Wrath of the Righteous, Advice on Some Assumptions

[Axinian]

OK so at some undetermined point in the future I'm gonna be running the Wrath of the Righteous adventure path, and I've been doing research on it. A lot of people over at Paizo are whining that Mythic is broken (oh fighters can move and full attack boo hoo!), but having run a campaign with mythic and run high-powered gestalt games, I know I can handle many of the "broken" things cited.

However that's not the problem, the middle and later parts of Wrath of the Righteous are... weird. The encounters (especially in the middle) are under CRed, even for non-mythic PCs! Now this is easily solved by adding more challenging monsters, but ideally one would re-write all the stat-blocks (and indeed, a Paizo user has rewritten many and they are useful), but I'm gonna be running this during the school year and I want to minimize the actual amount of time designing monsters and encounters. So I've undertaken some adjustments to the adventure that will preemptively make things easier for me and the modules as written.

1) We're using 15 point buy rather than our normal 25

2) We won't be using any mythic feats or mythic spells. The path abilities themselves provide more than enough power and versatility increases.

3) We won't be using XP, as we normally don't. I prefer to have the PCs level up at narratively appropriate points. This also lets me cut encounters that are superfluous or poorly designed without needing to replace them for XP purposes. This is par for the course for us, but in the same vein, I'm reigning in the number of mythic tiers acquired due to the above mentioned power level issues. Now I imagine the power difference between Tier 10 and Tier 6/7 isn't much, but tiers will be gained at a slower rate and they won't reach 10th tier. Here's what I have planned in terms of advancement (obviously if the PCs decide to do things not accounted for I'll shift this around):


BOOK 1
Level 1: The PCs being the adventure at level 1.
Level 2: When they get to the Mongrelfolk village.
Level 3: When they escape the tunnels and enter the city.
Level 4: When they complete 3 of the 6 locations (Horgus’s House, The Library, Anevia’s House, 3 cultist safe houses)
Level 5: When they complete all 6 locations
Level 6: When the complete the Gray Garrison
Tier 1: When they complete book 1.

BOOK 2
Level 6 (ECL 7): The PCs are Level 6/Tier 1 when they start the adventure.
Level 7 (ECL 8): When they reach Drezen.
Level 8 (ECL 9): When they defeat Soltengrebbe the mythic chimera and secure the town of Drezen.
Level 9 (ECL 10): When they defeat Staunton Vhane, who is the “boss”. There'll be no dungeon level and I’ve
moved some of those encounters into the citadel proper.
Tier 2: When they complete book 2.

BOOK 3
Level 9 (ECL 10): The PCs are Level 9/Tier 2 when they start the adventure.
Level 10 (ECL 11): When they complete the missions in the Marchlands, or when they rescue Arueshalae.
Level 11 (ECL 12): When the complete the things they didn’t do already.
Level 12 (ECL 13): When they defeat Xanthir Vang in the Ivory Sanctum.
Tier 3: When they complete book 3.

BOOK 4
Level 12 (ECL 14): The PCs star the adventure at Level 12/Tier 3.
Level 13 (ECL 15): When they close the portal in the Midnight Fane.
Level 14 (ECL 16): When they gain Nocticula’s attention.
Level 15 (ECL 17): When they defeat Hepzamirah and shut down the mine.
Tier 4: When they complete book 4.

BOOK 5
Level 15 (ECL 17): The PCs start the adventure at Level 15/Tier 4.
Level 16 (ECL 18): When they enters the Ineluctable Prison.
Level 17 (ECL 19): When they are about halfway through Ineluctable Prison.
Level 18 (ECL 20): When they defeat or redeem the Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth.
Tier 5: When they complete book 5, regardless of whether Baphomet still lives.
Tier 6: Only if they defeat Baphomet.

BOOK 6
Level 18 (ECL 20 or 21): The PCs start the adventure at Level 18/Tier 5 or 6.
Level 19 (ECL 21 or 22): When they defeat Aponavicius.
Level 20 (ECL 22 or 23): When they defeat Khorramzadeh.
Tier 6 or 7: When they defeat Khorramzadeh.
Level 20 (ECL 23): Should finish at around this level.


4) I'm counting Tier 3 as the jump into ECL+2 rather than Tier 4.

5) I'm thinking about banning custom legendary items because custom item creation gets broken pretty easily.


Any more suggestions from people who know the adventure? Am I off base with these things? Just general advice?

[Raven777]

Some general observations, from playing the campaign till the beginning of the third book until the DM called it quits.


Levels and tiers are not the only power factor to watch for. Make sure you keep an eye on party wealth as well. The adventure as written will rain loot on the party, and by the end of the second book / beginning of the third book, they'll start being above WBL and their gear will make them more powerful than might seem at first glance.

Problem solving resources will be at an all time high. From the second book onward, the party will have an entire crusade backing it up, with a bevy of NPCs willing and able to provide anything from intel and resources to direct combat assistance. Meanwhile, thanks to Wild Arcana and Divine Inspiration, magic users will have access to every spell on their class list that takes a standard or less to cast. That'll play like Schrodinger's Wizard on steroids.

The PCs will have Plot Armor™. They are the only good aligned mortals endowed with mythic power for thousands of miles around. The McGuffin which gave them these powers blew up. They are a god's first and only chosen ones. There's nobody to replace them. If someone dies and can't be brought back, there won't be a random 3rd Tier hero on stand by at the inn to fill the spot. It'll be close the books, campaign's over. Make sure they never notice.


Because of the last point in the list, and because a puzzling plurality of the encounters as written are trivial for the party when met, I believe that the adventure path was never written to be "challenging" beyond the second book, even by Paizo's standards. I think the players, narratively and mechanically, from the third book onward, are genuinely meant to cleave through everything that stands in their way and be big damn heroes 100% of the time. The party will not be The Fellowship of the Ring. The party will be The Expendables. This can be tons of fun for some (I really liked it), not so much for others (my DM and the other player didn't).

[Kol Korran]

Hi there Axinian, I am running the AP (through slowly), We've just finished the second module, and I've read through the 3rd and 4th. I'll try to relate my own understandings and comment on your plans. Note that my group are not heavy optimizers (Only two make an effort at all) so this may vary.

First of all, before I go to your notes: The AP as it is is not that challenging, and I'm talking even in the first and second book. I had to do quite a lot of modifications to make it so. (Under my campaign log). I also think that while they have got the theme and concept right, the execution of the module is fairly... lacking. I also took it in order to minimize prep work, but I find myself spending quite a bit of time adjusting it to my needs.



1) We're using 15 point buy rather than our normal 25 I thought the normal was 15? :smallconfused: We started at 25, because we thought "hey, epic adventure!" but now that the mythic tiers will be adding a +2 every 2 levels... Hmmm... hope it won't get out of hand, though I feel it will.


2) We won't be using any mythic feats or mythic spells. The path abilities themselves provide more than enough power and versatility increases. We've only gotten to Tier 3, but from what I've noticed so far it's the basic path abilities that are problematic- the Wild Arcana, Inspired spell and the "bonus attack that disregard DR" abilites (But mainly Widl Arcana and Inspired spell)- the casters are now spontaneous casters with access to all spells in the list. Seriously, the casters prefer to keep their mythic power just for that. This make them all batman wizards (If I use the term correctly)


3) XP in narrative points. Yeah, I agree with what you've said. I usually do so as well, but the party for some reason insisted on using XP for this adventure. Just a useless hassle in my view, too restricting. The table for what you proposed for the 1-3rd modules seem about right. I just suggest that in the 3rd module you'll leave it a bit more fluid, as it's the more sandboxy seeming module of what I've read so far. Also, no leveling up for overcoming the dragon?


4) I'm counting Tier 3 as the jump into ECL+2 rather than Tier 4.Not sure what you mean here... care to elaborate?


5) I'm thinking about banning custom legendary items because custom item creation gets broken pretty easily. Don't know much about these. One of my party wants to create e legendary item now, but frankly, they seem kind of... meh...




Levels and tiers are not the only power factor to watch for. Make sure you keep an eye on party wealth as well. The adventure as written will rain loot on the party, and by the end of the second book / beginning of the third book, they'll start being above WBL and their gear will make them more powerful than might seem at first glance.
Wealth is an issue. I've tried lowering the amount of wealth and they are still somewhat ahead.


Meanwhile, thanks to Wild Arcana and Divine Inspiration, magic users will have access to every spell on their class list that takes a standard or less to cast. That'll play like Schrodinger's Wizard on steroids. I mentioned this earlier


The PCs will have Plot Armor™. They are the only good aligned mortals endowed with mythic power for thousands of miles around. The McGuffin which gave them these powers blew up. They are a god's first and only chosen ones. There's nobody to replace them. If someone dies and can't be brought back, there won't be a random 3rd Tier hero on stand by at the inn to fill the spot. It'll be close the books, campaign's over. Make sure they never notice. This is a big problem that haven't come up yet, and that I don't know how to deal with frankly. I'm less worried about a character dying, than a player wishing to change characters for variety. You can always find some flavor reason (Transfering of the power or what not) but it feels very very far fetched and so on, considering the nature of the campaign.


Because of the last point in the list, and because a puzzling plurality of the encounters as written are trivial for the party when met, I believe that the adventure path was never written to be "challenging" beyond the second book, even by Paizo's standards. I think the players, narratively and mechanically, from the third book onward, are genuinely meant to cleave through everything that stands in their way and be big damn heroes 100% of the time. The party will not be The Fellowship of the Ring. The party will be The Expendables. This can be tons of fun for some (I really liked it), not so much for others (my DM and the other player didn't). I do not know the other Paizo modules, but this one does feel as if it was meant to be easy. (And for comparison, my group usually picks "what seems cool and useful" as they level up. Only one plans more than 2 levels ahead). It takes quite a bit of work to make it more challenging.

An option I'd suggest considering is running the module with the current stats, but without mythic powers. They feel like they are turning things a bit crazy, and this is only 2 tiers in. It also makes the point of characters being "Super special" not a problem. But... a main feature of this campaign, and part of the reason my players picked it, was to play the mythic rules, feel like big damned special super heroes, so maybe it's worth it?

Good luck to you!

[Raven777]

Oh, another observation. The Player Companion for the adventure has a section that might give your players an impression that most bad guys are redeemable if they try. This is doable in the first and second book with mooks, to an extent, though it serves little purpose. But beyond, I strongly believe that text was only there to ensure the party does not murder the third book's one nice 100% redeemable Succubus who's meant to become a pretty important follower. For everyone else from Book 3 onward, bothering with Diplomacy / redemption is wasted time and efforts.

[Oazard]

I was the DM of Raven and I generally like to play high-powered high fantasy campaigns. Just for information, the event that ended our campaign was when the paladin (level 9/mythic 3) started to one shot CR18 Dragons*. We also played WotR MAW-style (Module as Written).
*Not a problem with me, but our paladin really didn't find it fun and it broke the mood.

As my player said, watch the WBL. When we stopped our campaign, I think they were at WBL*3 or 4, even after equipping many NPCs.

An easy way to increase the challenge of the encounters is to simply increase the number of enemies (I didn't because MAW), especially for boss monsters. Also, target the non-mythic allies of the PCs and remind them that the NPCs are under their responsibilities. :smallamused:

[Axinian]

Thanks for the advice. I also love your campaign journal Kol Korran.



We've only gotten to Tier 3, but from what I've noticed so far it's the basic path abilities that are problematic- the Wild Arcana, Inspired spell and the "bonus attack that disregard DR" abilites (But mainly Widl Arcana and Inspired spell)- the casters are now spontaneous casters with access to all spells in the list. Seriously, the casters prefer to keep their mythic power just for that. This make them all batman wizards (If I use the term correctly)


Yeah but all the melee abilities haven't been a problem for me so far. It's really more insane damage boosts, and the swingyness of criticals provided by mythic feats that are annoying. Yeah Wild Arcana and Inspired Spell are pretty nutty (and I groaned when I first read them when the book came out) but I'm leery of banning them since my players rarely play full casters and so far they haven't used these abilities particularly effectively in my currently running mythic game. They also have a distressing lack of foresight when it comes to spell selection so I'm OK giving this out to them. (Though I may change my tune once we start playing.



Yeah, I agree with what you've said. I usually do so as well, but the party for some reason insisted on using XP for this adventure. Just a useless hassle in my view, too restricting. The table for what you proposed for the 1-3rd modules seem about right. I just suggest that in the 3rd module you'll leave it a bit more fluid, as it's the more sandboxy seeming module of what I've read so far. Also, no leveling up for overcoming the dragon?


Forgot about the Dragon somehow :P That's generally a pretty good spot for leveling.



Not sure what you mean here... care to elaborate?

Don't know much about these. One of my party wants to create e legendary item now, but frankly, they seem kind of... meh...

Mythic tiers increase Average player level by .5, but not all tiers are equal in power increase. Tier 3 is the sticking point for most people, and almost certainly increases the players power by a full level.



I mentioned this earlier
This is a big problem that haven't come up yet, and that I don't know how to deal with frankly. I'm less worried about a character dying, than a player wishing to change characters for variety. You can always find some flavor reason (Transfering of the power or what not) but it feels very very far fetched and so on, considering the nature of the campaign.


Yeah I don't have a good solution either. I only rarely end up killing players, so I'm hoping it won't be an issue. Depending on the player's desired character and what book they're in:
1) A captured crusader or other demon fighter now freed? Perhaps the baddies used them to test the Elixir and have mythic powers as a result?

2) A turncoat cultist? Another redeemable demon?

3) Some extraplanar traveler they encounter in the Abyss (maybe Nocticula's city) who has acquired mythic power through other, exotic means?

Half-baked thoughts of the top of my head.



I do not know the other Paizo modules, but this one does feel as if it was meant to be easy. (And for comparison, my group usually picks "what seems cool and useful" as they level up. Only one plans more than 2 levels ahead). It takes quite a bit of work to make it more challenging.


Yeah I've very rarely encountered ANY published adventure that didn't need some work to make challenging.



An option I'd suggest considering is running the module with the current stats, but without mythic powers. They feel like they are turning things a bit crazy, and this is only 2 tiers in. It also makes the point of characters being "Super special" not a problem. But... a main feature of this campaign, and part of the reason my players picked it, was to play the mythic rules, feel like big damned special super heroes, so maybe it's worth it?


I think it is. My players like mythic because it shakes things up a bit. And I agree that mythic is sort of the point. If mythic were to be removed, some other cool epic subsystem would have to replace it for it to feel right to me.


Oh, another observation. The Player Companion for the adventure has a section that might give your players an impression that most bad guys are redeemable if they try. This is doable in the first and second book with mooks, to an extent, though it serves little purpose. But beyond, I strongly believe that text was only there to ensure the party does not murder the third book's one nice 100% redeemable Succubus who's meant to become a pretty important follower. For everyone else from Book 3 onward, bothering with Diplomacy / redemption is wasted time and efforts.

I am aware of this issue, but fortunately it's pretty easily fixed. I have some ideas for characters in the later books who can be redeemed. For example, I'm definitely gonna roll with the idea that a certain OTHER succubus is seriously thinking about not being evil anymore (though she moves to CN at best probably). I'm also considering a possible angle for Storm King redemption (though they would have to figure out his now forgotten past as a mortal in order go at it from a good angle). I also feel like the lich in book 5 could be worked to be redeemable, though again, probably to neutrality at best (I'm not running this Golarion, so the runelord of wrath stuff can be tossed out). Still just sort of spit-balling these, but I know for certain I want to make Staunton redeemable (Why is he irredeemable again? Isn't a fallen paladin an archetypal story of redemption?).

Regarding the wealth issue, I haven't looked that closely at the treasure, though we often end up playing loot heavy games. Fortunately the treasure issue is also easily fixed, though requires a bunch more reading :/

[Oazard]

Yeah I've very rarely encountered ANY published adventure that didn't need some work to make challenging.

I think it is. My players like mythic because it shakes things up a bit. And I agree that mythic is sort of the point. If mythic were to be removed, some other cool epic subsystem would have to replace it for it to feel right to me.

I think there is a difference between an easy AP and this one*. Playing superheroes is great if you have great supervillains to battle, because there is a limit of fun you can have while destroying everything on your path. (Maybe not :smallamused: ) IMO, the mythic subsystem doesn't add anything to the epic feel of the campaign, unless the players take the fun and cool abilities, like aerial assault. So I would push my players to take them and to try cool moves in combat.
*There is maybe the fact that our group was really high powered even before adding mythic, but still, they were only two players. (Okay, Raven was a vampire, it didn't help. :smallbiggrin: )



Still just sort of spit-balling these, but I know for certain I want to make Staunton redeemable (Why is he irredeemable again? Isn't a fallen paladin an archetypal story of redemption?).

I don't remember well his past, but I think the fact that he tried to destroy Kenabres, that he sends three demons to kill his brother and that he wants to left a heritage of evilness to this world doesn't help his case. :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

A lot of people over at Paizo are whining that Mythic is broken (oh fighters can move and full attack boo hoo!),

It's more: "Casters can cast two spells a turn and cast any spell on their list spontaneously. Fighters can move and full attack with an extra attack that stacks with haste"

[Raven777]

It's more: "Casters can cast two spells a turn and cast any spell on their list spontaneously. Fighters can move and full attack with an extra attack that stacks with haste"

Stop right there. That was one of the first things they patched (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl#v5748eaic9r83).


(Okay, Raven was a vampire, it didn't help. :smallbiggrin: )

Oh, right. The fact that there is a really nice opportunity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381785-PF-My-very-own-bottled-vampire) in the second book to acquire the Vampire Template is worth mentioning, if any of your players are into that.