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aspekt
2015-01-17, 01:16 AM
I'm looking at some games for my group and wondering if anyone with experience with these might want to share their*experiences with them. While some may share a core system I add them because each game will often tweak the core engine.

Trail of Cthulhu

Cthulhu Dark Ages

Monte Cook's World of Darkness

Ars Magica, 5ed

Dresden Files

Also curious about preferred edition for Call of Cthulhu.

BWR
2015-01-17, 03:27 AM
I've played AM a bit.
I like it a lot. The two best aspects of the game are the magic system, which is well-thought through (for the most part), flexible and complex enough to allow a wide variety effects, within the limits of the setting. The second bit I really like is the Covenant, the place where the PCs live and work most of their lives. The way the game intends for the players to design and build the Covenant, the story hooks and roleplaying opportunities that come with running a settlement. The Covenenant is in many ways another character in the group. The basic rules are simple (maybe a bit too simple for some tastes) but there is plenty of expanded rules and subsystems that appear in the various splatbooks. The splatbooks are, the ones I have read at least, at worst ok. Usually they're quite interesting, and the subsystems they introduce can be fairly easily fit in to the existing game or ignored. They also have the brilliant idea of troup play, where each player has several characters to run. One magus, one companion and a bunch of communal grogs. Character/Covenant creation is very RP-driven, with lots of Virtues/Flaws being ones you build or alter stories around, e.g. Curse of Venus, where you always fall in love/lust with people who are trouble, or they fall in love with you and cause trouble.
In short, I heartily recommend at least giving it a shot. It can be a bit troublesome to get into, with its Aristotelian physics, the liberties it takes with history (not too bad, really but some things throw you off), and system, but it can be very rewarding.

Closest thing I've played to CoC is one Delta Green adventure and a short Laundry Files campaign (not technically CoC, but uses the BRP system and is roughly about the same sort of stuff). The BRP was ok, if a bit hard to get into. It may be that my issues with it were mostly the poorly edited Laundry rulebook (it was a mess, hard to find anything in it) and its somewhat poorly designed subsystems unique to that setting. It's not so bad that it can't be played as is - far from it - but there were a few issues which made the game run a bit bumpy. Once I introduced a few house rules it went smoother and was more fun for everyone. So you could say that the Laundry Files is my favorite edition of CoC. For all it's flaws, it did the job it was supposed to - give me rules to run Laundry stories.

golentan
2015-01-17, 03:32 AM
I've played Monte Cooke's world of darkness and Dresden Files. For MCWoD, my advice is throw out all the fluff and just goof off with it. I love the mechanics of some of the classes, but they're not balanced against each other at all. It can be fun if you go in without much in the way of expectation, but if you expect it to play like d20 or WoD or some other urban fantasy? Do yourself a favor and just play that instead of MCWoD.

Dresden is good but it's really dependent on party cohesiveness, and any sort of magical adept is prone to outshine anyone else in the group. That said, it's really good for urban fantasy, and it's pretty simple to learn and play if a bit swingy as to the outcomes of rolls.

aspekt
2015-01-17, 09:16 AM
Thanks for the responses so far. I didn't realize Chaosium used BRP for it's CoC engine. AM sounds really interesting.

I kinda thought MCook's MCWoD would be kinda generic in the Urban Fantasy realm, but it was just a hunch and I wanted to make sure. Dresden sounds more imbalanced than my table would probably like. They'd end up all rolling casters I'm sure, once they caught on. =)

mephnick
2015-01-17, 03:10 PM
I think the consensus for CoC is to stay away from d20 (I've tried it a few times and I agree with this) and that 6th edition is pretty decent. That's the one I played and I loved it. I don't know much about 7th edition.

aspekt
2015-01-17, 09:25 PM
I think the consensus for CoC is to stay away from d20 (I've tried it a few times and I agree with this) and that 6th edition is pretty decent. That's the one I played and I loved it. I don't know much about 7th edition.

Good to hear. That's the imptession I've gotten from web searches. Order placed :)

Altair_the_Vexed
2015-01-18, 04:43 AM
MCWoD is a laugh, but unbalanced as hell. After just a couple of levels, the Mage was just breaking the game. I had to invent house rules to make magic more tame - and even then, he still ruled the party.

LibraryOgre
2015-01-19, 11:10 AM
I concur with BWR regarding Ars Magica; a great game, with a flexible magic system, but the concept and use of Covenants is wonderful and really portable to other games.

aspekt
2015-01-20, 03:04 AM
I concur with BWR regarding Ars Magica; a great game, with a flexible magic system, but the concept and use of Covenants is wonderful and really portable to other games.

That's good to hear from several of you about AM. It's in my amazon wishlist now.

LibraryOgre
2015-01-20, 10:11 AM
That's good to hear from several of you about AM. It's in my amazon wishlist now.

Atlas Games (the house that does ArM) has the 4th edition core book available for free on their website. There were some substantial changes to the mechanics between 4th and 5th, but the world information and covenant concepts remain the same (even if the mechanics changed a bit).

aspekt
2015-01-20, 03:59 PM
Atlas Games (the house that does ArM) has the 4th edition core book available for free on their website. There were some substantial changes to the mechanics between 4th and 5th, but the world information and covenant concepts remain the same (even if the mechanics changed a bit).

Wow. I will look for that download then.

LibraryOgre
2015-01-20, 04:41 PM
Wow. I will look for that download then.

http://www.atlas-games.com/arm4/

russdm
2015-01-20, 07:21 PM
MCWoD is a laugh, but unbalanced as hell. After just a couple of levels, the Mage was just breaking the game. I had to invent house rules to make magic more tame - and even then, he still ruled the party.

Considering that Monte Cook helped write 3rd and 3.5 editions of D&D, I don't find that surprising.

aspekt
2015-01-21, 12:25 AM
I like calling it McWoD. ▪.• (And I say that as a fan of MCook and 3.5/d20.)

Well I've picked up the 6ed of CoC and got 2ed of Changeling: the Dreaming (WoD).

ArM I will get via the free 4ed download.

Did I miss someone mentioning Trail of Cthulhu or Cthulhu Dark Ages?

Admittedly the latter doesn't seem too difficult to just create with CoC or Fudge for that matter. But the Gumshoe system for ToC sounded pretty interesting from the reviews.

Dresden Files sounds too imbalanced to worry about, especially since only one person in my table has actually read the books (not me).

BWR
2015-01-21, 02:53 AM
MCWoD is a laugh, but unbalanced as hell. After just a couple of levels, the Mage was just breaking the game. I had to invent house rules to make magic more tame - and even then, he still ruled the party.

Isn't that pretty much like oWoD? I never really tried MtA but everyone I spoke to said that even with Paradox mages ruled.

golentan
2015-01-21, 07:26 AM
Isn't that pretty much like oWoD? I never really tried MtA but everyone I spoke to said that even with Paradox mages ruled.

Also, McWoD does recommend that everyone play as the same "class," because it acknowledged the classes were unbalanced. I think they intended it as a feature, not a bug, but it still felt pretty buggy to me.

Peebles
2015-01-22, 04:15 AM
Did I miss someone mentioning Trail of Cthulhu or Cthulhu Dark Ages?

I've run Cthulhu Dark Ages in the past, and I can't really recommend it. It's an interesting idea, but put CoC in that setting and give a player a sword, and they'll inevitably believe they can hit cosmic monstrosities with it and not end up as a puddle on the floor. D&D-esque COC doesn't work, and the book add so little to the standard CoC rules that it's not really worth getting. Just my opinion, of course, but I dodn't have fun with it.

Also adding my voice to those advising not to touch CoC d20. Avoid that thing like the plague.

dream
2015-01-22, 03:57 PM
I'm looking at some games for my group and wondering if anyone with experience with these might want to share their*experiences with them. While some may share a core system I add them because each game will often tweak the core engine.

Trail of Cthulhu

Cthulhu Dark Ages

Monte Cook's World of Darkness

Ars Magica, 5ed

Dresden Files

Also curious about preferred edition for Call of Cthulhu.
What kind of game or campaign are you considering running? High/low magic? Modern. historical, or Fantasy? Using Horror as a minor or major set piece?

aspekt
2015-01-22, 04:32 PM
What kind of game or campaign are you considering running? High/low magic? Modern. historical, or Fantasy? Using Horror as a minor or major set piece?

Actually was just curious about those specific games. I'm a number of sessions away from starting a new campaign and thought these looked interesting.
If you have something in the vein of any of the ab8ve I'd be glad to hear it.

Blackfish
2015-01-22, 10:39 PM
I DM a whole lot of Dresden Files for my group, so I can give my insights:

The Mechanics
The rules are pretty easy to learn, and I'd say the largest part of character creation, and the most important, is getting the character's story down. A good story is integral in enjoying the game, because while you might end up chasing vampires down into a cave system, it's really not a dungeon crawl. The Resources and Contacts skills will do the most for providing for you, so that gold nugget you just looted is probably more scenery or a ritual component than anything else.

Some things are very imbalanced, but the use of FATE points can often swing things more than anything else. The Inhuman Speed line is pretty OP, because it scales your defenses like nothing else and Athletics is by far the best defensive skill. Evocation is pretty overpowered because of how much damage you can do, and Thaumaturgy is essentially "How long will it take to do this impossible thing?" Thaumaturgy is balanced if you use it well, but I've had players sit out half the game because they were working on magic that didn't actually get them ahead of the people who were actively playing.

The Skill and Refresh points are a fun way to build a character, and obtaining them occurs through the story. It's always fun to see your stats rise as your character sees more. I do wish there were different Consequence tracks for the various types of Stress, however.

Once you have a little bit of experience, developing NPCs and whatnot doesn't take very long, though you can do it on the fly with a rudimentary understanding of the rules. I still don't think I've read the entire rulebook, but it's generally simple enough that there are no issues.

The Story
I love the setting very, very much. My game is actually a mix of the base setting and a lot of other inspiration taken from similar games and settings, but it's a fantastic take on Urban Fantasy that makes a lot of sense and draws on a lot of mythology. Since the book series isn't complete, there are definitely holes, but I've filled them with horrible, horrible things that my players are slowly uncovering. We've been going for two years now, and we've been so engaged in it that they're only just now about to hit on the main story.

aspekt
2015-01-22, 11:57 PM
I DM a whole lot of Dresden Files for my group, so I can give my insights:

The Mechanics
The rules are pretty easy to learn, and I'd say the largest part of character creation, and the most important, is getting the character's story down. A good story is integral in enjoying the game, because while you might end up chasing vampires down into a cave system, it's really not a dungeon crawl. The Resources and Contacts skills will do the most for providing for you, so that gold nugget you just looted is probably more scenery or a ritual component than anything else.

Some things are very imbalanced, but the use of FATE points can often swing things more than anything else. The Inhuman Speed line is pretty OP, because it scales your defenses like nothing else and Athletics is by far the best defensive skill. Evocation is pretty overpowered because of how much damage you can do, and Thaumaturgy is essentially "How long will it take to do this impossible thing?" Thaumaturgy is balanced if you use it well, but I've had players sit out half the game because they were working on magic that didn't actually get them ahead of the people who were actively playing.

The Skill and Refresh points are a fun way to build a character, and obtaining them occurs through the story. It's always fun to see your stats rise as your character sees more. I do wish there were different Consequence tracks for the various types of Stress, however.

Once you have a little bit of experience, developing NPCs and whatnot doesn't take very long, though you can do it on the fly with a rudimentary understanding of the rules. I still don't think I've read the entire rulebook, but it's generally simple enough that there are no issues.

The Story
I love the setting very, very much. My game is actually a mix of the base setting and a lot of other inspiration taken from similar games and settings, but it's a fantastic take on Urban Fantasy that makes a lot of sense and draws on a lot of mythology. Since the book series isn't complete, there are definitely holes, but I've filled them with horrible, horrible things that my players are slowly uncovering. We've been going for two years now, and we've been so engaged in it that they're only just now about to hit on the main story.

Sounds like your table has a great campaign going.

Is there any talk of them doing a second edition?

Knaight
2015-01-23, 12:13 AM
Trail of Cthulhu is the single best Cthulhu game released, and my preferred edition of CoC is putting it down and picking up ToC (or Nemesis) instead. Basically, it's focused tightly on investigation, with things like combat taking second seat, and because of that it just flows.

Ars Magica is also interesting. The big thing that's interesting with it is the troupe play, wherein everyone maintains a roster of characters, balance is explicitly across sessions where within them one person just will be playing the significantly more influential mage, and that person changes. Beyond that it has a pretty interesting experience system (actually going out to adventure instead of being holed up in a laboratory hurts experience growth), an excellent noun-verb magic system, and similar. I'm not too fond of how the mechanical side operates in practice, but the concepts within it are cool.

Also, did you end up looking at REIGN?

goto124
2015-01-23, 12:49 AM
a pretty interesting experience system (actually going out to adventure instead of being holed up in a laboratory hurts experience growth)

I once played a game like that. It's one of the major reasons I stopped playing. How do you not get bored?

Grinding out skills in your own home without gaining anything else, nothing interesting going on, then weeks later you crawl out of your dusty basement and test out your skills... until you have to train another skill, or improve your current skills FURTHER. Back to the basement...

Knaight
2015-01-23, 01:05 AM
I once played a game like that. It's one of the major reasons I stopped playing. How do you not get bored?

Grinding out skills in your own home without gaining anything else, nothing interesting going on, then weeks later you crawl out of your dusty basement and test out your skills... until you have to train another skill, or improve your current skills FURTHER. Back to the basement...

Because you're not grinding out the skills in your own home. You're playing the other characters - that's part of the point of troupe play. You can bring out your big guns (the mage), but if you save them they'll have a bit more clout to throw around next time. Alternately, they can stay back in their commune, and you can bring out the still effective Companion, a highly skilled mundane character. Yet alternately, you can go for that more esoteric, more flavorful, and delightfully disposable Grogs. You'll be switching within a session or two anyways.

Blackfish
2015-01-23, 02:03 AM
Sounds like your table has a great campaign going.

Is there any talk of them doing a second edition?

I think they're doing a Dresden Accelerated version that's supposed to be less than 200 pages, rather than 400 pages in the current version. That being said, a ton of the current version is fluff and setting details and examples.

I like to run my games story heavy, with enough rules to provide structure but not enough that combat takes forever. If combat takes forever it's because the supernatural thief carrying Medea's Bodkin was just thrown across the underground chamber by the Herald of the Old Ones, and the wizard needs to distract it long enough for the thief to get his wits together and shank the baddie, not because the Pope's hitman has to look through three subtables to see how many status effects he applies to the Wayeb-Sotz dragon while it's chasing Lancelot's descendant through a tunnel.

Also, if you're interested in taking part in a game as a player, I'm coming into some free time soon and I intend to start up a game in my customized Dresden setting on Giantitp. It'll probably be in Slavutych or the Congo or upstate New York or something.

GraaEminense
2015-01-23, 03:58 AM
Trail of Cthulhu is the single best Cthulhu game released, and my preferred edition of CoC is putting it down and picking up ToC (or Nemesis) instead. Basically, it's focused tightly on investigation, with things like combat taking second seat, and because of that it just flows.
Trail is an awesome, well-written and well-designed game that is highly recommended.

It does, however, come with an important caveat: It is a narrative game, designed to tell the story of an investigation with the assumption that the characters will succeed (at least until the Ending).

It doesnīt have a simulationist bone in its pages, which takes a bit getting used to. Itīs good, no doubt, but it does require a GM interested in and able to run a certain kind of game.

Call of Cthulhu d100 (BRP) editions are similar enough that you can usually just pick up the latest one. Itīs a good game built on Basic Roleplaying rules, generally quite intuitive to both run and play and quite simulationist in design. Iīd advise getting hold of 7th ed which should be out in a couple of months, the proofs Iīve seen show a better-designed game than the previous versions (all of which suffered from bad rulebook layout) but the rules havenīt changed significantly.

I am certain the ultimate Cthulhu-game is to be found somewhere in the mix of ToC and CoC, but I havenīt had the time to houserule it thoroughly.

aspekt
2015-01-23, 05:37 AM
I am definitely getting Reign. It's only 10USD on amazon.

And I will be checking out ToC. I do want to see if it's a gamestyle I can learn to GM. As I mentioned the GUMSHOE system sounds intriguing, especially with the reccomendations above.

Also, I'll try to find the Accelerated Dresden Files if I can. It would give me a good chance to learn the game if there is time for a PbP campaign at some point.

Knaight
2015-01-23, 09:26 AM
On Ars Magica - one of the older editions (Fourth, I think) is available as a free .pdf. It's worth checking out if you were considering buying it at all.