[3.5] Druids and how they feel about devils/demons

[Ketiara]

... So Im pretty sure how druids feel against undeads and children spitting out gum in the woods ;D


But how does druid feel about incarnate evil creatures that doesnt nessesary feel like destroying nature, or the world for that matter, just want to be ruler of living beings? (not nessesarily nature)

Currently im a Druid in the abyss, im pretty smart, and logical in my reasoning and cause/effect/live to fight another day.
resently i experienced a soulaltering event making me a bit more zealous against "something like Tolkiens nature vs Industry". I know im the only one left to fight for/defend nature...

As a char im a true neutral, and im now all about nature, I would think obad'hai would be my preferred god rather than my old god olidamma. If that matters.

So how would I feel about devils, and demons for that mattere (although they are chaotic) Would I be naturally inclined to hate them? or would negotiation with them be a step I would take. (granted that I have the interllect to see through them manipulating everything, and beating them at that game). Would I be inclined to sell my soul to save nature, or are there some Druidic line in the sand I havnt noticed?

If I want to know what 3.5 feel is the essence of the druid, any of you guys know a source you can link me?

Have a nice night
Pete aka Ketiara

[eggynack]

I don't think there's any ultimate guideline on behavior where this is concerned. Really, even when it comes to undead, I think behavior is the sort of thing that should be determined by character over class.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It depends on your characters outlook.
From a broad, multiversal perspective demons (or outsiders in general) are perfectly natural.
Taken from the opposite view outsiders have no business running around on the material plane, so there's an argument for at least kicking them out, if not killing them outright.

Another druid might consider it an act of balance to cull the outsiders of the extreme alignments. Yet another druid couldn't care less as long as they leave alone the forest he's appointed himself guardian of.

One thing to keep in mind is that demons are inherently destructive. It's their basic nature, and it doesn't play well with the general "preserving nature" stance of druids. While that doesn't mean you have to dedicate yourself to hunting them it would at least warrant a certain distaste.
Also, depending on setting their presence alone could be enough to taint any region they appear in, which would be another reason to remove them.

[AmberVael]

The druidic code is really quite vague and undefined, but outsiders aren't among the creatures that they consider unnatural or wrong. Also, only one component of a druid's alignment has to be neutral, remember. You could have a neutral good druid that is a dancing flower wearing hippy who would be horrified by demons, or a neutral evil druid who wields the winds and calls the locusts to destroy towns in the service of Pazuzu.

Its really up to you.

[Cruiser1]

It depends on your characters outlook.
Indeed, druids can be very different from each other! Many Druids are True Neutral, but they can also be NG, LN, CN, or NE. A NG Druid is likely to hate fiends as unnatural abominations, and will exterminate them as zealously as any Paladin. However, a NE Druid may consider fiends as superior lifeforms, and actively help them because nature is raw and violent and all about the survival of the fittest. A True Neutral Druid should be somewhere in between, and will recognize fiends as part of the natural order of the planes, but not welcome on the material. A neutral Druid visiting fiendish planes may be more respectful of fiends in their natural home environment.

[Ashtagon]

I'd say druids are fine with demons and devils... as long as they stay where they should exist. Start summoning outsiders (of any alignment) to the Material Plane, however, and druids would get angsty, because they don't belong there.

[Taveena]

Zuggtmov has a fair few druid worshippers, IIRC. I don't think any devils are all that nature-themed, though.

[Coidzor]

Well, if your character didn't already know they were dangerous before encountering them, they'd know that after the first couple of times random demons tried to kill or enslave them on sight.

Unless they're completely ignorant of things beyond the Material Plane, then Druids would not like Demons or Devils for the Blood War and the whole bit where both sides want to devour the rest of the Multiverse, Material Plane included, if they ever win. But they'd also be unlikely to have any problem with fiends being on their own lower plane being fiends to other fiends and the souls that are supposed to end up on that plane. But what fiend wants to just do that, really?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Even if you're neutral, you still probably have standards. Fiendish shenanigans of mass slaughter, enslavement, torture, destruction and excessively complicated contracts will probably violate those standards. Natural or not, fiends are a threat, and a responsible druid does not like threats.

Furthermore, even if they're not unnatural as such, neither are they of nature - or at least, not of your nature. A fiend has no place on the material plane, and they don't get on with nature. All fiends are inherently destructive and violent creatures - demons are the very embodiment of randomly setting stuff on fire, and devils are seriously into that whole `polluted industrial hellscape` thing, Saruman-style. Both of them, by definition, want to watch the world burn.

Even if they are not so unnatural as, say, undead, these are not things you want in your nature.

[Taveena]

You guys are really assuming all druids are Good - or at least Neutral. Really, the main problem isn't 'demons want to devour the universe' so much as 'demons are Chaotic Evil, not Neutral Evil'. The Thrall of Zuggtmoy class - a demon-worshipping one, as if the name didn't give it away - is specifically designed for Druids to enter.

[Cirrylius]

You guys are really assuming all druids are Good - or at least Neutral. Really, the main problem isn't 'demons want to devour the universe' so much as 'demons are Chaotic Evil, not Neutral Evil'.

Well? Fiends value themselves, their own personal ethoi,and to a lesser extent their societies. Everything else is a resource to be exploited, enjoyed, remade to suit, or ignored.

The best thing that can be said about them from a naturalistic point of view is that 1) they're not technically abominations, and 2) they don't go out of their way to screw with nature specifically. The worst thing that can be said about them is that they will do literally anything to your woods if the profit or personal satisfaction justifies the expense or backlash.

Sure, a Demon might keep those dirty human loggers from encroaching on your territory because it doesn't want the MacGuffin of Light buried in a forgotten pre-arboreal ruin getting into the hands of mortals, say by discouraging the local sawmill industry with political measures... or it might seed a bunch of Ironmaw trees in the area to keep people away. Even better, it might just let a bunch of fire elementals loose to burn the forest to the ground and reveal the ruin so it can nab a corruptible new toy for Team Abyss.

Fiends are naturally destructive and the vast majority place no value on nature at all. While they might not be a druid's natural enemies, they sure as hell won't think twice about doing stuff that will make them enemies.

...that said, if your Thrall of Zuggtmoy discovers, say, a poisonous fungal forest with a circle of Neutral druids preserving it, they'll probably have enough common ground to form an alliance, or even a friendship. But don't think that if said Thrall receives a vision from their goddess to uproot the whole forest so the spores will spread downwind and grow into a much VASTER forest they won't do it.

[Tragak]

Neutral Good: nature must be protected from Evil, and fiends must be fought against

Neutral Evil: nature must be protected from Good, and if fiends manage to destroy the weak, then the survivors will be that much stronger

Lawful Neutral: Would prefer individual devils over individual demons, but would still be very set on the idea that there is a place for everything and everything must stay in it's place. Kudzu is allowed in Japan but never uncontrolled in America, Caulerpa Taxifolia is allowed in the Indian Ocean but never uncontrolled in the Mediterranean, rabbits are allowed in Europe and America but never uncontrolled in Australia, and Fiends are allowed in the Infernal Realms but never uncontrolled in Prime Material.

Even controlled, individual exceptions must be exactly that: controlled (the druid will set clear boundaries and the fiend will be strictly monitored for compliance), individual (the two species as a whole are assumed to be threats, and individuals must prove otherwise on a case-by-case basis), and exceptions (fiends would rarely be allowed to get even that far).

Chaotic Neutral: Would prefer individual demons over individual devils, but would still be very set on the idea that personal freedom goes both ways. Fiends are allowed to try whatever they want, but the druid and his/her plants/animals will likewise be allowed to defend themselves.

True Neutral: would be equally wary of both demons and devils, willing to make individual exceptions but would still want to discourage fiends from trying their luck.

[AmberVael]

...that said, if your Thrall of Zuggtmoy discovers, say, a poisonous fungal forest with a circle of Neutral druids preserving it, they'll probably have enough common ground to form an alliance, or even a friendship. But don't think that if said Thrall receives a vision from their goddess to uproot the whole forest so the spores will spread downwind and grow into a much VASTER forest they won't do it.

And you think all druids would object to that?

I mean okay, some might have some emotional attachment to the forest or cite the potential risk that maybe it won't grow back. Others might go "hm, seeding a larger area? Lets do it!" Being a druid doesn't have to mean fighting for every single bush and mushroom. Nature is harsh, and its cycle is far, far greater than a single forest. If you can create something even greater by sacrificing something small, I could easily see druids going along with it.
A druid isn't going to object to planting trees, are they? This method is a bit more destructive, true, but some druids might not mind that.


And you know what, I might venture that people focus entirely too much on life. Compared to other natural forces, life might as well be seen as a the phase of a rebellious teenager. I could easily envision a druid that revered nature and still cared very little about the forest, the animals in it, and the people that lived on the plane to boot. If demons scoured the plane of life and inhabited it, it would matter precious little- they are only ants scurrying across the surface, minor beings that will in time pass away as readily as everything they destroyed.
And nature would go on.

[Coidzor]

You guys are really assuming all druids are Good - or at least Neutral. Really, the main problem isn't 'demons want to devour the universe' so much as 'demons are Chaotic Evil, not Neutral Evil'. The Thrall of Zuggtmoy class - a demon-worshipping one, as if the name didn't give it away - is specifically designed for Druids to enter.

It does demonstrate an ethos that is fundamentally at odds with anyone who likes having the universe where it is because that's where Nature keeps her stuff, however.

That's also problematic, yes. But less than relevant because this particular Druid isn't chomping at the bit to worship Zuggtmoy like a chump.

Granted, the OP was far too enamored with the idea of selling his character's soul to demons of all things to protect Nature. Which was weird because only Devils really make pacts for people's souls, per se, but what can you do?


And you know what, I might venture that people focus entirely too much on life. Compared to other natural forces, life might as well be seen as a the phase of a rebellious teenager. I could easily envision a druid that revered nature and still cared very little about the forest, the animals in it, and the people that lived on the plane to boot. If demons scoured the plane of life and inhabited it, it would matter precious little- they are only ants scurrying across the surface, minor beings that will in time pass away as readily as everything they destroyed.

Druids aren't necessarily going to interpret Outsiders as a form of life or part of nature being that many of them are actually post-life entities. Sure, not all Druids, probably not even most Druids, will have the necessary knowledge to know that, but there's that sticky wicket to overcome.

Even if they interpret outsiders as part of nature, having them completely unbalance and destroy the ecosystem of the material plane would generally be against the ethos of the vast majority of druids, seeing as how destroying ecosystems is the opposite of their shtick. Also, they're generally against exploitation and control over non-living natural resources that don't disrupt ecosystems either.

Further, while life is entropy, life is also one of the few mechanisms by which Nature can stave off or reverse entropy in places. Eliminating that takes away one of Nature's tools and I can tell you that even if the particular group of fiends that takes over the material plane doesn't just outright destroy it, they're not going to step into that role.

I'm still not sure how you believe there can be Nature there if an entire planet gets destroyed by conscious entities, though, even going with an interpretation that leaves the material plane intact post-Demonic victory in the blood war. :smallconfused:

Also, there's an annoying little voice in the back of my head pointing out that a Druid that wouldn't draw the line at an entire planet full of life and other non-living natural phenomena getting destroyed is going to be pretty phlegmatic about human loggers or dwarven miners. So what *could* motivate them while maintaining the minimum necessary oomph to actually be Druids rather than Ex-Druids? :/


And nature would go on.

So, sure, if you go with a completely different interpretation of nature, druids, and demons, you can find something workable.

Unless I'm very much misremembering the end-game for Demonkind if they win the Blood War. :smallconfused:

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that demons are naturally occurring but devils are not.

[AmberVael]

Druids aren't necessarily going to interpret Outsiders as a form of life or part of nature being that many of them are actually post-life entities. Sure, not all Druids, probably not even most Druids, will have the necessary knowledge to know that, but there's that sticky wicket to overcome.

Even if they interpret outsiders as part of nature, having them completely unbalance and destroy the ecosystem of the material plane would generally be against the ethos of the vast majority of druids, seeing as how destroying ecosystems is the opposite of their shtick. Also, they're generally against exploitation and control over non-living natural resources that don't disrupt ecosystems either.

Further, while life is entropy, life is also one of the few mechanisms by which Nature can stave off or reverse entropy in places. Eliminating that takes away one of Nature's tools and I can tell you that even if the particular group of fiends that takes over the material plane doesn't just outright destroy it, they're not going to step into that role.

I'm still not sure how you believe there can be Nature there if an entire planet gets destroyed by conscious entities, though, even going with an interpretation that leaves the material plane intact post-Demonic victory in the blood war. :smallconfused:
It doesn't really matter whether outsiders are life or part of nature or not. The point is that there is substantially more to nature than the birds, bees, and trees. A druid draws power from the storm and sun, the earth and the ocean just as readily. Unless demons disintegrate the entire plane (and more) then there is still nature to go around. Life is but one piece, and frankly it was not the first and probably won't be the last either. And if it needs to be around then it'll probably make a return eventually because it would take a massive feat to get rid of the very potential of life.

In short, nature is a really, really big thing that doesn't have to care about the small particulars of what is going on. Scouring a planet might be a big thing... but frankly its no bigger than what nature itself might accomplish or do. You don't so much change nature as play a role for it or play with the sandbox it has provided.


Also, there's an annoying little voice in the back of my head pointing out that a Druid that wouldn't draw the line at an entire planet full of life and other non-living natural phenomena getting destroyed is going to be pretty phlegmatic about human loggers or dwarven miners. So what *could* motivate them while maintaining the minimum necessary oomph to actually be Druids rather than Ex-Druids? :/
Druids need to revere nature. That's all. If you're the kind of druid who can see that nature is frankly far above all the day to day (or year to year or century to century) minutiae, you can still revere nature while not even batting an eye at human loggers. Or for that matter, an ice age that freezes the world solid and changes things more thoroughly than a little human with a bit of sharpened iron ever could. A druid like that would barely have motivation to raise their hand to help nature at all... largely because nature doesn't need them to. Rather, that druid would draw their power and perspective from natural forces- instead of being a champion, they're a pupil, an acolyte trying to understand and learn from something far greater than they are (which frankly makes more sense to me than a druid that seeks to use magic to maintain the status quo).


So, sure, if you go with a completely different interpretation of nature, druids, and demons, you can find something workable.

Unless I'm very much misremembering the end-game for Demonkind if they win the Blood War. :smallconfused:
The idea of there being a single endgame for demons is baffling to me. Also, I don't know that there is an endgame beyond "hey those devils over there are jerks lets kill them all because we hate them." Let alone one that actually has to do with the material plane. Some specific demon lords might have goals. Other demon lords might have other goals.

Its worth noting that there are plenty of demons at least that are very tied to the natural world. There are demon lords of beasts and vermin, air and birds, fungi and plants. There are plenty of demon lords that will fight for the natural world, even life- even to an extent that the material realm might well be overrun by life and nature in general rather than stripped clean of it.