Master of Many Forms - Epic Campaign

[Wacky89]

I'm currently playing in a soon to be epic campaign starting at level 20.

My current build is Druid 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 / Nature's Warrior 5
Feats (We were given an epic feat at level 20):
HD1: Education
Human: Endurance
HD3: Alertness
HD6: Knowledge Devotion
HD9: Power Attack
HD12: Track
HD15: Natural Spell
HD18: Steadfast Determination
HD20: Colossal Wild Shape (For Ha-Naga - Epic Level Handbook)

Some information: The gm has banned whe whole polymorph line and shapechange. The only reason I got to play with wild shape was I sacrificed my casting.
The party consists of: Wizard, Cleric, Warlock and me
My question to you is if you know of any great forms for high level play?
Also what do you think of assume supernatural ability when it's for this high level, I would probably use it to get supernatural flying from the Ha-Naga.
We just played 18-20, and the wizard is ofc. wrecking everything with time stop, maw of chaos and what not.

[eggynack]

Well, you can find a list of forms hereabouts (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931). On assume supernatural ability, it has some pretty crazy uses, but this isn't one of them. In fact, because the flight is a movement mode, you actually pick it up with normal wild shape, whether the flight is supernatural or not. A more interesting use is something like beholder eye rays, for massive crazy every turn. If you're allowed to bypass epic feat prerequisites, you may be better off with magical beast wild shape, though I don't know what particular craziness that feat allows.

[Necroticplague]

Black pudding. No, seriously. In your down time, have a teamate stab you to split you, creating clones to give you an advantage in numbers.

[Renen]

You are playing an epic campaign without magic.
Im afraid... its terminal. Theres nothing we can do...
Death is only a matter of time.

[Wacky89]

Yeah that handbook is very useful for lower levels, it seem's to be lacking for the epic part.

Btw I found a couple of more forms:
Chilblain - Frostburn - flies, large sized and deals ok damage
Bone Ooze - MM2 - deals 1d6 of Str, Dex and Con drain each successful attack without a save. Also it can engulf huge or smaller creatures and make them do a fort save or die
Redcap - MM3 - For traveling and smaller places, it has scaling stats when I gain more HD
Siege Beetle - MM5 - When I need a big bad grappling machine.

Sidenote: Ha-Naga has alot more feats than HD1-21, I think some of the feats are racial. But there is no way to find out which are and which are not :(

[ranagrande]

Sidenote: Ha-Naga has alot more feats than HD1-21, I think some of the feats are racial. But there is no way to find out which are and which are not :(

In the 3.5 update, Ha-Naga was dropped to 7 feats from its 20 HD; none are racial bonus feats.

[Urpriest]

Yeah that handbook is very useful for lower levels, it seem's to be lacking for the epic part.

Btw I found a couple of more forms:
Chilblain - Frostburn - flies, large sized and deals ok damage
Bone Ooze - MM2 - deals 1d6 of Str, Dex and Con drain each successful attack without a save. Also it can engulf huge or smaller creatures and make them do a fort save or die
Redcap - MM3 - For traveling and smaller places, it has scaling stats when I gain more HD
Siege Beetle - MM5 - When I need a big bad grappling machine.

Sidenote: Ha-Naga has alot more feats than HD1-21, I think some of the feats are racial. But there is no way to find out which are and which are not :(

Ha-Naga only has 7 feats, the same number you get from 20HD.

Anyway, if you really want to be obnoxious Assume Supernatural Ability can give you access to the Zodar's Wish, but presumably you're going to restrain yourself and avoid doing that.

Edit: Ninja'd. Anyway, eventually you might have access to a Hagunemnon form, which would be interesting. I'd google Anthrowhale's ExFighter if you want to know what to do with that.

[Wacky89]

Ha-Naga only has 7 feats, the same number you get from 20HD.

Anyway, if you really want to be obnoxious Assume Supernatural Ability can give you access to the Zodar's Wish, but presumably you're going to restrain yourself and avoid doing that.

Edit: Ninja'd. Anyway, eventually you might have access to a Hagunemnon form, which would be interesting. I'd google Anthrowhale's ExFighter if you want to know what to do with that.

I don't wanna do anything like getting wish from a monster. More like abilities that is equal to or abit less than 9th level spells, nothing cheesy. Just fun ways to do stuff you normally wouldnt be able to

[sleepyphoenixx]

If you're allowed to bypass epic feat prerequisites, you may be better off with magical beast wild shape, though I don't know what particular craziness that feat allows.

The one that comes to mind is Chronotyrn (FF), and considering the stuff it grants it's probably a case similar to Frozen Wild Shape being more or less Cryohydra shape, because it's just head and shoulders above any other forms you could take.

[Wacky89]

Well, you can find a list of forms hereabouts (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931). In fact, because the flight is a movement mode, you actually pick it up with normal wild shape, whether the flight is supernatural or not. A more interesting use is something like beholder eye rays, for massive crazy every turn. If you're allowed to bypass epic feat prerequisites, you may be better off with magical beast wild shape, though I don't know what particular craziness that feat allows.

Can any1 confirm if I get SU flight from monsters?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Can any1 confirm if I get SU flight from monsters?

You do. Movement modes are explicitly gained as per the Alternate Form rules (which Wild Shape is based on), no matter if they're natural, (Ex) or (Su).

[eggynack]

The one that comes to mind is Chronotyrn (FF), and considering the stuff it grants it's probably a case similar to Frozen Wild Shape being more or less Cryohydra shape, because it's just head and shoulders above any other forms you could take.
It seems quite good, but you can gain similar abilities through aberration forms. Other forms likely grant worse abilities, but I figure they also grant different abilities, and those different abilities would be the thing most likely to make a difference.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It seems quite good, but you can gain similar abilities through aberration forms. Other forms likely grant worse abilities, but I figure they also grant different abilities, and those different abilities would be the thing most likely to make a difference.

Aberrations are one of the types that gets the best abilities, be they (Ex) or (Su). Magical Beasts however, not so much.
Frankly the only thing that qualifies Magical Beast Wild Shape as remotely epic is the fact that you get (Su) abilities without resorting to ASA or Metamorphic Transfer, and at the level you get it you've had access to Shapechange for 7 levels already.

There just aren't all that many magical beasts with really good abilities. Certainly not the density of cool and useful tricks you find with aberrations or even Dragon Wild Shape.

[Wacky89]

How do I raise the damage output of my natural attacks?
I already have Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Knowledge Devotion & Power Attack (Which kinda sux with 1 to 1 ratio, I know)

[Feint's End]

How do I raise the damage output of my natural attacks?
I already have Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Knowledge Devotion & Power Attack (Which kinda sux with 1 to 1 ratio, I know)

Size increases, size increase and... ah ... oh yeah .. more size increases.

So you have improved natural attack yet? Access to expansion? Those are the basic questions.

Also warshaper dip for a few level.

[atemu1234]

You're playing epic without magic. I wish you luck in all your future endeavors.

I recommend that if you finish your MoMF leveling, you continue with druid. Because quite frankly, without spells, you won't last long.

[Wacky89]

Size increases, size increase and... ah ... oh yeah .. more size increases.

So you have improved natural attack yet? Access to expansion? Those are the basic questions.

Also warshaper dip for a few level.

The problem is I cannot take any feat that requires natural attacks. My gm has only allowed me to take feats that I can use in my normal form.
The only thing I were allowed to get is multiattack if the monster has it I'm allowed to be in effect of it.

Yea I guess I could take Warshaper 2, but it doesnt progress wild shape HD which sux.

Access to expansion? I'm not following you.


You're playing epic without magic. I wish you luck in all your future endeavors.

I recommend that if you finish your MoMF leveling, you continue with druid. Because quite frankly, without spells, you won't last long.

The gm is not using the more overwhelming epic monsters, I think I'll be fine.

[Urpriest]

The problem is I cannot take any feat that requires natural attacks. My gm has only allowed me to take feats that I can use in my normal form.
The only thing I were allowed to get is multiattack if the monster has it I'm allowed to be in effect of it.

Yea I guess I could take Warshaper 2, but it doesnt progress wild shape HD which sux.

Access to expansion? I'm not following you.

Expansion is a psionic power that works like Enlarge Person, but can be augmented to make you Huge instead. It might not stack with wild shape depending on your DM's interpretation though.

Str boosts are probably the simplest way to increase your damage. Buffs can go a long way, bard songs if you have one in your party or things like Venomfire. I think there are also some Totemist melds that increase the damage of all natural attacks.

[Feint's End]

The problem is I cannot take any feat that requires natural attacks. My gm has only allowed me to take feats that I can use in my normal form.
The only thing I were allowed to get is multiattack if the monster has it I'm allowed to be in effect of it.

Yea I guess I could take Warshaper 2, but it doesnt progress wild shape HD which sux.

Access to expansion? I'm not following you.

-That's a bummer but could be worse

-Well at some point two HD isn't that big of a deal anymore but being able to grow and improve natural attacks is just too good to pass up on. Definitely worthwile if you go epic shapeshifter of any form

-As Ur Priest has said it is a psionic power which can be used to increase your size by two categories. The question is if you want to use it. You can simply get a dorje of it (5250 g for 50 uses 7 minute duration ... up two size categories (like double enlarge person)).

[Necroticplague]

The problem is I cannot take any feat that requires natural attacks. My gm has only allowed me to take feats that I can use in my normal form.
The only thing I were allowed to get is multiattack if the monster has it I'm allowed to be in effect of it.

Yea I guess I could take Warshaper 2, but it doesnt progress wild shape HD which sux.

Fortunately, you do have a natural attack in your natural form: all creatures have an unarmed strike.

Also,Warshaper 5 instead of nature warrior might be worth it. Multimorph lets you make much better use of Wild Shape, since you don't have to blow a new use every time you want a different form. Would let you always change your shape into one good for the current situation, instead of being stuck in a non-optimal form because you want to conserve wild shape uses. As aa side-effect, it would mean you only need 2 uses for all your shape changing, meaning you can blow the rest on fueling [wild] feats. Also gives you a bunch of handy toys useful for melee, like more damage, more weapons (no real limit on amount, but try and keep is reasonable), reach (awesome), fast healing (useful), and some handy immunities.

[Wacky89]

Fortunately, you do have a natural attack in your natural form: all creatures have an unarmed strike.

Also,Warshaper 5 instead of nature warrior might be worth it. Multimorph lets you make much better use of Wild Shape, since you don't have to blow a new use every time you want a different form. Would let you always change your shape into one good for the current situation, instead of being stuck in a non-optimal form because you want to conserve wild shape uses. As aa side-effect, it would mean you only need 2 uses for all your shape changing, meaning you can blow the rest on fueling [wild] feats. Also gives you a bunch of handy toys useful for melee, like more damage, more weapons (no real limit on amount, but try and keep is reasonable), reach (awesome), fast healing (useful), and some handy immunities.

The problem is I'm already stuck with Nature's Warrior since this was a previous campaign continueing.
Nature's Warrior also gives me level 4 spells, +3 dmg on natural attacks, +5 nat armor and +4 grapple and constrict when in a form with improved grab.
Would it still be worth it if I take the class 21-25?

[Urpriest]

The problem is I'm already stuck with Nature's Warrior since this was a previous campaign continueing.
Nature's Warrior also gives me level 4 spells, +3 dmg on natural attacks, +5 nat armor and +4 grapple and constrict when in a form with improved grab.
Would it still be worth it if I take the class 21-25?

Probably. Depends on your DM's interpretation of how many weapons you can grow at once with it. (Each is a move action, but they last until you switch forms, so you can in principle make a bunch of new natural weapons or increase the damage of all of your weapons, but this is generally thought to be somewhat unbalanced.) I guess I would suggest that you increase your wildshape HD up to the point where you're getting the forms you're most interested in, then dip Warshaper for a few levels.

[Wacky89]

Probably. Depends on your DM's interpretation of how many weapons you can grow at once with it. (Each is a move action, but they last until you switch forms, so you can in principle make a bunch of new natural weapons or increase the damage of all of your weapons, but this is generally thought to be somewhat unbalanced.) I guess I would suggest that you increase your wildshape HD up to the point where you're getting the forms you're most interested in, then dip Warshaper for a few levels.

actually I just looked through the allowed material and the next good monster is Gloom.

I guess I should begin taking warshaper at level 21 then :)