The Sad Melee

[bootzin]

Hello, guys!

So, I'm starting this thread because I've begun a quest to make a melee character that is playable at high level campaigns and can keep it up with optimized casters. If we can sort a good way to get to this, I'll make a handbook guide gathering all the information we could get.

First of all, I think that we would need to get as SAD (Single Ability Dependency) as possible, which would mean using basically one single score to pretty much everything. Of course this isn't at all possible, but I'd like to stay away from MAD

Secondly, I don't want gishes. This limits our options, but the idea is to make a melee character that don't really have to worry about AMF or DMZ. ToB and Psionics are well welcomed though.

Thirdly, Dragon Mag is disencouraged, but not prohibited, and so is Pathfinder. The idea is to make a 3.X character, that won't suffer from the notoriety of DM. But again, suggestions from them are welcome.

What I've thought until now is that Intelligence is a good stat to depend on. You can add it to pretty much anything more than once, and without the "X times per day" limitation. You could make a Intelligence based monk, get factotum 3, and even add int to HP instead of CON, although this is a DM feat. Also, Fighter 2 could get you with resolute, that converts your 1/2 BAB to Will save as immediate action (Keen Intellect could work here, but again, it's DM).

Another option would be CHA, which would allow a nice leadership use late game, but I'm not exactly used to heavy CHA characters, so any help would be well welcome!

Finally: Avoid loopholes. This is not supposed to be a theorical build, but something that players could use to play in a Tier 1 campaign (Although I'm expecting this character to be Tier 3). Cheese is probably gonna be necessary

Give me your thoughts about it, and if you have another stat to suggest, just say it, we'll research and find out whether it is better or not! (:

[Renen]

Welcome to Giantitp, where StP erudite is the answer to all your prayers. Though in this case, you are gonna have a bad time. Because no mundane will ever come close to a wizard that polymorphed into a hydra, buffed his STR sky high, and dropped a wraithstrike spell on himself. And that was the wizard "going easy".

[OldTrees1]

It is easier to build a MAD melee(Str/Int/Dex/Cha) that can stay relevant if you are avoiding gishes. After all, your fight will be getting features not numbers.

[lord_khaine]

Welcome to Giantitp, where StP erudite is the answer to all your prayers. Though in this case, you are gonna have a bad time. Because no mundane will ever come close to a wizard that polymorphed into a hydra, buffed his STR sky high, and dropped a wraithstrike spell on himself. And that was the wizard "going easy".

Thats good, because that plan will more or less crash at the first hint of some serious damage reduction.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Martial monk can get you infinte deflection+improved deflection (and arrow reflection if you want that)

Improved combat reflexes+robilars' gambit + dual guided adaptive kukris + lightning maces + keen feet + Karmatic strike (if it stacks with robilars') + double hit + other dual wield stuff + ring of permanent whatever gives you 50% concealment the cheapest = anything that tries to attack you in melee provokes a free attack from you at you dealing twice your wis in damage, if they hit you you get another attack, and if you roll above a 15 you get another attack.

horizon walker for the dimension door bit sounds useful.

1 level of wizard just so you can get abrupt jaunt is worth it if you don't mind the 1 level gish.

perma-flight via swift flight will set you back 12,000 gold.

that leaves saving throws and other odd wizard optimization tricks that i haven't thought of. best of luck.

EDIT: at will invisible/regular mirror image makes it much harder for high level mages to pick the real you, or at least it /would/ if mind blank wasn't so bloody good.

[JDL]

At lower levels a melee character can often keep up with if not outright beat a spellcaster with their combat ability. Sadly, towards the later stage of the game the sheer versatility of a spellcaster combined with their impressive amounts of spells per day render the majority of fights over before the fighter can chew through the inflated number of hit points of enemies. Spellcasters benefit from having the ability to end the encounter within one or two rounds, which simply isn't possible for a melee based PC. There's methods of improving your character's usefulness but you should accept that you won't be the MVP of the party when you're at the endgame.

[Killer Angel]

First of all, I think that we would need to get as SAD (Single Ability Dependency) as possible, which would mean using basically one single score to pretty much everything. Of course this isn't at all possible, but I'd like to stay away from MAD

You clearly need X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus)! :smallsmile:

It won't resolve the basic issue, but it helps.

[Andion Isurand]

continuous "swift fly" item... 2,000 x 2 x 3 x 4 = 48,000 gp

don't forget the last value... figured in to reflect the spell's original duration


" If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. "

at least its still cheaper than a continuous "fly" item... 2,000 x 3 x 5 x 2 = 60,000 gp

[Pinkie Pyro]

continuous "swift fly" item... 2,000 x 2 x 3 x 4 = 48,000 gp

don't forget last value that's figured in to reflect the spell's original duration


" If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half. "

at least its still cheaper than a continuous "fly" item... 2,000 x 3 x 5 x 2 = 60,000 gp

Ah, yeah, forgot about that. My bad. Although if you aren't doing anything with your swift action, a "use at will" version would still cost the amount I listed, you'd just activate it every round.

[Yael]

No Factotum yet? Int SAD is really nice. Cha for Iaijutsu Focus based build. Factotum into Warblade gets a nice combo with Int SAD (mostly)

[Andion Isurand]

To get yourself airborne, how about using a command word "alter self" item to assume the form of an avariel (or of any other creature with your type and a number of HD equal to the item's CL, max 5)? Then you can hold the form for up to 30 minutes (50 minutes at CL 5) with each use.

command word "alter self" item at CL 3.... 1800 x 2 x 3 = 10,800 gp
command word "alter self" item at CL 5.... 1800 x 2 x 5 = 18,000 gp

Sadly, its hard to find any humanoids with 5 or fewer HD that can keep up with a fly speed of 60 ft. and good maneuverability.

[bootzin]

It is easier to build a MAD melee(Str/Int/Dex/Cha) that can stay relevant if you are avoiding gishes. After all, your fight will be getting features not numbers.

If by one side I can't say you're wrong, we have to start somewhere. There are ways of increasing your abilities scores late game, even though you have them low early game. The idea is to be able to handle a build like this in a 28 point buy setting, which means you can't have 3 high scores in the beginning


Martial monk can get you infinte deflection+improved deflection (and arrow reflection if you want that)

Improved combat reflexes+robilars' gambit + dual guided adaptive kukris + lightning maces + keen feet + Karmatic strike (if it stacks with robilars') + double hit + other dual wield stuff + ring of permanent whatever gives you 50% concealment the cheapest = anything that tries to attack you in melee provokes a free attack from you at you dealing twice your wis in damage, if they hit you you get another attack, and if you roll above a 15 you get another attack.

horizon walker for the dimension door bit sounds useful.

1 level of wizard just so you can get abrupt jaunt is worth it if you don't mind the 1 level gish.

perma-flight via swift flight will set you back 12,000 gold.

that leaves saving throws and other odd wizard optimization tricks that i haven't thought of. best of luck.

EDIT: at will invisible/regular mirror image makes it much harder for high level mages to pick the real you, or at least it /would/ if mind blank wasn't so bloody good.

This is the basic idea of Jack, ain't it? But I believe Martial Monk is Dragon Mag, right? And it probably would be banned if we consider that it doesn't need the prereq of the feats. There is, though, a nice monk variant that would save you some money, although it would cost you 7 levels, that is the Dark Moon Disciple Monk, which grants you total concealment in less than full daylight. This allows a lot of flat footed attacks.
The 1 wizard dip is not a problem, I guess, but it would be better off late game
Horizon tripper dimentional door needs 7 levels on it, which can be an option, but a little too expensive for one ability.

So I'd say that we could do something like this for the build:

Fighter 2 is a must. A lot of melees have a low Will save, and adding half your BAB to will saves as a immediate action until your next turn an indefinite numbers of times per day is a bless, specially considering you're probably gonna have a full or almost full BAB. The Hit n' Run variant is also nice because it gets +2 to-hit and dex to damage for flat footed enemies (Specially good considering Dark Moon Disciple)

From then on, we have some options.


Made this one Because it seemed to be a really good option, and you can add int to almost anything multiple times, with the benefit of still getting skills

Factotum 3 would increase your initiative (Dex check) and get you some good bonus on 2 physical checks and skills.
Kung Fu Genius (Feat) lets you use INT instead of WIS for monks, which would allow a succesful DMD Monk 7
Faerie Mysteries Initiator (Dragon 319 feat) Allows you to almost dump CON, as you get HP based on INT
Iajitsu Master 1 can get your INT to AC, although only while wielding a katana (I guess it is not a problem with aptitude?; Also, I believe it stacks with the monk's bonus, as it adds your INT to your DEX modifier on AC, without replacing it, and the monk adds his wisdom to your AC)
Keen Intelect (Dragon 318 feat) also bumps your will save replacing WIS for INT
Swashbuckler 3 Can get you INT to damage, in addition to STR
I don't think there's a way of adding INT on To-Hit permanently, but you could convince your DM that since you're using Kung Fu Genius for the monk, you could also use it for Shiba Protector (WIS to damage and To-Hit)

So this build leaves us with 11 free levels to specialize in a way of combat, which is pretty good. I think the best option here would be warblade, bumping reflex saves and maybe damage against flat footed (Which is not a problem with the monk's concealment) and also a dip in barbarian for whirling frenzy and pouce, key abilities for melee fighters (the rage bc of the extra attack).




It is hard to do a charisma build with no spells.

Obvious choice goes for Akodo champion 2: Free leadership feat and CHA to Saves that stacks with paladin's for a 2 level dip? Yes please.
You could also get the Paladin Variant (Champions of Valor) to get CHA to AC instead of Divine's grace
Marshal 1 can give you CHA bonus to various things (choose 1) with a 1 level dip
Iajitsu Master 5 can give you CHA to Initiative and Damage
Crusader 2 gets your CHA to Will in addition to WIS (do not stack with divine's grace)
Force of Personality replaces WIS for CHA on Will Saves
Again, I can't seem to find a permanent bonus on To-Hit from CHA.

You'll probably want some intimidation focusing feats here, as their bonuses can be quite game changing
Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal can get some good benefits of a high charisma, although one may say it is not exactly a melee character. Worst thing about this build is that i completely bans barbarians from them, so no easy 1 level dip pounce and extra attack



Made this one because it's easy to get this mental stat on both damage and To-Hit, getting it to AC is a little bit harder though.

Shiba's Protector 1, definitely. WIS on To-Hit and Damage is really good and hard to get, not much else from the class, though.
Illumian (Uurhuun) adds WIS to Reflex Saves
Monk 1 adds WIS to AC while unarmored, may be even better than armor, but sadly, can't be magically enchanted
Saint template (+2LA) also gets you WIS to AC
Yondalla's Sense is a feat that lets you add WIS modifier to initiave, but requires halfling
Impure Prince 4 is the only thing that adds WIS to Fortitude, but I don't think it is worth 4 levels.

The best thing out of this build is that you already have a high Will save from your Wisdom score, but from the options we had untill now, I think this is the worst. You don't have much of an opttion here other than going for monk, and I don't think this is an optimal choice.



These abilities are basically necessary to any melee. Not all of them, but at least one you'll end up needing, no matter what.

Strength is really good because of both damage and To-Hit. You can't add it to almost anything else though, so it may not be the best idea to get it really high.

Dexterity deals with initiative and reflex, so 2 things out as well. It's quite easy to add it to To-Hit, but also really hard to get ir to damage. Best options are Shadow blade feat and Hit n' Run figter, but the first one has a really limited weapon range, and the second one is only available on specific situations. Champion of the Corellon also have a few weapons it can add DEX as damage, but requires elf

Constitution is a bless regarding the extra HP you gain each level. It's hard to be a low HP melee (Not to say impossible). If you're a dwarf, you can easily get CON to AC instead of DX through deepwarden (not worth it if you have to get stoneblessed).
Forsaker gets your CON as Natural armor, but it is not worth the cost of giving up all magical items.
Hammer of earth gets CON to damage, but this is too equipment specific, sunder specialist and say bye to your damage.
Also, Steadfast determination, a real boost to Will saves, nasty prereq.




So this was all the info I gathered. After a quick review, I believe we're best off with the following:

INT>>>STR>>>CON>>>DEX>>>WIS>>>CHA
Swap STR and CON if you can't get the Dragon Mag feat that adds HP based on INT

I believe though, that we would have some magical abilities from Factotum, right?

Based on this, I think that we should try our best to put a Primordial template somewhere in here. INT bonus, invisibility at will and some psionics, it really would do tricks in a melee build based on INT.
As for a race I don't really know good ideas just yet

Regarding magical items I'll deal with them a bit later, don't exactly have the time right now, but yes, flying is a must.

Also, for later levels, I've thought of something that could really change the things. The psionic power Fusion would let you have a lot of good stats if you could put it in the build, the sole problem is: It lasts for a few minutes.
So I was wondering, any chance that we can make this permanent?

[OldTrees1]

If by one side I can't say you're wrong, we have to start somewhere. There are ways of increasing your abilities scores late game, even though you have them low early game. The idea is to be able to handle a build like this in a 28 point buy setting, which means you can't have 3 high scores in the beginning

Query: Does MAD imply dependency on multiple HIGH scores or merely dependency on multiple scores?
10,6,6,6,0,0 = 28 (3.5 pointbuy costs). I would call that MAD but you might be reserving MAD for something like 10,10,10,0,0,0 = 30 (3.5 pointbuy costs).

The score spread gives you more bonuses for your points and allows you to use cheaper abilities for tasks(Ex: Str is cheaper than Int for Atk/Dam since it doesn't cost a feature).

However I do not want to derail, so I am stating the option and will only elaborate if you want that discussion.

[nedz]

Higher level play is all about spells, so if you don't want to play a Gish you've had it.

[(Un)Inspired]

What you are looking for is flat out impossible.

There are ways to make an effective melee build at high levels but none that can compete in a party of highly optimized tiers 1s.

Other people are giving you good advice for building a well put together non-caster but unless the character can flex his abs so well that a dozen angels become bound to his will and he can punch a mound of snow so hard a simulacrum pops out of it then he simply can't compete at the level you are requesting.

[Renen]

Yeh. No matter how good you are, a wizard can just demolish the enemy by flexing his pinkie, while you have to run up and hit them.
Then wizard can go to his pricate demiplane full of mindraped slaves, and relax. While you have to trudge all the way to the city on foot.

[bootzin]

Query: Does MAD imply dependency on multiple HIGH scores or merely dependency on multiple scores?
10,6,6,6,0,0 = 28 (3.5 pointbuy costs). I would call that MAD but you might be reserving MAD for something like 10,10,10,0,0,0 = 30 (3.5 pointbuy costs).

The score spread gives you more bonuses for your points and allows you to use cheaper abilities for tasks(Ex: Str is cheaper than Int for Atk/Dam since it doesn't cost a feature).

However I do not want to derail, so I am stating the option and will only elaborate if you want that discussion.

Both of them are different kind of MADs. I know that we will need to be MAD late game, but early on I was thinking about stats at 18 14 14 8 8 8 or maybe 16 16 14 10 8 8.. I want to dump at least 2 stats although 3 stats would be better



What you are looking for is flat out impossible.

There are ways to make an effective melee build at high levels but none that can compete in a party of highly optimized tiers 1s.

Other people are giving you good advice for building a well put together non-caster but unless the character can flex his abs so well that a dozen angels become bound to his will and he can punch a mound of snow so hard a simulacrum pops out of it then he simply can't compete at the level you are requesting.
Well that's why I'm making this thread. I never said I wanted a tier 1 melee, I just want a melee that is playable late game in a tier 1 setting, but the melee is probably gonna be tier 3, still, I'm having trouble finding these advices to get a good high level melee



Yeh. No matter how good you are, a wizard can just demolish the enemy by flexing his pinkie, while you have to run up and hit them.
Then wizard can go to his pricate demiplane full of mindraped slaves, and relax. While you have to trudge all the way to the city on foot.

Well, that's why psionics and ToB are there for, you get teleport, some destructive abilities. Of course you'll never be a mage, but you can easily achieve tier 3

And I'm still searching for a way to get permanent psionic fusion effect, that would allow us to get a full BAB from cohorts, psionic abilities, abilities scores, everything we needed. Isn't there some sort of permanency psionic ability?

[Renen]

Well, psionics is basically magic. If you are saying that because you use Erudite instead of Wizards you have less game breaking potential, then you are only partly right.

Psion is T2 and Erudite is T1. Put either against a melee character and said character gets the floor wiped with them. Its actually pretty difficult to achieve tier 3 with them, as you have to deliberately pick crappy powers.

ToB is a good place to look, but again, if you are comparing them to OPTIMISED casters, then they are nowhere near close.

[(Un)Inspired]

Renen speaks the truth. A melee character cannot hope to compete with optimized casters.

You've asked for a built that can function alongside optimized casters.

It is not possible.

If you'd like to have a build that can be played alongside UN-optimized casters then that is an achievable goal.

ToB will not allow you to achieve the goal you have stated (I wish I could but it can't) you want to achieve. Psionic will, especially when using an StP Erudite but to be perfectly frank, you are playing a caster at that point. Psionics is just another form of casting. That goes doubly so for StP. They just scratched the magic label off of it and wrote psionics in in sharpie.

Don't get me wrong, I love psionic, buying would laugh my ass off if someone came to me saying they had a melee character that could be played alongside an optimal wizard and their character turned out to be an erudite.

[Troacctid]

Secondly, I don't want gishes. This limits our options, but the idea is to make a melee character that don't really have to worry about AMF or DMZ. ToB and Psionics are well welcomed though.

It's actually pretty easy then, if that's all you're worried about. Just play a Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator and be a badass martial initiator who has 9th level spells but doesn't even need to spend any of them on buffs because, y'know, badass initiator.

Just because you have spells doesn't mean you need to use them to gish. Use your spell slots for divination and crafting and teleports and whatever. Boom, tier 1 melee.

[Elinvar]

Hello, guys!
So, I'm starting this thread because I've begun a quest to make a melee character that is playable at high level campaigns and can keep it up with optimized casters. If we can sort a good way to get to this, I'll make a handbook guide gathering all the information we could get.

I'm not really sure this is doable, mostly because casters have powers mundanes simply have no answer to; like summoning, hard crowd control, and things like etherealness and mantel which can lock you right out if you don't have the counter.
I think your best shot is actually to get the best magic items; Something to protect you from CC, something that lets you fly, something which lets you teleport, and a couple of really good weapons made to bypass different sorts of defenses. If you can somehow swing that, you can just warp over to any caster and squish them no problem.

My friend once ran a ridiculous campaign where after being shoved into a blackhole and reincarnating I ended up as a Wyverin monk. Because we were using mythic tier, I ended up being level 13 monk/ swash 1, having a fly speed, seven attacks with flurry at +25 to hit, and a full attack dealing something on the order of 270 damage on average. Because of my swash level I could reserve an attack and parry and ripost another attack latter. I could have optimized more, but I was already breaking the campaign.
I don't know this stacks up to other characters at a similar level, but I could have one shot any of my party members if the casters hadn't taken mirror dodge, which is an instantaneous teleport "no, that doesn't hit me" sort of deal. Everything in mythic is OP.

[Xerlith]

Okay, so I had a build for a friend that wanted something similar.
Here it is:

Primary stat: Dexterity.
Secondary stat: Intelligence.

Race: Gray Elf.


The Alpha Samurai (or as I call him, Tim).


Level
Class
What it gives


1
Factotum 1
Nice and steady beginning, lots of skillpoints. Max Iaijutsu Focus, it'll come in handy later. Grab Faerie Mysteries Initiate and key it to your HP. Grab a flaw (shaky?) and deal with the fact you don't really have much to do at this level when in combat.
Quick Draw is your flaw-bonus feat.


2
Hit-And-Run Exoticist Fighter 1
You get dex-to-damage against flatfooted opponents. Grab Combat Reflexes as your bonus feat. You want proficiency with Katana, Gnomish Quickrazor and Shuriken. Bolas is a good last choice.


3
Sleeping Tiger Monk 1
Grab Kung-Fu Genius (Dragon #319 BUT ALSO in Dragon Compendium 1 IIRC) as your 3rd level feat. Int to AC. Yay.
take a long and hard look at the Decisive Strike ACF and decide you want it badly.


4
Factotum 2
Meh, nothing to note here. Pump some more skillpoints into Iaijutsu focus, you want a 7 here.


5
Warblade 1
Okay, wonder how you're going to get your enemies flatfooted so often? Here you go, a Warblade level. Sapphire Nightmare Blade takes care of that. Your other two maneuvers are Wall of Blades and Steel Wind. Grab a White Raven stance.


6
Factotum 3
Now we take off! Int to Initiative and other goodness abound! Sadly, you have to take Weapon Focus (Katana) now as your 6th level feat. Yeah, I know. Hurts me as well.


7
Sleeping Tiger Monk 2
Okay, two things here:
Invisible Fist ACF.
AND you get a bonus feat in the form of Improved Initiative. So your Initiative goes Dex+Int+2+4 now. Yeah, that should be big.


8
Fighter 2
Well, you can get your money back here and get Mercurial Strike. Iaijutsu Focus damage on all your AoOs.


9
Iaijutsu Master 1
Well hello there. Int to AC - again - and you can wield that katana with the power of your dexterity now. And pump that Iaijutsu Focus. Knowledge Devotion is a nice choice to take as a feat.


10
Swordsage 1
Grab ALL the Diamond Mind save counters. Except that reflex one. So, just two. But grab them. Child of Shadow Stance gives you some miss chance, so you got that going for you, which is nice.
Distracting Ember? Get it.
Flashing Sun's okay.
Cloak of Deception paired with Invisible Fist is nice too.
If you want something bit different, get Clever Positioning and Feigned Opening, so you can move around and AoO on their AoOs. Best paired with Mercurial Strike.
Sudden Leap is good if you pump jump.


11
Warblade 2
IHS or White Raven Tactics.


12
Swordsage 2
Assassin's stance. Also, Searing Charge lets you fly Bounding Assault lets you... Move around. Death from Above is cool, because it flatfoots people. Oh, and grab Craven. +2d6+12 damage on attack. Aaand you can Flurry your shuriken with this for a ranged option.


13
Warblade 3
White Raven Strike? Death from Above? Mithral Tornado? IHS/WRT (whatever you didn't take earlier)? Choice's yours.
Also, good you have a high int, cause you're buying cross-class Iaijutsu Focus ranks.
You are, right?



14
Warblade 4
Soo, swap Steel Wind for Pouncing Charge, I guess.


15
Warblade 5
Um, dancing Mongoose? Or something you didn't take earlier. Two feats to take, both are open. Blind-Fight is okay to have from the Warblade freebies.


16
Warblade 6
Swapping Wall of Blades for Manticore Parry seems good for me. If you (ab)use WRT, here's where you swap something for Moment of Alacrity. IL: 11


17
Warblade 7
Whatever you didn't take above. IL: 12


18
Warblade 8
Sudden Leap -> Quicksilver Motion. Also, a feat. Open.


19
Warblade 9
Avalanche of Blades


20
Warblade 10
Raging Mongoose? Diamond Nightmare Blade? Whatever you pick, it'll be okay.



Okay, so to sum up:
Int to AC... Twice. Int to all Dex and Str checks (Including Initiative). Int to HP. Int to Reflex Saves. Int to flanking/flatfooted damage. Int to Critical Confirmation.
Dex to attack, dex to damage vs Flatfooted. And they'll be flatfooted all the time.
Damage sources: Maxed out Iaijutsu Focus + 2d6 Sneak Attack + 20 Sneak Attack damage on hit. Plus any maneuver you use.


Max Concentration, Iaijutsu Focus and Jump (maybe). Other than that, well. If you want:
You can forget Combat Reflexes and Mercurial Strike and take Knowledge Devotion and move some levels around so you qualify for Shadow Blade early-on, IF your DM alows you to let an Aptitude Katana Quickrazor give you the Dex bonus to damage. Actually, if he lets you, DO THAT. You want to alpha strike anyway.

The levels would look like that probably:
1: Factotum 1 (FMI)
2: H&R Fighter 1 (Quick Draw)
3: Monk 1 (Kung-Fu Genius) (B: Weapon Finesse)
4: Factotum 2
5: Warblade 1
6: Swordsage 1 (Knowledge Devotion)
7: Factotum 3
8: Swordsage 2
9: Monk 2 (Shadow Blade or Craven) (B: Improved Initiative)
10: Iaijutsu Master 1
11: Fighter 2 (Just because)
12: Warblade 2 (Craven or Shadow Blade).
13+: Warblade 3-10.

How do you go about killing things with that?
First round - move up to someone, draw your katana, slash them up with that. If possible, Steel Wind two enemies at once.
Second round - Sapphire nightmare Blade someone with your Quickrazor.

Fun fact: You can wield your Katana one-handed in your off-hand and almost never use it, while Quickrazor-Iaijutsu'ing people to death with the main hand. You don't incur 2wf penalties and still get the Int to AC from Iaijutsu master. Bit cheesy, but... Well. Just picture it as a special style that uses the longer blade to defend and quick, timed jabs with a small weapon to attack.


A Two-Weapon Fighting variant of this one is easy and actually better - a lot.
Drop Iaijutsu Master, swap Quick Draw for Two-Weapon-Fighting. done. Gnomish Quickrazor and Gloves of the Balanced Hand are your friends.
Use your Warblade levels to take all Tiger claw and Diamond Mind 2wf-friendly maneuvers (Avalanche of Blades+Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip?).
This basically lets you overkill someone when you spot them flatfooted. Also - you don't have to jump through hoops to proc Iaijutsu Focus.



If we're talking elf, there's the Champion of Corellon Larethian, so you can run a Finesse build with a two-hander.
Warblade7/Fighter (Exoticist) 1/Champion of CL 2/Eternal Blade 10.
Dex to damage, Int to Warblade, Int to HP with FMI, Eternal Blade Int stuff.

Knowledge Devotion, Expeditious Dodge, Weapon Finesse - that's the meat and potatoes feat choice of this build.
If you dip Crusader and be a...
Warblade 4/Crusader1/Hit-And-Run Exoticist 1/Warblade+1/CoCL2/Warblade+1/Eternal Blade 10 you also add dex-to-damage vs Flatfooted. And heal 2hp/hit.

[nedz]

Okay, so I had a build for a friend that wanted something similar.
Here it is:
<<Interesting Build>>

So how did it actually play ?

Also:
How do you deal with Flying creatures ?
And Incorporeal creatures ?
And Non-combat encounters generally ?
etc.

Furthermore: it seems to be quite poor in combat at low level — so what do you do for the first few levels ?

[Xerlith]

So how did it actually play ?

Also:
How do you deal with Flying creatures ?
And Incorporeal creatures ?
And Non-combat encounters generally ?
etc.

Furthermore: it seems to be quite poor in combat at low level — so what do you do for the first few levels ?
Okay, so that's something I forgot to actually point out:
We started at 5th level.

But, well, let me take a jab at this:
First level you basically run around, using Aid Another and behave as any rogue does. IIRC I theoretized we could take a different flaw (Vulnerable? That one with -1AC) and be an archer for the first two-three levels if needed.
Bolas target Touch AC, while daggers are melee weapons so you can throw them for Iaijutsu damage (later you flip a quickrazor to proc Shuriken Iaijutsu damage on a full attack - or flurry, if Decisive Strike+Mercurial Strike combo is not used).

Incorporeals - you do that as in every other situation: Party wizard casts Magic Weapon or you use a magic weapon oil... Or something. As we started at 5th, i think Weapon Crystals were used to give the weapon Ghost Touch.
Cheese option: Enchant a Shuriken, make it morphing, morph it into a Quickrazor... Yeah.

If that's not possible, well:
take TWO flaws at 1st level, second goes into Kung-Fu Genius. At 3rd level, now free, take Ancestral Relic. Now you can make your Quickrazor (again, Katana's there only for the AC benefit. Make it Warning and Focus for a +4 to IF and Initiative) magic with half the investment.
In this build's specific case, I was his teammate as a DFI SotWR Bard4/Crusader1 into Chameleon 2 (with obscenely high ability rolls, I'd like to add) so I took Craft Wondrous Item and abused the crafting rules a bit pre-game.

Flying creatures? As I said, Bolas and Iaijutsu Shurikens do the trick most of the time. Ancestral Relic for flight. Party Wizard to help. Racial Longbow proficiency (Cheese note: Flip a Quickrazor, shoot Iaijutsu Arrows at target until it's dead. RAW rules for the win).

Noncombat... Well, you ARE an Int-beast. And only the Fighter levels give you less than 4+int skills, so you should be able to rock a skill or two without a problem. Remember, you can add a +3 from Factotum to ANY skill check, so while not much, the bonuses can stack easily. You get a spell/day. Sometimes that's enough. You get Knowledges. You can use Forgery. While socially you don't really shine, you can grab Disable Device and/or Open Lock if needed - but I don't see any reason to do so, since you can Iaijutsu Focus anything not adamantine (or take Mountain Hammer and not care about adamantine as well).

Taking Swordsage early, you can benefit greatly from Distracting Ember (trapfinding for free!) and Cloak of Deception paired with Invisible Fist allow you to be a scout more-or less competently, especially with your Int buffing your Move Silently.

If you want more noncombat utility, taking Human and Able Learner allows for more efficient skillpoint-spending. BUT you lose Faerie Mysteries Initiate. In fact, the original build was exactly this - an Able Learner Human.


That's really the best SADness you can get without being a gish or using an all-rounder like, maybe...

WIS-centric:
Intuitive Attack Wildshape Ranger 20? Probably with a Monk sprinkle for added silliness. Or...
Um...
Intuitive Attack Swift Hunter Wildshape Ranger 16/Scout3/Monk1?
Hell, make it a Mystic Ranger. Gishy though.

I myself don't really like Wildshape that much and tend to stray from it, though.


EDIT: Wait. See that mini-build that uses Shadow Blade, variation of the big one?
Throw that 2nd Fighter level away. And you know what? PUT A CLOISTERED CLERIC IN THERE. KNOWLEDGE DEVOTION! TRAVEL DEVOTION! LAW DEVOTION!
That was in the 1st version of the build and I somehow missed it while rebuilding it here (curse my memory).

EDIT2:
Oooh, another one:
A Dex+Cha-almost-SAD one:

Silverbrow Human
1. Human paragon 1: Adaptive Learning (Iaijutsu Focus (I like it muchly, yep. But you're taking Able Learner anyway(also, nested brackets are cool))). Feat: Dynamic priest. Why not cast a bit? Also, you're a human, so... Able Learner. Grab a flaw for the Quickrazor proficiency if you want, but it's not really needed.
2. Battle Dancer 1: Cha-to-AC is cool.
3. CLOISTERED CLERIC 1: THE DIP OF GODS. Travel Devotion, Law Devotion, something something War Domain: Katana. Feat: Quick Draw
4: Umm, Human paragon 2? Grab negotiator as a bonus feat. progress Cleric spellcasting.
5: Warblade 1. All the Concentration Diamond mind maneuvers. ALL OF THEM. TAKE THESE.
6: Human Paragon 3: Take that +2 Charisma, you beautiful bastard. Get them nines in Perform and Diplomacy. Feat: Improved Initiative
7: Warblade 2. Not much to say here, it's a filler for the...
8: HEARTFIRE FANNER 1. it's here just for that
9-14: Iaijusu Master 5.
15-20: Warblade.

Feats: 9th: Song of the Heart
12th: Song of the White Raven
15th: Dragonfire Inspiration

Okay, that was all over the place. Here's one that makes sense:
OR

Silverbrow Human
1: Human paragon 1. Improved Initiative + Able Learner.
2: Battle Dancer 1
3: Bard 1: Quick Draw
4: Bard 2
5: Warblade 1
6: Cloistered Cleric: Travel Devotion, War Domain (katana!), Strength Devotion. Feat: Dragonfire Inspiration.
7: Bard 3 (Song of the Heart bonus feat)
8: Warblade 2.
9: Bard 4? 2nd level spells are good. Alter Self, namely. Is very good. Feat: Song of the White (d)Raven
10: Iaijutsu master 1
11: Iaijutsu Master 2
12: Iaijutsu Master 3: Words of Creation? Well, whatever floats your goat anyway.
13: Iaijutsu Master 4
14: Iaijutsu master 5
15-20: Warblade, of course.
Same Diamond Mind/White Raven focus.

Drawbacks: Lot of effective Bard levels lost. But they are not the base anyway - you get your Inspire Courage boosts from Inspirational boost, Badge of Valor, Vest of Legends and such.

Steps of working:
1. Grab Slippers of Battledancing
2. Grab a Drill item of Undersong.
3. Perform(Weapon Drill) on people while blasting your Horn for +4d6 Dragonfire Inspiration (May go higher with Vest of Legends, Badge of Valor and an item of Inspirational Boost) and cutting people for xd6+x*Cha-mod damage.
4. Perform (Weapon Drill) some more.

Credits for the Perform/Undersong use go to Crasical. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?53542-Crasical)

Feel free to modify and criticise and take apart these builds as I made them up on the spot anyway.

[nedz]

Well several of your solutions require another character, a wizard, to cast a spell on you, or access to an item. Now any character can do this so they are not solutions offered by your build.

[Xerlith]

Well several of your solutions require another character, a wizard, to cast a spell on you, or access to an item. Now any character can do this so they are not solutions offered by your build.

Magic items are a viable way of enabling a character to do something, as even the Challenge Rating system, while flawed, also takes note of it as a part of character's power. Magic items and Wealth By Level are a viable way of shoring up character weaknesses - to an extent.
This character here can get by with minimal item investment - an Ancestral Relic weapon CAN shore up ALL the weaknesses they have per virtue of full customization - if you give it 2/day Flight, you don't have any problem with flying opponents and melee'ing them.
BUT neither had you before - since you can simply shoot some arrows at them. With the same damage output as in melee, since it's not Power Attack or Str bonus dependent.


That said, and back to the point, neither does a character work alone - at least not by the game's design guidelines. From a metagame standpoint, expecting a magic item source or a spellcasting teammate is a natural thing in and of itself.

If you want to make a true jack-of-all-trades build that DOES NOT use spellcasting or magic items, by 3.5 ruleset it's hardly possible. Even Pun-Pun needs a Candle of Invocation to ascend (iirc, at least).

Taking into account all of the above, you could work - to some extent - with an Artificer as your main class.

But Factotum3/Kung-Fu Monk1/Artificer16 is a strange concept, I think.

Alternatively you could adapt the above build to make use of an Artificer1/Chameleon2 dip, changing the race from Gray Elf to Silverbrow Human and FMI to Able Learner, using Chameleon's bonus feats and Artificer's Item Creation ability (along with Silverbrow Human's natural caster level and some serious RAW hoop jumping) to craft any magic item you want to equip yourself - but that's trying too hard.


How does your standard Bard3/Warblade17 deal with fliers?
How does a 2WF Swift hunter do it?


Also, two charisma builds put up above.

[nedz]

Hmm, well my point is that a Commoner 20 can achieve flight by having a Wizard cast it on him, and also do the ancestral weapon thing.

I am not talking about a Jack of all trades solution, but rather what the character itself can bring to the party.

[dysike]

Just something I saw a while back that might interest you:

Human extra feat: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter 6: Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)
Fighter 8: Blind-Fight
Fighter 9: Pierce Magical Concealment (Complete Arcane)
Fighter 10: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (Player's Handbook II)
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Pierce Magical Protection (Complete Arcane)
Fighter 14: Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter 15: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Claw at the Moon (Tome of Battle)
Fighter 16: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap (Tome of Battle)
Fighter 18: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Pouncing Charge (Tome of Battle), Weapon Supremacy: Greatsword (Player's Handbook II)
Fighter 20: Improved Initiative

Key Equipment:
+5 Speed, Valorous (Unapproachable East), Adamantine Greatsword: 166,050 gp, provides an extra attack at your highest attack bonus when making a full attack, and deals double damage on all charge attacks
+1 Soulfire (Book of Exalted Deeds), Heavy Fortification, Mithril Armor: 100,000 gp + the cost of the mithril armor, provides immunity to critical hits, death effects, and negative energy effects
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5: 137,500 gp, provides a +5 inherent bonus to Strength
Belt of Giant Strength +6: 36,000 gp, provides a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength
Ring of Freedom of Movement: 40,000 gp, provides immunity to grappling and movement impedances
Ring of Mental Protection (Player's Handbook II): 110,000 gp, provides immunity to mind-affecting effects
Mask of True Seeing (Unapproachable East): 75,000 gp, provides continuous True Sight
Strength:

18 base from point-buy
+5 from level ups
+5 inherent bonus from Manual of Gainful Exercise
+6 enhancement bonus from Belt of Giant Strength
Total Strength: 34, with a Strength modifier of +12

Attack bonus with +5 greatsword when charging:

20 Base
+12 Strength bonus
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Greater Weapon Focus
+2 Melee Weapon Mastery
+5 enhancement bonus from magic weapon
+2 charging
Total attack bonus when charging: +43

Damage with +5 greatsword:

2d6 base damage
+18 Strength bonus and a half
+2 Weapon Specialization
+2 Greater Weapon Specialization
+2 Melee Weapon Mastery
+5 enhancement bonus from magic weapon
Total damage: 2d6+29

You spend a full-round action using your Pouncing Charge manoeuvre, which lets you charge and make a full attack at the end of it, while getting the +2 bonus to attack rolls on all your attacks. As part of your charge, you make a Jump check (easy enough with your ranks and Strength bonus) to activate Leap Attack, as you Power Attack for your full Base Attack Bonus, transforming the attack penalty into an AC penalty using Shock Trooper. So, you're making a full attack at +80 damage on each hit, at the cost of -20 AC and then another -2 AC from charging. Now, at this point, the damage on each of your attacks would normally be 2d6+109 (average 116) from your Leap Attacking shenanigans. However, your Valorous weapon makes you deal double damage on any and all charge attacks, shooting it up to a ludicrous 4d6+218 (average 232). This isn't including critical hits, but we won't be needing them, and they're a pain to calculate in 3.5 anyway.

So then, as you charge past the Tarrasque's threatened squares, it takes an AoO against you, using its bite. It damages you some, but it won't be able to score a crit thanks to your Heavy Fortification armour, and your Ring of Freedom of movement prevents a grapple and a swallow. You then make five attacks, at +43/+43/+37/+32/+27. The Tarrasque has "only" 35 AC. The first three only miss on a natural one, giving them a 95% hit chance. For the fourth one, you activate your +5 bonus from Weapon Supremacy, shooting it up to +37, and thus giving that one a 95% hit chance as well. The fifth and final attack is where you take 10, also using Weapon Supremacy, to make it automatically hit. So then, four attacks at a 95% hit chance, and one attack automatically hitting. 0.95 * 4 + 1 = 4.8.

4.8 * average 232 damage on each hit = average 1,113.6 damage in total. The Tarrasque has damage reduction 15/epic, however, subtracting a total of 75 damage from five hits, but that's still an amazing 1,038.6 damage inflicted on the Tarrasque's hit point total of 858 anyway. At this point, the Tarrasque should be down to -180 or -181 hit points, meaning it will be back in action in 5 rounds, and that's why I hope you've got a means to cast Wish right then and there

obviously you can't ensure you have all of the items you need or the 18 starting strength score unless you're using point buy but this build could still do some pretty impressive damage even without, average 556.8 on a charge I think (don't hold me to my math skill)

[(Un)Inspired]

Just something I saw a while back that might interest you:

Human extra feat: Power Attack
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus: Greatsword
Fighter 2: Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 3: Mage Slayer
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter 6: Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer), Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)
Fighter 8: Blind-Fight
Fighter 9: Pierce Magical Concealment (Complete Arcane)
Fighter 10: Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing (Player's Handbook II)
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Pierce Magical Protection (Complete Arcane)
Fighter 14: Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword
Fighter 15: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Claw at the Moon (Tome of Battle)
Fighter 16: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Sudden Leap (Tome of Battle)
Fighter 18: Martial Study: Tiger Claw: Pouncing Charge (Tome of Battle), Weapon Supremacy: Greatsword (Player's Handbook II)
Fighter 20: Improved Initiative

Key Equipment:
+5 Speed, Valorous (Unapproachable East), Adamantine Greatsword: 166,050 gp, provides an extra attack at your highest attack bonus when making a full attack, and deals double damage on all charge attacks
+1 Soulfire (Book of Exalted Deeds), Heavy Fortification, Mithril Armor: 100,000 gp + the cost of the mithril armor, provides immunity to critical hits, death effects, and negative energy effects
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5: 137,500 gp, provides a +5 inherent bonus to Strength
Belt of Giant Strength +6: 36,000 gp, provides a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength
Ring of Freedom of Movement: 40,000 gp, provides immunity to grappling and movement impedances
Ring of Mental Protection (Player's Handbook II): 110,000 gp, provides immunity to mind-affecting effects
Mask of True Seeing (Unapproachable East): 75,000 gp, provides continuous True Sight
Strength:

18 base from point-buy
+5 from level ups
+5 inherent bonus from Manual of Gainful Exercise
+6 enhancement bonus from Belt of Giant Strength
Total Strength: 34, with a Strength modifier of +12

Attack bonus with +5 greatsword when charging:

20 Base
+12 Strength bonus
+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Greater Weapon Focus
+2 Melee Weapon Mastery
+5 enhancement bonus from magic weapon
+2 charging
Total attack bonus when charging: +43

Damage with +5 greatsword:

2d6 base damage
+18 Strength bonus and a half
+2 Weapon Specialization
+2 Greater Weapon Specialization
+2 Melee Weapon Mastery
+5 enhancement bonus from magic weapon
Total damage: 2d6+29

You spend a full-round action using your Pouncing Charge manoeuvre, which lets you charge and make a full attack at the end of it, while getting the +2 bonus to attack rolls on all your attacks. As part of your charge, you make a Jump check (easy enough with your ranks and Strength bonus) to activate Leap Attack, as you Power Attack for your full Base Attack Bonus, transforming the attack penalty into an AC penalty using Shock Trooper. So, you're making a full attack at +80 damage on each hit, at the cost of -20 AC and then another -2 AC from charging. Now, at this point, the damage on each of your attacks would normally be 2d6+109 (average 116) from your Leap Attacking shenanigans. However, your Valorous weapon makes you deal double damage on any and all charge attacks, shooting it up to a ludicrous 4d6+218 (average 232). This isn't including critical hits, but we won't be needing them, and they're a pain to calculate in 3.5 anyway.

So then, as you charge past the Tarrasque's threatened squares, it takes an AoO against you, using its bite. It damages you some, but it won't be able to score a crit thanks to your Heavy Fortification armour, and your Ring of Freedom of movement prevents a grapple and a swallow. You then make five attacks, at +43/+43/+37/+32/+27. The Tarrasque has "only" 35 AC. The first three only miss on a natural one, giving them a 95% hit chance. For the fourth one, you activate your +5 bonus from Weapon Supremacy, shooting it up to +37, and thus giving that one a 95% hit chance as well. The fifth and final attack is where you take 10, also using Weapon Supremacy, to make it automatically hit. So then, four attacks at a 95% hit chance, and one attack automatically hitting. 0.95 * 4 + 1 = 4.8.

4.8 * average 232 damage on each hit = average 1,113.6 damage in total. The Tarrasque has damage reduction 15/epic, however, subtracting a total of 75 damage from five hits, but that's still an amazing 1,038.6 damage inflicted on the Tarrasque's hit point total of 858 anyway. At this point, the Tarrasque should be down to -180 or -181 hit points, meaning it will be back in action in 5 rounds, and that's why I hope you've got a means to cast Wish right then and there

obviously you can't ensure you have all of the items you need or the 18 starting strength score unless you're using point buy but this build could still do some pretty impressive damage even without, average 556.8 on a charge I think (don't hold me to my math skill)

That's pretty low damage for a charge optimized build. Needs more frenzied berserker/ leap attack/ battle jump.

[Urpriest]

This sounds like a job for a Tippy-Factotum, really. A dip in Invisible Fist Monk with Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk and Faerie Mysteries Initiate Necropolitan for Int-SAD, Swordsage dips for various goodies...

[Xerlith]

Hmm, well my point is that a Commoner 20 can achieve flight by having a Wizard cast it on him, and also do the ancestral weapon thing.

I am not talking about a Jack of all trades solution, but rather what the character itself can bring to the party.

Let's assume 18 int from a lucky die, +2 from Gray elf.

That's 11 skills to max at 1st level.

1. Iaijutsu
2. Concentraton
3. Jump?
4. Knowledge (Nature)
5. Knowledge (Arcana)
6. Knowledge (Religion) & Knowledge (The Planes) 2 points each.
7. Forgery
8. Disable Device
9. UMD
10. Balance (put 5 points here, then never look back in your entire career)
11. Point into Move Silently, 3 other into Search.

Now you have a dungeoneering (put a point in there too) skillmonkey that can competently scout for non-hidden enemies (not many are), knows stuff about stuff and other stuff too, can forge any document needed (sadly, he's lawful. So maybe make that Decipher Script) to enter anywhere you want, has no problem disabling traps and can quite reliably use magic items.

That's no wizard, but even 3 levels in Factotum can give you a really competent character. Especially when you consider:
Trapfinding: Unlimited small creature summoning in form of Distracting Ember
Scouting: Invisibilty, if you chain it + Shadow X manuever you can go wherever you want - unnoticed.
Social stuff: Just forge a document and get wherever you want.
Knowledges: That's helpful if played RAW.

At low(ish) levels, the skillmonkey possibilities are enough to get by (except for that sad loss of skillpoints from the Fighter level), while later you can reliably shore up your weaknesses with items (magic and not).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Since psionics is welcomed, allow me to bring in Sir Wisdom the Sad (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7194308&postcount=3). I linked to where I saw Person_Man first mention it.

[bootzin]

@Renen & (Un)Inspired:
Ok, of course that by saying "psionics are allowed" I don't mean StP Erudite, even I would laugh off someone's face if they said me this is their """"melee"""". That doesn't mean, though, that we can't use the help of some psionics. This is not one of those vow of poverty builds in which you cannot use magic, specially because you need magic items, and overall magic in your life. The idea is to make a melee character that is not magic dependent.

@Xerlith:
I really liked the Alpha Samurai build you made, I'd make some minor adjustments though. First of all, many DMs won't let you take monk levels after stepping out of the class, so You'd have to change that monk level to a little eralier or later (IMO, earlier)

Secondly, you can't get mercurial strike with Exocist Fighter. His list of bonus feats become really restricted. Instead, I'd suggest using the Weapon Groups variant from UA, taking Basic Weapons, Light Blades, Sling and thrown weapons, Exotic Weapons, receiving Bows and Heavy Blades from the Elf race subtype and still having one free option. This would get you all EWP you needed to use good weapons, and you could talk your DM into letting you put Quickrazor into the light blades category

Instead of Kung Fu Genius, you could take Carmendine Monk, almost same effect with the benefit of a small buff, and since you're not using stunning fist, you don't need a high wis.

Also, I wonder up to which point is it better to get Warblade instead of Dark Moon Disciple. If you're gonna focus in playing more in others turns than in yours, you don't really need that much amount of levels in Warblade, since maneuvers are gonna be your backup strategy.

And no swashbuckler? I don't think that the Swordsage bonus to armor stacks with the monk one (And also, you don't even have a high wis). Maybe exchange the second level of it and 2 levels of Warblade for a 3 level dip in swashbuckler?

Regarding the TWF, just pick another flaw 1st level and take the feat, you can have both builds together, dual wielding aptitude quickrazors (If you wield a katana in your off-hand you're considered armed, so you can't use mercurial strike). You'd have to convince your DM to allow aptitude to apply with canny defense, tho. If you can't have that, maybe consider dropping iaijutsu master, as the only reason for him to be there is the second AC benefit

I haven't evaluated the possibility of eternal blade. Is it worth it?

Regarding the Cha-based builds, they seem to be nice, and they seem to work, but they also runs out of the idea as well

@Urpriest:
It really is a job for him, I guess that that's what I'm trying to do.

@ZamielVanWeber: That is also a nice build. I like Person Man's guides, they are really good for any melee. Now I'm testing a INT based build, but if I succeed, I'll put WIS and CHA based builds in the Handbook as well

-----------

So, I've started my campaign in which I'll playtest a build to work for this guy. For now, I'm level 3, with Factotum 1/Hit n' Run Fighter 1/Sleeping Tiger Monk 1, as a Gray Elf.
Feats are:
FMI, Combate Reflexes, Carmendine Monk, Weapon Group (Basic Weapons, Sling and thrown Weapons, Light Blades, Heavy Blades, Bows, Exotic Weapons, Flails and Chains), and Improved Unarmed Strike.
I have a +1 Quickrazor, which later will become an Aptitude Pandemonic Silver Quickrazor.
My stats are 10/17/8/19/8/10 with a 28 Point-Buy and Middle age.
I have the Decisive Strike ACF for the monk.

Next level I'll probably take Monk 2 with invisible fist ACF, but then I don't know if I continue in monk class with the Dark Moon Disciple ACF of if I get out of the class and get the remaining levels of Factotum or something like this. What do you think?

I'm using the Alpha Samurai's build as a base to this one, so you know the basic idea of this. Do you think there's any way of applying Canny Defense to Aptitude Quickrazor? Maybe a Morphing Katana?

Anyway, advices would be well welcome (:

[Psyren]

You've asked for a built that can function alongside optimized casters.

It is not possible.

If you'd like to have a build that can be played alongside UN-optimized casters then that is an achievable goal.

This really depends on your definition of "optimized." You can optimize a caster for lots of objectives besides "winning every encounter solo without giving the melee a chance to shine."

And "functioning" is pretty easy. Open the monster manual and pick something CR-appropriate, can your build (help) beat that? Congratulations, you're functioning.

[Nightraiderx]

Considering a TOB build, a Master of 9 Based build could cover alot of basics of magic through manuevers and stances alone.

Shadow Hand: Teleport/Ethereal/Greater Invisibility/Flight
Tiger Claw: Bonus attacks/Charges
Stone Dragon: Sunder/Ignore DR
Iron Heart: Iron Heart Surge/Iron Heart Endurance
Diamond Mind: Bonuses to saves/extra move actions
Devoted Spirit: Fight while healing/Deny Death (Immortal Fortitude Stance)
Desert Wind: Damage Boosts, High Mobility Manuevers
White Raven: Action Abuse/Charge bonuses (WRT and Oder Forged From Chaos)

With a few dips: a swordsage base could easily be Wis dependent (you have 6 levels of play to still get 9th level manuevers)

Swordsages get:
+Wis to AC in light armor
+ Wis to damage with 2 discipline manuevers


It's not SAD, but a WIS/DEX swordsage could get some good AC/damage output using hit and run fighter dips, shadow hand for dex to damage and wis to hit/damage

[(Un)Inspired]

This really depends on your definition of "optimized." You can optimize a caster for lots of objectives besides "winning every encounter solo without giving the melee a chance to shine."

And "functioning" is pretty easy. Open the monster manual and pick something CR-appropriate, can your build (help) beat that? Congratulations, you're functioning.

You're right.

My statement was made with with more certainty than it deserved. "Optimized" exists as part of each of our private languages and thus has no cohesive definition.

So depending on what it means to the OP a melee could potentially compete with one.

[Hiro Quester]

I haven't evaluated the possibility of eternal blade. Is it worth it?


I think so. But I haven't played one yet. But I fully intend to when we play with ToB open.

Thematically and role-playing it looks like a lot of fun (the Blade Guide should be fun both for you and for DM).

I hear good things about a charger based on EB. Get pounce (a level of barbarian lion totem or whatever it is).

W standard Eternal blade build includes Warblade9/Crusader 1. Some people add a level of fighter or barbarian for Weapon focus Prereq. and for bonus feats, I think.

Defensive insight, Tactical insight, and the awesome Island in Time capstone. Plus Diamond mind maneuvers (esp time stands still, and the Nightmare blade one that that does 4x damage if your concentration check is better than the opponent's AC).

An int-focussed melee character could do far worse than this. And I have trouble imagining much better.

[Xerlith]

Okay, so I'm going to take that step by step.


I really liked the Alpha Samurai build you made, I'd make some minor adjustments though. First of all, many DMs won't let you take monk levels after stepping out of the class, so You'd have to change that monk level to a little eralier or later (IMO, earlier)
Thanks. Let's get that explained.
The order here is not really important. The only things you want to keep are Factotum at 1st level (skillpoints) and warblade at 5th (2nd level maneuvers). I used the order I did to leapfrog nicely, gain early-game survivability and Hit-And-Run fighter quickly. You could go fact1/H&R fighter1/Monk2/Warblade1/Fact2, but that means probably throwing about 4-6 skillpoints more into Iaijutsu Focus if you want it maxed at all times (not that important early on).



Secondly, you can't get mercurial strike with Exocist Fighter. His list of bonus feats become really restricted. Instead, I'd suggest using the Weapon Groups variant from UA, taking Basic Weapons, Light Blades, Sling and thrown weapons, Exotic Weapons, receiving Bows and Heavy Blades from the Elf race subtype and still having one free option. This would get you all EWP you needed to use good weapons, and you could talk your DM into letting you put Quickrazor into the light blades category
Well, Weapon Groups is a varaint rule, so if you can, get it -the more power to you. About the feats... I forgot about that limitation. :smalleek:



Instead of Kung Fu Genius, you could take Carmendine Monk, almost same effect with the benefit of a small buff, and since you're not using stunning fist, you don't need a high wis.
A fair point, but for me it's mostly cosmetic difference. You should be using Haste or Expeditious Retreat whenever available, and since your only ability worth pumping a level is Fast Movement, well. I see it as a matter of taste and available sources.



Also, I wonder up to which point is it better to get Warblade instead of Dark Moon Disciple. If you're gonna focus in playing more in others turns than in yours, you don't really need that much amount of levels in Warblade, since maneuvers are gonna be your backup strategy.
I wouldn't. Dark Moon Disciple takes off around 7th level, so that means you literally sank 5 levels of not-much-to-speak-of.
You're right in noticing you're not an Initiator, nevertheless you want the maneuvers to shore up your weaknesses and enhance your natural charm (I mean, Iaijutsu burst damage). With Steel Wind you are able to cut down TWO enemies you caught flatfooted, very early on. Wall of Blades is, well, Wall of Blades, a staple in evading hits.
Later on, [metal] Tornado maneuvers take place of Steel Wind, while all the others take charge of flatfooting opponents in midst of combat. You can do without them, but this requires IMO less hoop-jumping.



And no swashbuckler? I don't think that the Swordsage bonus to armor stacks with the monk one (And also, you don't even have a high wis). Maybe exchange the second level of it and 2 levels of Warblade for a 3 level dip in swashbuckler?
Swordsage Wis bonus is the least of your worries. It works only in armor anyway. BUT:
The +1 Initiative, while negligible, is there. But you're here for the sweet, sweet damage.
Three levels of Swashbuckler give you, well, about a +4 damage/hit.
Two levels of Swordsage + a feat give you 2d6+your level in damage/hit. Against flatfooted OR flanked enemies. It stacks with Iaijutsu. And that dovetails nicely with the Int to damage against these from Warblade 7 anyway (Bit late, I'll give you that). And you'll have your enemies flatfooted all the time.
But you ALSO gain flight (Searing Charge), a trap-finding AND flanking tool (Poor little Distracting Ember), Invisibility, short-range tactical teleportation (Shadow X maneuver).
If you grabbed Mercurial Strike (Your DM would probably let you take it via fighter, really), Feigned Opening is a great AoO generator.
If you wanted another Dex-to-Damage, Swordsage grants you the requisite Shadow Hand stances (You get 20% concealment and 2d6+lvl sneak attack damage, swappable via a Swift action. How cool is that?) to grab Shadow Blade at 15th (If it works with Aptitude Quickrazors, that is).
Overall - That 3rd level Swash ability may be nifty, but I think the opportunity price is too high to pay here.



Regarding the TWF, just pick another flaw 1st level and take the feat, you can have both builds together, dual wielding aptitude quickrazors (If you wield a katana in your off-hand you're considered armed, so you can't use mercurial strike). You'd have to convince your DM to allow aptitude to apply with canny defense, tho. If you can't have that, maybe consider dropping iaijutsu master, as the only reason for him to be there is the second AC benefit

Dropping Iaijutsu master opens a level, but I'd probably go tongue-in-cheek and take either OA samurai (hey, half-off magic weapon) level or a Barbarian level (Pounce! With 2wf! In your first round! And remember you have that flight-charge from Swordsage with a +5d6 damage/hit... Yea).



I haven't evaluated the possibility of eternal blade. Is it worth it?


You lose at least two points of BAB from Monk and Factotum, so it's not going to be maxed out, but... If you have Swift actions to spare, I'd swap some Warblade levels for either 2, 3 or 5 level dip into Eternal Blade.
2nd level gives you Eternal Training (+int to damage/to-hit against one type of enemy OR any Diamond Mind maneuver you need (you won't qualify for DS) 1/day AND a swift action at-will boost that allows you to bypass ANY DR. That's big. These 2 levels are a must, really, now that I look at it. You qualify anyway.
3rd level is a good break-out. You gain another Eternal Training usage, manevuer known/readied and you still get Warblade's Int-vs-flatfooted/flanked.
Five levels is stretching it, but you get another Eternal Training and a stance, as well as a maneuver known. But you lose the Int-vs-much-more-than-Eternal-Training-Target, so I'd say it's not worth it in this case. You won't be getting Island In Time.

So yeah, you can swap 3 Warblade levels for Eternal Blade without any drawbacks.



So, I've started my campaign in which I'll playtest a build to work for this guy. For now, I'm level 3, with Factotum 1/Hit n' Run Fighter 1/Sleeping Tiger Monk 1, as a Gray Elf.
Feats are:
FMI, Combate Reflexes, Carmendine Monk, Weapon Group (Basic Weapons, Sling and thrown Weapons, Light Blades, Heavy Blades, Bows, Exotic Weapons, Flails and Chains), and Improved Unarmed Strike.
I have a +1 Quickrazor, which later will become an Aptitude Pandemonic Silver Quickrazor.
My stats are 10/17/8/19/8/10 with a 28 Point-Buy and Middle age.
I have the Decisive Strike ACF for the monk.

Next level I'll probably take Monk 2 with invisible fist ACF, but then I don't know if I continue in monk class with the Dark Moon Disciple ACF of if I get out of the class and get the remaining levels of Factotum or something like this. What do you think?

I'm using the Alpha Samurai's build as a base to this one, so you know the basic idea of this. Do you think there's any way of applying Canny Defense to Aptitude Quickrazor? Maybe a Morphing Katana?

How's it working out for now? I'm curious about the first 3-4 levels (since after they're not flatfooted anymore, you don't do much), before Warblade kicks in.

Don't monk it out, please. Monk is a 2 level dip because then you're just burning levels for non-existent benefits. Really. Just buy an Eversmoking Bottle and a Blindfold of True Darkness, when Concealment becomes necessary you'll be already able to afford them.

You probably don't want more than 3 Factotum levels if you're not taking lots of Font of Inspiration and taking it to 8th level. And you shouldn't, because the build is feat-starved on early levels as it is.

Also, since you've got Decisive Strike and Combat reflexes, aim for Mercurial Strike. Because Decisive Strike doubles your damage for the whole round - including AoOs. Use Sudden Leap/Quicksilver Motion/Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker/ETC. to the position you'll be able to use it.

I hope I explained my choices - of course, that's only my take on the build. Feel free to modify it if you feel like something would work better, since I haven't been able to playtest it fully (late-level game never happened). But first 12 levels should be full operational.

[bootzin]

Ok, so quite a lot to answer here :P

I had my first adventure with him today, we started out at level 3, so the character still lacks some core abilities, we leveled up to 4 in the middle of the section, so I tested it both levels, here is what I think:

Firstly, and mainly important, the character really needs some ways of generating more AoOs. Specially if going to Mercurial Strike, the fact that you almost never get an AoO from movement, makes it really harder for you to get them. I believe some maneuvers we have have this covered, but you can't use a maneuver and decisive strike in the same round, which kinda halves our dmg output. Maybe we can try something like getting large (which also increase Unnarmed damage) or getting reach increasing feats and grafts.. Thicket of Blades would also help, but need 2 levels of crusader and I don't think it is affordable.

Secondly, Iaijutsu Focus excels up to mid levels, but late game, 31.5 medium damage isn't that much, and AFAIK, decisive strike do not affect it. An for now it is kinda hard to hit (Marbles work wonders, though, specially with quick draw)

It's really easy for him to get the best initiative (with +10, even a 1 is 11), so at least once,you usually get an enemy flat footed.

Invisible fist ACF is GOD for now. Instant 50% miss chance, or a really easy way to make enemies flat footed, the cooldown hurts a little though.

44 HP at 4th level is very good, you can tank quite some, and your 18 (touch) AC helps. Grapple makes you pretty much useless, so escape artist is a must, at least half ranks in it. Hope not to be caught flat footed, and invisible fist if you are, you have 10 flat footed AC. It sucks. Is there some sort of monk armor?

Knowledge devotion will sure come in handy, so I believe it is a must, for you not wishing a completely no-magic build (Not my case right now) Cloistered Cleric is a must

Your will HURTS. Its definitely his biggest weakness. Swordsage maneuvers are needed here, and needed ASAP. Your only high save is Reflexes, which is not that used (Except for traps). Actually I think that Resolute Fighter ACF is now better than before, because you will need to boost your will saves as frequently as you can.

Quickrazor is only good for Iaijutsu, otherwise its 1d4 damage is too low to be effective even early game. With Carmendine Monk, you can have 1d8 unnarmed damage, which is pretty good for now, specially regarding it deals double dmg (Sadly, you can't double dmg quickrazor)

Shurikens do not trigger IF and are 1d2 dmg, so not that good, but Bolas are very nice. 1d4 buldgeoning dmg with a ranged weapon + free trip in which you can't be tripped back. Non lethal only, though, but good for distant battlefield controlling. A little expensive (5gp each, I think), but doesn't break when thrown (:

-------

Now, regarding what Xerlith said:
First: You're damn right, nothing good in staying in monk up to 7th, and no point into getting swashbuckler 3. Swordsage really gives you some bonuses, and so does warblade, and the bonuses are worth it.

Eternal Blade 3 is really better than warblade 8~10, but I wonder if it would do better than Eternal Blade 2, Crusader 1 and Martial Stance (ToB), as this would really boost your AoO capability

And I think we should definitely drop Iaijutsu Master. No real benefits specially since it's probably not gonna work with aptitude, and this also allows us to take Barbarian, since we are not required to be Lawful anymore. Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy variant.

With Pounce our dmg could scale very nicely, specially since we can dive into battle.

Anyway, anything I don't remeber about the build I'll post tomorrow, but this is the sum of the adventure we had. I'd say the Alpha Samurai did pretty well, although he has the problems I told you. Again, any advices would be welcomed.
My 3 next levels are gonna be Monk 2, Warblade 1 and Factotum 2

Wish me luck (:

[Xerlith]

Well, one way of getting AoOs is getting 2 Barbarian levels for Improved Trip and tripping people on your last attack, since then you can Mercurial Strike thm when they're getting up. That puts you two feats backwards, though, since that 2nd Barbarian level kicks out the 2nd Fighter level and you'd probably want Knock-down.

[bootzin]

But also, there is the fact that we dropped Iaijutsu master, so no need to get weapon focus, right?

This makes barbarian 2 a viable option, but I don't know if it is really worth it, specially because it may come a little bit late

---------- EDIT ----------

Is flick of the wrist (feat) worth it?

EDIT 2:

Should I consider blood on the water or hunter's sense instead of a white raven stance on my first warblade level? The white raven stances seem to be pretty bad late game, and you cannot change them. extra hit and damage or the scent ability seem better

EDIT 3:

Isn't Moment of Perfect Mind better than Steel Wind? And I just realised that we still need weapon focus to get into eternal blade, so we still lack a feat. Also, can the Blade guide flank with you?

[Xerlith]

But also, there is the fact that we dropped Iaijutsu master, so no need to get weapon focus, right?

Eternal Blade. We've already established that 2-3 levels benefit the build a lot (DR negation is a big thing).



This makes barbarian 2 a viable option, but I don't know if it is really worth it, specially because it may come a little bit late
It does come late. But it, overall, comes down to your play style - if you want to smack people around with maneuvers, Barbarian dip is not needed.
If you want to move and full-attack while using swift-actions and occasional utility maneuvers, at least that one level for Pounce becomes necessary, especially when you're 2WFing.

Does your DM allow Pathfinder material?




---------- EDIT ----------

Is flick of the wrist (feat) worth it?

I don't really think so. It's nice if you're going to use maneuvers, but if you're 2WFing and full-attacking, it's reaaally lackluster. Again, it comes down to your prefered playstyle.



EDIT 2:

Should I consider blood on the water or hunter's sense instead of a white raven stance on my first warblade level? The white raven stances seem to be pretty bad late game, and you cannot change them. extra hit and damage or the scent ability seem better

EDIT 3:

Isn't Moment of Perfect Mind better than Steel Wind? And I just realised that we still need weapon focus to get into eternal blade, so we still lack a feat. Also, can the Blade guide flank with you?

That White Raven stance is for WRT IIRC. You can swap it for either Punishing Stance or Blood in the Water if you want, by all means. Just take note of your overall maneuver progression.

About Steel Wind - it's a prereq maneuver AND basically doubles your earlygame damage.
MoPF fulfills a different role - if you want to shore up your Will save, do it.
But continuous Protection From Evil item is (IIRC) just 2k gold, so that's that, while Steel Wind is necessary to qualify for some later Iron Heart Maneuvers - it's your choice, if you're targeted by Will-save spells early on, take MoPF.
Personally, I'd probably pick up an item with Moment of Perfect Mind if available, while getting Steel Wind as Warblade.
If that's unavailable, then yes- spring for MoPF as one of my maneuvers known.

Yes, the Blade Guide can Flank. I guess.

[bootzin]

Does your DM allow Pathfinder material?

Sadly, not really. It has to be approved, so no hurt in asking, but the group is a little resistent about it. The agile enchantment, though, is possible.



I don't really think so. It's nice if you're going to use maneuvers, but if you're 2WFing and full-attacking, it's reaaally lackluster. Again, it comes down to your prefered playstyle.

I think youre right. The idea is to (ab)use a little the Iaijutsu Focus, and TWF would allow that. I think, though, that we have to come up with another strategy for level 15th and on or so.



That White Raven stance is for WRT IIRC. You can swap it for either Punishing Stance or Blood in the Water if you want, by all means. Just take note of your overall maneuver progression.

WRT needs one White Raven Maneuver, so we wouldn't qualify anyway. I guess we can have Blood in the Water then? Punishing strike fades away kinda quick.



About Steel Wind - it's a prereq maneuver AND basically doubles your earlygame damage.
MoPF fulfills a different role - if you want to shore up your Will save, do it.
But continuous Protection From Evil item is (IIRC) just 2k gold, so that's that, while Steel Wind is necessary to qualify for some later Iron Heart Maneuvers - it's your choice, if you're targeted by Will-save spells early on, take MoPF.
Personally, I'd probably pick up an item with Moment of Perfect Mind if available, while getting Steel Wind as Warblade.
If that's unavailable, then yes- spring for MoPF as one of my maneuvers known.

It really does double the damage output, and the biggest advantage is that you use your highest BAB, which makes it still a little bit better than +6/+1 BAB. By saying it is a prereq you mean that it is the best maneuver we have available from IH for now?

The adventure we played was something like: Make a will save, the game. Luckly, I don't think it will continue to be like this, so I can wait to get it later. An item with that I believe would be really hard to be accepted. Protection from Evil can do the trick, at least for now.

Can I use the warblade's maneuver recharging system with swordsage's maneuvers? If I can't, should I consider Extra Granted Maneuver? Damn, this build really is feat starved :/

[Xerlith]

WRT needs one White Raven Maneuver, so we wouldn't qualify anyway. I guess we can have Blood in the Water then? Punishing strike fades away kinda quick.

Stances count as maneuvers for prerequisites.



It really does double the damage output, and the biggest advantage is that you use your highest BAB, which makes it still a little bit better than +6/+1 BAB. By saying it is a prereq you mean that it is the best maneuver we have available from IH for now?

The adventure we played was something like: Make a will save, the game. Luckly, I don't think it will continue to be like this, so I can wait to get it later. An item with that I believe would be really hard to be accepted. Protection from Evil can do the trick, at least for now.

Can I use the warblade's maneuver recharging system with swordsage's maneuvers? If I can't, should I consider Extra Granted Maneuver? Damn, this build really is feat starved :/

It's a prereq meaning it fulfills the "Iron Heart Maneuver Known" for the purposes of qualifying for higher-level maneuvers.

Item granting a maneuver? Why, it's in the Tome of Battle, pretty cheap. Novice Ring of Diamond Mind [Moment of Perfect Mind]. It's 3000gp and grants you the maneuver as if you knew it via a feat or class.

No, you can't use the Maneuver recharge of one class to recharge another one's maneuvers.
Extra Granted maneuver works only for Crusader recharge, also.
You basically have to accept that you will be using your Warblade maneuvers most of the time, while Swordsage grants you stances and occasional utility. IF you really want Swordsage manever refreshing, you can get Adaptive Style. WARNING: You'll probably want White Raven Tactics as a maneuver known for that.

BTW, that 1st level White Raven stance that grants your IL as bonus damage on a charge is nice and scales with Pounce beautifully.

[bootzin]

It's a prereq meaning it fulfills the "Iron Heart Maneuver Known" for the purposes of qualifying for higher-level maneuvers.

Whoops, forgot to add that sentence :P
I meant "it fulfills the Iron Heart prereqs and is the best maneuver we can get out of that discipline"


Item granting a maneuver? Why, it's in the Tome of Battle, pretty cheap. Novice Ring of Diamond Mind [Moment of Perfect Mind]. It's 3000gp and grants you the maneuver as if you knew it via a feat or class.

Really? That's good to know, do you have to fulfill the prereqs to use it?


Extra Granted maneuver works only for Crusader recharge, also.
You basically have to accept that you will be using your Warblade maneuvers most of the time, while Swordsage grants you stances and occasional utility. IF you really want Swordsage manever refreshing, you can get Adaptive Style. WARNING: You'll probably want White Raven Tactics as a maneuver known for that.

BTW, that 1st level White Raven stance that grants your IL as bonus damage on a charge is nice and scales with Pounce beautifully.

I meant Adaptive style, sorry about this, I am sleepy as hell.. I guess it is worth it getting the white raven stance, then. About the Adaptive Style I don't think so, his stances are going to play the main role anyway. I'll try to come up with what we have of the build so far so that we can better deal with it.

[Xerlith]

Yeah, the Ring needs you to fulfill the prerequisites. Good news is, Moment of Perfect Mind has none.

If you want to post the build and discuss it in detail, try to use the format I used, or at least put every level in an ordered list. Makes it easier to comment and point out changes.

I have my finals coming next week, so as you can see, I've got time to spare.

[bootzin]

(Forgot to say, we're playing with the PF feat system, so it's one every odd level, this will be the build I have, later on I'll adapt it to a more common version with flaws)

Primary stat: Inteligence.
Secondary stat: Dexterity.

I managed 10/17/8/19/8/10 with a 28 Point buy and Middle Age stats.
Originally: 11/16/9/16/7/9 (STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA)

Race: Gray Elf.


The Alpha Samurai


Level
Class
What it gives


1
Factotum 1
Nice and steady beginning, lots of skillpoints. Max Iaijutsu Focus, it'll come in hand. Grab Faerie Mysteries Initiate and key it to your HP. No flaws. Weapon Groups variant instead of normal weapon proficiencies spares you 2 feats (EWP:Quickrazor and Bastard Sword (Katana)). You want to aim for Light Blades, Basic Weapons, Exotic Weapons, Heavy Blades and Sling and Thrown Weapons. You get Bows and either Light or Heavy blades for being an elf.



2
Hit-And-Run Fighter 1
You get dex-to-damage against flatfooted opponents and +2 Initiative. Grab Combat Reflexes as your bonus feat. Get the remaining proficiencies you still lack.


3
Sleeping Tiger Monk 1
Grab Carmendine Monk as your 3rd level feat. Int to AC. Yay. Also, studying the texts for an hour grants you extra monk levels for the purpose of movement speed, unarmed damage and AC bonus for 24h
Take a long and hard look at the Decisive Strike ACF and decide you want it badly, too bad Iaijustu is not multiplied here.


4
Sleeping Tiger Monk 2
Invisible Fist ACF. You really want this. Also, Improved Initiative (You should have +10 by now, so you'll probably begin most fights)


5
Warblade 1
Okay, wonder how you're going to get your enemies flatfooted so often? Here you go, a Warblade level. Sapphire Nightmare Blade takes care of that. Your other two maneuvers are Wall of Blades and Steel Wind. Grab a White Raven stance. Sole problem here is that you can't use decisive strike with your maneuver. Grab Quick Draw as your 5th level feat


6
Factotum 2
Definitely nothing worth noting here. Best thing is your extra inspiration point.


7
Factotum 3
Now this is really nice. You can max Iaijutsu here (10 ranks) which grants at least +1d6, you start adding your INT to STR and DEX skills and checks, and now you have a +14 Initiative, which is really good. As for the feat, the almost must-have Mercurial Strike


8
Fighter 2
A good thing here would be getting the Resolute ACF. Half your BAB to Will as a immediate action, this is a instant +7 or so on will saves, and lasts 1 round. You could also get a bonus feat such as Weapon Focus (Katana) to get into Iaijutsu Master


9
Iaijutsu Master 1
Well hello there. Int to AC - again - and you can wield that katana with the power of your dexterity now. And pump that Iaijutsu Focus. Knowledge Devotion is a nice choice to take as a feat. Weapon Focus (Katana) if you haven't taken it yet, but that would mean swapping this level with the next one.


10
Swordsage 1
Grab ALL the Diamond Mind save counters. Except that reflex one. So, just two. But grab them. Child of Shadow Stance gives you some miss chance, so you got that going for you, which is nice.
Distracting Ember? Get it.
Flashing Sun's okay.
Cloak of Deception paired with Invisible Fist is nice too.
If you want something bit different, get Clever Positioning and Feigned Opening, so you can move around and AoO on their AoOs. Best paired with Mercurial Strike.
Sudden Leap is good if you pump jump.


11
Warblade 2
IHS or White Raven Tactics. You could get Craven here for +2d6+11 damage on attack.


12
Swordsage 2
Assassin's stance. Also, Searing Charge lets you fly Bounding Assault lets you... Move around. Death from Above is cool, because it flatfoots people.

[TR]



I've made it until 12 because I'm not sure of what exactly I'll make next regarding feats, maneuvers and all.. I mean, what seems best to do is get Warblade 7 and Eternal Blade 3, but I also want Barbarian 1 or 2, and maybe even Crusader, to get access to Thicket of Blades. We've already talked about this, so maybe we should really drop Iaijutsu Master?

[Xerlith]

Eternal Blade gives access to Devoted Spirit, so you can get your Thicket of Blades.

But there is a more efficient way of obtaining the stance - and that would be an item of Devoted Spirit and a wand of Heroics for Martial Stance. Or Martial Study. Of any maneuver you currently need. For, what, 4500gp for 50 uses of a 3rd level wand. Probably cheaper if you can spring for a Wondrous Item of 3/day or something. That's... Actually Eternal Training in a wand. Well, the half of it.

And yes, you probably can safely drop that Iaijutsu Master and Fighter level in favour of two Barbarian levels.
Get Weapon Focus (Quickrazor) at 5th level, then you can even spring for Knock-Down as your 9th level feat.
Trip them for d20+str+int+4 if they are dealt more than 10 damage (Which they will), when they want to stand up, get a free AoO. On which they're flatfooted.

[bootzin]

Quick Draw is a prereq for mercurial strike, so I still need it on 5th level
And I'd need 4 levels of eternal blade to get the stance.
The item option seems pretty nice though. I guess I'll go for it

I agree with 2 levels of barbarian. They are gonna be more effective than those two fighter and iaijutsu master

My group is a little resistant to knockdown, as it is really overpowered, but I'll talk to them

And you said they're gonna be flat footed because of Mercurial Strike, right?

Now.. There is one last matter to be solved: Magical Items.

I really don't know exactly what to pick

I need flight, and I guess I'll get an item or two of maneuvers, maybe monk's belt to increase my unarmed strike damage (as it will be my main weapon when not iaijutsuing). A +6 item of DEX and INT is also advisable, and maybe increase CHA so that it increases Iaijutsu? A pandemonic silver agile quickrazor is also nice, but may turn my party against me :P
For now I have a kaorti resin +1 quickrazor, but enchanting them is hard, so I'll swap their material for another one
Some type of armor for monks (don't know if they exist) would be nice
Is there an item that increases iaijutsu?

Other than this, I don't have any good ideas..

[Xerlith]

There is the "focus" property but you can only apply it to a katana.

[Dysart]

Did I miss something or did nobody mention an actual rogue build?
Simple yet affective and with the correct item purchases/prestige classes it can bypass any immunity to critical/sneak attacks.
Better yet go with a ninja and totally drop the need for some items.

I've never had a problem with having a melee class be outclassed, it's less about being unable to slaughter hoards as fast as an Arcane/Divine and it's more about being that one who can keep everything from touching the flimsy glass cannons and interrupt all the nasty spells the lich is trying to use.

Oh and that Tarrasque killer is proof that if anything spellcasters are boring and having billions of feats is much more fun.