Wall of China . . . for free?

[Galathir]

I was just reading through ToB and was looking at the Deepstone Sentinel PrC. According to the text, he can use his Dragon's Tooth ability to create stone pillars, each occupying a 5 foot square. As each pillar only takes a standard action to make, he could make four and a half miles of stone wall in only eight hours. (5 feet/round x 10 rounds/minute x 60 minutes/hour x 8 hours/day / 5280 feet = 4.54 miles). The text says nothing about the duration of the pillar other than that you can dismiss it as a standard action. Would this work? If so, you could prepare some pretty formidable defenses if you had a few hours notice.

[Tellah]

Sure! That's an excellent use of the ability. I might use that for a little plot hook sometime.

[Amiria]

One of the great mysteries of dwarven stonemasonry has finally been revealed.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Sweet Jesus, now I have a reason to play a dwarf.

[Indon]

But they're all pillars... not continuous wall. Depending on the type of pillar, couldn't you just squeeze through them?

[Wolf53226]

Not if they are all 5 foot in diameter, then you place them next to each other and they are touching each other. Of course it just says that it takes up a 5 foot square, and not that they are 5 feet in diameter. So it would depend on rules about squeezing between things, which I don't know if they exist, and DM fiat unless the diameter is specified somewhere and just not stated in this topic.

[Black Mage]

A pillar doesn't have to be round, it could be a 5x5 square, meaning that you could make a solid wall of these. Get a team of these guys and you can have it done pretty quick.

[Were-Sandwich]

I had this idea as soon as I read the PrC. It gets better for building your HQ. You make a solid wall, with no gaps, then build a floor on top of that etc. You don't build any doors, you just dismiss/add new pillars instead. Could be pretty cool.

Also useful for setting traps. Dig a hole 10ft deep, 'bout 15ft wide, put nasty stuff on the bottom, then place planks of wood, balanced form the pillar to the edge, like spokes. Then place a tarpaulin over the top, then add appropriate camofluage over the top. Wait for the enemy to walk over, dismiss pillar.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, I wouldn't make a solid wall. I'd make a corridor, fifteen feet wide, of which I'd stand in the middle.

The thing about Deepstone Sentinels is that, unlike their counterpart Dwarven Defender, they have a method of getting their foes to come to them.

Warblade 2/Knight 3/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Dwarven Defender 10 is pretty much the ultimate in immobile destruction for exactly that reason: it has a variety of methods of forcing it's opponents to come to it.

[SpiderBrigade]

The thing about Deepstone Sentinels is that, unlike their counterpart Dwarven Defender, they have a method of getting their foes to come to them.Maybe I'm missing it, but what method is that? Do you mean just harassing them with Dragon's Teeth until they're forced to deal with you?

Now, your warblade/knight/etc build looks quite interesting.

[Fax Celestis]

Maybe I'm missing it, but what method is that? Do you mean just harassing them with Dragon's Teeth until they're forced to deal with you?

Now, your warblade/knight/etc build looks quite interesting.

Pretty much.

I have yet to try the build I've posted, but mechanically it seems sound. You'd need a high CHA, though, for Knight's Challenge, which is atypical for a fighter-type.

Further, I'm not sure if terrain modifiers stack. One of the Knight's abilities makes terrain more difficult, as does the Deepstone Sentinel's Mountain Stance. If it does, you could force someone to spend four squares to move one square for all squares you threaten.

[SpiderBrigade]

Hmm, I think they wouldn't stack, as the Deepwarden creates actual difficult terrain, and the Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability causes squares you threaten to be "treated as difficult," which doesn't do anything if those squares already ARE difficult. It'd be nice if the ability said that already-difficult squares became MORE difficult, but it really doesn't.

Of course, this is why you want a reach weapon. Making all squares within 10 feet of you difficult terrain is awesome anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm, I think they wouldn't stack, as the Deepwarden creates actual difficult terrain, and the Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability causes squares you threaten to be "treated as difficult," which doesn't do anything if those squares already ARE difficult. It'd be nice if the ability said that already-difficult squares became MORE difficult, but it really doesn't.

Of course, this is why you want a reach weapon. Making all squares within 10 feet of you difficult terrain is awesome anyway.

It also effectively prevents people from charging you, since you can't (usually) charge through difficult terrain.

[Innis Cabal]

that build is amazing, and the deepstone sentinal is probably the best PrC in that book. Though in most of the games i am playing it is house ruled that you dont have to be a drawf to use it

[Fax Celestis]

that build is amazing, and the deepstone sentinal is probably the best PrC in that book. Though in most of the games i am playing it is house ruled that you dont have to be a drawf to use it

I'd venture to say that the Ruby Knight Vindicator and the Jade Phoenix Mage are tied for "Best ToB PrC", but the Deepstone Sentinel certainly is a good one.

[TimeWizard]

I'd venture to say that the Ruby Knight Vindicator and the Jade Phoenix Mage are tied for "Best ToB PrC", but the Deepstone Sentinel certainly is a good one.

Jade Phoenix Mages have the coolest capstone ability ever. They explode. Low on health? explode. Surrounded? expolde. Outsiders? explode. Explode? explode. Come back a few rounds later with all your hp.

[Black Mage]

Jade Phoenix Mages have the coolest capstone ability ever. They explode. Low on health? explode. Surrounded? expolde. Outsiders? explode. Explode? explode. Come back a few rounds later with all your hp.

:smallbiggrin: Quoted for pure awesome.

[Were-Sandwich]

I prefer Eternal Blade myself, but thats because there's something about dwarves I just don't like.

And Warblade/Duskblade/JPM is pretty solid.

Am I the only one here who thinks that Shadow Sun Ninja is completely and utterly useless?

[Darrin]

Am I the only one here who thinks that Shadow Sun Ninja is completely and utterly useless?

It's... problematic. The prereqs pretty much force you to pick up both Monk and SwordSage levels, which just kills your BAB. It also forces you to be Lawful Good, since monks have to be Lawful and SSN's have to be Good. The maneuver progression is darned near the worst in the book, and while the unarmed/flurry progression is nice, you lose so much BAB that you can't hit anything anyway, and you can't get Greater Flurry. The SSN is essentially everything that sucks about the monk, dialed up to "11", and then topped off with a wonky positive/negative energy ability that requires a bunch of bookkeeping.

[Premier]

A pillar doesn't have to be round, it could be a 5x5 square, meaning that you could make a solid wall of these. Get a team of these guys and you can have it done pretty quick.

It would be a wall, but hardly solid. It would consist of 5-foot sections which do not support each other in any way. Apply enough muscle to any section - much less muscle than you would need to break through an actual wall -, and that section topples, giving you a 5-foot gap.

[Shadow of the Sun]

That is why you use 64 days to create 8 of these walls, directly behind the first. That would be harder to plow through.

[martyboy74]

That is why you use 64 days to create 8 of these walls, directly behind the first. That would be harder to plow through.

Better yet, stagger them, so the section do support themselves.

[Shadow of the Sun]

That is what I meant, I was a bit vague.

[SpiderBrigade]

It would be a wall, but hardly solid. It would consist of 5-foot sections which do not support each other in any way. Apply enough muscle to any section - much less muscle than you would need to break through an actual wall -, and that section topples, giving you a 5-foot gap. Well, except that the pillars are solid unworked stone and will not "topple." By the RAW it's just as hard to break a 5' stone pillar as it is to break through a 5' thick stone wall.

[Morty]

Yeah... that's why I hate all wall-creating spells and abilities so much.

[CharPixie]

If you can dismiss it, doesn't that mean it can be dispelled?

[Fax Celestis]

If you can dismiss it, doesn't that mean it can be dispelled?

Nope. The ability is Supernatural (Su), not Spell-Like (Sp), which means it can't be dispelled or countered.

[martyboy74]

Nope. The ability is Supernatural (Su), not Spell-Like (Sp), which means it can't be dispelled or countered.
However, it doesn't work in an AMF. What's that about?

[Ramza00]

However, it doesn't work in an AMF. What's that about?
You can't create it in an anti magic field, but you can create the wall, and then bring an AMF to it and it doesn't go poof. Correct?

[martyboy74]

You can't create it in an anti magic field, but you can create the wall, and then bring an AMF to it and it doesn't go poof. Correct?
Yes. My guess is that it uses magic to pull the rock out/create it, but not to maintain it, like conjuration.

[Fax Celestis]

Supernatural abilities, being inherently magical but not magic in and of themselves, do not function in an AMF.

The key difference between SU and SP abilities is that SU abilities are usually considered to be magical-albeit-natural (like a dragon's breath weapon), while SP abilities are really just a natural predication towards magical spells (like a gnome's spell-like abilities).

[Ramza00]

Yes. My guess is that it uses magic to pull the rock out/create it, but not to maintain it, like conjuration.

My thoughts exactly.

It could make an interesting villian, him in a huge AMF Lair (he doesn't add AMF until after he made it) and no magic, while keeping most TOB abilities.

[martyboy74]

My thoughts exactly.

It could make an interesting villian, him in a huge AMF Lair (he doesn't add AMF until after he made it) and no magic, while keeping most TOB abilities.
Actually, quite a few of the higher level ToB abilities are Su. Especially Shadow Hand (Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike FTW!).

[Ramza00]

Actually, quite a few of the higher level ToB abilities are Su. Especially Shadow Hand (Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike FTW!).

While keeping "most." Yes some TOB abilities are SU, some aren't. You as a villain who specializes in the non SU abilities will be far better prepared to fight in an AMF field than the players who are most likely used to their magic items and buffs for magic is so good that they would built their character around such things.

If you plan a battle correctly, and your opponent has not, the advantage is yours.

[Jayabalard]

I was just reading through ToB and was looking at the Deepstone Sentinel PrC. According to the text, he can use his Dragon's Tooth ability to create stone pillars, each occupying a 5 foot square. As each pillar only takes a standard action to make, he could make four and a half miles of stone wall in only eight hours. (5 feet/round x 10 rounds/minute x 60 minutes/hour x 8 hours/day / 5280 feet = 4.54 miles). The text says nothing about the duration of the pillar other than that you can dismiss it as a standard action. Would this work? If so, you could prepare some pretty formidable defenses if you had a few hours notice.I don't have the book on tap, and was a little unclear about a couple things.

I notice that you only mention that it fills a 5' square, and nothing about it's height... a 5' square is also 5' tall, is it not? A 5' cube is not that much of an obstacle, and by the time you have characters that can qualify for the class flying isn't too hard to come by.

Occupying a 5' square is not the same thing as filling it; a 3' diameter column would occupy a 5' square. Unless it's clearer in the actual description, I wouldn't interpret it the way that you have; it would make columns, not wall segments.

Of course, it's possible that the actual description is clearer than what you've presented... but if it's not, insisting on one interpretation over the other without is kind of silly, and I'd expect most GM's to go with what is least abusable.

[Premier]

Well, except that the pillars are solid unworked stone and will not "topple." By the RAW it's just as hard to break a 5' stone pillar as it is to break through a 5' thick stone wall.

Does the spell description overtly state that the pillars are actually "anchored" to the ground by their lower ends extending a distance underground? Just because AFAIK pillars are not usually like that.

[Fax Celestis]

Does the spell description overtly state that the pillars are actually "anchored" to the ground by their lower ends extending a distance underground? Just because AFAIK pillars are not usually like that.

It says something to the tune of: "You summon a column of earth from the ground." One would think that being part of the ground would make it rather sturdy.

[Premier]

Well, if you take that literally, then it's a column of earth, not rock as suggested by previous posts. Quite a bit of difference, I daresay.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm AFB, so I don't have the ability to quote directly, but as far as I recall, it actually states "stone."

[Black Mage]

The pillar is lifted up out of the earth, so yeah, I'd imagine it's not going to be pushed over very easily, short of snapping it at it's base.

It says that the pillar can be 5 or 10 feet tall, and occupies a 5' square. It doesn't specifiy how big around it actually is, but I would say you could make it a 5x5 square and have it 10' tall and make a wall.

Something that just popped into my head...once you create a pillar, it's non-magical natural stone....in the ability it says that you can only create one of these from natural stone, so would you be able to create one of these on top of another to get a higher wall?

[Jayabalard]

It says that the pillar can be 5 or 10 feet tall, and occupies a 5' square. It doesn't specifiy how big around it actually is, but I would say you could make it a 5x5 square and have it 10' tall and make a wall. Since it's not specified, there's really no reason to assume that rather than ruling the opposite, which to me seems the more likely choice for a GM, since that makes the ability not so abusable.

Column often implies a cylindrical or rounded shape that taper as they rise; all of the descriptions in the wikipedia article on columns mention cylinders. It also implies a single rising object with space around it, not a bunch of solid blocks

As a 5-10' wall, the great wall of china this is not (which ranges from 5-8 meters high, 16.4 to 26.2 feet).

[SpiderBrigade]

Well, okay, using this to protect your kingdom might not be the best idea. I think that was much more of an extreme-case proof-of-concept anyway. You'd use this to wall of short-term fortifications, camps etc, when you can easily double or triple the layers of pillars. Sure, a rogue or small monster could possibly squeeze through an array of pillars, but it'll defend against larger beasts or armies, which is the point really.

[Jothki]

Are you allowed to stand on the pillar as you're creating it?

[Jayabalard]

Are you allowed to stand on the pillar as you're creating it?I'd say that you'd have to make a balance check, though the class may get some bonus or ability that handles that.

certainly if you did it under someone else they'd have a hard time keeping thier balance.

[martyboy74]

Since it's not specified, there's really no reason to assume that rather than ruling the opposite, which to me seems the more likely choice for a GM, since that makes the ability not so abusable.

Column often implies a cylindrical or rounded shape that taper as they rise; all of the descriptions in the wikipedia article on columns mention cylinders. It also implies a single rising object with space around it, not a bunch of solid blocks

As a 5-10' wall, the great wall of china this is not (which ranges from 5-8 meters high, 16.4 to 26.2 feet).

You can make .9 miles of it at 25' tall per day. Of course, this is only 5' thick. The real wall is actually about 16' thick. If made your wall 15' thick, then you could put out .3 miles of it per day. The wall is about 3,950 miles long. One person could build it in slightly under 36 years. Not bad, considering how long it took the chinese to make it.


I'd say that you'd have to make a balance check, though the class may get some bonus or ability that handles that.

certainly if you did it under someone else they'd have a hard time keeping thier balance.

Don't forget Dwarves stabilty bonus.

[Jayabalard]

You can make .9 miles of it at 25' tall per day. Of course, this is only 5' thick. The real wall is actually about 16' thick. If made your wall 15' thick, then you could put out .3 miles of it per day. The wall is about 3,950 miles long. One person could build it in slightly under 36 years. Not bad, considering how long it took the chinese to make it.



Don't forget Dwarves stabilty bonus.No, there's nothing that says that it's 5' thick, just that it occupies a 5' square... it might be 3' in diameter. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing that states that you can use this to create a perfectly square 5'x5x'5' cube.

It seems likely that each time you add another layer that there's an increasing chance of the upper layers would tumble off or that the whole thing would break and crumble, especially if the columns don't taper. That is, of course, a good portion of the reason why the ancient real world stone columns taper like they do.

[Fualkner Asiniti]

You can make .9 miles of it at 25' tall per day. Of course, this is only 5' thick. The real wall is actually about 16' thick. If made your wall 15' thick, then you could put out .3 miles of it per day. The wall is about 3,950 miles long. One person could build it in slightly under 36 years. Not bad, considering how long it took the chinese to make it.



Don't forget Dwarves stabilty bonus.

6 could do it in 6 years. 12 in 3. 24 in a year and a half.

So a crew of 24 could build this enormous wall in a year and a half.

[Latronis]

The pillar is lifted up out of the earth, so yeah, I'd imagine it's not going to be pushed over very easily, short of snapping it at it's base.

It says that the pillar can be 5 or 10 feet tall, and occupies a 5' square. It doesn't specifiy how big around it actually is, but I would say you could make it a 5x5 square and have it 10' tall and make a wall.

Something that just popped into my head...once you create a pillar, it's non-magical natural stone....in the ability it says that you can only create one of these from natural stone, so would you be able to create one of these on top of another to get a higher wall?

What happens to the top 10' when you dimiss the bottom 10' though?

and more importantly, how can that be abused?

[Fako]

Looking at the book, the description says that the areas around you are "buckled and steeply sloped". Also, Crashing Mountain Juggernaut refers to your fortress as a "temporary hill". To me, it looks like it raises your entire square up, and has the squares near as an improvised hillside. If you were to use the ability in a nearby square, they (in my opinion) would be connected.

[Black Mage]

I'd say that you'd have to make a balance check, though the class may get some bonus or ability that handles that.

certainly if you did it under someone else they'd have a hard time keeping thier balance.

It's a reflex save to avoid being knocked prone if one of these is created under you.

[SpiderBrigade]

Looking at the book, the description says that the areas around you are "buckled and steeply sloped". Also, Crashing Mountain Juggernaut refers to your fortress as a "temporary hill". To me, it looks like it raises your entire square up, and has the squares near as an improvised hillside. If you were to use the ability in a nearby square, they (in my opinion) would be connected....that's not the same ability, though. The pillars under discussion are from Dragon's Teeth ability, not the Fortress one.

[the_tick_rules]

that dwarf sure would be stoned :smallbiggrin: