Custom Class System Feedback Requested

[wardonis]

http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/

This is my website, it's all about a class and it's sub-classes. Still a work in progress so don't chew my head off over balance and grammar at the moment. At the moment I'm trying to balance the different elemental specialties against one another, then I'll try to balance it against other classes, maybe. With the amount of work I've put into this with the help of good friends over the last 5 years I may just decide to make a whole new system but thats down the road.

Anyway I'd like honest opinions about what may or may not be fun, things that can be broken and need clarification to prevent such things. Any feed back from play testing would be a huge help. Last but not least, I am looking for a new Dev. Doesn't involve too much, just the occasional brain storm and check over changes or creations to see what may or may not work.

We've mostly been playing pathfinder to test but it started with 3.5 and we may remove 3.5 from it all together, pathfinder just works better with it. If you have any questions ask away i'll check back here regularly.

[Xzoltar]

I went to your website and its quite a lot of information and new rules mechanics to start. It sound very interesting, but I dont currently have enough free time to read it all and make a review.

However I think that if you could post sample of PC or NPC created using those rules it could help us, by beeing able to judge the sampled PC/NPC and also to interested us in your mechanics and make us want to learn more about it and thus read it.

If im a level 10 Arcanist with Intelligence 22 and 16 Charisma I have :

- Arcane Blast : Deal 4d8 Damage (what type ?) at Ranged touch (what range ? if its touch do we have to make an attack roll ?). If I use a Spell slot of level 1 I can deal an extra 1d8 Damage (+5d8 for a level 5 spell). I can also sacrifice up to 12 HP to increase my Caster Level to 16 for a total of 11d8 Damage and the target is Crused for 5 turns so every time I hit with one of my Arcanist Power I regain 2 HP from the 10 HP I have decided to sacrifice ? (4d8 Base, 5d8 Spell Slot, 2d8 Sacrifice)

I then use :

- Power Cascade : I use a level 5 spell and 12 HP to deal 10d6 Damage (3d6 base, 5d6 spell slot, 2d6 sacrifice) to 1 target and then it Fork Thrice (2, +1 from beeing Cursed by my previous attack) I can have that target be affect as many as 2 time (half cha, I guess round up so that it hopefully never get to 0)

So after 2 turn, 17 HP (-10 HP, -12 HP, regain 5 hp from Entropic Leech) and 2 level 5 spell slot at level 10 that's 11d8+30d6 to 1 target (Average 154 Damage) and 10d6 (average 35) to another one within 20ft.

At least that's my understanding of the rules. A sample PC/NPC would be very useful

[wardonis]

Xzoltar I got ya.

Let me preface by saying that damage numbers aren't important at the moment. I am currently trying to balance the elements against one another, not against pathfinder or 3.5 classes, that will come later. As a whole we tried to make the Rune Elemental class as flexible, versatile and customizable as possible while still creating a unique solid foundation for each element.



*There are 2 basic resources all of the elements share, Power Runes and Elemental Runes I.E Arcane Runes, Fire Runes, Light Runes etc...
*Elemental Runes are engraved onto the characters weapon and are spent to cast most abilities found on the various elemental pages. For example Arcane Blast Would cost 1 Arcane Rune to cast in addition to the optional sacrificial spell.
*Each elemental starts with 1 Elemental Rune, gains a 2nd at level 3 and a 3rd at level 9. It is possible to get a 4th but that is determined by the characters origin.
*A spent Elemental Rune will regenerate in any round that the character does not spend a Rune, Elemental or otherwise.

*Power Runes are earthier carved, tattooed or branded onto the body itself.
*Power Runes are required to cast Power Rune abilities (abilities available to all elements)
*The player starts with 1 Power Rune, gaining additional Power Runes at levels 4,8,12,16,20. It is possible to get a 7th Power Rune but that is also determined by the characters origin and that is setup in such a way that the Bonus Runes are mutually exclusive... see Elemental Origin found below the chart on the paths of awakening (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/paths-of-awakening/4575739485) page
*Power Runes can be spent to cast Elemental Abilities in addition to Power Rune abilities
*Power Runes require an 8 hour rest to regenerate.

Some elements do have a tertiary resource such as Fire's Wild Fire or Destinies' Luck.

*Sustained Runes are a slotted abilities. They have no cost unless one is listed and are often passive but only usable if slotted. Each element has access to 6 Sustained Rune abilities as they level but will only gain a total of 5 slots. These slots are acquired on levels 2,6,10,14,18 and the abilities that can be slotted are gained at levels that vary slightly by element.

The template page (http://runeelementalb.moonfruit.com/#/template/4576898528]) here explains the basic spread for all elements




As an example I'll use your beginnings.
Human (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human), Arcane Rune Elemental (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/arcane/4575739614), Elemental Reanimation Origin (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/paths-of-awakening/4575739485), level 10, Int=22 Cha=16
Name: Jim Bob

Round 1
Jim Bob is alone and he is facing off against 3 enemies. He begins by casting Arcane Blast (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/arcane/4575739614), this expends one of his 3 Arcane Runes. Any ranged touch ability on the site is by default 40ft unless otherwise specified, this includes Arcane Blast. He elects not to sacrifice any spells when casting or use Mystical Sacrifice so he does 3d8 untyped damage from Arcane Blast and a bonus 1d6 Fire and 1d6 Lightning damage from his Flaming and Shocking enchantments on his Rune Weapon. The target takes the 5d6 damage and is now affected by Entropic Leach. Jimbob Then moves back 30ft. Since he was at 40ft range he is now 70ft away, too far to charge because the attacker also has a 30ft move.

Round 2
Jim Bob casts the Power Rune ability Expansion (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/paths-of-awakening/4575739485)on the target with Entropic Leach. This Uses one of his 3 Power Runes but because of his Elemental Reanimation Origin he regenerates an Arcane Rune so he is back at 3. Now all 3 enemies have Entropic Leach and he is now 10ft away from his enemies, each did a double move the round prior. Another move action won't help prevent the attack so he moves behind a neighboring barrel. All 3 may still hit him but only 1 can charge from their current position.

Round 3
Jim Bob Casts Power Cascade (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/arcane/4575739614) On the any of the enemies. It strikes the target and forkes hitting both of the others and it bounces and splits between them striking all 3 a total of 2 times. Jim Bob sacrificed a 5th level spell into the cast of Power Cascade and fully pumped it up with Mystical Sacrifice. He then does 4d6(boosted class level)+5d6(saced spell)+2d6(Flaming and Shocking enchantments to all three a total of 2 times for a total of 22d6 to all 3 in 1 round and all 3 are now below 0HP. As for the loss of HP, He spent 12HP to boost his class level to 16 for the cast but each target has Entropic Leach and Each was struck twice. At a heal of 2HP per hit with 6 hits the ability effectively refunded itself and if it hadn't a follow up cast of Detonation Wake would have surly healed him the rest of the way up.

I'll add a couple more examples in a little bit

[Occidental]

I'm still looking through everything, but I think I have a strong picture of what's going on. I really like the idea of these classes, and I want to say that first, because I also see some pretty shaky ground under a lot of these, and I'm gonna be mostly talking about the flaws I see rather than cool stuff.

Gripe before the gripe: You use a lot of computer-RPG and even MMO terminology. That was fine for me to read, but only because I already play and immerse myself in lots of those kinds of games. If I didn't, I'd be scratching my head whenever you mentioned "dots" and "debuff lasting 3 rounds", not to mention "slotting a passive" on a class with no otherwise mentioned slot mechanics.

Actual main gripe: This class has too much in it. It's overstuffed. You mentioned on your page that this class was inspired by something (the Death Knight) from World of Warcraft, and I can definitely feel that influence, from the set-up/knock-down mechanics (applying Path Effect or similar and then detonating it to gain something or harm your opponents) to the number of powers given out at each level, to the passive Focus abilities that improve those. These mechanics can be simplified, and I think they need to be simplified, for the Rune Elemental to be playable.

I randomly decided on Fire Rune Elemental and tallied everything they had to keep in mind:

At level 10, on any given round, any given Fire Rune Elemental has:

The ability to regain Elemental runes via not using them, but not Power Runes.
Power Bolt,
Elemental Emanation,
3 Rune Strike abilities to select from,
an "Expansion" that spreads your Path Effect,
the Path Effect itself, something called Smolder, a debuff that gives you easier criticals against a foe it is applied to,
Conflagrate, which occurs whenever someone with Smolder gets hit with Fire from a Fire Rune Elemental, and does lots of fire damage,
Dragon Spear,
Burning Blow,
and Explosive Strike.

None of that covers Wildfire stacks, which count up based on dealing fire damage to enemies affected with Smolder, and then detonate when you complete that same action (using Fire on Smolder'd target) when you have full stacks. Also, add on all of the passive abilities from the various levels of Focus, like applying 2x Cha to all rune-powered abilities, most of which already add Cha as a bonus (does it now add triple-Cha?) and getting a free attack after using Dragon Spear, Burning Blow, or Explosive Strike, but with a -3 to-hit.

And none of that covers any other classes. Arcane not only gets spellcasting, but free metamagic, and they can pump their Caster Level by up to their Int modifier by sacrificing twice their Int modifier in HP. A total aside and not related to my point, but that right there, completely alone, blows most of the other sub-classes you have aside in sheer power. It's insane. Arcane is powered so much by HP damage it might fit better in Blood.
Complexity is not inherently bad. But in this case, I think the complexity you have is hurting the class, and quite a bit of it could be fixed by formatting it differently. For example, the passive abilities of Focus should be distributed to the abilities they affect, and any leftovers be given an ability of their own. The Power Cycling mechanic should either be fleshed out more fully, with more options given to it and more reason for it to exist, or should be taken out entirely and it's effect distributed to the various things it affects. The Paths of Awakening and Game Rule Info pages are roughly the same, and could be collated for easier reading. And more such things...


I really like the idea behind the class though. It reminds me of the best parts of playing a Warlock, one of my favorite D&D classes.

SWORDSAGE EDIT: The upshot of what I wanted to say about complexity, is that having it weakens the flexibility, and modularity of the class, while not actually adding much to its versatility.

[Xzoltar]

I really like thoses rules on concept. You can choose between many paths to play the kind of role you want in a group. I aslo feel like if I was playing this it was just like playing a Video Games (for me its positive).

The problem is that I dont see the big picture. Is it the only class in your World ? What should we do with that class should we add it in a Pathfinder campaign and use regular race with it ? I don't mind that the damage and healing is so high if its the same for other classes and monsters in your world. However as it is its impossible to fit it in a normal Pathfinder campaign.

The healing is good but the damage is so high that if you really go Nova alone in your party you can kill anything of your level in at most 2 turns, if you face a npc of your level you will get your butt kicked so hard that even if you take the Water or Light path to increase Healing you wont survive for long.

So to be able to provide more insight we need to know where your are going with this, a whole new system with other classes or races or just homebrew for pathfinder ? What about monsters, races...

[wardonis]

I do realize it is a large scope compared to traditional pathfinder or 3.5 classes. and it's damage is way higher. But the high damage is necessary at the moment to establish a baseline for all of the elements. Once I have that baseline I can lower it to be on par with 3.5 or pathfinder or just create my own system. I haven't decided yet. At the moment I am play testing campaigns of parties consisting of only various rune elementals. I am mostly using pathfinder rules and the campaign is suited to the rune elementals because I buff the enemies to be on par and scale things to maintain a challenge.

As for the complexity, On the path chart here (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/paths-of-awakening/4575739485) there is a listing of how complex the various elemental paths are. We do plan to eventually toon them down to make them more streamlined so for the moment they are bloated, but I'd rather have too many options to test that will safly give me possibilities of least fun mechanics to remove when the time is right.

Looking at the various elements what have you guys seen that looks potentially fun? Also what looks like it could be a drag to perform and maintain?

[Occidental]

Yeah, numbers can be changed or shifted if needs be. Sounds like you already do in your campaign, you just shift everything else to fit.


As for the complexity, On the path chart here (http://runeelemental.moonfruit.com/#/paths-of-awakening/4575739485) there is a listing of how complex the various elemental paths are. We do plan to eventually toon them down to make them more streamlined so for the moment they are bloated, but I'd rather have too many options to test that will safly give me possibilities of least fun mechanics to remove when the time is right.

Right. I actually picked Fire for my example because it had 3 stars and seemed relatively straightforward. Speaking of the stars system, I'm not sure it accurately reflects how difficult each class is to play. Destiny is very complex at first, but it's fairly simple to determine what the best course of action in each case is. I suppose it gets its own designation.

But I must disagree with the idea of keeping the classes bloated for options to test with, because the very act of keeping them in skews your tests. How would a more streamlined Sand Rune Elemental perform? Could it stand up against the streamlined Time Rune Elemental? I think it would be cool to get some streamlining, because you could make each class unique and independent without creating further and further powers for each one to have that differentiate it, something like only regaining Elemental Runes by taking special action, or each Elemental Path must be applied by a different method (I think this is already how it works? I can't tell, Elemental Paths are vague).

The biggest problem to me, is that because of the volume of individual powers presented to players, and the non-alterability of most of them, the efficient route is to ignore most of what is presented to you and just focus on spamming one thing over and over again. The majority of powers just end up as chaff while the character uses one tactic over and over again. I think I would like it if the total number of abilities tightened, and the number of options for each broadened. If each class had one Core Mechanic, like Fire's Runic Strikes + Wildfire, and Water's aura Healing-and-Harm-over-time, then they could be presented with a number of meaningful choices about how to use that ability.

Streamlining the class, even with 0 changes, isn't too involved. Half of the streamlining process would be doing something like this:



(I took 1 or 2 liberties where nothing was stated, such as how exactly Smolder gets onto enemies in the first place)

Level 1: Elemental Origin, Runic Power, Fire Weapon, Smolder

Elemental Origin: This is only available to characters who have selected Fire Rune Elemental as their first level. At first level, choose one of the following origins. After being chosen, this origin cannot change:


Reanimation: The forces of the elements have brought you back from beyond the grave, imbuing you with supernatural powers as they did so. In any round that you use a Power Rune, you gain back any expended Elemental Runes. At level 9, when you regain any number of Elemental Runes, you gain back all of them.

Study: You sought out the forces of the Elements, enduring hardship and toil to gain the power you now claim as your own. You gain an extra Power Rune, in addition to any others you may possess. At level 9, you may spend a Swift action and 2 Elemental Runes to gain 1 temporary Power Rune. At the end of the turn, the Power Rune goes away.

Birthright: The forces of the elements shaped and guided you since before you were born. You gain an extra Elemental Rune, in addition to any others you may possess. At level 9, you regain 2 Elemental Runes at the end of any round where you use a Power Rune. If restricted from regaining Elemental Runes, these Runes are gained at the first available opportunity.



Flame Runes: Infused as you are with Fire, the Runes of the world are under your power. You gain 1 Power Rune and 1 Fire Rune. Power Runes are inscribed in the flesh of the Rune Elemental, and take 8 hours of complete rest, sleep, or other meditation to recharge, once expended. Fire Runes are Elemental Runes inscribed on the Rune Weapon of the Elemental, and take one round to recharge. One Fire Rune recharges each round that you do not expend one. Upon reaching level 4, and every fourth level thereafter, you gain another Power Rune. Upon reaching level 3, and again at level 9, you gain an additional Fire Rune.





Fire Weapon: Each Rune Elemental has a Runic Weapon that is bound to them, and that they are bound to. You may select one weapon that you have with you upon taking your first level in this class, and with which you have proficiency. This weapon becomes your Runic weapon. If you already have a Runic Weapon, you must use that instead.. This Runic Weapon is identical in all ways to a normal weapon of its kind, save that it is always considered Masterwork (if it wasn't already), and that any extant magical properties are surpressed until it ceases to be a Runic Weapon. In addition, you may use abilities called Runic Strikes with your Runic Weapon.



At first level, you may perform a Dragon Spear with your Runic Weapon. As a standard action, move up to your movement speed, and make a single attack at your highest base attack bonus. If this attack hits, instead of doing normal weapon damage, deal 1d6 + 1d6 per 6 class levels fire damage, plus fire damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

At fifth level, you may perform a Burning Blow. As a Standard action, make a normal attack at your highest base attack bonus. If the attack hits, it deals additional fire damage equal to 1d8 plus 1d8 per 5 class levels plus your Charisma modifier.

At level seven, any time you perform a Runic Strike, you may immediately make a basic attack with your Runic Weapon right after. Treat this attack as a normal melee attack, but with a -3 penalty.

At tenth level, you may perform an Explosive Strike. As a Standard action, make a normal attack at your highest base attack bonus. If this attack hits, it deals 3d6 additional fire damage to the target and all enemies within 10 feet of the target. If the target had Smolder applied to them when struck, this effect spreads to any enemies that take damage from this ability.

At level 13, any time you perform a Runic Strike, you may immediately make two basic attacks with your Runic Weapon right after. Treat these as normal melee attacks, but the first takes a -3 penalty, the second, a -7.



Smolder: You whisper words of power, and your foe ignites, not with bright burning flames, but subtly waiting embers. As a move action, you may apply Smolder to any foe within a 40 ft radius. You may apply Smolder to up to half your class level enemies at a time. Any enemy that Smolder is applied to can plainly see the waiting flame and swirling embers, though they do not gain any special insight as to what it does. When you attack any foe that has Smolder applied, your critical threat range is increased by 2. This is applied after any other effect that changes your critical threat range, such as the Keen weapon enhancement. In addition, any Fire damage caused by your Fire Rune Elemental abilities uses up Smolder, removing the effect but dealing fire damage equal to 1d6 + 1d6 per 3 class levels + Charisma modifier, in addition to setting the target on fire, dealing twice your Charisma modifier in damage each round for 5 rounds, or until the fire is put out.



And so on. I culled quite a few abilities that were scattered around the place and put them into one position. This reads better, is easier to understand, and shouldn't change much of anything. It nests the abilities where they need to go, rather than just anywhere. Most of the Rune classes could be reorganized in this manner.

[wardonis]

I'm not sure what to say about that honestly. While I appreciate what you are saying and can understand where your are coming from for it, What you are proposing will gut the class. It isn't something that would be obvious, but doing what you're suggesting would also have to be done with all of the other elements because they follow a template, and some of the other elements are far more dependent on the abilities that would be cut. It took a long time to create the current template, over 4 years of trial and error, we used to have 20 elemental runes and they regenerated every d4 rounds for example, none of the elements followed a template and there was no balance between the elements. We've worked really hard to balance the elements against one another and to maintain the uniqueness of the various elements we simply need options. Now once we have completed all 20 currently planned elements then we could look into trimming the template but until then I don't want to do that because I feel it will compromise the flavor and diversity of the various elements.

[Occidental]

doing what you're suggesting would also have to be done with all of the other elements because they follow a template, and some of the other elements are far more dependent on the abilities that would be cut

I in no way suggest removing abilities a class needs to function. In fact, if you're referring to the reorganization job I did, I didn't change a single ability. You could easily alter the template to take such a reorganization into consideration, and it would make all of the classes fit better into Pathfinder/3.5's class style, without losing anything.


It took a long time to create the current template, over 4 years of trial and error, we used to have 20 elemental runes and they regenerated every d4 rounds for example, none of the elements followed a template and there was no balance between the elements.

I finally actually looked into the template. It clarified things for me, and not in a way that improves my opinion

I appreciate the effort that you put into the template, but it doesn't balance the classes to strictly adhere to it. In fact, it actually hurts the balance of the Arcane, Divine, and to a lesser extent, Time Rune Elementals, which receive full (except Time) spellcasting on top of all the abilities the template lists out. I wasn't there for your earlier era, when everything was unbalanced and wildly different from everything else, but I can tell you that those spellcasters need to have some power taken from them, even if they break the template to do so. Right now the spellcasting Elementals are what I would choose every time unless I only wanted to do lots of melee damage, in which case I would snag Blood Rune Elemental.


I don't have much more to say. We seem to disagree on a fundamental, and if so, this is where I doff my cap and say "Good luck and Godspeed". I hope the class works out in a way that's fun for you. I've given my feedback.