Why do all builds assume you'll live to demi god status

[yellowrocket]

Maybe i missed something having been away from d&d for so long. But why do all the builds seem to believe your character will live to level 20. Some of the builds start with I'm designing a level 20 what ever.

It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game? Or are there others like me who find the probability of a dying only a poor roll away as a fun party of the combat? Knowing that the"golden bb" could be out there to take you down. And it makes you take your time and enjoy the story that you are creating.

[eggynack]

It's not that builds assume that you'll reach 20, but rather that builds have the potential to reach 20. It's the natural break point for most builds, especially if they're a bit theoretical, and thus unbound to a particular game. As for why building out the future is important, this is a game where planning is necessary to do a number of things. Feats and prestige classes alike often have a complicated web of prerequisites, and making decisions the moment you level is a good way to ensure a lot of lost options.

[Calimehter]

In the absence of specific campaign info - i.e. what level range it will take place in - it is best to build for the whole range of available levels. So a lot of general builds you see on the internet will be built that way.

[sideswipe]

optimism, you don't plan your life only to age 35 unless you know its going to end you think you will last long into your old age, so you don't just plan to level 8 if there could be more after that.

but a lot of the time its because if you propose a build to someone up to level 10 and they take it they get to 11 with no direction or goals.

p.s. i don't want this to sound wrong, i meant it in a nice way

[WhamBamSam]

Yes, death is always a possibility. Yes, that's part of the fun of the game. Yes, most games occur in a lower level range. You'll frequently see complaints that a build blooms too late and of course you want the build to come online as early as possible. These are concerns that exist in character optimization.

It's still a reasonable thing to assume that the build will live all the way to 20 here on the forums. If someone is going to be playing it in a long campaign, it's nice to give them a place to go with each level at which they don't die. If you level up willy-nilly without a plan, 3.5 will often punish you for it. That's just the kind of game it is.

Level 20 is also a reasonable breakpoint for builds that veer off into the realm of theorycrafting. Epic levels are sort of a whole different game, so level 20 marks a decent cutoff for the brewing of weird ideas while still working within things which somewhat resemble confines.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Why would you build to fail? If you're going to spend the time planning out your build you should do it with success in mind.

Also if you don't optimize you can just take 20 levels of whatever and have no need to post about your build on a forum, which is why you don't see many threads about those.

[sideswipe]

It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game? Or are there others like me who find the probability of a dying only a poor roll away as a fun party of the combat? Knowing that the"golden bb" could be out there to take you down. And it makes you take your time and enjoy the story that you are creating.

i have only ever played 2 optimised characters, even then they have not been power houses,

one was a gestalt psion/ other things that give aura's and passive buffs, i concentrated on blaster psion and was the most optimised party member as the other players are very low OP.

the current one is wizard 5/ war weaver 5 going abjurant champion.
the idea being buffing my other party members to be GODS to make up for the ok/poor/pathetic builds they have.
when a low op party beat a mid-OP cr 15 encounter when they are lvl 8 you know your doing it right. i did 0 damage and cast 1 debuff all fight.

[Cirrylius]

It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game?

*shrug*

D&D is a roleplaying game. Can't roleplay if you're dead.

[RoboEmperor]

Maybe i missed something having been away from d&d for so long. But why do all the builds seem to believe your character will live to level 20. Some of the builds start with I'm designing a level 20 what ever.

It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game? Or are there others like me who find the probability of a dying only a poor roll away as a fun party of the combat? Knowing that the"golden bb" could be out there to take you down. And it makes you take your time and enjoy the story that you are creating.

I don't understand the question. I just... don't.

Are you saying because a character could die you don't plan your character at all?

Or are you saying planning a character somehow prevents you from enjoying a story?

I don't understand how planning a build you like to play stops you from enjoying the risk of death. Are you saying if there's nothing you want to live for in a game you'll enjoy death more?

[Optimator]

Also if you don't optimize you can just take 20 levels of whatever and have no need to post about your build on a forum, which is why you don't see many threads about those.

This. Furthermore, if a build doesn't hit its stride by level 17-20 it's generally considered a poor build anyway. So all these builds you see are really level 7-15 builds at their core anyway!

Additionally, D&D 3.5 was designed with optimization specifically in mind! Otherwise you wouldn't see such a deliberate release of (delicious, savory) splat material with all the new books and so many trrap options in Core. Wizard's made Magic: The Gathering, after all...

[yellowrocket]

Points taken. I guess part of it comes from having characters and games end earlier because of encounters or that being the end of the story and it's time to start a new story.

Are the builds as good at levels 5-10 add they are in the later stages or are there trade offs if you wanted to get the most from a lesser level and end the story there?

[Optimator]

Of course there are trade-offs and every build has different sweet spots. Some really are designed for low-level play. This is the reason that forum etiquette dictates one states the predicted level range of a game when asking for build advice.

Also, any build that is sub level 7 or so almost isn't a build since PrCs of such low level are so rare. It's more of a collection of feats at that point.

[eggynack]

Are the builds as good at levels 5-10 add they are in the later stages or are there trade offs if you wanted to get the most from a lesser level and end the story there?
It depends on the build, really. Good builds tend to be viable from 1-20, but some peak early and some peak later on. Sometimes, especially when you're paying feat taxes, you need to make decisions at early levels that won't pay off until later, and sometimes, if you avoid those feat taxes, you're helping your present at the expense of your future. Optimization is a complex and intricate thing. There are always classes that really rock the early levels though, including druid, ToB classes, totemist, and barbarian, among others. If you want early game power for whatever reason, there are ways to get it.

[137beth]

Really well-done builds are good during the entire range of levels. Usually, if no level is specified, people build for levels 1-20 not because they expect the game to go through all 20 levels, but so that whatever range the game does go through, you have a viable build ready.

If someone asks for a build and specifies that they are starting at level X, then that opens up build options which only really work from levels X to 20, ignoring the lack of viability in the 1 to X-1 range. Likewise, if someone specifics that they are fairly certain a game won't go past level Y, then that opens up builds which work from levels 1-Y but may fall apart afterwards. But when no level range is specified, it's usually best to give as much information as could be needed.


*shrug*

D&D is a roleplaying game. Can't roleplay if you're dead.

Sure you can! The 'dead' condition does not prevent you from taking Roleplaying actions.

[Zanos]

*shrug*

D&D is a roleplaying game. Can't roleplay if you're dead.
I do think it's worth mentioning that D&D has a lot of roots in tactical rulegames, and therefore a lot of the rules are based around combat, which tends to have an objective of "kill the other guys before you die."

It's an RPG, but saying that lethal combat is a small part of D&D is like saying water makes up a small part of the human body.

[WeaselGuy]

Ya know, my very first character ever was a Tiefling Monk, who prestiged into Tattooed Monk from CW. I had a little bit of help from the other players at my table, with regards to feats and what have you, but on the whole, when I look back at Zinthos (aka Menthos), I see nothing about him that made him useful at level 30. In fact, the 4 shining points in his career are when he was 1) stepped on and killed by an umber hulk, 2) failed subsequent jump and swim checks and drowned while crossing a stepping stone chasm, 3) was performing "trapfinding" procedures by punching the floor in front of him and fell into lava, and 4) finally managed, at level 30, to Quivering Palm one of the Lords of Hell (with much debuffing to said Lord by our Cleric), whereupon I snapped my finger and instantly slayed him.

I did not do any fancy dips or Otyugh Holes or DCFSing, I didn't build an awesome trip/knockdown-lockdown build, I didn't even use good items. If I recall, I went Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 10/Monk +15. I took Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows, and various other feats, like Adamantine Fist and the Two-Weapon Fighting tree (hello flurry of misses).

Earlier last year, I went back to try and optimize good 'ole Zinthos. I used his WBL to buy useful gear. I chose decent feats. I kept Tattooed Monk for posterity's sake. I still took the TWF tree, but I also dipped other classes, I mixed in other prestige classes, I made smarter choices. Long story short, I just about doubled his combat efficacy.

Now, how much of this came from a decade of system mastery? How much of it came from spending a year on this forum? How much of it came from spending time on brilliantgameologists, looking at handbooks? And in the end, how much of it came from simply sitting down at my computer, and just writing out what I wanted my character to be able to do, then planning my feats ahead of time?

TL;DR - Can you play a character, and have fun, without planning out every single step on the way? Of course you can. Zinthos.v1 is still one of my favorite characters, even if he couldn't the broad side of a flat-footed barn more than twice out of 8 attacks. But, if you want the kind of character that can out-sneak Olidamarra and stun-lock Gruumsh, well, you need to plan it out and invest the time and effort before you even start playing.

Edit:

Sure you can! The 'dead' condition does not prevent you from taking Roleplaying actions.
Also, being dead is just a prerequisite for a good prestige class :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

*shrug*

D&D is a roleplaying game. Can't roleplay if you're dead.

Hey! Some of my best characters are undead!

[ericgrau]

It is all fine and good to build for 1-20, but yeah I do see a lot of builds built only for 20 not 1-20. Often keystones of the build don't come online until level 11. I think posters need to stop kidding themselves and post a level 10 build if they have to pick a level. If you don't have time to show the build at every level or 5/10/15/20, a level 10 build could make it more obvious how many pieces of the build you'll be missing early on and force the build to be at least 75% practical for low to mid level play. So basically I think everyone should be posting level 10 builds if anything, because all this hope to progress to level 20 seems like a load of BS when no one shows that progression.

[The Insanity]

But why do all the builds seem to believe your character will live to level 20. Some of the builds start with I'm designing a level 20 what ever.
Because the game assumes you'll live to 20th level.


It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game? Or are there others like me who find the probability of a dying only a poor roll away as a fun party of the combat? Knowing that the"golden bb" could be out there to take you down. And it makes you take your time and enjoy the story that you are creating.
One does not exclude the other.

[Urpriest]

It really varies. Most PO builds will be viable 1-20 (or at least 2 or 3-20), because they're focused around a class that gives solid abilities at most levels (casters, initiators, meldshapers...), or for martials because they're a big pile of dips, which tends to be better at low levels than at high levels, capped off by a prestige class that keeps them relevant in the late-game. Probably the least consistent PO builds are gishes and theurges, but in those cases there aren't actually a lot of viable options that sacrifice late-game power for early-game advancement, so I would argue that in general they've still got the most low-level power consistent with their archetype.

For TO, you've either got a goal of doing something at the lowest level possible (Pun-Pun), or you're trying to maximize something, in which case it's generally considered sporting to do so pre-Epic, so level 20.

Possibly more common than either, but less often talked about, are art builds. A large number of builds are out there, not to be "effective" or "powerful" but to realize some concept in an interesting way. If that takes until level 20, then that's what they do. If not, the build still generally looks incomplete if it doesn't fill things in till the end, so people will generally still figure out the rest of it.

[goto124]

(something about the Horizon Tripper build)

Found it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-%28Core-Melee-Build%29

[Larkas]

Maybe i missed something having been away from d&d for so long.

Maybe this is it. In older editions of the game, you didn't really have to plan your character ahead. You didn't have feats, skills, PrCs... Pretty much your only decision build-wise was to either multi/dual class or go single class all the way, and, later in AD&D 2E, if you'd like to take a kit. You couldn't screw your character over by spending a feat slot in Acrobatic, for example.

[Knaight]

Maybe this is it. In older editions of the game, you didn't really have to plan your character ahead. You didn't have feats, skills, PrCs... Pretty much your only decision build-wise was to either multi/dual class or go single class all the way, and, later in AD&D 2E, if you'd like to take a kit. You couldn't screw your character over by spending a feat slot in Acrobatic, for example.

More than that, you didn't have lots and lots of prerequisites. There are a lot of games with skills, feat analogs, and PrC analogs (or at least abilities that can be picked up that are in a similar vein); these generally don't require the pre-planning of D&D 3e. The introduction of heavy prerequisites is what brings that in. If the only prerequisite for a feat or PRC was level, with occasional use of BAB, caster level, or similar, way less planning would be needed. As is, if you want to get into a lot of PrCs at all, or take certain feats at all, you need to build well in advance.

[yellowrocket]

This was far more informative and generated far more responses than I expected.

With only the core books for 3.0 I'm just beginning to see just how much information that I've missed out on.

That and the random encounter table while recovering being the primary cause of my characters deaths. Never got passed 10 with but a few of them.

[Sam K]

Maybe i missed something having been away from d&d for so long. But why do all the builds seem to believe your character will live to level 20. Some of the builds start with I'm designing a level 20 what ever.

It's everyone on this site here to optimize the build of their character like a sports car or a video game? Or are there others like me who find the probability of a dying only a poor roll away as a fun party of the combat? Knowing that the"golden bb" could be out there to take you down. And it makes you take your time and enjoy the story that you are creating.

I've yet to see someone be unwilling to give a breakdown level by level of a "designed for 20" character if they are asked for one. However, it's a bit of work to do so, so most people will only do it if someone is actually interested in knowing the details of the build. Most people will include a note about when a build "comes online" if it's one of those characters who do not really work until a certain amount of pre-reqs have been met.