Tier of the Mongrel Mage

[JoshuaZ]

Normally sorcerers are considered Tier 2. This is because they are spontaneous spellcasters with broad ability to choose their list, but the list once chosen is fixed. While they got a little bump in Pathfinder from 3.5, it was not enough to alter their tier. Generally, to be Tier 1 one needs a lot of room to choose daily spells or other abilities.

Given that, is the mongrel mage archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/mongrel-mage) enough to push sorcerer into T1? Essentially they don't get all the strength of a bloodline but they can choose daily a slightly weaker version of any bloodline. The nice thing is that they get all the spells associated with their bloodline chosen that day (albeit having to wait slightly higher until they can get access). They don't have as many options- not all spells appear in bloodlines, and many bloodlines (although not all) include spells that are often weak, but many of the spells that make a wizard T1 do appear as options, and they also get a small set of abilities associated with the bloodline. I'm not sure if this version of the sorcerer is T1 or still T2 (maybe T1.5?).

[Erik Vale]

Given the availability of Crafting you DM can't stop just by removing down time [Light Sleeper Trait, then spend 4 hours for 2-3 hours effort] Pages of Spell Knowledge [Free spell for spontaneous casters as long as controlled], Sorcerers are already tier one because they have access to every spell in the game.

The difference between Wizards and Sorcerers, at this point, is how many spells are known and available, Wizards know more spells but have fewer around at any one time, sorcerers know less [because it costs more], but have them all available for when ready.

And a sorcerer loosing their 'spellbook' is less damaging then a wizard loosing their spellbook.


If you don't want to invest too heavily to get it, Impossible Bloodline grants you craft wondrous item, and you can ignore one spell prerequisite [so your DC's will be CL, instead of CL+5], you can even go crossblood and just get that feat, and then have fun with whatever bloodline you desire.


Bonus points if you instead craft them as tattoos marked directly upon you, to prevent others stealing them, double that if you're a tattooed sorcerer. Triple points for taking the tattooed caster PRC, which also makes crafting them on yourself faster.


Edit: My current 'favourite' caster for being a fluffy teir one, is a Tattoed Impossible Dwarf Sorcerer. Body covered in runes, respectful, honers his elders.
Get's 6 hours of crafting a night [Lightsleeper, Devil's Crux + Portible Artificers table] to learn all the spells [Valet Familiar from Tattooed], and nabs Sacred Geometry to make the most of even the lowest level spell slot.

[JoshuaZ]

Yes, Pages of Spell Knowledge can make a sorcerer T1. If I need to, let's assume that they aren't in play. And if we need to, let's rule out tattoo tricks also.

[deuxhero]

Razmirian Priest brings Sorcerer up to tier 0 (spontaneous use of any divine spell, though at minimum caster level if you don't pay extra/blow options)

Mongrel Mage's tier is likely to be the same as Witch for the same reason: You can prepare spells, but are the ones you get varied and potent enough for tier 1?

[Erik Vale]

Yes, Pages of Spell Knowledge can make a sorcerer T1. If I need to, let's assume that they aren't in play. And if we need to, let's rule out tattoo tricks also.

Shall I presume spell matrix's are out to? [The same thing, but cheaper for some, and allows arcanists to act as spontaneous casters... At the same price.]

*Takes a closer look*
Ok, by level 20 you can have 3 spells of your choice available for a couple of minutes each day, but otherwise you get an ok list of spells...
I've kinda got to say, that because you won't know what you have, your main list will be more restricted, reducing some of the utility of it. I'd put it more at a top teir 2. Each day, you can do a couple of things you couldn't do the yesterday, but at the loss of having a solid list that you know you'll have access to. Looking at it, I'm thinking 'Jack of all lists, master of none.'

[deuxhero]

Matrixs are lower cost because you have to hold while pages just work (because magic). It has almost no meaning out of combat, but it means everything within it ("drawing" it, hands, ect)

They support Arcanists because Pages only don't because they predate the class

[Erik Vale]

Matrixs are lower cost because you have to hold while pages just work (because magic). It has almost no meaning out of combat, but it means everything within it ("drawing" it, hands, ect)

They support Arcanists because Pages only don't because they predate the class

Matrix's are the same cost, unless you are a class that gets spells earlier [Bard etc], however by being cheaper for them, which suggests they'd be class locked built like that. Also, you just need to be holding it, say in a bag... 'I got a sack of spells with your name on them!'

And that's not Arcanist support, that's made for.

[JoshuaZ]

*Takes a closer look*
Ok, by level 20 you can have 3 spells of your choice available for a couple of minutes each day, but otherwise you get an ok list of spells...
I've kinda got to say, that because you won't know what you have, your main list will be more restricted, reducing some of the utility of it. I'd put it more at a top teir 2. Each day, you can do a couple of things you couldn't do the yesterday, but at the loss of having a solid list that you know you'll have access to. Looking at it, I'm thinking 'Jack of all lists, master of none.'

I don't think you are reading Bloodline Spells quite correctly. You only get access to bloodline arcana a limited number of times daily, but Bloodline Spells reads:


At 7th level, each day when she selects her bloodline, a mongrel mage adds the 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells from her selected bloodline to her current list of spells known.

At 13th level, each day when she selects her bloodline, a mongrel mage adds the 4th-, 5th-, and 6th-level spells from her selected bloodline to her current list of spells known.

At 19th level, each day when she selects her bloodline, a mongrel mage adds the 7th-, 8th-, and 9th-level spells from her selected bloodline to her current list of spells known.

So you get a lot more than 3 spells and can use them any time of day.

[Erik Vale]

I put the Bloodline spells as an OK list. I was talking about the Arcane bloodline for 3 spells of your choice.

And you're only going to have an OK list, because you have to be prepared for when your pants are down, and you've got to be prepared to lack some utility spells, because you're swapping out lists every day. Which, if you read the rest of my response, you'd know :smallsigh:.

[JoshuaZ]

I put the Bloodline spells as an OK list. I was talking about the Arcane bloodline for 3 spells of your choice.

Ah, I see. Misread what you wrote. In that case, essentially agree with your analysis.