indistinguishable, in form, from a regular sword. So true polymorph would be incapable of choosing one. Just "sword". (And so automatically is non magical. )

[Shining Wrath]

Detect Cheese registering a positive, Cap'n Kirk!

I see no RAW reason why a True Polymorph spell can't turn your simulacrum into something that looks like you. However, the question arises why you need the simulacrum; you can change a pebble into a you look-alike.

I do not know if you can use True Polymorph to create a creature with class levels.

However, once again, the old rule that whatever you can do NPCs can do rears its cheese-devouring head - which, oddly, resembles a Chicago Bears logo. If this works for you, then it worked for Narciss the Narcissistic 10 million year ago, and now every planet in the multiverse has a population of 10,000,000,000 copies of Narciss who obliterate any person who rises to level 2. Or whatever story the DM cares to invent; the point being that if you the player can create unlimited copies of yourself, someone else already has done that, because you are not the multiverse's first wizard.

[Myzz]

Detect Cheese registering a positive, Cap'n Kirk!

I see no RAW reason why a True Polymorph spell can't turn your simulacrum into something that looks like you. However, the question arises why you need the simulacrum; you can change a pebble into a you look-alike.

I do not know if you can use True Polymorph to create a creature with class levels.

However, once again, the old rule that whatever you can do NPCs can do rears its cheese-devouring head - which, oddly, resembles a Chicago Bears logo. If this works for you, then it worked for Narciss the Narcissistic 10 million year ago, and now every planet in the multiverse has a population of 10,000,000,000 copies of Narciss who obliterate any person who rises to level 2. Or whatever story the DM cares to invent; the point being that if you the player can create unlimited copies of yourself, someone else already has done that, because you are not the multiverse's first wizard.


Object to creature - you can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creature's size is no larger than the object's size and the challenge rating is 9 or lower. The creature is friendly to you and your companions. It acts on each of your turns. You decide what action it takes and how it moves. The DM has the creature's statistics and resolves all of its actions and movements.

If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it.


Creature into Object. If you turn a creature into an object, it transforms along with whatever it is wearing and carrying into that form. The creature's statistics become those of the object, and the creature has no memory of time spent in this form, after the spell ends and it returns to its normal form.

I really don't care about the infinite simulacrum spiral that could result, like you said if PC's can do it so can the bad guys except that they probably did it first... so the PC's just die.

What I do care about is the creation of sentient weapons in this fashion: The creature's statistics become those of the object. To me that says that the creature is still aware in its object form and retains intelligence along with all stats, as well as alignment and personality. It won't remember its time as an object after the fact, but it would be aware during...

Alos worthy of note is that ALL buffing spells (like enhance ability, invis, and mage armor), specify "creature" as the target of the spell. IF PC's can be creatures for those effects then they should by default also be "creatures" for Polymorph and True Polymorph.

In regards to the spell not being able to discern a specific "Sentient Weapon" therefore would default to a standard version... I believe the spell creates a Unique version of whatever it is that you create. Transforming somone into an Imp, wouldnt change that person's alignment to Evil if they were good. They would retain all their stats. The person doesnt become a standard Imp, they become a Unique Imp. Becomming Evil would likely only occur after they were banished and had to endure in the 9 Hells.

By default since the creature retains its stats while an object, any object it is turned into would be sentient???

Using the Simulacrum to become the sentient weapon is to ensure that it is willing and wants your best interests. ALSO it would be reasonably high CR, AND has significant spell casting abililties (yours as the wizard). I'm fairly certain that you can create a weapon in this fashion. My questions are:
1. What kind of stats for this weapon are we looking at Assuming a 17th level Wizard created it?
2. After it becomes permanent, what happens when you cast Simulacrum again?

[CrusaderJoe]

Well we now have our lore for how sentient weapons come along.

Plot #1:
To break the spell the weapon needs true love's kiss... Haha and ouch.

Plot #2:
I want to use this system to make a bunch of dieties into weapons that have their personality... So Odin's spear is actually just a Simulacrum of Odin himself...

[Shining Wrath]

I really don't care about the infinite simulacrum spiral that could result, like you said if PC's can do it so can the bad guys except that they probably did it first... so the PC's just die.

What I do care about is the creation of sentient weapons in this fashion: The creature's statistics become those of the object. To me that says that the creature is still aware in its object form and retains intelligence along with all stats, as well as alignment and personality. It won't remember its time as an object after the fact, but it would be aware during...

Alos worthy of note is that ALL buffing spells (like enhance ability, invis, and mage armor), specify "creature" as the target of the spell. IF PC's can be creatures for those effects then they should by default also be "creatures" for Polymorph and True Polymorph.

In regards to the spell not being able to discern a specific "Sentient Weapon" therefore would default to a standard version... I believe the spell creates a Unique version of whatever it is that you create. Transforming somone into an Imp, wouldnt change that person's alignment to Evil if they were good. They would retain all their stats. The person doesnt become a standard Imp, they become a Unique Imp. Becomming Evil would likely only occur after they were banished and had to endure in the 9 Hells.

By default since the creature retains its stats while an object, any object it is turned into would be sentient???

Using the Simulacrum to become the sentient weapon is to ensure that it is willing and wants your best interests. ALSO it would be reasonably high CR, AND has significant spell casting abililties (yours as the wizard). I'm fairly certain that you can create a weapon in this fashion. My questions are:
1. What kind of stats for this weapon are we looking at Assuming a 17th level Wizard created it?
2. After it becomes permanent, what happens when you cast Simulacrum again?

Well, let's use the usual "other people do it too" thought process - why wouldn't this be routine for high level magic users? Perhaps you can only have one Simulacrum out there (I intend to explicitly house rule that), but what Wizard doesn't want him or her self as a Wizard's staff, capable of casting a spell independently and doubling the power of the Wizard in combat?

So ...
1) There's going to be a LOT of sentient staves out there, because nearly every high level Wizard will have one, and when the Wizard finally dies, the staff remains behind
2) Ever lich you run into? Like, every damn one? Sentient staff. What lich doesn't want TWO immortal copies of himself, one the lich, one his staff?
2a) But if the Wizard created the staff before becoming a lich, it's possible that the staff is horrified by what the Wizard has become, and will betray him at a crucial moment (like, when the party arrives). Or perhaps the staff wants to BE the lich.
3) If you're evil, your staff is evil. If your staff is evil, it will seek its own benefit, not yours, pretty much by definition. This may not matter most of the time, but if the staff thinks it can dominate a weaker wizard, having you lose a mage's duel to someone 5 levels lower may advance its cause. Sucks to be you, evil dude of evilness with an evil staff.

[Myzz]

Well... if it has the same abilities as you... presumably it could True Polymorph itself as well... SO if it didnt want to be a staff to further your ends, it wouldnt need to be one =)

[Fwiffo86]

Using the Simulacrum to become the sentient weapon is to ensure that it is willing and wants your best interests. ALSO it would be reasonably high CR, AND has significant spell casting abililties (yours as the wizard). I'm fairly certain that you can create a weapon in this fashion.

The spellcasting abilities would all be one use only though wouldn't they? Its not like the "sword" can rememorize spells. I say this only because I'm pretty sure Simis don't regain spells once expended.

Not to mention being aware you are a sword is one thing. Perceiving the world without your eyes, ears and nose would be difficult for a creature that depended on them in the first place. Essentially you have a blind and deaf sword that can cast spells it can't target anywhere.

[Myzz]

The spellcasting abilities would all be one use only though wouldn't they? Its not like the "sword" can rememorize spells. I say this only because I'm pretty sure Simis don't regain spells once expended.

Not to mention being aware you are a sword is one thing. Perceiving the world without your eyes, ears and nose would be difficult for a creature that depended on them in the first place. Essentially you have a blind and deaf sword that can cast spells it can't target anywhere.

Ahh... yes I could see that. BUT it would still have spell slots. So then as a Wizard, you could use those slots, the ability of the weapon being able for you to do just that..?

And the Simi can't learn anything new... if it already has those spells prepared its not learning anything new. You could make the argument it couldn't change any of its prepared spells. But I would tend to think it still has those spells prep'd and spell slots would recover as normal.

[Fwiffo86]

Ahh... yes I could see that. BUT it would still have spell slots. So then as a Wizard, you could use those slots, the ability of the weapon being able for you to do just that..?

And the Simi can't learn anything new... if it already has those spells prepared its not learning anything new. You could make the argument it couldn't change any of its prepared spells. But I would tend to think it still has those spells prep'd and spell slots would recover as normal.

I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't recover anything once expended. I may have to re-read it.

[Dalebert]

I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't recover anything once expended. I may have to re-read it.

You're correct.

[Myzz]

I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't recover anything once expended. I may have to re-read it.

dohh... how'd I miss that part.

So, yeah making a simulacrum of a Caster would be nearly useless after it expends its spells. I'm guessing spell like abilities would be regen'd as normal? As well as all other Rest recovery mechanics? Just not expended Spell slots...

Much better to create a duplicate of any melee in the party... As long as you have equipment for it to use... Or even create a duplicate of a BBEG that has spell like abilities vice actual spells...

[Shining Wrath]

dohh... how'd I miss that part.

So, yeah making a simulacrum of a Caster would be nearly useless after it expends its spells. I'm guessing spell like abilities would be regen'd as normal? As well as all other Rest recovery mechanics? Just not expended Spell slots...

Much better to create a duplicate of any melee in the party... As long as you have equipment for it to use... Or even create a duplicate of a BBEG that has spell like abilities vice actual spells...

Unless ...

You're high enough level to have 9th level spells.

And then your Simulacrum uses Wish to ask for the ability to regain spell slots. The Wish ought to work; you do run a 1/3 chance of never using Wish again, but that's actually a small price to pay to regain all the other spells.

[Fwiffo86]

Unless ...

You're high enough level to have 9th level spells.

And then your Simulacrum uses Wish to ask for the ability to regain spell slots. The Wish ought to work; you do run a 1/3 chance of never using Wish again, but that's actually a small price to pay to regain all the other spells.

I solve this issue by preventing the Sim from having wish. Ever.

[Vogonjeltz]

Detect Cheese registering a positive, Cap'n Kirk!

I see no RAW reason why a True Polymorph spell can't turn your simulacrum into something that looks like you. However, the question arises why you need the simulacrum; you can change a pebble into a you look-alike.

I do not know if you can use True Polymorph to create a creature with class levels.

However, once again, the old rule that whatever you can do NPCs can do rears its cheese-devouring head - which, oddly, resembles a Chicago Bears logo. If this works for you, then it worked for Narciss the Narcissistic 10 million year ago, and now every planet in the multiverse has a population of 10,000,000,000 copies of Narciss who obliterate any person who rises to level 2. Or whatever story the DM cares to invent; the point being that if you the player can create unlimited copies of yourself, someone else already has done that, because you are not the multiverse's first wizard.

Any kind of creature rules out a specific beyond kind.

So, basically: human, but not Conan. Elf, but not Legolas.

Same with objects: sword, but not specifically a sentient one. Orb, but not specifically a dragon orb.

If the DM wants to be super mischievous they could do more than is specifically allowed, but the player has no grounds for choosing more than the kind, which is incredibly generic.