Full Plate

[Angelalex242]

Since wealth by level is gone, by what level do you expect your heavy armor users to be sporting a magnificent set of Full Plate, on average?

[Daishain]

Can't say for sure, too many variables.

Of course, based on the way challenges ramp up, I'd say L10 at the latest unless one is trying to make things more difficult.

[Jeraa]

There are guidelines for starting wealth on page 38 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. Using those, you won't have enough money for full plate unless you start in the 11th-16th level tier.

[Eslin]

NPCs like the knight are CR 3 and have plate armour, so it's obviously appropriate loot from 3 or so onwards. From experience, if players who wear heavy armour don't have plate by level 5 or 6 they're not trying.

[Kryx]

Deconstructing 5e Typical Wealth By Level (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2r8kci/deconstructing_5e_typical_wealth_by_level/) shows a mathematical analysis of a pseudo WBL based on the average from the treasure tables.

You should probably add a curve to it to minimize the jump at the different tiers. I'd guess around 5th level for plate.

[Knaight]

Deconstructing 5e Typical Wealth By Level (http://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2r8kci/deconstructing_5e_typical_wealth_by_level/) shows a mathematical analysis of a pseudo WBL based on the average from the treasure tables.

You should probably add a curve to it to minimize the jump at the different tiers. I'd guess around 5th level for plate.

Given that it goes from 560 to 6500 over the level, and plate is 1500, this seems pretty reasonable. With that said, the assumptions made ignore any accumulation of money from individual monsters, money from things other than hoards (e.g. being paid), and other such things. If the modules are supposed to be indicative of play, starting with Lost Mines of Phandelver, and the general patterns of play established in previous editions hold, these can generally be assumed to be some component of incoming wealth. 4th level seems pretty likely with them in effect.

[NotVeryBatman]

4th or 5th level seems about right. They make great gifts from patrons once the characters reach beyond that local hero phase. I try to discourage looting such items due to pacing and realism issues.

[Slipperychicken]

Can't say for sure, too many variables.

Of course, based on the way challenges ramp up, I'd say L10 at the latest unless one is trying to make things more difficult.

You could always trade one of those "priceless" [eye roll] magic items for a set of fullplate.

[GiantOctopodes]

You could always trade one of those "priceless" [eye roll] magic items for a set of fullplate.

It does strike me as completely nonsensical that magic items are so rare and priceless they are not generally speaking available for sale, yet if you were to put a price on em, they'd be only 101-500 gold, while a suit of full plate, which CR3 creatures wear without batting an eye, is worth 1500 gold.

[Angelalex242]

Full Plate's price is probably a holdover from 3.5

'If it ain't broke don't fix it.'

[Sidmen]

4th or 5th level seems about right. They make great gifts from patrons once the characters reach beyond that local hero phase. I try to discourage looting such items due to pacing and realism issues.
Pacing is reasonable, if you want to keep a high tempo after killing armored foes.

But realism? You are aware that armor was one of the first things looted from fallen foes on the battlefield, right. Someone with a chain hauberk was a heavily armored man for much of the middle ages, and any armsman who could peal a fallen foe out of that hauberk increased his survivability by many times. Pieces of plate armor were even more valuable, and more quickly stolen from the dead.

[MeeposFire]

Full Plate's price is probably a holdover from 3.5

'If it ain't broke don't fix it.'

Actually full plate has always been expensive. Heck that is even historically accurate in that it is very expensive to buy.

[Pex]

There are guidelines for starting wealth on page 38 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. Using those, you won't have enough money for full plate unless you start in the 11th-16th level tier.

That is being very stingy to the extreme. A fighter is not going to have 1,500 gp before level 11? Either the table meant non-magical when using the word "normal" or someone at WOTC really hates characters having nice things. I've said it before. 5E really went overboard trying to cut back on the relative ease of getting magic items of 3E and 4E. I get it; you don't want Monty Haulism, but the solution to that is not Ebeneezer Scroogism.

[jaydubs]

If you want to throw armored enemies at PCs but don't want them looting the same armor, it's not totally unreasonable to say that full plate has to be fitted to the individual user. I never bother with it myself (heavy armor has its own disadvantages), but it's a tool to keep in mind depending on the campaign.

[Ashrym]

5th level seems about right.

[Angelalex242]

Eh. The cost of Full Plate in 3.5 was relatively trivial. It cost less then your basic +1 sword, anyway.

But it's because money no longer buys magic that full plate's cost comparatively skyrocketed.

It's reversed inflation, really.

Compare what $1500 dollars buys today compared to what it bought 100 years ago. 5e is set that 100 years ago. 3.5 is set now.

[MaxWilson]

That is being very stingy to the extreme. A fighter is not going to have 1,500 gp before level 11? Either the table meant non-magical when using the word "normal" or someone at WOTC really hates characters having nice things. I've said it before. 5E really went overboard trying to cut back on the relative ease of getting magic items of 3E and 4E. I get it; you don't want Monty Haulism, but the solution to that is not Ebeneezer Scroogism.

Whoever wrote the table doesn't "hate characters having nice things," they just think those things should be earned during play.

[Angelalex242]

Remember what I said about 3.5. These players are used to full plate by level 3, tops.

[Knaight]

Actually full plate has always been expensive. Heck that is even historically accurate in that it is very expensive to buy.

It's 20 times as expensive as a mail hauberk, that's not exactly historically accurate. By the time transitional armors were being phased into actual plate, labor prices had gone up considerably relative to pre-black-death times, and what little mail was still in use (and there was a surprisingly high amount) was pretty expensive, often as much as comparable plate pieces.

Armor in general has generally been really expensive though, particularly whatever was on the high end at the time. The late medieval period where full plate was around was actually one of the places where armor was extremely prevalent and comparatively cheap, and even then it came with a hefty price tag. A mail hauberk in the early or high medieval period was a purchase along the lines of a house.

[Eslin]

New question: Why are there so many enchanted heavy armours that aren't full plate in the DMG? Arguments about fighters with full plate +3 and a +3 shield crop up, people go 'well there's only a chance of +3 full plate, you might get +3 splint mail instead'. So... why? Why would anyone ever enchant splint mail when the price difference between that and full plate is negligible compared to the cost of enchanting it? You'd get the exact same thing but way cheaper with +2 plate armour.

Ditto enchanted padded armour, leather armour, chain shirt, hide, ring mail and scale mail - all these things are flat out inferior to other armours but sometimes used because they're cheaper, why would there ever be magical versions?

[Knaight]

New question: Why are there so many enchanted heavy armours that aren't full plate in the DMG? Arguments about fighters with full plate +3 and a +3 shield crop up, people go 'well there's only a chance of +3 full plate, you might get +3 splint mail instead'. So... why? Why would anyone ever enchant splint mail when the price difference between that and full plate is negligible compared to the cost of enchanting it? You'd get the exact same thing but way cheaper with +2 plate armour.

Ditto enchanted padded armour, leather armour, chain shirt, hide, ring mail and scale mail - all these things are flat out inferior to other armours but sometimes used because they're cheaper, why would there ever be magical versions?

An obvious reason would be if they are artifacts (in the archaeological sense) that predate the development of plate. Given that a lot of found armor is going to be on the old end if genre convention is adhered to, it would make sense for them to be particularly prominent. A modern enchanter using anything else would be much more questionable.

[Naanomi]

Random loot gave my players +2 padded. Unimpressed they asked why it was ever made. I told them a genie gave it to someone who wished for 'armor enchanted with powerful magic'

[Ashrym]

An obvious reason would be if they are artifacts (in the archaeological sense) that predate the development of plate. Given that a lot of found armor is going to be on the old end if genre convention is adhered to, it would make sense for them to be particularly prominent. A modern enchanter using anything else would be much more questionable.

Makes sense.


Random loot gave my players +2 padded. Unimpressed they asked why it was ever made. I told them a genie gave it to someone who wished for 'armor enchanted with powerful magic'

Some rich noble commissioned it because he thought it was stylish. If the player wears that armor you could play with it being famously recognized in certain areas and really roll with a concept like that.

[Kryx]

. If the modules are supposed to be indicative of play, starting with Lost Mines of Phandelver, and the general patterns of play established in previous editions hold, these can generally be assumed to be some component of incoming wealth.

LMoP was created before the DMG came out and has been said that it should not be used as a "standard" WBL experience.



That is being very stingy to the extreme. A fighter is not going to have 1,500 gp before level 11? Either the table meant non-magical when using the word "normal" or someone at WOTC really hates characters having nice things. I've said it before. 5E really went overboard trying to cut back on the relative ease of getting magic items of 3E and 4E. I get it; you don't want Monty Haulism, but the solution to that is not Ebeneezer Scroogism.

This is plainly not true.
Please read Analysis of "Typical" Magic Item Distribution (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?395770-Analysis-of-quot-Typical-quot-Magic-Item-Distribution)

[D.U.P.A.]

I say level 6. But that time Dex based lightly armored Fighters are able to bump their Dex mod by two (+2 score at lvl4, +2 score at lvl6), so to keep things fair, heavy armor users should be treated equally, otherwise would be suboptimal using heavy armor and rather go Dex than Str.

[odigity]

Almost everyone's said it already, but I'll add to the chorus of "definitely by 5th", and maybe earlier if you're feeling generous. It's a long, painful wait till then if you're playing a heavy armor person who's been counting every copper from level 1, waiting to finally get that mudane armor he's optimized for. Yeah, it let's them blow out their AC compared to none-heavy armor chars, but they knew what they were signing up for when they chose a spellcaster or dex-base. Don't get all Harrison Bergeron on your players...

[SharkForce]

plate mail does not let you blow out your AC compared to anything except a person with awful dex and lousy armour proficiencies.

light armour goes up to AC 17 with enough dex, or 18 AC with a mage armour spell (potentially better with unarmored abilities or an item that boosts your attributes beyond regular limits).

medium armour goes up to AC 17 with moderate dex and a moderate gp investment, or 18 AC with a feat and slightly better dex.

heavy armour goes up to AC 18 with a lot of gp and no dex.

for every type of armour, there are options to get your AC higher. the only thing that full plate does is let you dump dexterity and get away with it, but only for the purpose of AC (your initiative, dex saves, stealth, ranged attack bonus with the best ranged weapons, etc will all still suck).

about the only reason to drool over full plate excessively is if the only thing you want out of dexterity is AC. and since pretty much everyone benefits from acting first, making dex saves, and having good range with their ranged options, even that doesn't come without a trade-off.

the difference between good AC and amazing AC is not heavy armour of any kind. it is whether or not you use a (preferably magic) shield.

(this is not to say that heavy armour has no benefits; 3 damage less from each attack can be extremely powerful in the right circumstances, and I'm not talking purely about low levels either; it scales with the number of attacks made against you, which can easily go up as you gain levels. I'm just saying don't obsess over keeping full plate out of reach of your players; it really isn't that much better than other armour).

[Slipperychicken]

New question: Why are there so many enchanted heavy armours that aren't full plate in the DMG?

I figure that the intended recipient of the armor might not have met the requirements for fullplate (he might have been a barbarian, a rogue, a ranger, or simply had less than 15 strength), or he might not have wanted to be bothered with all the weight. Also, maybe they didn't have plate armor back in the ancient times when most of this magic stuff was being crafted.

[Pex]

plate mail does not let you blow out your AC compared to anything except a person with awful dex and lousy armour proficiencies.

light armour goes up to AC 17 with enough dex, or 18 AC with a mage armour spell (potentially better with unarmored abilities or an item that boosts your attributes beyond regular limits).

medium armour goes up to AC 17 with moderate dex and a moderate gp investment, or 18 AC with a feat and slightly better dex.

heavy armour goes up to AC 18 with a lot of gp and no dex.

for every type of armour, there are options to get your AC higher. the only thing that full plate does is let you dump dexterity and get away with it, but only for the purpose of AC (your initiative, dex saves, stealth, ranged attack bonus with the best ranged weapons, etc will all still suck).

about the only reason to drool over full plate excessively is if the only thing you want out of dexterity is AC. and since pretty much everyone benefits from acting first, making dex saves, and having good range with their ranged options, even that doesn't come without a trade-off.

the difference between good AC and amazing AC is not heavy armour of any kind. it is whether or not you use a (preferably magic) shield.

(this is not to say that heavy armour has no benefits; 3 damage less from each attack can be extremely powerful in the right circumstances, and I'm not talking purely about low levels either; it scales with the number of attacks made against you, which can easily go up as you gain levels. I'm just saying don't obsess over keeping full plate out of reach of your players; it really isn't that much better than other armour).

Even if you want to wear full plate it's fine to have good DX. Regardless of your DX full plate with shield still gives the best AC. Medium armors cap at +2 modifier. Light armors with 20 DX don't equal full plate. The math enables you not to feel like you're wasting DX if you wear full plate. Enabling dumping DEX but still have good AC is nice, but it's not an automatic thing. Not every warrior is going to have a good DX. Paladins need to emphasize ST and CH, CO right after. DX bases Fighter work fine, but some do want to be ST based for other weapon and feat options. CO is always important. DX is tertiary for the saves and initiative, so a 14 DX is good enough to have something if they can manage it. Warrior-type clerics who get heavy armor proficiency need WI for spellcasting, ST to fight as an option or DX with a finesse weapon, CO for the hit points. (Heh, just hit me clerics don't care about CH like they did in earlier editions.)

Full plate is not for everyone but also not for no one.

[Ashrym]

plate mail does not let you blow out your AC compared to anything except a person with awful dex and lousy armour proficiencies.

light armour goes up to AC 17 with enough dex, or 18 AC with a mage armour spell (potentially better with unarmored abilities or an item that boosts your attributes beyond regular limits).

medium armour goes up to AC 17 with moderate dex and a moderate gp investment, or 18 AC with a feat and slightly better dex.

heavy armour goes up to AC 18 with a lot of gp and no dex.

for every type of armour, there are options to get your AC higher. the only thing that full plate does is let you dump dexterity and get away with it, but only for the purpose of AC (your initiative, dex saves, stealth, ranged attack bonus with the best ranged weapons, etc will all still suck).

about the only reason to drool over full plate excessively is if the only thing you want out of dexterity is AC. and since pretty much everyone benefits from acting first, making dex saves, and having good range with their ranged options, even that doesn't come without a trade-off.

the difference between good AC and amazing AC is not heavy armour of any kind. it is whether or not you use a (preferably magic) shield.

(this is not to say that heavy armour has no benefits; 3 damage less from each attack can be extremely powerful in the right circumstances, and I'm not talking purely about low levels either; it scales with the number of attacks made against you, which can easily go up as you gain levels. I'm just saying don't obsess over keeping full plate out of reach of your players; it really isn't that much better than other armour).

The benefit of heavy armor is not needing to invest in DEX or feats just to get to where heavy armor starts. Medium armor can get the same AC with 14 DEX and a feat but why invest in DEX and the feat instead of something else and relying on the armor?

A person also cannot really compare the AC from armor acquirable at relatively low levels to AC that requires 20 DEX to come close because that's not possible until several levels later at opportunity cost and not optimal on many classes. The armor makes a huge difference during levels the PC's have not yet completed that investment.

A shield spell will destroy spell slots at lower levels with even mild use and still eats them up at higher levels. The only class that can pull that off with any real consistency is an 18th level wizard who uses spell mastery for the spell.

You are comparing heavy armor AC from full plate available around 5th level to AC's typical of other methods at 12th level or later. PC's need the AC between those points. The only other comparison at the same lower level is medium armor with DEX. That doesn't suit all classes or builds, and neither does a shield. A pole arm fighter or greatsword paladin is going to want the best armor as quickly as possible.

[Maxilian]

NPCs like the knight are CR 3 and have plate armour, so it's obviously appropriate loot from 3 or so onwards. From experience, if players who wear heavy armour don't have plate by level 5 or 6 they're not trying.

I... i don't have plate yet and i'm lvl 5 :smallfrown:

I'M TRYING!!!! *Cries in the corner*

[Slipperychicken]

I... i don't have plate yet and i'm lvl 5 :smallfrown:

I'M TRYING!!!! *Cries in the corner*

It's okay. I only got fullplate at 5 because a whole city was annihilated and we looted the armory.

[Eslin]

I figure that the intended recipient of the armor might not have met the requirements for fullplate (he might have been a barbarian, a rogue, a ranger, or simply had less than 15 strength), or he might not have wanted to be bothered with all the weight. Also, maybe they didn't have plate armor back in the ancient times when most of this magic stuff was being crafted.

I only listed items that didn't fit those descriptions, I listed the ones that were flat out worse than others. Splint mail, padded armour, leather armour, chain shirt, hide, ring mail and scale mail are all strictly worse than other armours.

Ancient times wise - wouldn't you get more armour being created the more modern the time? From our own history we see that population steadily increases over time, so based on population alone you'd have more magic armour being created in the current century than any before, and technology increases with it so you'd also have a lot more advanced armour being created.

[Sidmen]

I only listed items that didn't fit those descriptions, I listed the ones that were flat out worse than others. Splint mail, padded armour, leather armour, chain shirt, hide, ring mail and scale mail are all strictly worse than other armours.

Ancient times wise - wouldn't you get more armour being created the more modern the time? From our own history we see that population steadily increases over time, so based on population alone you'd have more magic armour being created in the current century than any before, and technology increases with it so you'd also have a lot more advanced armour being created.

Genre tropes have it that magic was more potent and more readily available in ancient times. Or, rather, over the centuries and millenia, a lot of magical stuff has been made - at a fairly consistent rate - but since they don't rust away, they collect up. Maybe 2 suits of magical armor are made every year - that means there are hundreds of suits of armor from the early middle ages - when mail and leather was the best that could be expected, and thousands from the Roman period - breastplates and more mail alongside various others. In the meanwhile, only a few dozen modern examples are available in the local kingdom - owned by the wealthiest and most powerful noble houses.

But yes, if everyone in the game world had full access to everything on the armor list and knew what their game traits were - then it would be stupid to enchant anything but Studded Leather, Breastplates, and Full Plate. Maybe a few Half-Plates here and there. But that is boring. That it is even a thing that can be asked is further fuel for my desire to narrow all armors down to "Light, Medium, and Heavy" and let the descriptions flow from there.

[Eslin]

Genre tropes have it that magic was more potent and more readily available in ancient times. Or, rather, over the centuries and millenia, a lot of magical stuff has been made - at a fairly consistent rate - but since they don't rust away, they collect up. Maybe 2 suits of magical armor are made every year - that means there are hundreds of suits of armor from the early middle ages - when mail and leather was the best that could be expected, and thousands from the Roman period - breastplates and more mail alongside various others. In the meanwhile, only a few dozen modern examples are available in the local kingdom - owned by the wealthiest and most powerful noble houses.

But yes, if everyone in the game world had full access to everything on the armor list and knew what their game traits were - then it would be stupid to enchant anything but Studded Leather, Breastplates, and Full Plate. Maybe a few Half-Plates here and there. But that is boring. That it is even a thing that can be asked is further fuel for my desire to narrow all armors down to "Light, Medium, and Heavy" and let the descriptions flow from there.

Well, people kind of do know what their game traits are. Medieval people knew that full plate protected better than splint mail, the properties of armour are one of the things we're sure that characters know. And it wouldn't just be those 3 - there are a few strictly inferior armours, but you might want armour that doesn't reduce stealthiness etc.

And side note, why would magic have been more powerful earlier? A lot of magic's study based, surely based on the accumulation of knowledge we see from human history the most modern point would usually be the most magically adept?

[Knaight]

Ancient times wise - wouldn't you get more armour being created the more modern the time? From our own history we see that population steadily increases over time, so based on population alone you'd have more magic armour being created in the current century than any before, and technology increases with it so you'd also have a lot more advanced armour being created.

Population doesn't necessarily steadily increase over time, particularly not on more localized scales - take the black death, for a medieval example where there was a pronounced population drop. Plus, enchanted armor presumably lasts a good long time, which means that the last few decades of modern armor are up against centuries of earlier stuff. Plate armor wasn't really all that developed until 1400, and was basically out of use by 1650 - that's 250 years. Mail was around for upwards of 1000 years as the best armor around. Finding older enchanted mail makes perfect sense, even if the sophistication of enchanting and prevalence of it has increased recently, along with the ability to produce armor.

[silveralen]

It's okay. I only got fullplate at 5 because a whole city was annihilated and we looted the armory.

I got mine at lvl 6 because my DM told me to give my character whatever items seemed appropriate. I think he regretted that.

[Logosloki]

Well, people kind of do know what their game traits are. Medieval people knew that full plate protected better than splint mail, the properties of armour are one of the things we're sure that characters know. And it wouldn't just be those 3 - there are a few strictly inferior armours, but you might want armour that doesn't reduce stealthiness etc.

And side note, why would magic have been more powerful earlier? A lot of magic's study based, surely based on the accumulation of knowledge we see from human history the most modern point would usually be the most magically adept?

Magic being more powerful in an earlier age is very much a staple of fantasy. It stems from both myth, literature and early perceptions of the history of the world ( post late medieval people's perceptions of Rome, Lacedemonia, Egypt). Usually magic was more powerful but x happened. X can be older mages dying/being killed and not passing on their knowledge (the great war/betrayal), the progress of technology nullifies magic (one I detest), An entity or group of entities simply removes the power (gods taking their toys back), Magic comes from a physical source and that source is being destroyed slowly....

Also in a good old fashion dungeon crawler in a kitchen sink universe you are typically murderhoboing through ancient ruins and if you are theming the loot then it will be old school gear. If you were to generate a world that didn't go through a "dark age" or if you were mapping out an entire world where much like in historical earth only some places went through bad times and other places went through golden periods then magic will be markedly stronger, flavoured and more commonplace than if it had been bottlenecked by cataclysm or bureaucracy.

[Eslin]

Magic being more powerful in an earlier age is very much a staple of fantasy. It stems from both myth, literature and early perceptions of the history of the world ( post late medieval people's perceptions of Rome, Lacedemonia, Egypt). Usually magic was more powerful but x happened. X can be older mages dying/being killed and not passing on their knowledge (the great war/betrayal), the progress of technology nullifies magic (one I detest), An entity or group of entities simply removes the power (gods taking their toys back), Magic comes from a physical source and that source is being destroyed slowly....

Also in a good old fashion dungeon crawler in a kitchen sink universe you are typically murderhoboing through ancient ruins and if you are theming the loot then it will be old school gear. If you were to generate a world that didn't go through a "dark age" or if you were mapping out an entire world where much like in historical earth only some places went through bad times and other places went through golden periods then magic will be markedly stronger, flavoured and more commonplace than if it had been bottlenecked by cataclysm or bureaucracy.

Ah, ok. That one's actually a pretty good explanation - if I create a world technological progress tends to be slower (since magic can often stifle the need), but magic's ability to connect people over long distances tends to mean that there's rarely a true dark period because if one section (example, Europe) becomes stagnant another section (example, middle America) will continue where it left off because cultural drift means they both have access to about the same level of knowledge.

[odigity]

You are comparing heavy armor AC from full plate available around 5th level to AC's typical of other methods at 12th level or later. PC's need the AC between those points. The only other comparison at the same lower level is medium armor with DEX. That doesn't suit all classes or builds, and neither does a shield. A pole arm fighter or greatsword paladin is going to want the best armor as quickly as possible.

This.

My Variant Human Paladin char is a Polearm Master/Sentinel battlefield controller. He started with PM, and picked up Sentinal at level 4. He hasn't had a chance to boost a single stat yet (just got to level 4), and he can't wield a shield (polearm). He started with an AC of 16 (chain mail), and has consistently been hit more than the fighter (chain mail + shield). Finally upgraded to Splint at level 3 (AC 17). Casts Shield of Faith on himself a lot to make up the difference. I'm very much looking forward to affording Plate.

In my other game we got rich at level 5 (30k gp split four ways) by rescuing some very wealthy prisoners and also capturing a live basilisk and egg for a wealth collector. However, that's also the game in which I'm playing a Monk, so I don't need Plate. :) Instead we bought a giant inn & tavern. (The Monk's a gangster, so he believes in reputation and putting money to work making more money, even though he doesn't personally need any to be effective in combat.)

[Longcat]

Enchanted hide/leather armor is for druids, since in this edition, they currently have no way to bypass the "no metal armor" restriction. Non-metal armor rules from previous editions got scrapped. It really sucks to be a Land Druid and cap at AC 16 (Hide+Shield+14 Dex) for the majority of your career when everyone else in the party sports 18-21.

[SharkForce]

The benefit of heavy armor is not needing to invest in DEX or feats just to get to where heavy armor starts. Medium armor can get the same AC with 14 DEX and a feat but why invest in DEX and the feat instead of something else and relying on the armor?

A person also cannot really compare the AC from armor acquirable at relatively low levels to AC that requires 20 DEX to come close because that's not possible until several levels later at opportunity cost and not optimal on many classes. The armor makes a huge difference during levels the PC's have not yet completed that investment.

A shield spell will destroy spell slots at lower levels with even mild use and still eats them up at higher levels. The only class that can pull that off with any real consistency is an 18th level wizard who uses spell mastery for the spell.

You are comparing heavy armor AC from full plate available around 5th level to AC's typical of other methods at 12th level or later. PC's need the AC between those points. The only other comparison at the same lower level is medium armor with DEX. That doesn't suit all classes or builds, and neither does a shield. A pole arm fighter or greatsword paladin is going to want the best armor as quickly as possible.

and through much of this process, the difference will be 1-2 points of AC for those that dumped their dex and chose heavy armour. yes, anyone can benefit from heavy armour. but ultimately, it's not a huge deal, whether it's plate mail or not. it's nice for those that need it, but it is not generally speaking the determining factor for whether you have good AC or not.

there is no need to make it super hard to get full plate. even if we disregard options from other types of armour (medium being fairly easy to reach and allowing options only 1 point behind the best heavy armour, light armour having the option to be replaced by mage armour - I don't know where you got into the shield spell, I never mentioned it, for the record - for an extra point of AC), the heavy armour user most likely has the second-best heavy armour already by the time they've got 1500 gp together for plate. which, again, means that we're talking about a whopping 1 point increase to AC. plate mail is not massively superior to other types of armours. it is the best heavy armour, and allows for the best AC of all armours barring special circumstances (by a whopping 1 point), but it is simply not a huge difference.

and yes, not everyone wants to use a shield... that's beside the point. plate mail is still likely only worth +1 to AC for them as well.

plate mail is only a small increase over medium armour (or equal with a feat). it is only a small increase over the second-best heavy armour. it is only a small increase over the best light armour combined with a good dex score, or equal with the use of magic.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take it if it's available. I'm saying that there really isn't any desperate need to keep it out of the party's hands. there is no dividing line where if you give it to the party too early the entire game breaks down and one person becomes the unstoppable juggernaut while the rest of the party can only imagine what it would be like to be so awesome. unless it is supplemented with a shield, it is likely only creating a 1-2 point difference in AC relative to the rest of the party, provided the rest of the party is interested in having a good AC (in some cases, a focus on AC may require certain races or sacrificing in other key areas, however; a wizard *can* have almost as good of an AC if they're willing to give up raising their casting stat, for example)


Enchanted hide/leather armor is for druids, since in this edition, they currently have no way to bypass the "no metal armor" restriction. Non-metal armor rules from previous editions got scrapped. It really sucks to be a Land Druid and cap at AC 16 (Hide+Shield+14 Dex) for the majority of your career when everyone else in the party sports 18-21.

there may not be much in the way of "+X ______" armour, but there are specific armour options that work just fine for land druids. I expect more will be added as the game goes on, as well; it's just a matter of time before ironwood becomes a thing again, for example, not to mention ankheg plate.

[Slipperychicken]

Enchanted hide/leather armor is for druids, since in this edition, they currently have no way to bypass the "no metal armor" restriction. Non-metal armor rules from previous editions got scrapped. It really sucks to be a Land Druid and cap at AC 16 (Hide+Shield+14 Dex) for the majority of your career when everyone else in the party sports 18-21.

A druid still gets better than wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks. Besides, wildshape should cover survivability in combat, right?


And I wouldn't be surprised to see a "Variant: Non-Metal Armor" sidebar come up later.

[Easy_Lee]

Random loot gave my players +2 padded. Unimpressed they asked why it was ever made. I told them a genie gave it to someone who wished for 'armor enchanted with powerful magic'

I like you.

I agree with much of what has been said. I would like to add that I think armor is more interesting to find, or find the materials for, than to buy outright. If one of my players wanted a suit of full plate, he would hear a rumor that a fabled one might exist at a location where the PCs are traveling. He would then find pieces of it over the course of the next few encounters / game days, depending on his actions. Ultimately, each piece would need to be altered to fit his body, and once he had them all he would receive the full benefit.

Alternatively, if one of your players is a smith, it could be very fun to find rare material or items that no one can currently use until someone alters them.

[Person_Man]

I'm going to say that you should let a player find Full Plate around the same time anyone else in the party gets to AC 18 without a shield, which will probably be around level 4. Strength is weaker then Dexterity, especially at low levels, and there's no reason to punish someone for taking a weaker approach.

Also, I'd be sure to make a plot point out of it. For example, only titled nobility of a certain minimum rank are allowed to wear full plate (and are typically the only ones who can afford it), and each noble house has its own distinctive style and heraldry built into it, to the point where other nobles can recognize what noble house/family you belong to just by looking at your armor. So the player must achieve a specific title (Knight, Esquire, Patrician, whatever) or kill someone with it (and risk being recognized as the killer). If the player starts with a Noble background, then someone in his own family gives him the quest to get promoted, and doing so also raises his prestige and the prestige of his family, granting him some additional minor roleplaying boons.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm going to say that you should let a player find Full Plate around the same time anyone else in the party gets to AC 18 without a shield, which will probably be around level 4. Strength is weaker then Dexterity, especially at low levels, and there's no reason to punish someone for taking a weaker approach.

Also, I'd be sure to make a plot point out of it. For example, only titled nobility of a certain minimum rank are allowed to wear full plate (and are typically the only ones who can afford it), and each noble house has its own distinctive style and heraldry built into it, to the point where other nobles can recognize what noble house/family you belong to just by looking at your armor. So the player must achieve a specific title (Knight, Esquire, Patrician, whatever) or kill someone with it (and risk being recognized as the killer). If the player starts with a Noble background, then someone in his own family gives him the quest to get promoted, and doing so also raises his prestige and the prestige of his family, granting him some additional minor roleplaying boons.

I agree with all of this. It's almost always better, in my opinion, for the items your players encounter to be plot related.

[Knaight]

I agree with all of this. It's almost always better, in my opinion, for the items your players encounter to be plot related.

If the item is a big deal in setting, it makes sense for it to have a fair amount of time dedicated to it. I generally don't see standard non magical armor as fitting this. If it's some glorious suit made as a display of wealth and of the armorers skills as much as anything else, then sure, it's a big deal. If it's standard plate meant for the field, maybe not - it's appropriate for some settings to have it all belong to some noble house or other and be decked out in their raiment, but in a bunch of others it really doesn't fit.

I mean, say the PCs get attacked by a bunch of bandits. In the process they'll be encountering some amount of weapons, armor, tools, food, and whatever else the bandits are carrying. That doesn't really make the spear that one of them was holding particularly plot related, nor should it.

[Psyren]

Also, I'd be sure to make a plot point out of it. For example, only titled nobility of a certain minimum rank are allowed to wear full plate (and are typically the only ones who can afford it), and each noble house has its own distinctive style and heraldry built into it, to the point where other nobles can recognize what noble house/family you belong to just by looking at your armor. So the player must achieve a specific title (Knight, Esquire, Patrician, whatever) or kill someone with it (and risk being recognized as the killer). If the player starts with a Noble background, then someone in his own family gives him the quest to get promoted, and doing so also raises his prestige and the prestige of his family, granting him some additional minor roleplaying boons.

Do you still have to/can you reshape full plate to fit a new wearer in 5e? I'd just bang up the heraldry as part of that process so the nobles don't know where I got it from.

[Drayrs]

Full Plate's price is probably a holdover from 3.5

'If it ain't broke don't fix it.'

Or I could buy 1500 goats. Herd them between myself and my enemies and use a bow. Also good for bribing dragons. Need to feed them though...

Apparently it also costs 1 gp a day to hire a skilled artisan. Less the material costs, a suit of full plate seems to require around 3 years of work by an average blacksmith.

Just some amusing thoughts.

[Oscredwin]

Or I could buy 1500 goats. Herd them between myself and my enemies and use a bow. Also good for bribing dragons. Need to feed them though...

Nah, goats are grazing animals. They'll just eat the grass.

[Xetheral]

Nah, goats are grazing animals. They'll just eat the grass.

Nothing makes a desert faster than a goat.

[holygroundj]

I only listed items that didn't fit those descriptions, I listed the ones that were flat out worse than others. Splint mail, padded armour, leather armour, chain shirt, hide, ring mail and scale mail are all strictly worse than other armours.

Ancient times wise - wouldn't you get more armour being created the more modern the time? From our own history we see that population steadily increases over time, so based on population alone you'd have more magic armour being created in the current century than any before, and technology increases with it so you'd also have a lot more advanced armour being created.

because the people making the armor aren't metagaming their world?

There are many RP reasons to create "inferior" armor. They aren't thinking, oh man I shouldn't make this armor cause it gives disadvantage on stealth checks!" Nor are they thinking, "Man, why make a splint mail set when I can clearly make plate which is +1 AC?!" I know all about how your game works but honestly, not all tables are yours, and people make things that are less than the best for plenty of reasons. Maybe they like the artistry of making splint mail vs plate.
Maybe the only materials at hand were enough to make padded. Then, as the armor is used, it gets imbued with magic?

Not every piece of magic armor is made by a PC. At my table, there are tons of magic items we have found (@ 5th edition standards) that aren't the best, but are interesting.

For example, our rogue has a device that transforms from a crossbow into a dagger (magically). I'm sure by your logic the question would be: Why doesn't it change into a shortsword? That's so mechanically superior to a dagger for a rogue.

[Socko525]

I'd say level 7 at the latest (speaking from experience as I'm a level 7 Paladin in a party with a Tempest Cleric and Fighter...and we all have splint mail) I lucked out and stumbled upon adamantine splint mail, so I'm not really complaining.

But to my initial point, at level 7, casters (most importantly wizards) get 4th level spells. If your party has a wizard and you can convince them to learn fabricate, you've got your full plate in 10 minutes as long as you have the requisite amount of metal.

[Person_Man]

Do you still have to/can you reshape full plate to fit a new wearer in 5e? I'd just bang up the heraldry as part of that process so the nobles don't know where I got it from.

That's up to the player to decide. If a player wants to just kill Sir Nobleguy, use smith's tools to change or remove the heraldry, and then just come up with some feasible cover story ("I found this in an ancient hoard...") for when they encounter other nobles, they can. (Or if they want to be really risky, they can fake the heraldry of another noble house from a distant land, and hope that the truth doesn't catch up to them).

On the flip side, if the player is really into it, then I also allow for their armor to change and be upgraded as they gain higher noble ranks. I got the idea from some old Forgotten Realms novels, where the followers of Torm (or maybe Tyr?) had their armor in different colors/types based on their rank.

Whatever the player decides to do, I try to make the prestige of full plate an extra optional benefit, not a mandatory hoop they have to jump through or a punishment.

[Eslin]

because the people making the armor aren't metagaming their world?

There are many RP reasons to create "inferior" armor. They aren't thinking, oh man I shouldn't make this armor cause it gives disadvantage on stealth checks!" Nor are they thinking, "Man, why make a splint mail set when I can clearly make plate which is +1 AC?!" I know all about how your game works but honestly, not all tables are yours, and people make things that are less than the best for plenty of reasons. Maybe they like the artistry of making splint mail vs plate.
Maybe the only materials at hand were enough to make padded. Then, as the armor is used, it gets imbued with magic?

Not every piece of magic armor is made by a PC. At my table, there are tons of magic items we have found (@ 5th edition standards) that aren't the best, but are interesting.

For example, our rogue has a device that transforms from a crossbow into a dagger (magically). I'm sure by your logic the question would be: Why doesn't it change into a shortsword? That's so mechanically superior to a dagger for a rogue.

You're confusing metagaming for characters not being idiots. Fun fact: people who fight with armour and weapons tend to be really good at gauging effectiveness. Historically by the time firearms started to make plate inefficient you'd have over half the army in full plate - not splint mail, because apparently everyone in real life was metagaming. It also spurred the development of effective penetrating swords like the estoc and polearms like the halberd, because apparently they were metagaming in terms of weapon usage.

Or, let me just put this out there as a crazy theory, people are capable of judging which things are more useful than other things without it being metagaming.

[Naanomi]

Or, let me just put this out there as a crazy theory, people are capable of judging which things are more useful than other things without it being metagaming.
The trouble with this mindset is that people in real life 'optimize' for more factors than just +1 AC; cost of metals, how quickly one can outfit your army, availability of artisans, cultural or regional stylistic choices, niche effects of armor types (vs specific weapons, how well you can ride with it, etc)... All things that may change what armor is made and likely exist even in DnD settings, but just are not modeled in game and so don't effect PC 'meta gaming' like it influences NPC decisions.

[Eslin]

The trouble with this mindset is that people in real life 'optimize' for more factors than just +1 AC; cost of metals, how quickly one can outfit your army, availability of artisans, cultural or regional stylistic choices, niche effects of armor types (vs specific weapons, how well you can ride with it, etc)... All things that may change what armor is made and likely exist even in DnD settings, but just are not modeled in game and so don't effect PC 'meta gaming' like it influences NPC decisions.

Except if you have someone magically enchanting armour, you certainly have the required artisans. And you aren't outfitting your army with magic armour unless you've found a way to mass produce it, in which case you'll also have mass plate. Cost wise, +1 costs so much more than plate armour does that doing it on anything else is silly. If you're shelling out 5000g for +1, why not shell out another thousand for additional protection?

[holygroundj]

Except if you have someone magically enchanting armour, you certainly have the required artisans. And you aren't outfitting your army with magic armour unless you've found a way to mass produce it, in which case you'll also have mass plate. Cost wise, +1 costs so much more than plate armour does that doing it on anything else is silly. If you're shelling out 5000g for +1, why not shell out another thousand for additional protection?


Yes, this is meta gaming. You are assuming all conditions are equal and that armor is produced factory-like. Why don't goblins wear full plate? It's obviously better AC than leather.

I mean, plate isn't even the best armor in the game. There are materials out there that are better than plate. So why even use plate as your example? Obviously, if they're not idiots, they're just going to use mithril or whatever is absolutely the best armor type in the game. Right?

Do your players start out at max AC in your game?

Why is magic armor being mass produced, anyways? This isn't clearly spelled out in the books.

[Louro]

Plate armor.
Base cost (on demand): 1500 gp

On a big city with a blacksmith guild (they already have the parts in stock waiting to be finished): 800-1000 gp
A war is going on: 2000-2500 gp
You provide the iron/steel: 1000 gp
You provide obsidian (metal that halves manufacturing time): 500 gp
You provide a looted full plate: 250-500 gp to adjust it
You loot one of your size: 50 gp on leather strings and minor repairs.
You enroll in the army and get promoted to cavalry: FREE!!!

...
The DM should provide a viable quest/way for anyone who really wants a full plate but won't get that much gold.

[Naanomi]

Except if you have someone magically enchanting armour, you certainly have the required artisans. And you aren't outfitting your army with magic armour unless you've found a way to mass produce it, in which case you'll also have mass plate. Cost wise, +1 costs so much more than plate armour does that doing it on anything else is silly. If you're shelling out 5000g for +1, why not shell out another thousand for additional protection?
If uber-rich king isn't strong enough to wear full plate? If the iconic armor of the Kremlish Hero is gilded chain mail? If swamp-beast hide is easily enchanted but difficult to stud? If iron is more precious than platinum in the desert-lands? If only the church Knights are allowed Plate, but a young secular hero deserves a reward?

A huge host of non-optimized suits of armor commissioned off the top of my head for legitimate reasons beyond '+1 AC' mechanics optimization

[Eslin]

Yes, this is meta gaming. You are assuming all conditions are equal and that armor is produced factory-like. Why don't goblins wear full plate? It's obviously better AC than leather.

I mean, plate isn't even the best armor in the game. There are materials out there that are better than plate. So why even use plate as your example? Obviously, if they're not idiots, they're just going to use mithril or whatever is absolutely the best armor type in the game. Right?

Do your players start out at max AC in your game?

Why is magic armor being mass produced, anyways? This isn't clearly spelled out in the books.

No, I'm not. It's not being mass produced, magic armour is a terrible waste of those kind of resources.

I'm saying that if someone's shelling out a minimum of 5000g to enchant their armour, they're not going to balk at spending a small amount more to make sure it's good armour. The reason plate isn't put on everything is cost considerations which by definition aren't really a consideration in comparison to the cost of enchanting the armour.

As to the rest, goblins and what have you, not bothering with pointless questions.

[hawklost]

Reasons for 'lesser armor'

Magical Scale - There was a snake that if the scales were used held magic better and could allow the caster to spend less effort making it
Magical Breastplate - This was a full plate at some time in the past but all the pieces but the breastplate were lost
Magical Chain - Someone figured out how to make magical sigils using chain links to produce armors, with the special designs they effectively work like a magical item. (This does not work on Full Plate since only the chainmail part of it could be magical)
Magical Leather - A 'stitch-witch' (Someone who can magically enhance sewn items) spelled multiple threads to make enhancements to leather armor, it cannot work on metal

There are many explanations of how one kind of armor could be enchanted and not the most 'optimal'.

A DM can have an infinite number of reasons, from the people in the past not knowing how to make full-plate to a Spellcaster not being able to enhance them magically. All it requires is a little imagination.

Also, the Light/Medium/Heavy armor tables are generalizations to make it easier for Players. Someone who spends time learning how to wear Scale properly and can move easily in it cannot just instantly upgrade to full-plate without any trouble. So in NPC terms, it might be that they cannot wear someone 'better' and want the best they can use well to be magical.

And before someone chimes in saying that the tables shouldn't group things then, I will counter immediately that the tables are only for Players to use, not the world at large, there are many different things in the world that none of the books get into detail or just simplify for game convenience.

[Knaight]

because the people making the armor aren't metagaming their world?

There are many RP reasons to create "inferior" armor. They aren't thinking, oh man I shouldn't make this armor cause it gives disadvantage on stealth checks!" Nor are they thinking, "Man, why make a splint mail set when I can clearly make plate which is +1 AC?!" I know all about how your game works but honestly, not all tables are yours, and people make things that are less than the best for plenty of reasons. Maybe they like the artistry of making splint mail vs plate.
Maybe the only materials at hand were enough to make padded. Then, as the armor is used, it gets imbued with magic?
Being able to evaluate armor isn't metagaming. There was an actual, historical shift towards using plates pretty much as soon as it was possible, initiatlly as reinforcement for mail armor. Once blast furnaces were established (which took some doing, these things are a sort of huge beyond what people usually imagine, with some being upwards of 20 cubic meters), there was a pretty thorough switch over to use of breastplates and plate armor for just about everything. That didn't always mean full coverage, as doing things like reducing weight by minimally protecting the back of the legs was common (on infantry armor), but mail got pretty thoroughly phased out.


The trouble with this mindset is that people in real life 'optimize' for more factors than just +1 AC; cost of metals, how quickly one can outfit your army, availability of artisans, cultural or regional stylistic choices, niche effects of armor types (vs specific weapons, how well you can ride with it, etc)... All things that may change what armor is made and likely exist even in DnD settings, but just are not modeled in game and so don't effect PC 'meta gaming' like it influences NPC decisions.
From a historical perspective, we're talking about plate armor providing better defense, being just as easy to ride in, being just as fast for outfitting an armor, having significantly lower labor costs, so on and so forth. Once the technological infrastructure is there (blast furnaces being the big one), it's generally just a better option.


Yes, this is meta gaming. You are assuming all conditions are equal and that armor is produced factory-like. Why don't goblins wear full plate? It's obviously better AC than leather.
What's being assumed is that if people are going to enchant armor, they're going to start with the best armor. It's much like how, when highly decorated very expensive armor was made for monarchs and the extremely rich among the nobility, they usually had some very good workshops making the best armor do it. That someone would enchant lower quality armor is just weird - which is why older stuff is such a good source for it, wherein they used the best armor available at the time, but metallurgy has moved on.

As for armor being produced factory-like, we're talking about a type of armor that we know is in use, which requires fairly sophisticated technological infrastructure. It corresponded to a time period where armor was absolutely being produced factory like, with multiple people working on each phase of the armor, producing different pieces, and then handing those off to someone else who tempers them, handing those off to someone else who finishes them, so on and so forth. By the time the steel even arrived at said workshops it had usually already been heavily treated and was often in bar form.

Now, you can have the fantasy trope of the lone blacksmith with their little forge coexisting with the production of plate armor in setting. It's going to annoy the heck out of just about everyone with more accurate knowledge of the period and the metallurgy involved, but it's doable. Even if that is the case though, I'd expect most magic armor production to use that sort of thing.

[hawklost]

Now, you can have the fantasy trope of the lone blacksmith with their little forge coexisting with the production of plate armor in setting. It's going to annoy the heck out of just about everyone with more accurate knowledge of the period and the metallurgy involved, but it's doable. Even if that is the case though, I'd expect most magic armor production to use that sort of thing.

Are you really demanding accurate 'knowledge of the period' to actually WORK in dnd? Considering that Magic ruins all 'accurate knowledge' of any period of human history claiming RL history is just foolish.

Things that ruin 'accurate knowledge of a period'

Magic
Gods
Non-Humans
People doing impossible things (Like jumping too far, carrying around weights that are impossible, surviving falls from the moon ect..)
Even Simplified rules compared to RL.

So pushing a RL idea into a game is already foolish and then claiming that you know that Full-Plate was aimed at. If you look at armies, there were many times when there was very little heavy armor and most people did not even wear dnd equivalent to medium armor. Even when it could be produced, it was extremely expensive in both time and materials. Just because they 'factory lined' it somewhat does not mean it was more than even some of the nobles made in a year in cost.

[holygroundj]

No, I'm not. It's not being mass produced, magic armour is a terrible waste of those kind of resources.

I'm saying that if someone's shelling out a minimum of 5000g to enchant their armour, they're not going to balk at spending a small amount more to make sure it's good armour. The reason plate isn't put on everything is cost considerations which by definition aren't really a consideration in comparison to the cost of enchanting the armour.

As to the rest, goblins and what have you, not bothering with pointless questions.

You're using a variant rule to make your point. You can't craft armor currently anyways. I agree. if you're at the magic shoppe and you're putting some cash down to increase your AC, then yep, go with the best of that class.

But that doesn't change that there are thematic and logical reasons that there are lower quality armors that are also enchanted.

Nothing about magic in DnD conforms to our world's concepts, so the analogies just don't work. It's not like making ornate armor. It's not like using advanced technology. At least not as a standard in any way.

Hell, it's more like art than anything. The techniques of creating a painting now are way more advanced than they were, but that doesn't mean that art created long ago, on inferior materials is any less potent. People still use old techniques and materials to create paintings, even though technology now is much more sophisticated (down to the paints, brushes, and canvas) but I know people who still make their own canvas.

[Knaight]

So pushing a RL idea into a game is already foolish and then claiming that you know that Full-Plate was aimed at. If you look at armies, there were many times when there was very little heavy armor and most people did not even wear dnd equivalent to medium armor. Even when it could be produced, it was extremely expensive in both time and materials. Just because they 'factory lined' it somewhat does not mean it was more than even some of the nobles made in a year in cost.

The prevalence of plate was not during one of those times. It was during one of those times where fairly heavy armor was routinely purchased by peasants out of their own money. That's not to say that you couldn't get armor that cost more than even some nobles made, but that involved getting a lot of special stuff done to it. It's like how in a lot of industrialized nations people in the lower class still often own cars, even though there are cars out there that cost more than several decades of their salaries.

[Eslin]

You're using a variant rule to make your point. You can't craft armor currently anyways. I agree. if you're at the magic shoppe and you're putting some cash down to increase your AC, then yep, go with the best of that class.

But that doesn't change that there are thematic and logical reasons that there are lower quality armors that are also enchanted.

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

I swear half the people around here have this weird love for making players unable to do things even at when it interferes heavily with verisimilitude.

[hawklost]

The prevalence of plate was not during one of those times. It was during one of those times where fairly heavy armor was routinely purchased by peasants out of their own money. That's not to say that you couldn't get armor that cost more than even some nobles made, but that involved getting a lot of special stuff done to it. It's like how in a lot of industrialized nations people in the lower class still often own cars, even though there are cars out there that cost more than several decades of their salaries.

Please then, give a link to the references you are using considering nothing I learned in my history classes or books on history ever had peasantry in what would be considered Plate and very rarely even in Breast Plates unless they were in the army or Guard.

[Slipperychicken]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

DMG page 128, "Crafting a Magic Item": Players can make magic items, but they must have the right formula.

Of course, whoever has formulas for magic armor isn't likely to part with it: It's their livelihood on the line. If they let the secrets get out, then every shmuck who meets the level and spell requirements can steal their business.

[holygroundj]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

I swear half the people around here have this weird love for making players unable to do things even at when it interferes heavily with verisimilitude.

I edited my quote above. but as for your question, the book specifically states that it was made "long ago" and those techniques have been lost. So magic weapons and armor you do find are almost always crazy rare.

Believe me, I've read enough of your posts to know how you feel about this and to an extent I agree with you. In the game I play in, you simply cannot make items at the level we currently are (level 8). Magical items are almost always heirlooms and our group of 6 have acquired 2 items, and we specifically went after them when we heard of them. Magic is common. Spells and potions are common in our world, but imbuing that magic into items was lost. Hell, we didn't get plate until 6th level, but not because it was rare. Since it was nonmagical, our DM said it had to be created from scratch and just followed the construction rules in the manual. Took 15 days to finish (major city, lots of help) and we just did a ton of adventuring in the mean time.

I know in your world everyone has equal access to everything, and that's a great way to play. I just don't see how you can invoke verisimilitude and then not agree that there are valid thematic reasons why "inferior" armor would come with enchantment.

[holygroundj]

RAW explanation? Players can make it if they have the right formula.

Of course, whoever has the formula for magic armor isn't likely to part with it: It's their livelihood on the line. If they let the secrets get out, then every shmuck who meets the level and spell requirements can steal their business.

Actually isn't that a variant ruling, much the same way feats are variant?

[Slipperychicken]

Actually isn't that a variant ruling, much the same way feats are variant?

Yup. And formulas are currently DM fiat. There's no written way (not that I've found, anyway) for a PC to get a formula.

[hawklost]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

I swear half the people around here have this weird love for making players unable to do things even at when it interferes heavily with verisimilitude.

Because the world has more effects in it than the rules allow players to do?

Gods drop it out of the sky randomly?
Ancient magic allowed it creation but now cannot be done
Required some ingredient that is either rare or none-existent now
Gods decided that it was un-allowed but never bothered cleaning up the old ones
a Cataclysm occurred and magic does not work like it used to

There is any number of reasons why some items exist in the past but cannot exist now.

Hack, by your logic, why don't players just make Artifacts and why are artifact level items not used everywhere in the world for everyday use

[Ashrym]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

I swear half the people around here have this weird love for making players unable to do things even at when it interferes heavily with verisimilitude.

If materials aren't available for the armor type them they make do with enchanting what's available. The materials don't become available just because of an AC advantage and desire for it.

Supply and demand still requires supply.

[Person_Man]

How does sub-optimal magical armor get made? By contrarian NPCs who refuse to make optimal choices! Around 30%ish of PCs fall into that category, so I don't see why there wouldn't be NPCs who do it. Some people just really like the idea of using a specific type of armor or weapon or equipment or whatever, even if it is 1-2ish points lower then the optimal choice. Plus fashion exists as a cultural force, makes absolutely no objective sense, and constantly changes.

[Eslin]

DMG page 128, "Crafting a Magic Item": Players can make magic items, but they must have the right formula.

Of course, whoever has formulas for magic armor isn't likely to part with it: It's their livelihood on the line. If they let the secrets get out, then every shmuck who meets the level and spell requirements can steal their business.

A reasonable analogy to steel being constantly lost and rediscovered - though it should be noted that by the time the kind of organisation/tech level usually present in D&D was reached that kind of thing was kept and shared once found.


I edited my quote above. but as for your question, the book specifically states that it was made "long ago" and those techniques have been lost. So magic weapons and armor you do find are almost always crazy rare.

Believe me, I've read enough of your posts to know how you feel about this and to an extent I agree with you. In the game I play in, you simply cannot make items at the level we currently are (level 8). Magical items are almost always heirlooms and our group of 6 have acquired 2 items, and we specifically went after them when we heard of them. Magic is common. Spells and potions are common in our world, but imbuing that magic into items was lost. Hell, we didn't get plate until 6th level, but not because it was rare. Since it was nonmagical, our DM said it had to be created from scratch and just followed the construction rules in the manual. Took 15 days to finish (major city, lots of help) and we just did a ton of adventuring in the mean time.

I know in your world everyone has equal access to everything, and that's a great way to play. I just don't see how you can invoke verisimilitude and then not agree that there are valid thematic reasons why "inferior" armor would come with enchantment.
Oh, there are. People aren't always the ones creating armour (though since it's one of the very humanoid specific items, I'd assume they create most of it) and people also aren't rational - plus the staying power of magic items means you'd be getting magical armour from very long times ago, the only surviving examples of many armour styles would probably be magical ones.

Populations increase over time as does knowledge, so on average you'd be getting more armour created each new year than any year before it - but you've still got the weight of all the items created back until you reach the point where the first person figured out how to do it, though you need to add in a flat chance per year that any individual piece gets lost or destroyed somehow (as time increases the chance of permanent loss approaches one, same reason I wouldn't want true immortality without a really good setup behind it).


Yup. And formulas are currently DM fiat. There's no written way (not that I've found, anyway) for a PC to get a formula.

Actually isn't that a variant ruling, much the same way feats are variant?
A fantastic example of why I returned my DMG.


Because the world has more effects in it than the rules allow players to do?

Gods drop it out of the sky randomly?
Ancient magic allowed it creation but now cannot be done
Required some ingredient that is either rare or none-existent now
Gods decided that it was un-allowed but never bothered cleaning up the old ones
a Cataclysm occurred and magic does not work like it used to

There is any number of reasons why some items exist in the past but cannot exist now.

Hack, by your logic, why don't players just make Artifacts and why are artifact level items not used everywhere in the world for everyday use
My logic is the bit where it would take half a millennium and a ridiculous amount of cash to do so. I'd imagine it'd get done by elves or very long sighted humans (or collaborative effort) if the item was useful enough, but I can't think of any that actually are. Seems pretty impractical.

And pretty much everything you listed there shares a theme - why are people so obsessed with older cultures having more power and knowledge when everything we see about human history says that knowledge accumulates?

[holygroundj]

That is a very interesting question and basically is a great theme of literary criticism.

Basically, we have to thank Lord of the Rings, in a nutshell.

Now now, I'm being half facetious. But in literature we have this constant theme of "new" being inferior to bad. It affects almost everything. The Mona Lisa is "better" than Andy Warhol which is better than... whatever, a reprint from Ikea.

The first age was better than the 3rd age.

There are no more miracles or dragons in the world.
But what I think it really boils down to is that, in our world, magic fades. In the "past" you have everything from myth and legend to miracles, etc. Now you have none of that stuff. EVERYONE can understand technology. It's a disillusioned form of magic. (see the fact that I have no idea how to make a combustion engine, it's basically magic to me, but I guess I could learn how to fix it if I needed to). Magic, or the force, or gods, or whatever have you are just as real in DnD now as they were in time of legend.

So I can see your point, in that if anyone can learn how to make an engine, anyone should learn how to make a set of magic armor with the right skills and if you can do that, you don't intentionally make an inferior product.

But I find no fault in people applying the verisimilitude values of our world onto DnD even if they don't make sense. Even I can only RP so far.

[Eslin]

Can anyone help me with the maths on this one, by the way?
What percentage of all magical heavy armour is full plate should be easy to work out but I don't know how to express some parts of it.

y is the chance per year that any particular armour ends up buried under ten metres of dirt or tossed into a volcano or what have you, x is the number of years between the widespread introduction of plate armour and the present date, z is the number of years between the widespread introduction of magical armour crafting and the introduction of plate, w is the coefficient of population growth.

Shouldn't be that hard to make a formula out of, but I'm tired and coming up blank.

[Louro]

- why are people so obsessed with older cultures having more power and knowledge when everything we see about human history says that knowledge accumulates?
Karsus the mad. He attempted to take over "something", so Mystrel (god of magic) sacrificed himself to stop Karsus. Then Mystra stripped down and closed a lot of ways for mortals to use the magic tissue, halving the effective power of magic.

Before this: flying cities.
After this: no more flying cities.

[Eslin]

Karsus the mad. He attempted to take over "something", so Mystrel (god of magic) sacrificed himself to stop Karsus. Then Mystra stripped down and closed a lot of ways for mortals to use the magic tissue, halving the effective power of magic.

Before this: flying cities.
After this: no more flying cities.

Not talking forgotten realms, talking fantasy in general. It's all over the place.

[Ashrym]

Not talking forgotten realms, talking fantasy in general. It's all over the place.

Forgotten potential gives something for which to look that simply cannot be replicated. Rediscovery can be more interesting than discovery. Lost City of Atlantis conjecture, for example, or archeological styles as a dungeon hook.

[hawklost]

Not talking forgotten realms, talking fantasy in general. It's all over the place.

Because if all the knowledge and technology was better in the present than the past, then noone would ever go into a Ruins or look for a secluded wizards tower.

All 'Lost' items would be ignored except by archaeologists wanting to study history instead of Adventurers who want to gain power from history.

Why would Billy the Fighter enter the trap filled ruins of Yorr if there was nothing in it but rusted metal, old art that is faded and magic relics that were crappier than what an apprentice of modern day could build? Sure, there might be gold, but it would be comparatively easier to make gold another way.

Besides, are you saying that knowledge during the middle ages and early industrial ages was in all ways superior to ancient civilizations knowledge?

[Pex]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?

I swear half the people around here have this weird love for making players unable to do things even at when it interferes heavily with verisimilitude.

It's all because of this wonderful thing called "DM empowerment". Way back when dictatorial DMs were the norm. Not every DM, but enough of them that almost no one knew any better. Any time a player wanted to do something unusual, they were told no or roll a die with a penalty. The (2E) DMG encouraged this. Don't let players get away with anything! An 18 at first level? You don't care about roleplay, only rollplay! You can't play a ranger even if the DM allows you to adjust your scores. Be a fighter instead who always wanted to be a ranger but is allergic to trees! That advice still grates on me all these years later.

Then came 3E. Players had choices. Even two characters of the same class could be different. Players got to choose their own skills. Players got to choose their own feats to customize. More splat books meant more choices. More classes. More feats. Alternative class features allows for more tweaking. 4E did not take this away. It was focused on balance but did not take away player choice. Players still chose their own powers, their own skills, their own feats, their own paragon paths. Pathfinder continued the 3E paradigm and introduced archetypes for alternative class features, new classes, new feats. You can have an 18 at first level, even with Point Buy. The DMGs encouraged "Say yes". "Yes, and . . . " and "Yes, but . . . " were also ok. The DMs who always say no were frowned upon among gamers, and players were told to vote with their feet. As a result, dictatorial DMs went into hiding.

Now with 5E these DMs are starting to come out of hiding. Encouraged by the thought that the power level of the game is curtailed, they feel more confident in saying no to everything even though the DMG is not encouraging that. They celebrate the return of "DM empowerment". With the philosophy of "make rulings, not rules", putting more decisions into the DM's hands these DMs want to say no to everything again. No magic items! No plate mail! No magic item creation! No treasure! Point Buy even forbids 18s at first level. Huzzah!

Players still have choices. The number of choices is small since the game just came out, but they are there. Choice of subclass. Choice of background. Choice of skill proficiencies. Choice of feats. Even the limited number of spell slots increases choice because now players need to be more choosy. It's a lower power level than 3E, yes, but it doesn't take away player choice, player "empowerment" or "entitlement" as those DMs like to deride.

[toapat]

Paladins need to emphasize ST and CH, CO right after

Only barbarian is locked into str of all classes, pretty much everyone does better with Dex. Heavy Armor Master is fantastically powerful but is also mandatory in order for Str to compete with dex saves and innitiative.

sure, you forego the option to use the shove action, but the higher opportunity cost still weighs on investing in str over dex. Most str saves are alternatively dex saves (the most notable of these being Web).

Min-Maxing is actually one of two core-concepts of optimization, and the other is flattening, where you sacrifice the extremes for a more predictable middle road. Ie if a class had a mechanic that allowed them to alternatively roll 3d6 instead of 1d20 for their attack and save rolls. This class doesnt have the highs of crits or the lows of auto-misses, instead typically getting a 10 or 11.

Taking Dex over Str increases the spikyness of physical combat but decreases the spikyness of elemental combat. there are simply more factors mitigated by dex then by str.

I feel that the game is in need of more combat maneuvers which are keyed off str to close the gap in terms of raw attribute value when compared to dex. Possibly with a change to the armor str checks to show up earlier then only half plate and the heavy armors.

as it is, I think the 3-6 lvl range for fullplate showing up is reasonable.

[Oscredwin]

Isn't Str needed to take advantage of the GWM and Polearm Master feats? Two of the best melee feats in the game?

[Louro]

Peasants buying full plates?
Were they campaign full plates or jousting full plates?
Just curious.

[Pex]

Peasants buying full plates?
Were they campaign full plates or jousting full plates?
Just curious.

Of course, along with cups, forks, spoons, and knives.

Sorry.

:smallyuk:

[Knaight]

Then how does magic armour get created in the first place? If players can't make it, how does it get made?
An obvious option would be that it can only be made by entities that aren't PC species.


Please then, give a link to the references you are using considering nothing I learned in my history classes or books on history ever had peasantry in what would be considered Plate and very rarely even in Breast Plates unless they were in the army or Guard.

They're generally not online. With that said, here on this very forum are some people who are pretty well informed on the period, and who have already done the digging for online stuff, including a lot of pictures of period works. Some posts (and bits of posts) from one of said people (found by just hitting up their post history):
Large scale workshops (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18638270&postcount=1432)
An image of extremely wide scale armor use in late medieval armies. (http://www.codexmartialis.com/download/file.php?id=117)

Beyond that there's always The Knight and The Blast Furnace, by Alan Williams. It's focused primarily on the metallurgy of armor, but there are bits in there about distribution. Beyond the specifics though, the big thing is records of sale, contemporary descriptions, so on and so forth. The work is a lot less collated and easy to link to than I'd like,.

[Rilak]

Only barbarian is locked into str of all classes, pretty much everyone does better with Dex. Heavy Armor Master is fantastically powerful but is also mandatory in order for Str to compete with dex saves and innitiative.

Paladin requires 13 STR to multi-class. It's a pretty big limitation. Pure-classed Paladins who do not wish to go for two-handed weapons do better with DEX.