Creating a high level character at an optimizer's table (Dnd 3.5)

[johannart]

Hello, I am in desperate need of a Level 12 character for a campaign starting in a few weeks. The campaign itself is a time skip past the previous campaign we wrapped up a few months ago. Counting myself it is currently a 4 person table with 3 optimizers playing a Cleric/Oracle, Shapeshifter Druid, and Skill-Monkey Rogue. I am not a huge 3.5 player and am used to far lower leveled campaigns. I need suggestions for a character to fit into this party that is preferably not a primary caster. I play mostly tank melee characters which to my knowledge is not viable at this level without some serious rules abuse. I start with the standard amount of gold for starting a Level 12 character, the character has to play nice with a nice version of the god Zarus (the end of the last campaign had us turn him from Lawful Evil to Neutral Good), and one of my character's parent's has to be Human. If at all possible I would greatly appreciate the ability to be able to punch the Cleric in the face for some decent damage if I need to (I have my reasons). Please and Thank You for any help you can give me!

[Renen]

It really depends on how high the OP seiling is.
If its "low" then be a straight wizard, and do any number of things from polymorph shenanigans to normal wizard "save or get bent" spells.

If its "high" OP, be a wizard with PrCs.

So... just how high do you want to optimise?

[johannart]

In the Previous campaign I played a Wizard/Fate Spinner and it didnt work out so well, best I ever did was a Cloud Kill + Wall of force to kill a building full of Orcs. Otherwise I was a wall of Force bot with a gambling obsession and an imp with attitude. If you can give me a wizard build that prestige classes into something interesting that'd be more helpful than just saying "Go Wizard". At this point I need specific reasons to go wizard. Oh and its relevant that I need the new character to be good.

[Troacctid]

Casters rule the roost at high levels. There's just not much you can do in this game that's better than casting high level spells.

You could try a theurge build. I am personally a fan of Soulcaster, from Magic of Incarnum.

If Pathfinder material is allowed, Summoner would be a great choice. It gives you the power of a caster while still being an enormous beatstick. The same is true for Druid to a lesser extent, but it seems you've already got one of those.

[johannart]

Is there any sort of a good Caster melee class I could do? Id like to be able to swing a sword and slice through a castle or something.

[Troacctid]

Oh, sure, loads. Abjurant Champion, Swiftblade, and Jade Phoenix Mage are a few of the best ones for arcane casters. Ordained Champion, Fist of Raziel, and Ruby Knight Vindicator are all strong choices for divine casters. There are plenty of other options too.

[johannart]

Id like to stay away from a divine class if possible, the cleric is a cleric of Zarus and Id like to not mix any other gods into this if possible, especially cause the previous party met Zarus and dang he was terrifying. Pitch me a build you think is fun for an arcane and Ill look into it.

[eggynack]

Id like to stay away from a divine class if possible, the cleric is a cleric of Zarus and Id like to not mix any other gods into this if possible, especially cause the previous party met Zarus and dang he was terrifying. Pitch me a build you think is fun for an arcane and Ill look into it.
Clerics don't have to be connected to a deity, as they can instead be connected to an ideal, and druids don't really have much of a connection to deities at all. If that's your only issue with divine classes, then either of those should serve you well in the goal of high optimization beat stickery.

[Renen]

Seriously, if you wanna know what spells are good, just take a read of this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394

Just doing it simple: Polymorph into a hydra, share polymorph with your familiar to make him become some ranged support thing. Buff up with bulls strength, wraithstrike and similar. Then just make your 12 or so attacks against an enemy. They are now dead.

If you wanna know what PrC, just cheese your way into Rainbow Servant at level 1, and by level 12 you will have gotten the capstone: access to all cleric spells. You can now cast most any spell in the game. If you still have no idea how to make your enemy cry, I introduce you to the following:

1) Be a wizard
2) Be illumian
3) Have the illumian sigil (part of your race) that allows you to spend turn undead uses to apply metamagic to any spell you want twice per day
4) Dip into sacred exorcist to get the turn undead
5) Get Quickened empower metamagic feat, and twin spell feat
6) Get Mage hand spell going
7) Get shivering touch spell going
8) Have your mage hand deliver the shivering touch spell to the enemy.
9) Watch as your enemy takes 36 Dexterity damage, with no save.

If the enemy isnt paralyzed because they just lost all dexterity, you did something wrong.

[johannart]

I mean Ive been lectured on the most OP things in 3.5 by the party. But I dont like OP, OP isnt fun. Fun is a hard won fight, a puzzle solved in a clever way, a feeling of impact-full progression without it becoming tedious. I play RPG's for the creativity shared by the DM and the players. If all im doing is giving the DM excuses to come up with silly strong enemies to fight, encounters start taking even longer than usual because 1 wasted round ends up fatal, and our cleric is not nice on the revives. I dont want to break the game, I just want to keep up.

[Renen]

Then... be a wizard.
Seriously, just read the handbook.

You dont HAVE to oneshot everything. You just have way more ways of voming up with clever solutions.
Lets say you wanna get up a tower.

A melee would just go up the stairs, and fight a buncha mooks on the way. A wizard can:
Teleport up, fly up, walk up the wall, go to another plane of reality, and walk back into yours inside the top part of the tower.

Same if you fight an enemy. What does a melee do? Hit it with a sword! What can you do? Transform into stronger monster, throw fireball, buff party fighter and watch him beat the monster with his new strength, make the monster get grappled by black tentacles spell, make monster blind, stunned, mute, and fatigued.

So if you want "clever solutions" wizard is the go to.

[Kraken]

Seconding swiftblade and abjurant champion, that can be a solid combo. As an alternative, you might enjoy playing an unseen seer (Complete Mage) as well. Of note, you can use unseen seer to pick up divination spells from other class lists. The ranger spell sniper's shot allows you to make a sneak attack from any distance (1st level spell, swift action cast time, Spell Comp.). Because you'll be a wizard with tool such as invisibility and a great hide score, and that you can sneak attack with any spell that uses an attack roll, this can be useful if you want to go a more sneak attack oriented route. Vital strike (Complete Mage, 3rd level, swift action to cast) is another handy spell that makes you next attack deal sneak attack damage, which is an easy way to add damage if you were going to make an attack roll this turn and didn't have another use for your swift action. Hunter's eye (Player's Handbook 2, 2nd level, swift action cast time) is also a great pickup, it boosts your sneak attack damage by 1d6 per 3 caster levels.

Rogue1/wizard3/rogue+1/unseen seer7, rogue1/wizard4/unseen seer7, rogue1/wiz1/human paragon3/unseen seer7, or some other such configuration will give you a great skill list, and skill points to use it, too. Additionally, if there's a way to get into unseen seer without losing caster levels (the skill requirements make that hard), you don't necessarily need to worry about not having a sneak attack base class for unseen seer to advance, if you take the spell hunter's eye. The spell explicitly grants you the sneak attack ability, so as soon as you cast it, unseen seers sneak attack progression kicks in. So if you could hypothetically somehow be a wizard5/unseen seer7, you'd have no sneak attack until casting hunter's eye, at which point you'd have 7d6 sneak attack damage, and by using various methods to raise your caster level, such as the spell create magic tattoo (Spell Comp.), you could even get 8d6 or higher.

[Teh_das]

You don't have to go caster, it sounds like you have enough high level casters that most things won't be an issue. There are some high damage melee options that work in late game, though not having an arcane caster does hurt that idea.

Look into an ubercharger build. If you want some casting, a bard with snowflake wardance and arcane strike can be fun.

[nedz]

If you want a medium to high level martial type character you should probably look at playing a Gish.
Here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8786) are (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8881) some (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5525) handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?321715-The-Gish-Handbook) which might help.
This (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=333) is also relevant.

If you want a creative caster then you should probably look at playing an illusion based caster. Whether this works, or not, depends to a large degree on the DM though; also they can get blocked by the type of opponents you face. Beguiler, Wizard or Sorcerer can work here.

Whilst I find them a little cheesy Shadowcraft Mage is a high OP PrC which works well with this style of play. There are a couple of handbooks here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638), and here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=714).

At the end of the day though: Player > Build > Class which means that, as you found out with Wizard, how you use such a character is actually more important than how you build it. Now you've told us that the table is high OP but does that just relate to their builds, or their actual play ?
Maybe you haven't worked this out yet ? We certainly don't know.

[ExLibrisMortis]

(something reasonably tanky, reasonably versatile)

You can try illumian (krau sigil, improved krau sigil to qualify for geomancer) paladin 4/sorcerer 1/geomancer 7 (geomancer advancing sorcerer) with Battle Blessing. Convince your DM that

"When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score."

means that you can cast sorcerer spells as a swift action (or standard, if it's otherwise full-round). If you go pal 4/sorc 1/geo 10/abjurant champion 5, you'll end up at 16 bab (17 with fractional) and 16th-level sorcerer casting, with no arcane spell failure chance (since divine spells don't have it). You have turn undead to do some persist stuff, you can get nice abilities from geomancer (flight, blindsense, free trip on natural attacks, improved grab, weapon finesse, additional natural attacks - lots of nice abilities in there).

You can also get something other than paladin to qualify for geomancer, but then you'd lose out on battle blessing.

Geomancer is from Complete Divine (p. 41), Battle Blessing from Complete Champion (p. 55), illumian from Races of Destiny (p. 51, relevant feat on p. 153).

[johannart]

(something reasonably tanky, reasonably versatile)

You can try illumian (krau sigil, improved krau sigil to qualify for geomancer) paladin 4/sorcerer 1/geomancer 7 (geomancer advancing sorcerer) with Battle Blessing. Convince your DM that

"When he casts them, however, he can mix or match spellcasting parameters from any of his classes to gain the maximum possible advantage for any spell with a spell level equal to or less than his spell versatility score."

means that you can cast sorcerer spells as a swift action (or standard, if it's otherwise full-round). If you go pal 4/sorc 1/geo 10/abjurant champion 5, you'll end up at 16 bab (17 with fractional) and 16th-level sorcerer casting, with no arcane spell failure chance (since divine spells don't have it). You have turn undead to do some persist stuff, you can get nice abilities from geomancer (flight, blindsense, free trip on natural attacks, improved grab, weapon finesse, additional natural attacks - lots of nice abilities in there).

You can also get something other than paladin to qualify for geomancer, but then you'd lose out on battle blessing.

Geomancer is from Complete Divine (p. 41), Battle Blessing from Complete Champion (p. 55), illumian from Races of Destiny (p. 51, relevant feat on p. 153).

This looks like a silly amount of fun, but as I stated above the main restriction is that my character has to have at least one genetic human parent. Ill run it by my DM but I might need something slightly more on the traditional side.

[thethird]

This looks like a silly amount of fun, but as I stated above the main restriction is that my character has to have at least one genetic human parent. Ill run it by my DM but I might need something slightly more on the traditional side.

If you want to do that, please, please don't lose 4 caster levels. Be a silver piromancer, or a sha'ir or something.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This looks like a silly amount of fun, but as I stated above the main restriction is that my character has to have at least one genetic human parent. Ill run it by my DM but I might need something slightly more on the traditional side.

I'm glad it sounds good, so here's some reasons for your DM:

Illumians are humanoid (human), so they are human for class prerequisites etc..
Illumians are transformed humans: they bound themselves to their language and script (by ritual)*. Genetically (assuming non-magical genetics), they are humans.
Illumians were only created recently (as species).
Illumians can still be created from humans, using the same ritual that created the first illumian.
Illumians can probably cross-breed with humans, to create illumians or humans, as wanted/required.

Therefore, it is entirely plausible that a living illumian has a human parent, was born human, or simply counts as human for everything anyway.


*Apparently "granting the power of an eldritch language made flesh" whatever that is. It sounds cool though :D.

@thethird: is there a better way to quicken all your (8th-level, CL 18) spells for free, and pick up Divine Grace and turn undead? Of course if the free quickening doesn't work, it's not a very good gish, but that's not the point - we're assuming it does.

[Gandariel]

Or, you can just be a melee character.

Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy (different kind of rage, gives 1 extra attack per turn) and whatever spirit totem that gives you Pounce.

Add in Fist of the forest (3 levels, a lot of awesome stuff)

Then go Bear Warrior for 5 levels (turn into a bear and wreck stuff)

Also consider Frostrager, for extra cold damage on unarmed strikes. Plus other nice things.

You'll be a kick ass unarmed melee character.
Consider the feats: Snap kick, improved/Superior unarmed strike.

[Callin]

Play a Tripper build with Crusader for the stance I forget at the moment. Add a Spiked Chain and make yourself as big as you can get. Lion/Wolf Totem Barb 2 for pounce and Imp Trip. Get Knockdown and completly lock down a huge area around you.

[Darrin]

Race: Gnome
Bard 2/Crusader 10
Feats:
Arcane Disciple: Luck Domain (1st)
Imbued Healing (3rd)
Improved Shield Bash (6th)
Shield Specialization (9th)
Martial Stance: Aura of Chaos (12th)

Arm your gnome with a light shield. Cast CLW to activate Imbued Healing. Next round, shield bash for infinite damage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=3300686&postcount=38).

[johannart]

So I had an extensive discussion with my DM who himself is an optimizer and he suggests a divine tree of Paladin/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator. Im liking how silly it is to spend 1 round to buff the party 3-5 times then make a full attack. Suggestions on feats and Stat spread on such a character?

[Troacctid]

Ruby Knight Vindicator isn't for a multiclass Cleric/Paladin, it's for a multiclass Cleric/Crusader. The way you build depends on whether you want to emphasize the Cleric half or the Crusader half. The Cleric version is more powerful, because spellcasting, but the Crusader version is still pretty solid. (Also, initiators rarely use full attacks--they tend to prefer standard action strikes.) Do you have a preference?

Multiclass Cleric/Paladins should be using Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) instead of the standard Paladin. It's essentially a Paladin that uses Cleric casting. Be sure to pick up the Serenity feat to make Paladin abilities key off of Wis instead of Cha.

[Darrin]

So I had an extensive discussion with my DM who himself is an optimizer and he suggests a divine tree of Paladin/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator. Im liking how silly it is to spend 1 round to buff the party 3-5 times then make a full attack. Suggestions on feats and Stat spread on such a character?

A few entry methods to consider:

1) Paladin 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Crusader 5. Skill points are a bit tricky, as Hide and Intimidate aren't really high on the paladin skill list, but taking Crusader 1 later gives you a better pick of maneuvers. Forestlord Elf/Half-Elf can help (Hide is always a class skill). Paladin casting up to 3rd level spells... not great, but better than a poke in the eye. Full BAB +20 and you still get 9th level maneuvers at ECL 18, but there's enough room to squeeze in two levels of Fighter or Barbarian if you like.

2) Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 10/Sacred Exorcist 5. Skill points are still tricky but doable with human/high Int. Finishes with BAB +16, 9th level spells, but only 15.5 IL.

3) Crusader 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/RKV 10/Prestige Paladin 5. BAB +19, IL 17 (although no 9th level maneuver unless you take your last RKV level right at ECL 20), and 6th level cleric/paladin spells.

As far as feats go, Extra Turning and Extra Granted Maneuver (ToB) will probably be top picks. Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) lets you cast a lot of your paladin spells as swift actions for #1 and #3. For #2, you have to answer the "Do I go DMM/Persist?" question first. Martial Study/Martial Stance can help you fill out your spotty stance/maneuver progression.

[johannart]

The path that he suggested was Paladin 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/RKV 6 (we start at 12).

[Darrin]

The path that he suggested was Paladin 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/RKV 6 (we start at 12).

Huh. Two turn undead pools? Sounds like he wants you to abuse Divine Recovery/Divine Impetus. You'll want to check with him on how he thinks White Raven Tactics works (i.e., can you use it on yourself). Divine Impetus comes online next level. You can start with it at ECL 12 with one of the build stubs above, and then load up on Extra Turning.

Otherwise, I'm not sure why he'd suggest both Paladin 4 and Cloistered Cleric 1 in the same build. Probably better to put your caster levels on Cleric, your Paladin spellcasting can be used for wands. There's also a Paladin ACF in Complete Champion to trade your spellcasting for Divine feats.

Forestlord elf/half-elf gets Hide as a class skill. You can add Intimidate with Martial Study (although you're probably better off taking it cross-class). Might still need an Int of 12 or 14 to get all the skill ranks.

[Tvtyrant]

One advantage os going Pally over Cleric is you can get all of your spells auto quickened with a feat. Make a bunch of swift actions and you get a lot of spells a turn.

[johannart]

One advantage os going Pally over Cleric is you can get all of your spells auto quickened with a feat. Make a bunch of swift actions and you get a lot of spells a turn.

Our Cleric is Lawful Evil, he doesn't do the whole "buff" thing, my DM suggested I spend 1 round buffing the already silly strong team to oblivion then full attack then go ham on my other rounds.

[mvpmack]

Why not do some kind of ubermount build? Halfling paladin 5/ranger with devoted tracker, halfling outrider is a pretty simple build that gets really ridiculous at about level 12 with a 20+hd dragon mount.

[johannart]

Why not do some kind of ubermount build? Halfling paladin 5/ranger with devoted tracker, halfling outrider is a pretty simple build that gets really ridiculous at about level 12 with a 20+hd dragon mount.

I have to be human, Paladin 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6 is the build Im going with. I need to just come up with a spell list now, my two domains are Time and Nobility.

[thethird]

I have to be human, Paladin 4/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6 is the build Im going with. I need to just come up with a spell list now, my two domains are Time and Nobility.

You know that there is overlap between the turn undead of paladin and cloistered cleric, meaning that you don't gain almost anything from that.

Are you set on the build? Because if what you need is to drop a lot of buffs fast there are better/more efficient ways.

[johannart]

You know that there is overlap between the turn undead of paladin and cloistered cleric, meaning that you don't gain almost anything from that.

Are you set on the build? Because if what you need is to drop a lot of buffs fast there are better/more efficient ways.

My DM seems to think they are separate pools which means I get to do all of the swift action shenanigans that I please. Ive been spending quite a bit of time reading on the various builds I could do and the various rulings when it comes to the game and I have come to the conclusion that as long as the rules reasonably support it and the DM actually likes to let the players have fun then its all ok.

[DMVerdandi]

I would play a half elf druid 20.


Play a chaotic good rad-fem social justice warrior and troll the Cleric constantly.
Always whine about the players eating meat, your druid organization working to install a matriarchy, and the various aspects of mother earth that you venerate.

Also get an animal companion that you give a bunch of pronouns. He is a cis-gendered,furry kind, human with species dismorphia which makes him look like a wolf. Get it right.




Druid 20 is simple(in some aspects), powerful, modular, and core. The more your DM allows, the better.
I know you said you were set on your paladin/cleric/rkv but this one trolls so much harder.
If you want some variety, Druid5/Planar shepard 10/ Druid 5.

:smallcool:
Do it Mayne