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Gallopingfinger
2015-01-17, 08:38 PM
So, I'm relatively new to the DMing thing, and I need some advice. I'm running a campaign with a group of friends, and me and my co-DM are at an impasse. Our PCs are a little prone to ridiculous antics and just overall dont take the game seriously. I have no problem with a little bit of joking and fun, but we're just all constant stupidity over here. Attacking everything that comes in sight, rolling attack rolls on every door we find, searching for hidden doors and traps every 5 feet.

Its just...excessive. And I love these guys to death and dont wanna dictate the way they should play, but does anyone have any tips for steering them to a more productive game path?

Thrathgnar
2015-01-17, 08:46 PM
So, I'm relatively new to the DMing thing, and I need some advice. I'm running a campaign with a group of friends, and me and my co-DM are at an impasse. Our PCs are a little prone to ridiculous antics and just overall dont take the game seriously. I have no problem with a little bit of joking and fun, but we're just all constant stupidity over here. Attacking everything that comes in sight, rolling attack rolls on every door we find, searching for hidden doors and traps every 5 feet.

Its just...excessive. And I love these guys to death and dont wanna dictate the way they should play, but does anyone have any tips for steering them to a more productive game path?

Set up consequences for their actions. In the group I DM, I put a target dummy in the middle of an empty room, knowing fully that the party would attack it without investigating it first. It ended up casting an enchantment on all of them.

Another time, an archer character would always run from fights unnecessarily, so i threw an enemy at him that can outrun him.

In the end, you could always talk to them about it. D&D can produce some funny moments, but if the PCs take things too far it can become a drag

Beta Centauri
2015-01-17, 08:53 PM
So, I'm relatively new to the DMing thing, and I need some advice. I'm running a campaign with a group of friends, and me and my co-DM are at an impasse. Our PCs are a little prone to ridiculous antics and just overall dont take the game seriously. I have no problem with a little bit of joking and fun, but we're just all constant stupidity over here. Attacking everything that comes in sight, rolling attack rolls on every door we find, searching for hidden doors and traps every 5 feet.

Its just...excessive. And I love these guys to death and dont wanna dictate the way they should play, but does anyone have any tips for steering them to a more productive game path? Do not steer them. Do not set up consequences. This will make it worse.

Talk to them. Ridiculous antics are very often a sign that the players are bored with, or anyway not really into the game the GM is trying to present. Find out what's up. You mention you're a new GM, and it's common for new GMs to plan out a game and just present it, assuming the players will go along. This sometimes works, but it relies on the players really getting into what the GM has created. You can help make sure that what you create is something they'll enjoy if you enlist their help in creating it. I find that makes people less likely to be disruptive, because they're more engaged and bought into the adventure. They're not going to want to screw up something they helped make.

Good luck.

Deaxsa
2015-01-17, 09:12 PM
I find the best way to steer clear of shenanigans is to give them too much plot to worry about messing around, they'll be engrossed in the story. and when people get tired of the story, take a breather and let them do a side mission or some other slow part. In other words, curtail player shenanigans by improving your story's pacing. Easier said than done, but I've found that even so, it's by far the easiest way to keep your players from screwing around too much.


Edit:

warning: tvtropes links ahead
Oh, also, if your problem is ONE GUY being particularly frustrating... i'd try something a little bit insidious: present the problem player with juicy opportunities that are obviously not just a drop in the bucket. I don't know what makes this guy tick, but something like making the prissy questgiver (who will also happen to be the living macguffin) ask for help, and seem like there's no repercussions for attacking him (other than being a meanie). Then, when the player does that obnoxious thing, explain (in-game) that he was essential to this or that plotline, and that he messed it up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero). The other players will get upset, and take care of your problem for you. Essentially, i'm suggesting a Batman Gambit (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BatmanGambit) where you assume that A) the problem player will do something problematic, and B) the other players will actually be bothered about this to the point where they do something about it.

(actually, you could do this any number of times if it doesn't work at first, as long as you don't make it look like the world is out to get this guy)


Edit 2: Another idea is (although it could be a bit extreme) would be to simply ignore him when he's being dumb. As long as you listen to him seriously (until he stops being serious) he will absolutely get it.

Beta Centauri
2015-01-17, 09:21 PM
I find the best way to steer clear of shenanigans is to give them too much plot to worry about messing around, they'll be engrossed in the story. and when people get tired of the story, take a breather and let them do a side mission or some other slow part. In other words, curtail player shenanigans by improving your story's pacing. Easier said than done, but I've found that even so, it's by far the easiest way to keep your players from screwing around too much. Makes sense, since what often leads to screwing around is boredom due to a slow pace or bland situations.

Also, look out for dead-end-type failure. If players try something and the result is just "Nope, that doesn't work," they can get frustrated in a way that leads them to trying zany things, since none of their rational ideas resulted in anything.

Shadowsend
2015-01-17, 10:30 PM
There really do need to be consequences. This helps the world be more alive. But they need to be in game and need to be appropriate to the world, and they need to escalate properly. Don't go from zero to dragon.

The great thing about RP is that there's always a bigger fish. Maybe it's the town guard, maybe it's a traveling wizard or cleric. If they're killing animals, maybe a druid or ranger comes investigating. If they killed a criminal, maybe s/he had ties to the thieves' guild. This can affect your story in different ways that you need to decide on. Maybe nothing happens the first time, but if a pattern emerges, you should have a patterned escalation.

For example:

If they've killed a few criminals, maybe they always feel like they're being watched by someone, but when they try to figure out who, they can't. (Escalation 1)

They ignore it and do something else that makes the guild unhappy.

An investigator comes and talks to them (or a guild spy impersonating an investigator). Then a second investigator comes and talks to them (real or fake?). (Escalation 2)

Same response.

Some of the town's services suddenly get more expensive. Or they get refused service at certain establishments. (Escalation 3)

This might get their attention but it might not.

There always seems to be a big commotion in the street the direction they want to go, so they have to get jostled by a crowd. (Escalation 4)

Again, might not notice this one immediately.

Maybe some of their gear starts going missing while they're at town. (Not big flashy stuff, but easily missed stuff, like rings, wands, stowed items, or some of their gold, etc, and not quite enough to notice. Make sure you do checks and perception/sense motive checks for your PCs to notice something missing. Then tell them when they're resting or try to use it that they can't find X.). (Escalation 5)

Now they have to go deal with the guild. How do you find it? What do you do when you get there? What are the consequences for doing something?



Alternatively, if they kill a character important to the story, allow the story to get messed up. First, figure out the role that character was playing. Were they allies to the party, neutral or adversaries? Here are some reasons why NPCs might be important to the story: Guide, Protection, Insight, Objective, Key, Secret Antagonist, Obstacle, True Antagonist, and I think there are others. Then decide how bad it will make the story if you allow them to stay dead (there is magic that could bring them back to life or speak with the dead if they're actually incredibly important) and if there is another way to accomplish what the NPC was there to do. (AKA without a guide, now the heroes could possibly end up lost, but they could have skills and abilities to course correct (Survival and knowledge skills))

Then escalate that importance. (They needed the guide because there's secretly a BBEG somewhere in the area that they DON'T want to meet, and the guide already knew how to avoid him/her/it) Build up the tension slowly and environmentally. (Direct conflict is how they got into the mess, you want to teach them to consider it a bit more carefully rather than beat them at their own game) (In a cave, make it get darker....smellier...more evidence of death....specific marks, sounds, or shockwaves the BBEG would make) (Find evidence of BBEG before you see him/her/it) (Visual example of this: The Balrog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2fwe0rnHak) Now in your mind, remove Gandalf from all the scenes)

(That character had friends and connections that are now missing him/her. They'll be interested in finding out what happened and punishing/rewarding whoever did it.)

Maybe now they can't accomplish their goals anymore. Or it raises the ire of someone the person they killed knew or was in the service of.

Deaxsa
2015-01-17, 11:09 PM
There really do need to be consequences. This helps the world be more alive. But they need to be in game and need to be appropriate to the world, and they need to escalate properly. Don't go from zero to dragon.

The great thing about RP is that there's always a bigger fish. Maybe it's the town guard, maybe it's a traveling wizard or cleric. If they're killing animals, maybe a druid or ranger comes investigating. If they killed a criminal, maybe s/he had ties to the thieves' guild. This can affect your story in different ways that you need to decide on. Maybe nothing happens the first time, but if a pattern emerges, you should have a patterned escalation.

For example:

If they've killed a few criminals, maybe they always feel like they're being watched by someone, but when they try to figure out who, they can't. (Escalation 1)

They ignore it and do something else that makes the guild unhappy.

An investigator comes and talks to them (or a guild spy impersonating an investigator). Then a second investigator comes and talks to them (real or fake?). (Escalation 2)

Same response.

Some of the town's services suddenly get more expensive. Or they get refused service at certain establishments. (Escalation 3)

This might get their attention but it might not.

There always seems to be a big commotion in the street the direction they want to go, so they have to get jostled by a crowd. (Escalation 4)

Again, might not notice this one immediately.

Maybe some of their gear starts going missing while they're at town. (Not big flashy stuff, but easily missed stuff, like rings, wands, stowed items, or some of their gold, etc, and not quite enough to notice. Make sure you do checks and perception/sense motive checks for your PCs to notice something missing. Then tell them when they're resting or try to use it that they can't find X.). (Escalation 5)

Now they have to go deal with the guild. How do you find it? What do you do when you get there? What are the consequences for doing something?



Alternatively, if they kill a character important to the story, allow the story to get messed up. First, figure out the role that character was playing. Were they allies to the party, neutral or adversaries? Here are some reasons why NPCs might be important to the story: Guide, Protection, Insight, Objective, Key, Secret Antagonist, Obstacle, True Antagonist, and I think there are others. Then decide how bad it will make the story if you allow them to stay dead (there is magic that could bring them back to life or speak with the dead if they're actually incredibly important) and if there is another way to accomplish what the NPC was there to do. (AKA without a guide, now the heroes could possibly end up lost, but they could have skills and abilities to course correct (Survival and knowledge skills))

Then escalate that importance. (They needed the guide because there's secretly a BBEG somewhere in the area that they DON'T want to meet, and the guide already knew how to avoid him/her/it) Build up the tension slowly and environmentally. (Direct conflict is how they got into the mess, you want to teach them to consider it a bit more carefully rather than beat them at their own game) (In a cave, make it get darker....smellier...more evidence of death....specific marks, sounds, or shockwaves the BBEG would make) (Find evidence of BBEG before you see him/her/it) (Visual example of this: The Balrog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2fwe0rnHak) Now in your mind, remove Gandalf from all the scenes)

(That character had friends and connections that are now missing him/her. They'll be interested in finding out what happened and punishing/rewarding whoever did it.)

Maybe now they can't accomplish their goals anymore. Or it raises the ire of someone the person they killed knew or was in the service of.

Okay, but if he really wants to stop the problem, he should not react to it with what (basically) amounts to plot hooks (albeit for an evil party). I mean, that's basically ENCOURAGING the player to continue being annoying, because you're giving him positive reinforcement, telling him that IF you mess around, THEN you will receive very engaging activities (running from law is rather engaging). Much better to take a step back and fix the problem with metagame knowledge than with simple game knowledge. (Granted, if you start down this path and find yourself drowning in plot hooks that everyone is enjoying to play, DO IT!)

jedipotter
2015-01-17, 11:12 PM
Its just...excessive. And I love these guys to death and dont wanna dictate the way they should play, but does anyone have any tips for steering them to a more productive game path?

First off, if that is the way they want to play you should let them. But ask yourself if you want to be the DM for that sort of game. If not, then move aside. If they want to play Goofy Game. Let them.


If your still going to DM, some things you can do:

1. Let them take meaningless actions. They want to attack a door, fine, then sit back and let them. Don't let it bother you, just let them do whatever.

2.Crazy Clones My favorite. Let them kill anyone. But no matter what, have NPC X there. So they kill Shop Owner Bob in the street! Then go over to Bob's shop and....find Bob there! But they killed him! Bob gets sad and says you did kill me, but ''I owe my soul to the company store'', so they brought me back. Have him mention how he recovered in Tahiti and how ''it's a magical place''. And so on and so on....

Gamgee
2015-01-17, 11:18 PM
Well there's only one thing I can think to say or quote. Madness is like gravity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9DHw9xdAys#t=3m16s). With some players it's all you can do. :smallbiggrin:

Shadowsend
2015-01-17, 11:21 PM
My response stops the problem, because it turns the problem into an opportunity. That character that *was* messing around is now engaged. Wasn't that the goal? If the other players don't like it, they need to do something about it.

It should be up to the players to decide where the game goes, IMO. The escalation sets them up to have conversations amongst themselves as to where THEY want the game to go, and then after they decide, you adjust your plan. Otherwise, it ceases to be "Our story" and turns into "my story", and you don't need players to work out "my story".

Also the OP didn't say "One guy is messing things up".

It's also likely that the problems are arising from being unengaged rather than being "goofy". If it turns out it is "goofy" I recommend changing planes to Ysgard (or an equivalent). Then you can curbstomp them because they'll wake up the next day.

jedipotter
2015-01-17, 11:43 PM
The escalation sets them up to have conversations amongst themselves as to where THEY want the game to go, and then after they decide, you adjust your plan. Otherwise, it ceases to be "Our story" and turns into "my story", and you don't need players to work out "my story".

What escalation?

And all the modern story stuff...eh. Well, i'd guess this is not a Storytelling Game myself, or the players would be ''too busy telling their life stories to attack NPCs and search for traps every five feet''.

Shadowsend
2015-01-17, 11:50 PM
The OP wasn't specific enough to give a fitting escalation to the actions that were causing him/her problems, so I just gave a few examples of escalations and explaining why escalations actually help the DM even though the game is going off the rails...

Deaxsa
2015-01-18, 12:25 PM
My response stops the problem, because it turns the problem into an opportunity. That character that *was* messing around is now engaged. Wasn't that the goal? If the other players don't like it, they need to do something about it.

Your response also changes the game, which may not be what the DM/OP wants (or maybe he just thinks he doesn't want it). Either way, the DM/OP needs to be aware of the fact that your response will not remove the problem, only repurpose it.


It should be up to the players to decide where the game goes, IMO. The escalation sets them up to have conversations amongst themselves as to where THEY want the game to go, and then after they decide, you adjust your plan. Otherwise, it ceases to be "Our story" and turns into "my story", and you don't need players to work out "my story".

I completely and totally DISagree with your statement about the players being the only ones to decide where the game goes (unless we're including the DM as a player too, in which case I totally agree)


Also the OP didn't say "One guy is messing things up".

He also didn't say that "all the players are messing things up". So the fact I decided to approach the slightly vague problem with a certain mindset has little-to-no bearing on the validity of my comments in general, even if it MAY turn out that they are useless (for the current situation) because I understood something that was not conveyed.

Edit: I also made the assumption that the OP is/was a dude. :smalltongue: I hope it doesn't affect the discussion to serious degree. (Unrelated: It cracks me up that i used the image with the tongue OUT to describe saying something that was tongue-IN-cheek)


It's also likely that the problems are arising from being unengaged rather than being "goofy". If it turns out it is "goofy" I recommend changing planes to Ysgard (or an equivalent). Then you can curbstomp them because they'll wake up the next day.

What... what does this mean? I am actually curious what you're trying to do here... it seems like this would just turn things up to 11 and then NOBODY would have fun. Also, doesn't this push the situation into a "DM vs. players" situation? Isn't that considered bad? :smalltongue:

Shadowsend
2015-01-18, 12:45 PM
Have you taken a game to Ysgard? The consequences of that goofy violent behavior are incredibly funny there due to the true resurrection that happens for everyone who was slain the previous day. You could even include some goofiness yourself if you wanted to. Yes it turns it up to 11, but if you're the only one getting frustrated, maybe the person that needs to change is you. As far as curbstomping...if they're going to dish it out without accepting that things in the world can too, then you maybe do want to think about playing something else. (In Ysgard, it's pretty normal to keep fighting until you get wiped out. It's basically the D&D equivalent of Valhalla)

Beta Centauri
2015-01-18, 04:31 PM
There really do need to be consequences. This helps the world be more alive. But they need to be in game and need to be appropriate to the world, and they need to escalate properly. Don't go from zero to dragon. In the context of this thread and the response previous to mine, it's obvious that I meant "consequences that are designed to discourage shenannigans."

Whether it's big or small, consequences that are designed to prod the players to do or not do a certain thing are at best really iffy. One common warning sign is when the GM tells themselves, or tells the players later "Well, that's just what would logically happen."

Yes, there should be consequences, but the intent behind those consequences needs to be as purely as possible about making the game interesting, and in no way about making the players regret a particular course of action.

If a GM can't see a way to have such consequences and can't continue to play the way things are, then it's no longer and in-game issue and must be handled out of game.

I am 100% behind the idea of engaging the players, but too many consequences take the form of "Oh, crap, we need to stop goofing around and paying attention, or the game is going to stop being fun." Players have a nose for this and are either annoyed that they are getting their leash yanked, or just goof off harder.

Tragak
2015-01-18, 05:04 PM
Do not steer them. Do not set up consequences. This will make it worse.

Talk to them. Ridiculous antics are very often a sign that the players are bored with, or anyway not really into the game the GM is trying to present. Find out what's up. You mention you're a new GM, and it's common for new GMs to plan out a game and just present it, assuming the players will go along. This sometimes works, but it relies on the players really getting into what the GM has created. You can help make sure that what you create is something they'll enjoy if you enlist their help in creating it. I find that makes people less likely to be disruptive, because they're more engaged and bought into the adventure. They're not going to want to screw up something they helped make.

Good luck. This. A lot of people treat situations like this as a competition that the DM needs to "win" through obscure rules and in-game punishments, but I've found that just growing up and talking to the other players like adults tends to be more fun for everybody.

If the DM would enjoy running a game that looks like either A or B but not C, while the players enjoy playing games that look like B or C but not A, then the DM and players agreeing that the game would be played according to B (which everybody likes) will be more fun than the DM trying to make the players do A (even though they don't like it) vs. the players trying to make the DM put up with C (which you don't like).

Beta Centauri
2015-01-18, 05:12 PM
This. A lot of people treat situations like this as a competition that the DM needs to "win" through obscure rules and in-game punishments, but I've found that just growing up and talking to the other players like adults tends to be more fun for everybody.

If the DM would enjoy running a game that looks like either A or B but not C, while the players enjoy playing games that look like B or C but not A, then the DM and players agreeing that the game would be played according to B (which everybody likes) will be more fun than the DM trying to make the players do A (even though they don't like it) vs. the players trying to make the DM put up with C (which you don't like). Yes, this is what I was getting at, thank you.

The GM should always play a game that is fun for them. But the GM should also have more than one kind of game that's fun for them, so they can play a game that is fun for them and engaging for the players.

Solaris
2015-01-20, 01:01 PM
Do not steer them. Do not set up consequences. This will make it worse.

Talk to them. Ridiculous antics are very often a sign that the players are bored with, or anyway not really into the game the GM is trying to present. Find out what's up. You mention you're a new GM, and it's common for new GMs to plan out a game and just present it, assuming the players will go along. This sometimes works, but it relies on the players really getting into what the GM has created. You can help make sure that what you create is something they'll enjoy if you enlist their help in creating it. I find that makes people less likely to be disruptive, because they're more engaged and bought into the adventure. They're not going to want to screw up something they helped make.

Good luck.

I was gonna post, but then I saw this.
I have nothing further to add. Failure to follow this advice may result in damage to campaigns and friendships.

goto124
2015-01-20, 07:09 PM
*waits for the OP to talk to the players and find out why they're performing their antics*

It could be just the way they play it. In this case, if they're told not to take it like a comedy campaign they'll listen.

SiuiS
2015-01-21, 03:18 AM
I'm going to go with the talk it out option. You and they just want to play different games. Say "hey guys, let's try it different and see how it goes" does wonders, especially if they didn't know there was another way.

I find some of the goofing off is from insecurity. It's, frankly, weird, pretending to be a heroic elven Prince courting the fair maid (who happens to be your friend Chester with a beard using falsetto) in public. Being silly is a distancing mechanism that gives them protection from the judgement of others. You don't want to punish them for that.

MatrixStone93
2015-01-21, 07:27 PM
First off, if that is the way they want to play you should let them. But ask yourself if you want to be the DM for that sort of game. If not, then move aside. If they want to play Goofy Game. Let them.


If your still going to DM, some things you can do:

1. Let them take meaningless actions. They want to attack a door, fine, then sit back and let them. Don't let it bother you, just let them do whatever.

2.Crazy Clones My favorite. Let them kill anyone. But no matter what, have NPC X there. So they kill Shop Owner Bob in the street! Then go over to Bob's shop and....find Bob there! But they killed him! Bob gets sad and says you did kill me, but ''I owe my soul to the company store'', so they brought me back. Have him mention how he recovered in Tahiti and how ''it's a magical place''. And so on and so on....

I understood that reference!

...He said, making a reference to the same thing.

Also, OP, you just need to set up actual non-entertaing consequences for the players. They kill guard? Insurmountable amount of guards attack and arrest party, possibly aided by magical items with "Roll d20. Either you're restrained, or X attribute is halved for a few turns" properties. Level drain traps on doors. Nothing ticks players off more than permanent weakening, so maybe toss some poison around? Have fun with it.

And when they get mad? Talk to them, find out why they do this. And fix the problem.

goto124
2015-01-21, 08:55 PM
And when they get mad? Talk to them, find out why they do this. And fix the problem.

Why not just jump to this part first.

Grod_The_Giant
2015-01-21, 09:04 PM
This. A lot of people treat situations like this as a competition that the DM needs to "win" through obscure rules and in-game punishments, but I've found that just growing up and talking to the other players like adults tends to be more fun for everybody.

If the DM would enjoy running a game that looks like either A or B but not C, while the players enjoy playing games that look like B or C but not A, then the DM and players agreeing that the game would be played according to B (which everybody likes) will be more fun than the DM trying to make the players do A (even though they don't like it) vs. the players trying to make the DM put up with C (which you don't like).
This. This is the answer to pretty much every problem arising in an RPG that's not related to in-game plot. If you can't solve a problem with a civil conversation, it's probably unsolvable. (In the context of a game with friends, at least.) Seriously, it needs to be stickied on top of the board or something: When having trouble with your group, talk to them first.