Making a new "Core" of Weapons and Armor for 3.P, what would you pick?

[Coidzor]

So, what armor, weapons, and shields would you include in a new "core" equipment collection if you were going to take from 3.5 WoTC and Dragon Magazine content and 1st party Pathfinder content?

It makes sense to collect all of the non-redundant, non-superfluous stuff, at least with book and page references to cut down on having to hunt down something in particular, and it would lack the potential overwhelming effect of throwing all of the published equipment at a new player, since there is a fair amount of it after all.

I've started in on this to an extent, though so far I've started on the armor and shield portion and haven't started going through all of my books just yet, favoring getting the easily accessed/linked information from the 3.5 SRD and PFSRD/PRD first and then cutting core options down in order to have a good foundation for evaluating armor and shields source-by-source. (Banded vs. Splint mail, I'm looking at you).

Light Armor:

Armored kilt (PF)D2
PaddedD1
Silk (PF Eastern)* D
LeatherD1
Lamellar cuirass (PF Eastern)* D1
Leaf armor (PF)* D1
Parade armor (PF)**
Studded Leather
Wooden (PF)D [Probably going to call Wooden Leather or something, maybe wooden lamellar?]
Hide shirt (PF)** D1
Lamellar, leather (PF Eastern)D1
Chain shirt

Medium Armor:

Armored Coat (PF)*
HideD1
Scale mail
Lamellar, horn (PF Eastern)D1
Chainmail
Breastplate

Heavy Armor:

Splint mail*
Banded mail
Field plate (PF)*
Stone coat (PF Eastern)D1 [May change the name to Stone Lamellar]
Half-plate
Fullplate
Stoneplate (PF)D1


* Considering cutting
** Almost certainly cutting, in retrospect.
D1 Explicitly Druid-Friendly
D2 Has a Druid-Friendly variant

I'm fairly happy with how I have at least two Druid-Friendly options at each level without having to slaughter dragons. I'm probably going to compare Leaf armor from Pathfinder with Darkweave and Leafweave armors from Races of the Wild and I'm almost certain there's some Eberronian Druid armor equivalent as well. I also like that the Stone coat and Stoneplate parallel with Half-plate and Fullplate and that adding a Druid-friendly Armored Kilt to a suit of Horn Lamellar armor will give you the Splint/Banded mail equivalent.

Field plate I'm considering axing, but I'm also enamored with the idea of tweaking it to be a lighter version of Fullplate that lets one have one's normal move speed while still wearing heavy armor and is friendlier to having some Dexterity. I've also houseruled so that most Medium Armors don't reduce speed for wearing them.

Parade armor I think I only added because I had my eyes glaze over while looking over the lists, and the lamellar cuirass is almost certainly redundant as well, so I'm going to axe those next pass through, I think.

Splint mail I'm split upon, because I've changed the price to make it the most affordable of heavy armors, even if it is the worst and still a bit too mechanically similar to Banded mail.

I may make Silk(en Ceremonial) Armor into a Masterwork-only variant of Padded armor like Leaf Armor is a Masterwork-only, Druid-friendly variant of Studded Leather, and then add a Maximum Dexterity Bonus cap to Armored Kilts when worn as the base suit of armor like I added 5% ASF to them.


On a somewhat related note, does anyone recall what WOTC books the various Exotic Armors and Exotic Shields appeared in? I'm pretty sure that there were some of both in Races of Stone between some kind of Gnomish Twistcloth and super-heavy dwarven plate and Extreme Shields or whatever is heavier than a heavy shield but smaller than a tower shield.

[kardar233]

Races of Stone is where all the Exotic Shields and a fair amount of exotic armour comes from. Exotic armours worth mentioning are Mechanus Gear from Planar Handbook and Thaluud Stone Armour from Anauroch the Empire of Shade. Razored armour and weapons are in Underdark.

Dragon 331 has a number of weapons worth noting, such as the Duom (a Martial two-handed weapon that threatens reach and adjacent), the awlpike (an Exotic weapon with 15' threatening reach). I think the Longaxe from CAdv is worth mentioning. The Elven Courtblade, as well.

[T.G. Oskar]

Armor can be hard to handle. Weapons are somewhat easier, and mostly flexible, but armor isn't.

First, you need to set up some things. The most important is your AC limit: if you notice, the upper armor bonus limit is +8 (+9 in PF). Even the armor bonus/max Dex penalty never exceeds +9/+10; Chain Shirt has a +8 total from armor bonus/MDB, while Full Plate offers +9 (+10 on PF) with the same combination. Just going by the AC limit means you only have about 9 possible armor combinations between Light, Medium and Heavy, and that would imply having 3 Light, 3 Medium and 3 Heavy. That could leave with Padded/Leather/Chain Shirt for Light, Scale Mail/Chain Mail/Breastplate for Medium, and Half Plate/Full Plate with an additional one for Heavy, and then play with the MDB respectively:

Padded: +1 armor/+8 MDB
Leather: +2 armor/+7 MDB
Chain Shirt: +3 armor/+5 MDB
Scale Mail: +4 armor/+5 MDB
Chain Mail: +5 armor/+4 MDB
Breastplate: +6 armor/+3 MDB
???
Half Plate: +8 armor/+0 MDB
Full Plate: +8 armor/+1 MDB

The missing option would stand between Banded Mail and Splint Mail.

However, this changes if you increase the top armor bonus. Top armor bonus is +9, like with PF Full Plate? Suddenly, you gain a new option. Top armor bonus is +10? Same thing. The forced armor + MDB limit makes each armor feel somewhat similar, so you need to provide certain traits to the armor itself. Say: Padded would add DR 1/slashing or piercing, meaning it resists bludgeoning attacks better. You could also have the other forms of armor as variants: say, Studded Leather could be like Leather Armor, except its armor bonus increases by 1 and its Maximum Dex Bonus increases by 2. Leather Scale could be a variant of Scale Mail that is Druid-friendly, as well as Wooden Breastplate. If you choose Splint Mail, then an Oriental variant like the O-yoroi could be also Druid-friendly (though extremely awkward).

Weapons are easier to an extent. You can limit weapon damage between types (a Simple weapon can't exceed 1d8, a Martial weapon can't exceed 1d12/2d6, with some exceptions; Exotic weapons have no restrictions), and then lower weapon damage to gain some properties instead. Some restrictions could instead negate weapon damage decrease or even serve to augment it. The idea is to use that as a basis, and not as a fixed rule; that will end up with pointless weapons by definition, but it's a sacrifice to have a system that breaks down after analysis - you already acknowledge that, you're merely sacrificing the standards for greater diversity.

I'd keep Simple Weapon as-is, except I'd upgrade Spiked Gauntlets to Martial, Punching Daggers to Exotic and merge Javelin with Shortspear (same damage, the latter has better critical multiplier while the former has better range). Probably would downgrade the Handaxe into a Simple weapon (and maybe merge it with the Throwing Axe, since they're pretty much functionally identical?), since you'd expect it as a tool (but not a Shortsword), and MAAAYBE the Whip too.

Martial Weapons would see a hefty upgrade. Bludgeoning weapons in particular: the Flail is indistinguishable from the Warhammer which is better, so I'd make it have a better critical threat range (that would make the Flail pretty awesome; in fact, the Heavy Flail works under the same logic). The polearms would also be reworked: Glaive and Halberd are extraordinarily similar, so I'd probably nix Guisarme and make the Glaive a 19-20 critical threat range weapon; probably would also upgrade the Halberd to a Reach weapon. Guisarme and Ranseur could have the ability to attack (or rather, trip) adjacent people, because their design allows for it. I'd probably also move Kukri to exotic (it IS an exotic combat knife in our own world, after all).

Exotic would probably lose all the double weapons. Two-Bladed Sword would instead be Bladed Staff, which is less mind-boggling. Probably nix Dire Flail, Gnome Hooked Hammer and Orc Double Axe. That would imply newer two-handed exotic weapons, of course.

From there, reassign weapon properties. For example: Morningstar is too good, so either downgrade damage to 1d6 or turn it into a Martial weapon; Longsword and Battleaxe can upgrade to 1d10 and keep their distinct properties, which would also allow the improvement of the Flail, Warhammer, Rapier, Scimitar and the Picks. That way, you have a strong weapon that retains its relevance, and provides some distinct options (choose a Longsword for the better critical threat range, the Battleaxe for better critical multiplier, or go fully 2-handed and opt for Greatsword/Greataxe? The improved damage makes the latter a bit more relevant).

[SinsI]

I'd remove all the modern twists of the poor Mail Armor - no more "Chain Mail or Scale Mail" abominations.
Instead, you would have various quality Plate Mail, that would differ by DR ratings, from DR0 to DR6.

[Eldan]

I'd be very tempted to radically simplify. 3-6 types of armour heaviness, then just make a list. I.e. light armour: "silk, leather clothing, light padding", "medium armour: this includes armour such as gambesons, mail, breastplate and greaves", "heavy armour: this includes mainly plate".

Honestly, that's enough granularity for me.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would go with light, medium and heavy armour, plus separate upgrades (as in Oriental Adventures) if people want heavier. Light armour being +3, medium +6, heavy +9, with up to two accessories, each at +1 AC/-1 ACP/+5% ASF or so.

Then, weapons-wise, light/one-handed/two-handed * slashing/piercing/bludgeoning * simple/martial/exotic. All simple weapons are just that*.
Martial weapons get two upgrades - better threat range or multiplier, better damage die, another damage type, reach/double range increment (2h only), double weapon (2h only), trip/disarm/sunder/nonlethal bonus etc..
Then exotic weapons get an additional one, or even two upgrades if you want powerful exotics. Any combination of these - not taking an upgrade twice, that is - is a weapon that exists, you just have to find a name for it. Maybe a very good weaponsmith can make you an exotic weapon with an additional upgrade, like a reach tripping 2d6/2d6 double 'glaive'.

Start with 1d6 and 10-ft increment for light, 1d8 and 20-ft increment for one-handed and 2d4 and 40-ft increment for two-handed, with default threat range and multiplier, and upgrade damage as for size**.

The results more or less match the PHB weapons, but the system breaks down for whips, crossbows and other weapons with exotic mechanics. As a bonus, though, you can now build a 2d6/2d6 double tripping longbow, whatever that looks like.



*Crossbows get to be stronger because of the long loading time.
**1d8 and 2d4 both upgrade to 2d6 though - you might want to go from 1d8 to 1d10 (matching longsword/bastard sword) to keep 2h ahead of 1h. On the other hand, here is sword and board with a 2d6 bastard sword, and it's still weaker.

[Coidzor]

Races of Stone is where all the Exotic Shields and a fair amount of exotic armour comes from. Exotic armours worth mentioning are Mechanus Gear from Planar Handbook and Thaluud Stone Armour from Anauroch the Empire of Shade. Razored armour and weapons are in Underdark.

Dragon 331 has a number of weapons worth noting, such as the Duom (a Martial two-handed weapon that threatens reach and adjacent), the awlpike (an Exotic weapon with 15' threatening reach). I think the Longaxe from CAdv is worth mentioning. The Elven Courtblade, as well.

Ah, thank you. I've started running into mentions of that Thaluud Stone Armour a bit more lately, come to think of it. Sadly that's from one of the books I've never even seen for sale in pdf form, much less any books in the flesh.

I'd forgotten about the Longaxe though, so thanks for the reminder there.

Elven Thin/Court/???Blades are from Races of the Wild, right?


I'd remove all the modern twists of the poor Mail Armor - no more "Chain Mail or Scale Mail" abominations.
Instead, you would have various quality Plate Mail, that would differ by DR ratings, from DR0 to DR6.

What would you do with the Medium Armor category, in that case? Downgrade something like half-plate or half-harness or wossname from Heavy Armor to Medium? Have something like Brigandine and full Cuirasses supplement Hide and Breastplate?


I would go with light, medium and heavy armour, plus separate upgrades (as in Oriental Adventures) if people want heavier. Light armour being +3, medium +6, heavy +9, with up to two accessories, each at +1 AC/-1 ACP/+5% ASF or so.

So you advocate going with 3 armors total divided into the 3 armor types and then have modular accessories for each that up their AC in exchange for increasing the ACP and ASF but not touching the Max Dex Bonus. Or take out the concept of a Maximum cap on Dex Bonus in armor in the first place?

Would you adjust the prices so all level 1 characters have to start with Light armor, then? Since doing this would eliminate the "low level character crummy armor of this category" options that are currently there, mostly in the form of Hide and Scale in Medium armor.


Then, weapons-wise, light/one-handed/two-handed * slashing/piercing/bludgeoning * simple/martial/exotic. All simple weapons are just that*.
Martial weapons get two upgrades - better threat range or multiplier, better damage die, another damage type, reach/double range increment (2h only), double weapon (2h only), trip/disarm/sunder/nonlethal bonus etc..
Then exotic weapons get an additional one, or even two upgrades if you want powerful exotics. Any combination of these - not taking an upgrade twice, that is - is a weapon that exists, you just have to find a name for it. Maybe a very good weaponsmith can make you an exotic weapon with an additional upgrade, like a reach tripping 2d6/2d6 double 'glaive'.

Start with 1d6 and 10-ft increment for light, 1d8 and 20-ft increment for one-handed and 2d4 and 40-ft increment for two-handed, with default threat range and multiplier, and upgrade damage as for size**.

The results more or less match the PHB weapons, but the system breaks down for whips, crossbows and other weapons with exotic mechanics. As a bonus, though, you can now build a 2d6/2d6 double tripping longbow, whatever that looks like.



*Crossbows get to be stronger because of the long loading time.
**1d8 and 2d4 both upgrade to 2d6 though - you might want to go from 1d8 to 1d10 (matching longsword/bastard sword) to keep 2h ahead of 1h. On the other hand, here is sword and board with a 2d6 bastard sword, and it's still weaker.

Hmm, yeah, standardization of simple vs. martial vs. exotic does seem worthwhile, thanks. :smallsmile:

Not quite sure what you're thinkng of with the base 40-ft increment for two-handed weapons though. Is that for both two-handed projectile weapons and thrown weapons, or...? :smallconfused:

Part of me is thinking that I'll reduce the long loading time a bit so I don't have to buff crossbows' damage too much.


Armor can be hard to handle. Weapons are somewhat easier, and mostly flexible, but armor isn't.

First, you need to set up some things. The most important is your AC limit: if you notice, the upper armor bonus limit is +8 (+9 in PF). Even the armor bonus/max Dex penalty never exceeds +9/+10; Chain Shirt has a +8 total from armor bonus/MDB, while Full Plate offers +9 (+10 on PF) with the same combination. Just going by the AC limit means you only have about 9 possible armor combinations between Light, Medium and Heavy, and that would imply having 3 Light, 3 Medium and 3 Heavy. That could leave with Padded/Leather/Chain Shirt for Light, Scale Mail/Chain Mail/Breastplate for Medium, and Half Plate/Full Plate with an additional one for Heavy, and then play with the MDB respectively:

Padded: +1 armor/+8 MDB
Leather: +2 armor/+7 MDB
Chain Shirt: +3 armor/+5 MDB
Scale Mail: +4 armor/+5 MDB
Chain Mail: +5 armor/+4 MDB
Breastplate: +6 armor/+3 MDB
???
Half Plate: +8 armor/+0 MDB
Full Plate: +8 armor/+1 MDB

The missing option would stand between Banded Mail and Splint Mail.

Ah, good point.


However, this changes if you increase the top armor bonus. Top armor bonus is +9, like with PF Full Plate? Suddenly, you gain a new option. Top armor bonus is +10? Same thing. The forced armor + MDB limit makes each armor feel somewhat similar, so you need to provide certain traits to the armor itself. Say: Padded would add DR 1/slashing or piercing, meaning it resists bludgeoning attacks better. You could also have the other forms of armor as variants: say, Studded Leather could be like Leather Armor, except its armor bonus increases by 1 and its Maximum Dex Bonus increases by 2. Leather Scale could be a variant of Scale Mail that is Druid-friendly, as well as Wooden Breastplate. If you choose Splint Mail, then an Oriental variant like the O-yoroi could be also Druid-friendly (though extremely awkward).

I'm definitely increasing the top bonus from armor, I've already got several heavy and medium armors with PF armor bonuses. Good thought about the situational DRs or other traits though.

I'm in a toss-up between just making Druid-friendly armor more expensive than the non-Druid-friendly equivalent or making the ACP and Max Dex worse or a combination of both rather than doing either past a certain point.


Weapons are easier to an extent. You can limit weapon damage between types (a Simple weapon can't exceed 1d8, a Martial weapon can't exceed 1d12/2d6, with some exceptions; Exotic weapons have no restrictions), and then lower weapon damage to gain some properties instead. Some restrictions could instead negate weapon damage decrease or even serve to augment it. The idea is to use that as a basis, and not as a fixed rule; that will end up with pointless weapons by definition, but it's a sacrifice to have a system that breaks down after analysis - you already acknowledge that, you're merely sacrificing the standards for greater diversity.

Yeah, definitely makes sense, more standardization even if it's softer standardization helps to eliminate redundancy by comparing 'em and crosschecking.


I'd keep Simple Weapon as-is, except I'd upgrade Spiked Gauntlets to Martial, Punching Daggers to Exotic and merge Javelin with Shortspear (same damage, the latter has better critical multiplier while the former has better range).

Yeah, that makes sense, moving over Spiked Gauntlets, especially since no one really uses them but people with Martial Proficiencies in combination with Martial Reach Weapons anyway. I suppose I'd also give Punching Daggers some ability to resist being disarmed of them to help have some niche within exotic weapons along with other tweaks...

Javelin+Shortspear I'm a bit less certain on, but it would tidy things up a bit since there's that much overlap anyway. Maybe allow regular Spears to be thrown one-handed for the rare case where one would actually want to throw a regular old Spear...


Probably would downgrade the Handaxe into a Simple weapon (and maybe merge it with the Throwing Axe, since they're pretty much functionally identical?), since you'd expect it as a tool (but not a Shortsword), and MAAAYBE the Whip too.

I was considering what to do about the Handaxe, since it does seem redundant with the throwing axe as is. I was also eyeing the Light Hammer and how there didn't appear to actually be a proper Throwing Hammer, unless I missed one in Races of Stone or something

Right now I'm currently thinking about have a non-reach whip as a simple weapon sap-equivalent and maybe also a version that has standard 10' reach as well in the simple weapon category, but keep the 15' reach one exotic or just have the 15' reach whip-dagger or dagger-whip


Martial Weapons would see a hefty upgrade. Bludgeoning weapons in particular: the Flail is indistinguishable from the Warhammer which is better, so I'd make it have a better critical threat range (that would make the Flail pretty awesome; in fact, the Heavy Flail works under the same logic).

I was actually just talking about the strange bit where Flails have a different crit range from Heavy Flails and how I'd be tweaking those to be in line with one another, since even with the trip ability + disarm bonus, it is overshadowed by the Warhammer.


The polearms would also be reworked: Glaive and Halberd are extraordinarily similar, so I'd probably nix Guisarme and make the Glaive a 19-20 critical threat range weapon; probably would also upgrade the Halberd to a Reach weapon. Guisarme and Ranseur could have the ability to attack (or rather, trip) adjacent people, because their design allows for it. I'd probably also move Kukri to exotic (it IS an exotic combat knife in our own world, after all).

Sorry, could you restate that, please? :smallconfused: I'm not quite sure what weapon you actually would nix since you say guisarme initially and then you say that guisarme and ranseurs could have duom-like properties, at least when it comes to tripping adjacent foes.

I can see that with Kukris, but it would be nice to still have an 18-20/x2 crit range light martial weapon for TWFers who want to go with scimitars for their one-handed weapon, I think.


Exotic would probably lose all the double weapons. Two-Bladed Sword would instead be Bladed Staff, which is less mind-boggling. Probably nix Dire Flail, Gnome Hooked Hammer and Orc Double Axe. That would imply newer two-handed exotic weapons, of course.

Yeah... I've never liked those double weapons and I've never really heard of anyone ever wanting to use most of them, aside from the Two-Bladed Sword for not-quite-joke characters that are Star Wars references. Good idea about the bladed staff, though, that's much more mentally amenable to me.

As derpy as it sometimes is, I feel that I want to keep the Dwarven Urgrosh in some capacity. Not sure why, though, since it doesn't seem like I'd be sentimental about the thing. Maybe allow it to be either wielded as a Spear or as a greataxe at any given time, switching with a swift action...


From there, reassign weapon properties. For example: Morningstar is too good, so either downgrade damage to 1d6 or turn it into a Martial weapon; Longsword and Battleaxe can upgrade to 1d10 and keep their distinct properties, which would also allow the improvement of the Flail, Warhammer, Rapier, Scimitar and the Picks. That way, you have a strong weapon that retains its relevance, and provides some distinct options (choose a Longsword for the better critical threat range, the Battleaxe for better critical multiplier, or go fully 2-handed and opt for Greatsword/Greataxe? The improved damage makes the latter a bit more relevant).

I'd been wondering about that with Morningstars, yeah, not quite sure which one I like better, though. I was thinking about expanding the Piercing or Slashing of daggers to the X sword line of weapons, possibly with a -1 damage penalty for the type of damage they don't do by default.

So you're saying up the damage of Longsword and Battleaxe to 1d10 so that Flails, Warhammers, Rapiers, Scimitars, and Picks can all have their damage dice upgraded a step from 1d6 to 1d8 or 2d4?

If I upped Longswords/Battleaxes to 1d10, though, upping Bastard Swords/Waraxes to 1d12 or 2d6 would mean I'd need to figure out something to do with Greatswords/Greataxes like making them 2d8 or 4d4 or something.

[SinsI]

What would you do with the Medium Armor category, in that case? Downgrade something like half-plate or half-harness or wossname from Heavy Armor to Medium? Have something like Brigandine and full Cuirasses supplement Hide and Breastplate?
No.
There are 3 kinds of basic armor: Leather, Mail and Platemail.
They don't exist as a single item - i.e. Platemail has various parts like Breastplate and leggings (with Mail actually being a part of it, too).

You can combine them to create any kind of protection AC from lowest to highest.

Basically, I want D&D armor to reflect this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98hRtOJqOYE

All armor works against basic melee weapons (to various degree).
Mail armor is weak against Lance charge.
Basic plate protects against it, but can still be penetrated by arrows.
High quality plate is impervious to arrows.

[Madhava]

Just some of my thoughts...

Warhammers should be hybrid-damage-types (B or P), and military picks should be done away with. Truly, these were the same weapon. Maybe even change the battleaxe, greataxe, or waraxe to type: S or P, as any hafted weapon could(/did) include a pick-esque backspike, or a topspike.

The falchion (groan). The falchion is not a two-handed scimitar. A two-handed scimitar was usually an aldaspan (if you favor simplicity, call it great scimitar). The actual falchion (or later, the messer) was a single-handed chopping weapon, usually single-edged, and usually shorter than a longsword(/arming sword).

Shortswords, as they are depicted in the fantasy genre, didn't really exist beyond the Roman gladius, whereafter metallurgy began to allow for longer swords. The katzbalger and the cinquedea were both very shortsword-esque, but they came quite a bit later than the medieval era. So I'm not sure if you'd want to include these or not. Possibly replace the shortsword with the falchion/messer?

I wouldn't cut any of the polearm-weapons; if anything, I'd bring more of these back. They all had their own distinct purposes.

Not being able to shield-slam with a buckler always kind of irked me, seeing as this was their exact purpose.

There's a lot with shields that could be better defined, in terms of rules. A shield strapped to the forearm was passive defense, & would be better at absorbing blows. But a shield with a center-grip, behind the boss, was active defense; far more nimble, and better for bashing-use.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So you advocate going with 3 armors total divided into the 3 armor types and then have modular accessories for each that up their AC in exchange for increasing the ACP and ASF but not touching the Max Dex Bonus. Or take out the concept of a Maximum cap on Dex Bonus in armor in the first place?

Would you adjust the prices so all level 1 characters have to start with Light armor, then? Since doing this would eliminate the "low level character crummy armor of this category" options that are currently there, mostly in the form of Hide and Scale in Medium armor.

To be honest, I just forgot about max dex bonus (oops). But I think that removing it is mostly fine - the AC bonus from light to medium to heavy isn't that big, after all, and you can still get better AC unarmoured by grabbing a few X to AC dips. If you were redoing armour to provide other benefits - the UA DR and damage conversion variants on steroids, for example - then you might have a reason to bring in max dex as a balancing mechanism.

About prices, again something I hadn't considered, but sure, that sounds good. I would still expect people to get heavy armour within the first few levels, but that's probably reasonable, if NPC knights are level 3 or 4.



Hmm, yeah, standardization of simple vs. martial vs. exotic does seem worthwhile, thanks. :smallsmile:

Not quite sure what you're thinkng of with the base 40-ft increment for two-handed weapons though. Is that for both two-handed projectile weapons and thrown weapons, or...? :smallconfused:

Part of me is thinking that I'll reduce the long loading time a bit so I don't have to buff crossbows' damage too much.

I was assuming that thrown weapons and bows are simply the default fluff categories for one-handed and two-handed ranged weapons. So when you make a weapon that is 1h/exotic/ranged/slashing, you call it a duergar throwing axe or something, not a drow chisel-tip repeating crossbow, even if they are mechanically the same. Either way, one-handed weapons don't qualify for the double range increment upgrade, so thrown weapons would have smaller increments than nearly every martial and exotic two-handed ranged weapon, which fluff-wise are called bows.

I did forget the 5 vs. 10 increments rule of thrown weapons. I think I would default to 5 for all weapons, and allow an upgrade to double that, again for 2h only. I think most people wouldn't use it, though, as the second batch of five increments doesn't fit on many battle grids anyway, and a 400-foot range is plenty for most fights (and realistic enough for target-shooting - volleys aren't really a thing in D&D).

You could also make 'thrown' an upgrade, similar to 'additional damage type', perhaps available only to light and one-handed weapons*. You get a weapon with both a ranged and melee attack, which is always nice. In that case, the duergar throwing axe and the drow chisel-tip repeating crossbow are mechanically different. Actually, I think I prefer this, because it preserves a distinction that's relevant for some feats and prestige classes.


*I don't know if there are any two-handed throwing techniques useful in combat - I only know what I've seen on TV (sports). The the hammer throw is two-handed, but that's quite specific and extremely not-targeted. Javelin, discus and shot put are all one-handed, or full-body, if you prefer. Darts are also one-handed.

[deuxhero]

Honestly if I was making a new "core" list of weapons and armor, it wouldn't work like weapons and armor do now.

I'd start by ditching the simple/martial/exotic and make weapons have simple/trained/expert rankings and have weapons scale in effectiveness based on how skilled you were with it, though some have a minimum for effective use. I'd also condense the weapons down and instead say weapons can have X of the following extras. This would stop the whole "some weapons are strictly inferior to others" problem while keeping the original feel

Examples: A dagger with simple training is just a slashing weapon, if you are trained you can throw it and it has a better crit range, if you have expert training it it, you bypass some ammount of DR or AC. A sling works as it does now with simple, you can reload for free if you are trained and if you have expert training you can use it to lob non-standard projectiles (alchemical weapons).

"Polearm" is a single weapon with reach that can be given X of the follow: Trip, two damage types, brace, one handed use, double damage on a mounted charge ect (because let's face it, some culture somewhere has implmented pretty much any possible combination). A "dagger" could be a tanto, a kurkri, a baselard and they would all have the same stats

[georgie_leech]

Honestly if I was making a new "core" list of weapons and armor, it wouldn't work like weapons and armor do now.

I'd start by ditching the simple/martial/exotic and make weapons have simple/trained/expert rankings and have weapons scale in effectiveness based on how skilled you were with it, though some have a minimum for effective use. I'd also condense the weapons down and instead say weapons can have X of the following extras. This would stop the whole "some weapons are strictly inferior to others" problem while keeping the original feel

Examples: A dagger with simple training is just a slashing weapon, if you are trained you can throw it and it has a better crit range, if you have expert training it it, you bypass some ammount of DR or AC. A sling works as it does now with simple, you can reload for free if you are trained and if you have expert training you can use it to lob non-standard projectiles (alchemical weapons).

"Polearm" is a single weapon with reach that can be given X of the follow: Trip, two damage types, brace, one handed use, double damage on a mounted charge ect (because let's face it, some culture somewhere has implmented pretty much any possible combination). A "dagger" could be a tanto, a kurkri, a baselard and they would all have the same stats

That's interesting enough that I just might "steal" it for a game at some point. With your permission. :smallsmile:

[Glorius Nippon]

It all depends on how realistic you want to get with your categories.

For example, IRL plate armor was more or less split into two different categories, field plate (something you could reasonably fight on foot in), and cavalry plate (EXTREMELY heavy armor that you were expected to wear while on horse back, and no where else).

In general I would break down all of the armor into families of their own, while adding a few extra pieces.

For example, taking what I said earlier about plate armor into account, there could be Field Plate, Full Plate, and Knightly Plate, all part of the Plate Armor family, but all filling different roles. Field plate could be a lighter version that provides good general protection while still allowing you to retain a better dex bonus than the others, Full Plate being a little bit heavier than that and having a bit lower, and even heavier for Knightly Plate.

Don't forget to make each have their own special quirks tho. Field plate could for instance not give as high of a bonus to armor when being attacked from the back, Knightly Plate give you a minus to rolls while on foot, ect.

*note they don't have to all be downsides, just some things that came to mind

The same sort of weapon Families could be put into effect with weapons too. IRL a longsword and a bastard sword generally are fairly similar, so they could both be put into something along the lines of a Standard Swords Family.

*quick tangent, longswords are not one handed weapons, at least not when specifically referred to as a longsword

[deuxhero]

@georgie_leech

You'd need to fully expand it like I'm too lazy to do so go ahead.

[Seerow]

Regarding Armor: I universally recommend trying to make it actually worth using. The problem is that Heavy Armor has an annoying tendency of coming with lots of downsides and no upsides vs light armor with a good dex, and very few advantages over just ignoring AC altogether in favor of other forms of defense.


T.G. Oskar already posted up a list of armor types and what their Armor + MDB adds up to. I'd actually recommend modifying that a little. Going with something like:

Light:
Padded: +1 armor/+8 MDB
Leather: +2 armor/+7 MDB
Chain Shirt: +3 armor/+6 MDB
Medium:
Chain Mail: +4 armor/+6 MDB
Scale Mail: +5 armor/+5 MDB
Breastplate: +6 armor/+4 MDB
Heavy:
??? +7 armor/+4 MDB
Half Plate: +8 armor/+3 MDB
Full Plate: +9 armor/+2 MDB

Basically make each category higher give a slightly higher total bonus.

Also consider swapping around the encumbrance penalties (ie in Medium Armor you can move at your full speed, but only run at x3. In heavy you take the movement penalty), or rework those penalties entirely (I generally let characters with enough strength ignore movement penalties from heavy armor entirely).

Alternatively I liked the idea of having a baseline armor for each category with odds and ends to modify it.


One other consideration for making heavy armor more valuable is allowing heavy armor to have more customization (ie allow one customization for light armor, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy), or even more potent enchantments (imagine for a moment there was just a "Fortification" property that gave 25% to light, 50% to medium, and 100% to heavy, instead of gradually increasing properties. Or just a single energy resistance property that scaled with armor type). Just spitballing on these, but possibly worth considering.

[Madhava]

Agree that what you can do with a simple weapon, is often anything but simple.

Throwing a dagger, and expecting it to not bash the target with the handle-end is difficult. Blade-throwing is practically an art form. And to do this, in the heat of combat, is asking a lot of the artist. Yet at the same time, stabbing at something with a dagger is quite simple.

Using a sling, and not hurting yourself, is tricky without practice. Using a sling, not hurting yourself, and hitting a mobile target in combat, requires a lot of practice. Unless one's character is from a culture which traditionally hunts with slings. How they'd ever considered a sling to be a simple weapon is beyond me. Simple to aquire, or simple to build, sure.

Something else that the current rules fail to consider enough, is weapon reach. Weapon reach should be more significant.

If one is wielding a dagger, you simply cannot safely approach & engage someone with an arming sword. Similarly, Mr. Arming Sword cannot engage Mr. Spear, et al (unless he has a shield, or something else, to bat away, or trap/lock his opponent's spear).

Yes, the rules account for reach weapons, & creatures with reach due to size. But I've always felt there should be something more to it.

[SinsI]

It all depends on how realistic you want to get with your categories.

For example, IRL plate armor was more or less split into two different categories, field plate (something you could reasonably fight on foot in), and cavalry plate (EXTREMELY heavy armor that you were expected to wear while on horse back, and no where else).

Correction: both versions are perfectly viable for foot combat. Cavalry version had heavier defense in the front, but reduced (in some cases up to zero) defense in the back/legs part that were protected by the horse, as you can see in the video above - so it won't provide as good a protection, but you can still stand up and swing a sword even if you fall from your horse.


If we are talking about D&D armor, we must not forget that real life armor was developed to provide protection from all the viable threats in real world, and changes in those threats affected its design and function.

What I mean is that D&D has LOTS AND LOTS of sources of exotic threats (most of them of magical and supernatural origin) - so armor in D&D absolutely must reflect this.
1st level wizard can fire a Magic Missile that ignores any armor worn by the defender - I find it extremely unbelievable that no one is willing to incorporate some kind of protection from at least that...

[deuxhero]

For armor, I'd include Agile Halfplate from PF, but explicitly make it so someone in Mithiral Agile Halfplate moves their full speed. This creates an actual reason to use a heavy armor over full plate by the time special materials are usable.

[Coidzor]

No.
There are 3 kinds of basic armor: Leather, Mail and Platemail.
They don't exist as a single item - i.e. Platemail has various parts like Breastplate and leggings (with Mail actually being a part of it, too).

You can combine them to create any kind of protection AC from lowest to highest.

Basically, I want D&D armor to reflect this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98hRtOJqOYE

All armor works against basic melee weapons (to various degree).
Mail armor is weak against Lance charge.
Basic plate protects against it, but can still be penetrated by arrows.
High quality plate is impervious to arrows.

So... Modular armor based upon covering individual body parts or areas of the body? That seems potentially problematic without developing a more robust called-shots/VATS system. At least, I'm not seeing a clear way to model the effect in system beyond certain armor pieces having minor DR with various things that can get around that DR.


To be honest, I just forgot about max dex bonus (oops). But I think that removing it is mostly fine - the AC bonus from light to medium to heavy isn't that big, after all, and you can still get better AC unarmoured by grabbing a few X to AC dips. If you were redoing armour to provide other benefits - the UA DR and damage conversion variants on steroids, for example - then you might have a reason to bring in max dex as a balancing mechanism.

About prices, again something I hadn't considered, but sure, that sounds good. I would still expect people to get heavy armour within the first few levels, but that's probably reasonable, if NPC knights are level 3 or 4.

I suppose having the same max dex across the board would make heavy armors a bit more advantageous or at least reward a higher dexterity for more characters. I've definitely been considering increasing the max dex across the board, certainly. Probably not going to use the Unearthed Arcana Armor as DR rules, though. I'm not familiar with the damage conversion variant you've mentioned though, where is that found? :smallconfused:

Fair enough.


I was assuming that thrown weapons and bows are simply the default fluff categories for one-handed and two-handed ranged weapons. So when you make a weapon that is 1h/exotic/ranged/slashing, you call it a duergar throwing axe or something, not a drow chisel-tip repeating crossbow, even if they are mechanically the same. Either way, one-handed weapons don't qualify for the double range increment upgrade, so thrown weapons would have smaller increments than nearly every martial and exotic two-handed ranged weapon, which fluff-wise are called bows.

Ahh, ok, I get you now. :smallsmile:


I did forget the 5 vs. 10 increments rule of thrown weapons. I think I would default to 5 for all weapons, and allow an upgrade to double that, again for 2h only. I think most people wouldn't use it, though, as the second batch of five increments doesn't fit on many battle grids anyway, and a 400-foot range is plenty for most fights (and realistic enough for target-shooting - volleys aren't really a thing in D&D).

You could also make 'thrown' an upgrade, similar to 'additional damage type', perhaps available only to light and one-handed weapons*. You get a weapon with both a ranged and melee attack, which is always nice. In that case, the duergar throwing axe and the drow chisel-tip repeating crossbow are mechanically different. Actually, I think I prefer this, because it preserves a distinction that's relevant for some feats and prestige classes.

Yeah, it is pretty rare to run into actually using the full range increment, since only very specialized builds want to or can hit something reliably well from over 300 yards.

Thrown weapons do get to apply strength to damage which is something of an advantage or at least a difference, so it makes sense to include that in a modular standardization of the weapons, yeah.


*I don't know if there are any two-handed throwing techniques useful in combat - I only know what I've seen on TV (sports). The the hammer throw is two-handed, but that's quite specific and extremely not-targeted. Javelin, discus and shot put are all one-handed, or full-body, if you prefer. Darts are also one-handed.

Point. I couldn't remember if there are any two-handed throwing weapons to potentially worry about converting or not, mostly, though you appear to have meant it in a more abstract manner than I had originally interpreted you as, which would eliminate that as a concern, I think.


Warhammers should be hybrid-damage-types (B or P), and military picks should be done away with. Truly, these were the same weapon. Maybe even change the battleaxe, greataxe, or waraxe to type: S or P, as any hafted weapon could(/did) include a pick-esque backspike, or a topspike.

Interesting idea. I'd probably decrease a topspike's damage to something more along dagger or shortspear levels, but I like it, possibly as an add-on or weapon mod for hafted weapons that don't already have a piercing, thrusting head.

Part of me doesn't want to make warhammers into B/P in order to keep the scheme where battleaxes are slashing warhammers and warhammers are bludgeoning battleaxes, but that's probably my being overly senitmental. Making both battleaxes and warhammers have a piercing option feels much more agreeable, though. Maybe with dropping the damage die one size with the backspike but keeping the same crit details...

I think I'd move picks out of core but not out of the game, necessarily, but that's largely because of my soft-spot for kobolds.


The falchion (groan). The falchion is not a two-handed scimitar. A two-handed scimitar was usually an aldaspan (if you favor simplicity, call it great scimitar). The actual falchion (or later, the messer) was a single-handed chopping weapon, usually single-edged, and usually shorter than a longsword(/arming sword).

Aldaspan does have a nice ring to it. On the other hand, I do rather like having a whole string of Great-Xs as a sort of not-actually-funny visual joke, y'know, great axes, great hammers, great maces, great swords, etc. etc.

Which is silly given that I groan at the bad dad jokes of the spell components but I enjoy the great axe, pretty good axe, best axe routine, but there you go, I guess.


Shortswords, as they are depicted in the fantasy genre, didn't really exist beyond the Roman gladius, whereafter metallurgy began to allow for longer swords. The katzbalger and the cinquedea were both very shortsword-esque, but they came quite a bit later than the medieval era. So I'm not sure if you'd want to include these or not. Possibly replace the shortsword with the falchion/messer?

The falchion/messer would be a chopping weapon though, without the stabbing focus. I suppose splitting short swords into dirks and falchions for piercing or slashing respectively would work, though. I'd probably shy away from reusing the name falchion to cut down on potential confusion, though, come to think of it.


I wouldn't cut any of the polearm-weapons; if anything, I'd bring more of these back. They all had their own distinct purposes.

Certainly none of the 3.5 core polearms have significant overlap, yeah. From what I recall of the dragon magazines that reintroduced a lot of the polearms that were present in 2E there was a fair amount of overlap and redundancy, so I'd have to make sure I avoided any of that sort of thing while expanding the polearms.


Not being able to shield-slam with a buckler always kind of irked me, seeing as this was their exact purpose.

Ah, I missed that, actually. I was actually thinking about giving them the ability to shield slam when I was tweaking them earlier to still work when one was using one's offhand to wield a two-handed weapon.


There's a lot with shields that could be better defined, in terms of rules. A shield strapped to the forearm was passive defense, & would be better at absorbing blows. But a shield with a center-grip, behind the boss, was active defense; far more nimble, and better for bashing-use.

Yeah, that'd be interesting to model, though I'm not quite thinking of how one'd pull that off other than, say, shifting the shield bonus up by one for the passive defense one and decreasing its damage or giving it a -1 or -2 attack penalty and lowering the armor check penalty for the more nimble one while maintain its damage and attack bonus, maybe even allowing a masterwork one to count as a masterwork weapon for bashing purposes.


Honestly if I was making a new "core" list of weapons and armor, it wouldn't work like weapons and armor do now.

Certainly that makes a fair amount of sense. I don't know that I feel quite up to that task right now though, but I'll definitely keep that in mind. :smallsmile:


I'd start by ditching the simple/martial/exotic and make weapons have simple/trained/expert rankings and have weapons scale in effectiveness based on how skilled you were with it, though some have a minimum for effective use. I'd also condense the weapons down and instead say weapons can have X of the following extras. This would stop the whole "some weapons are strictly inferior to others" problem while keeping the original feel

Examples: A dagger with simple training is just a slashing weapon, if you are trained you can throw it and it has a better crit range, if you have expert training it it, you bypass some ammount of DR or AC. A sling works as it does now with simple, you can reload for free if you are trained and if you have expert training you can use it to lob non-standard projectiles (alchemical weapons).

"Polearm" is a single weapon with reach that can be given X of the follow: Trip, two damage types, brace, one handed use, double damage on a mounted charge ect (because let's face it, some culture somewhere has implmented pretty much any possible combination). A "dagger" could be a tanto, a kurkri, a baselard and they would all have the same stats

I do like the modularization/customization angle, especially since that does cut right down on redundancy since every weapon differs from another solely because a different branch of the weapon customization tree was taken. Coming up with which weapons to have, though, and what sorts of benefits to give each one for being trained or expert in it seems a bit daunting right now, but maybe I just haven't ruminated on the subject enough.

It'd probably look more straightforward to come up with trained and expert benefits once the different possible weapons were all laid out in front of the old eyeballs, though.


That's interesting enough that I just might "steal" it for a game at some point. With your permission. :smallsmile:

Nice. I know I'd be interested in seeing that idea more fleshed out, though I don't feel quite up to fleshing it out myself.



Regarding Armor: I universally recommend trying to make it actually worth using. The problem is that Heavy Armor has an annoying tendency of coming with lots of downsides and no upsides vs light armor with a good dex, and very few advantages over just ignoring AC altogether in favor of other forms of defense.

Oh, definitely. I'm not quite sure what one would really be able to do to make AC itself more worthwhile relative to miss-chances and other forms of defense, though, beyond the sometimes mentioned shield to reflex saves idea.


T.G. Oskar already posted up a list of armor types and what their Armor + MDB adds up to. I'd actually recommend modifying that a little. Going with something like:

Light:
Padded: +1 armor/+8 MDB
Leather: +2 armor/+7 MDB
Chain Shirt: +3 armor/+6 MDB
Medium:
Chain Mail: +4 armor/+6 MDB
Scale Mail: +5 armor/+5 MDB
Breastplate: +6 armor/+4 MDB
Heavy:
??? +7 armor/+4 MDB
Half Plate: +8 armor/+3 MDB
Full Plate: +9 armor/+2 MDB

Basically make each category higher give a slightly higher total bonus.

I think I might have already inadvertently done that when I was playing with the max dex bonus for heavier armors, but now this idea of having them actually give a higher total AC by going up in category does make a few things click for me, especially WRT to how to streamline what I'd already been toying with. So thank you. :smallsmile:


Also consider swapping around the encumbrance penalties (ie in Medium Armor you can move at your full speed, but only run at x3. In heavy you take the movement penalty), or rework those penalties entirely (I generally let characters with enough strength ignore movement penalties from heavy armor entirely).

I'd just run into that idea when I was poking around other threads before making this one, actually. I rather like it, though what I'd started to do was to go through individually and set how each individual armor affected the wearer's move speed, largely such that the el cheapo option was the one that cost one move speed as well as the super-heavy option. I'll probably incorporate the run speed reduction as being part of medium and heavier armors rather than heavy and heavier, though.

Hadn't thought about strength scores being able to mitigate speed reductions though, I like it, thank you. :smallsmile:


Alternatively I liked the idea of having a baseline armor for each category with odds and ends to modify it.

Yeah, I was rather surprised by the apparent simplicity and am intrigued by it myself.


One other consideration for making heavy armor more valuable is allowing heavy armor to have more customization (ie allow one customization for light armor, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy), or even more potent enchantments (imagine for a moment there was just a "Fortification" property that gave 25% to light, 50% to medium, and 100% to heavy, instead of gradually increasing properties. Or just a single energy resistance property that scaled with armor type). Just spitballing on these, but possibly worth considering.

That does sound potentially promising, yeah. And it would have some impact on the issue of making armor worthwhile in comparison to non-AC defenses, I think. Especially if one made 4 categories for bracers of armor/shields, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor.

Edit:
For armor, I'd include Agile Halfplate from PF, but explicitly make it so someone in Mithiral Agile Halfplate moves their full speed. This creates an actual reason to use a heavy armor over full plate by the time special materials are usable.

Ah, a reason for those to exist. I guess I should go look at the Agile armors in PF again, since last time I looked at them my eyes sort of glazed over and I just NOPE.JPG'D on my way. :smallredface:

Neat idea, certainly. Not quite sure if I like the idea of Half-Plate being the armor that'd be faster than Fullplate, though. I think if I went with one heavy armor to have full move speed in, it'd probably be the Fieldplate option(I know, I know, that's just masterwork splintmail that can get masterwork'd a second time). Or possibly make it the option with default armor materials and then just let all mithril heavy armors have some or all of the speed reduction mitigated.

[T.G. Oskar]

T.G. Oskar already posted up a list of armor types and what their Armor + MDB adds up to. I'd actually recommend modifying that a little. Going with something like:

Light:
Padded: +1 armor/+8 MDB
Leather: +2 armor/+7 MDB
Chain Shirt: +3 armor/+6 MDB
Medium:
Chain Mail: +4 armor/+6 MDB
Scale Mail: +5 armor/+5 MDB
Breastplate: +6 armor/+4 MDB
Heavy:
??? +7 armor/+4 MDB
Half Plate: +8 armor/+3 MDB
Full Plate: +9 armor/+2 MDB

Basically make each category higher give a slightly higher total bonus.

Hmm...I like where you're going. +9 max for Light armor, +10 max for Medium and +11 max for Heavy works wonders. It's simple and easy to grok.

In fact, shifting some parameters around, you could work just about every armor imaginable just by setting them on the middle of a table, and then imagining modifications to each armor to the left or the right of said table. Sorta like:




Light Armor



Padded Armor
Hide Armor



Leather Armor
Studded Leather



Chain Shirt




Medium Armor


Ring Mail
Chain Mail




Scale Mail
Dragonscale Mail



Breastplate




Heavy Armor



Banded Mail*
Splint Mail


Field Plate
Half-Plate




Full Plate




*: Using Banded Mail as an example; could be other.

Ideally, the table would be part of an expansion, but you'd end up with 3 suits of armor per class of armor, and any further expansion would be mostly modifications to the armor itself. For example - Field Plate could have the same traits as Half Plate, but with superior mobility. Hide armor could be cheaper.

This is expanding on the idea, but for the "Core", you'd have only 9 suits of armor, and each one is better than the last but not by much. The switches on Medium armor (move normally, restrictions on run, can't count as Light for purposes of class features) would make it slightly more attractive than it currently is, wouldn't shoot Heavy Armor users that want to have some Dex as well, keeps Heavy as the king of protection while allowing Light armor users to gain a respectable amount of AC.

Starting to rethink that reworking armor is more complex than reworking weapons...

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not familiar with the damage conversion variant you've mentioned though, where is that found? :smallconfused:
It's right after the armour as damage reduction variant, on page 112 of Unearthed Arcana. When you take lethal damage, you subtract your armour bonus from the damage, and you take nonlethal damage equal to however much lethal damage you prevented. For nonlethal damage, armour bonus works as DR.

Combining the variants makes the whole system pretty complicated, but also pretty interesting. For example:
light armour - +3 AC, DR 1/-, conversion 2
medium - +6 AC, DR 2/-, conversion 4
heavy - +9 AC, DR 3/-, conversion 6
(and this is trying to keep it simple by using a regular progression - I wouldn't do this with loads of armour types having different combinations and ratios, unless you use a system similar to the weapons, allowing medium and heavy armour various upgrades, including improved AC, DR and conversion).

If someone attacks you for 1d8+5, while you're wearing heavy armour, you take only 3-10 damage total (out of the base 6-13), of which up to 6 is nonlethal - meaning only 4 lethal damage could ever get through. If you expand this system, so that the conversion remains significant at higher levels (multiply DR and conversion values by 1/2 ECL or something, but power attack remains a thing on the PC's side), you could use lethal damage as actual wounds, and nonlethal damage as luck/fatigue/skill/morale, as typical hitpoints are in the base system.

The variant notes that spells typically heal both lethal and nonlethal damage, so effective healing might be doubled or more. Also:
"Another effect is that defeated foes remain alive (and unconscious) unless dispatched after the fight. [...] it also introduces the potentially ugly postcombat scene of the characters feeling it necessary to slit the throats of their unconscious foes. Some characters, particularly paladins or other chivalrous types, may suffer serious moral qualms."

Instant roleplay value, but it could be very annoying :P.