Epic level Duskblade multiclass

[montoya]

So we have gotten to the point in our journey where the heroes will be facing the elite of elite. The party consists of a cleric/DD Barb/FB Wizard/Abjurant Champion( i know) and a 17th level rogue. All part members are 17th level no ECL races. Now the FB does easily 150+ damage a round so I wanted to make quick heavy hitters who can also break down the big guy in saves. I realize they will likely be killed but I'd like to make this a chellenging fight. How would you equip and handle 13th level Duskblade/ 10th level wizard? I was also thinking of making the second slightly different and slight complex. Such as 13th level duskblade/3rd wizard/3rd cleric/4th Mystic theurge. Make this one more of a defensive fighter who buffs and hinders while the other deals out damage. Is there a better build for this kind of thing?

[gorfnab]

Bard 1/ Duakblade 13/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar or othe full casting prestige class 3

This gets you 9th level spells and BAB 18 before level 20. One trick with this build is Whip + Whirlwind Attack + Arcane Channeling Full Attack + Otto's Ireisistable Dance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Make this one more of a defensive fighter who buffs and hinders while the other deals out damage. Is there a better build for this kind of thing?
Crusader 20?

[montoya]

Bard 1/ Duakblade 13/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar or othe full casting prestige class 3

This gets you 9th level spells and BAB 18 before level 20. One trick with this build is Whip + Whirlwind Attack + Arcane Channeling Full Attack + Otto's Ireisistable Dance.
I will have to toy with that thanks! One question, how would I gain 9th level spells? Duskblade only goes up to 6th.

Crusader 20?

I am unfamiliar with it...What book is it in?

[gorfnab]

I will have to toy with that thanks! One question, how would I gain 9th level spells? Duskblade only goes up to 6th.


I am unfamiliar with it...What book is it in?

Sublime Chord has its own casting (that gets 4th through 9th level spells from the Bard or Sorcerer list) which is then advanced with Abjurant Champion and what not. My original counting is off in that build in previous post gets you 9th level spells a level 22.

Crusader (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2645.0) is in Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords and makes a really decent tank.

[montoya]

I will look into it thanks.

[montoya]

Also another question just came to me...If I did decide to just make a dusblade 13/Wizard 11 would his caster level be considered 24 for the purposes of overcoming spell resistance and other such things? Or if he is casting a Duskblade spell and rolls SR check would he roll D20+13?

[Khedrac]

Also another question just came to me...If I did decide to just make a dusblade 13/Wizard 11 would his caster level be considered 24 for the purposes of overcoming spell resistance and other such things? Or if he is casting a Duskblade spell and rolls SR check would he roll D20+13?
Barring boosts (such as Practiced Spellcaster) he casts as Duskblade 13 and as Wizard 11 - and makes a very weak 24th level character. Both classes have their own spell progression tables so they don't interact at all.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Barring boosts (such as Practiced Spellcaster) he casts as Duskblade 13 and as Wizard 11 - and makes a very weak 24th level character. Both classes have their own spell progression tables so they don't interact at all.
The only exception is that you can use Arcane Channeling with any spell you know, not just Duskblade spells. But... Sublime Chord works a lot better as a means of accessing more interesting touch spells, since it starts with casting 4th level spells and its caster level stacks with your Duskblade level.

[montoya]

I thought so, just wanted to make sure. Again these will be "boss fights" for the epic campaign. At least a tough fight I hope.

Looking at the Sublime Chord I notice it requires a bard level and its spells work off of charisma. How does this stack with Duskblade spells and caster level?

[DarkSonic1337]

Basically they don't. Bard is there solely to get you entry into sublime chord, which is where your real casting is going to come from.

A Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 10 has a caster level of:

23 for bard spells (funny how it gets the Caster level boost despite not really contributing to your total sublime chord caster level :p)
23 for Duskblade spells (my bad forgot Sublime Chord added it's levels here too)
23 for Sublime Chord spells. You'll have 3 separate lists of spells known, you bard and sublime chord spells will be based of Charisma while your Duskblade spells will be based off of Intelligence.

That said you will only have 4th level Duskblade spells so you'll only need 14 Int. Start with 10 and get a +4-6 headband and be done with it imo, your Duskblade spells are not where your spellcasting prowess is coming from.

[gorfnab]

Looking at the Sublime Chord I notice it requires a bard level and its spells work off of charisma. How does this stack with Duskblade spells and caster level?

So Lets use my build as the example
Bard 1/ Duskblade 13/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar (or othe full casting prestige class) 3
= 24 levels of stuff

Sublime Chord CL is 23 = 13 (levels of Duskblade) + Sublime Chord 10 (2 from Sublime Chord, 5 from Abjurant Champion advancing Sublime Chord, 3 from Ruathar advancing Sublime Chord)

Duskblade CL is 23 = 13 (levels of Duskblade) + Sublime Chord 10 (2 from Sublime Chord, 5 from Abjurant Champion advancing Sublime Chord, 3 from Ruathar advancing Sublime Chord).

The second part of the Spells Per Day paragraph states "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level." This sets the spellcasting for all of the arcane spellcasting classes in the build to one CL that is equal to the Sublime Chord CL + one of its other arcane spellcasting classes.

Sublime Chord Spells per day (assuming no bonus from Cha) is: five 4th level spells, four 5th level spells, four 6th level spells, three 7th level spells, three 8th level spells, and two 9th level spells. Just as dictated on the spells per day table for a 10th level Sublime Chord.

Duskblade Spells per day (assuming no bonus spells from Int) is: 6 0th level spells, nine 1st level spells, eight 2nd level spells, six 3rd level spells, and two 4th level spells. Just as dictated on the spells per day table for a 13th level Duskblade.

So basically you see that their CL is the only thing that stacks. They have their own separate spell lists and spells per day. The spell save DC's and bonus spells per day for Duskblade still uses Int, while Sublime Chord uses Cha. The one level of Bard is next to useless (in terms of spellcasting) since it is stuck with just the two cantrips at a CL of 23.

[DarkSonic1337]

double post my bad

[montoya]

Basically they don't. Bard is there solely to get you entry into sublime chord, which is where your real casting is going to come from.

A Bard 1/Duskblade 13/Sublime Chord 10 has a caster level of:

23 for bard spells (funny how it gets the Caster level boost despite not really contributing to your total sublime chord caster level :p)
23 for Duskblade spells (my bad forgot Sublime Chord added it's levels here too)
23 for Sublime Chord spells. You'll have 3 separate lists of spells known, you bard and sublime chord spells will be based of Charisma while your Duskblade spells will be based off of Intelligence.

That said you will only have 4th level Duskblade spells so you'll only need 14 Int. Start with 10 and get a +4-6 headband and be done with it imo, your Duskblade spells are not where your spellcasting prowess is coming from.


So Lets use my build as the example
Bard 1/ Duskblade 13/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar (or othe full casting prestige class) 3
= 24 levels of stuff

Sublime Chord CL is 23 = 13 (levels of Duskblade) + Sublime Chord 10 (2 from Sublime Chord, 5 from Abjurant Champion advancing Sublime Chord, 3 from Ruathar advancing Sublime Chord)

Duskblade CL is 23 = 13 (levels of Duskblade) + Sublime Chord 10 (2 from Sublime Chord, 5 from Abjurant Champion advancing Sublime Chord, 3 from Ruathar advancing Sublime Chord).

The second part of the Spells Per Day paragraph states "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class. If she had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a sublime chord, she must choose to which class to add her sublime chord levels for the purpose of determining her sublime chord spellcaster level." This sets the spellcasting for all of the arcane spellcasting classes in the build to one CL that is equal to the Sublime Chord CL + one of its other arcane spellcasting classes.

Sublime Chord Spells per day (assuming no bonus from Cha) is: five 4th level spells, four 5th level spells, four 6th level spells, three 7th level spells, three 8th level spells, and two 9th level spells. Just as dictated on the spells per day table for a 10th level Sublime Chord.

Duskblade Spells per day (assuming no bonus spells from Int) is: 6 0th level spells, nine 1st level spells, eight 2nd level spells, six 3rd level spells, and two 4th level spells. Just as dictated on the spells per day table for a 13th level Duskblade.

So basically you see that their CL is the only thing that stacks. They have their own separate spell lists and spells per day. The spell save DC's and bonus spells per day for Duskblade still uses Int, while Sublime Chord uses Cha. The one level of Bard is next to useless (in terms of spellcasting) since it is stuck with just the two cantrips at a CL of 23.

Thank you both of these make perfect sense now. I made a 26th level Duskblade/Abj Champ./Wizard.....If allowed I'd like to post a link to the character sheet. Obviously this build will be scrapped in favor of the above mentioned build. But I'd like to show it just to get a sense of what I want to create.

[The Vagabond]

Also, nifty thing if you want to add a bit to your inspire courage from bard- see if you can somehow nab inspirational boost, then nab a badge of valor, vest of legends, and a lute. It increases your bard level to 8 (Bard 1, sublime chord 1, vest of legends 5, lute 1, adding one from badge of valor, then another +1 from inspirational boost, for a +4 morale bonus to attack and damage. If he's dragonblooded, it turns to 4d6 damage for one feat.

[montoya]

Also, nifty thing if you want to add a bit to your inspire courage from bard- see if you can somehow nab inspirational boost, then nab a badge of valor, vest of legends, and a lute. It increases your bard level to 8 (Bard 1, sublime chord 1, vest of legends 5, lute 1, adding one from badge of valor, then another +1 from inspirational boost, for a +4 morale bonus to attack and damage. If he's dragonblooded, it turns to 4d6 damage for one feat.

Nab? I am DM for the epic game, I'm sure they could find it somewhere.

[Coidzor]

So we have gotten to the point in our journey where the heroes will be facing the elite of elite. The party consists of a cleric/DD Barb/FB Wizard/Abjurant Champion( i know) and a 17th level rogue. All part members are 17th level no ECL races. Now the FB does easily 150+ damage a round so I wanted to make quick heavy hitters who can also break down the big guy in saves. I realize they will likely be killed but I'd like to make this a chellenging fight. How would you equip and handle 13th level Duskblade/ 10th level wizard? I was also thinking of making the second slightly different and slight complex. Such as 13th level duskblade/3rd wizard/3rd cleric/4th Mystic theurge. Make this one more of a defensive fighter who buffs and hinders while the other deals out damage. Is there a better build for this kind of thing?

Sorry, a DD Barbarian?:smallconfused:

Also, if they've got 13 levels of Duskblade, they have no real excuse not to have 5 levels of Abjurant Champion and 1 of Spellsword for their Wizard progression for a Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Wizard+3 build for +19 BAB instead of +16 BAB and the same CL.

As for the second Duskblade, you can make them a Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6, because Duskblade 13 already satisfies the arcane casting prerequisite of Mystic Theurge. Gets 'em 5th level Cleric spells, 4th level Wizard spells, and whatever Duskblade 13 gets 'em, 3rd or 4th level Duskblade spells. Or Duskblade 13/Wizard1/Cleric1/Divine Oracle 2/Mystic Theurge 6 and get them Evasion in any armor in exchange for a Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion feat and Knowledge: Religion ranks as prereqs.

Please be using fractional BAB, though.

If you just want 'em to have a bunch of buffs running and then provide primary caster support, though, a War Weaver is probably better, I think. Can't recall whether there's any way for a Mystic Theurge or Rainbow Servant to gel with Warweaver, though. Certainly the 13 levels of Duskblade don't really enter into it unless you plan on a bunch of full attack channeling.

Edit: Oh, right, and we can't forget about Ur-Priest if we're bringing up Sublime-Chord. Only difficulty is needing to take an Apprentice feat or something to get the Bluff ranks or eat cross-class ranks. (13+3)/2 = 8, so a 13th level Duskblade should be able to qualify for Ur-Priest, IIRC.

[montoya]

Sorry, a DD Barbarian?:smallconfused:

Also, if they've got 13 levels of Duskblade, they have no real excuse not to have 5 levels of Abjurant Champion and 1 of Spellsword for their Wizard progression for a Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Wizard+3 build for +19 BAB instead of +16 BAB and the same CL.

As for the second Duskblade, you can make them a Duskblade 13/Wizard 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 6, because Duskblade 13 already satisfies the arcane casting prerequisite of Mystic Theurge. Gets 'em 5th level Cleric spells, 4th level Wizard spells, and whatever Duskblade 13 gets 'em, 3rd or 4th level Duskblade spells. Or Duskblade 13/Wizard1/Cleric1/Divine Oracle 2/Mystic Theurge 6 and get them Evasion in any armor in exchange for a Skill Focus: Knowledge: Religion feat and Knowledge: Religion ranks as prereqs.

Please be using fractional BAB, though.

If you just want 'em to have a bunch of buffs running and then provide primary caster support, though, a War Weaver is probably better, I think. Can't recall whether there's any way for a Mystic Theurge or Rainbow Servant to gel with Warweaver, though. Certainly the 13 levels of Duskblade don't really enter into it unless you plan on a bunch of full attack channeling.

Edit: Oh, right, and we can't forget about Ur-Priest if we're bringing up Sublime-Chord. Only difficulty is needing to take an Apprentice feat or something to get the Bluff ranks or eat cross-class ranks. (13+3)/2 = 8, so a 13th level Duskblade should be able to qualify for Ur-Priest, IIRC.

I was thinking about adding cleric levels....Though I suspect the cleric spells cannot be used through "arcane" channeling.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was thinking about adding cleric levels....Though I suspect the cleric spells cannot be used through "arcane" channeling.
They can. It says "any touch spell you know" so harm would be applicable here if there were a way to access it outside Ur-Priest.

[montoya]

They can. It says "any touch spell you know" so harm would be applicable here if there were a way to access it outside Ur-Priest.

Interesting...But I think it means arcane spells. I may be wrong though.