Filling 5 levels of Gestalt with LA/RHD

[Amphetryon]

The question is in the thread title. If you were starting a 3.5 game at 6th level (expecting to reach 12th, maybe 13th), where the DM said it was Gestalt with the restriction that you needed to fill the first 5 levels of half of the Gestalt with LA/RHD, AND have started a Prestige Class by 6th level, what would you build? If it matters, assume 32 points.

[gawwy]

do you want a caster non-caster or something with partial casting? is ToB available? what is / isnt available? are there any restriction on what you can use for HD?

[Amphetryon]

do you want a caster non-caster or something with partial casting? is ToB available? what is / isnt available? are there any restriction on what you can use for HD?

Whatever amount of caster you like. All 1st party 3.5 books are available as a general rule (Dragon Compendium is a book; individual issues of Dragon are not), as well as WotC online content if links are provided. Taint, Item Familiars, Bloodlines, Flaws, and any alternate casting rules from Unearthed Arcana are disallowed; . No LA buyoff will be allowed. No 1d2 Crusaders, Vermin Lords, Walkers in the Waste, MoMF, Master Transmogrifists, Dweomerkeepers, Planar Shepherds, Cancer Mages, or theoretical-optimization-level concepts. No Leadership or Leadership analogs.

[ranagrande]

Tauric or Symbiotic is probably the best use for the LA/RHD. If Savage Species isn't allowed, use the Tauric template from Monster Manual II with the 3.5 update.

[Amphetryon]

More details: No 'negative LA' templates like Incarnate Construct. No +0 Ghost Template from Ghostwalk. Battle Jump, Lightning Maces, Reserves of Strength, Rapid Strike, Craft Contingent Spell, and Planar Ally are banned.

[dextercorvia]

Dark Marrulurk would be a fairly solid start to a sneaky skillmonkey type. A pair of archery focused bonus feats, poison use, sneak attack, and some skill bonuses. Their stat bonuses are pretty nuts, unless I'm reading them wrong.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lolthtouched (because Con!), Phrenic, Half-Fey with Magic in the Blood as one of my first feats. Tons of SLAs and solid stat buffs(+6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +8 Cha) and flight, with a couple of other goodies. Since PrC is mandatory Psionics is out so I would go Sha'ir into, hmmm, let's say, Geomancer (very low entry requirements) or maybe Incantatrix since metamagic works generously with Sha'ir Diplomacy check.

[WhamBamSam]

Mercury Wyrmling is 3 HD/2 LA. Throw on Wyrm of War for feats and enjoy that fly speed.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mercury Wyrmling is 3 HD/2 LA. Throw on Wyrm of War for feats and enjoy that fly speed.

Wyrm of War get a feat/4 HD so you wouldn't get one. Still get that amazing fly speed though.

[Rebel7284]

Pixies are amazing for many concepts. Constant invisibility and amazing stat modifiers. Random +1 template on top of that like draconic or dark.

[WhamBamSam]

Wyrm of War get a feat/4 HD so you wouldn't get one. Still get that amazing fly speed though.It's a feat per 4 HD, not per 4 Dragon HD.

[Jeff the Green]

I've got one I actually want to play. Adapting it to fit the restrictions it'd be something like Dark Child of Nature Mercury Dragon Wyrmling LA 2/RHD3/Warlock 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Beguiler 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Something 3//Sorcerer 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10.

As is it's Vecna Blooded Shadow Walker Shadow Creature Riddled Child of Nature Mercury Dragon Wymling RHD 3/Warlock 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Beguiler 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Shadow Adept 1//Sorcerer 1/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 7, horribly abusing LA buyoff, polymorph, and taint. It started from a desire to break my DM's Player/Character/Race/Class/Speech color table in as many ways possible.

Alternatively, a sharn (4 RHD and given +5 LA in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade) with the LA on one side and the RHD on the other. Mystic Theurge on the RHD side and dips of things like Cleric, ToB, incarnum, etc. on the LA side.

[Amphetryon]

I've got one I actually want to play. Adapting it to fit the restrictions it'd be something like Dark Child of Nature Mercury Dragon Wyrmling LA 2/RHD3/Warlock 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Beguiler 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Something 3//Sorcerer 1/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10.

As is it's Vecna Blooded Shadow Walker Shadow Creature Riddled Child of Nature Mercury Dragon Wymling RHD 3/Warlock 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Beguiler 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Shadow Adept 1//Sorcerer 1/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 7, horribly abusing LA buyoff, polymorph, and taint. It started from a desire to break my DM's Player/Character/Race/Class/Speech color table in as many ways possible.

Alternatively, a sharn (4 RHD and given +5 LA in Anauroch: The Empire of Shade) with the LA on one side and the RHD on the other. Mystic Theurge on the RHD side and dips of things like Cleric, ToB, incarnum, etc. on the LA side.

LA on one side and RHD on the other is outside the parameters given. Is your initial build able to enter Mystic Theurge by 6th level, as per the requirements?

[gawwy]

Im for Steel dragon for a level 6 start 4HD2LA with sorcerer5/abjurant champion 1 on the otherside.

The dragon levels will give you 10101 BAB and Sorc will give you 01010 bab making 5 bab. unless the LA levels have to be somewhere in specific. im unsure of that rule.

dragon HD give perfect saves and a d12 HD

Dragon HD give 6 skills a level.

steel dragon is +2 con +2 cha

you get polymorph 5/day as a Spell-Like Abilitie and +10 on fort saves vs posions.

you get 16 SR (nice) and 3 NA

and full sorc casting.

[Amphetryon]

Im for Steel dragon for a level 6 start 4HD2LA with sorcerer5/abjurant champion 1 on the otherside.

The dragon levels will give you 10101 BAB and Sorc will give you 01010 bab making 5 bab. unless the LA levels have to be somewhere in specific. im unsure of that rule.

dragon HD give perfect saves and a d12 HD

Dragon HD give 6 skills a level.

steel dragon is +2 con +2 cha

you get polymorph 5/day as a Spell-Like Abilitie and +10 on fort saves vs posions.

you get 16 SR (nice) and 3 NA

and full sorc casting.
Six levels of LA/RHD are expressly in excess of the parameters of the first post.

[WhamBamSam]

Im for Steel dragon for a level 6 start 4HD2LA with sorcerer5/abjurant champion 1 on the otherside.

The dragon levels will give you 10101 BAB and Sorc will give you 01010 bab making 5 bab. unless the LA levels have to be somewhere in specific. im unsure of that rule.

dragon HD give perfect saves and a d12 HD

Dragon HD give 6 skills a level.

steel dragon is +2 con +2 cha

you get polymorph 5/day as a Spell-Like Abilitie and +10 on fort saves vs posions.

you get 16 SR (nice) and 3 NA

and full sorc casting.The current version of Steel Dragon is in Dragons of Faerun, and has Alternate Form, not Polymorph. Also, you need a martial weapon proficiency to get into Abjurant Champion.

Steel Loredrake 4/LA +2//Sorcerer 3/Fighter or Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champ 1 might not be a bad way to go though.

EDIT: If the Mercury Wyrmling isn't striking your fancy, Half-Gorristo Psionic Duergar is LA+5, huge, and gets an automatically augmenting Expansion PLA. Take Duergar Expansion a few times and be Colossal whenever you want. Crusader/Cloistered Cleric/RKV on the non-LA side maybe.

[gawwy]

how does dragon racial sorcerer stack with sorcerer levels? also do you really need lore-drake here?

[WhamBamSam]

how does dragon racial sorcerer stack with sorcerer levels? also do you really need lore-drake here?From the SRD...


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

There might be a concern that the racial casting constitutes advancing a class feature on both sides of the gestalt, which would just mean dropping one level of Sorc (I assume on the 4th Dragon HD) in favor of something else.

No, you probably don't need Loredrake, and with the ability to make up lost caster levels in gestalt, it's probably getting into the same level of unsporting that it would be for a kobold. Sort of a moot point though, as Amph says ECL 6 is too high.



For a Mercury Dragon, something like Mercury Wyrmling of War 3/LA+2/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5//Unarmed Swordsage 5/Hit-and-Run Fighter 1/Invisible Fist Monk 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Fighter +1/7 levels of dipping/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Crusader +1 would be solid.

Half-Gorristo Psionic Duergar LA +5/War Hulk 10/Stuff 5//Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/PsyWar 2/Crusader 14 or similar could be pretty spiffy as well. Apart from anything else, a Colossal Dwarf is amusing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe go for Fiend of Possession from Fiend Folio, you can use something like a Bladeling (MM2, updated (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a)) which starts as an Outsider [Lawful] at +2 LA and 1 RHD, add on Divine Minion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Sebek which makes Outsider [Lawful] become Outsider [Evil] for another +1 LA, and throw on another +1 LA of anything you want, preferably Dark Creature. Consider picking up Naturalized Denizen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#naturalizedDenizen) from UA so you won't be susceptible to dismissal/banishment. I'd probably gestalt that with Binder and/or Incarnate.

You could go Druid or Wildshape (Mystic) Ranger// Divine Minion + others/ Master of Many Forms, possibly starting out with four or more levels of MoMF if you can use your racial Wild Shape to qualify for it early.

dextercorvia mentioned the Marrulurk from Sandstorm, which is actually a spectacular choice if you're going for that type of character. It has a +1 LA and 3 HD that give full BAB, 2d6 sneak attack, death attack, and many other benefits. For that last point of LA I would get one level of the Half-Fiend template class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a), using this variant (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) and basing it on a Babau (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#babau) to add all its listed skills as class skills for your racial HD, and per the skills entry of the Half-Fiend template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) you get Outsider skill points for your racial HD. So those three racial HD will basically give you everything a Rogue 3 would have and more! For what you gestalt with that, I'd probably take Ardent with liberal use of Substitute Powers (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) or just use Psion (Telepath, Telepathic Communication (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) + Mindsight) and start taking Psychic Assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) at 6th, and plan to get Mind Cripple as your first special ability from that. You could easily remove the death attack and poison use class features from (Psychic) Assassin in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites if you don't want to be evil.

That Half-Fiend variant I linked is useful for just about any type of character, really. A Half-Goristro gets Str +16, Con +12, +7 natural armor, and two slam attacks that hit like two-handed weapons, among other benefits. Throw it on a Water Orc Half-Minotaur for a total +5 LA and your ability score bonuses will be Str +32, Dex -4, Con +20, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2, with +12 natural armor, DR, SR, two slams that get 1.5 Str to damage, a gore attack, skill bonuses, spell-like abilities, a swim speed, etc. Throw on Warblade and start taking War Hulk at 6th level, and you'll have nothing to complain about as long as you get Iron Heart Surge, other than low doorways and narrow corridors.

You can still easily make a primary spellcaster, and just dump that RHD/LA into improving your ability scores and/or survivability. You could go with a Half-Ogre Primordial Giant and still have +3 LA to spend on things like Spellwarped or Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) and Quasilycanthrope (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a).

[gawwy]

pity about being limited to 5la/hd when starting a level 6 game. D:

anyway for fun and flavor why not a half-illithid (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfillithid.shtml) 5/ x1//conjuration wizard 5/alienist 1.

easy prereqs simple build tonnes of flavor. take cloudy conjuration and mindsight (if thats not to op which it probably is).

also consider taking willing deformity and willing deformity madness for fun.

the rest of the build is more alienist. i get the feeling this is partial gestalt and the other side of the gestalt stops at 5? if not take factotum there for ultra skill checks ect.

Also note that half-illithad grants all HD as d8's and +1 NA (wooo) and even more importantly SR equal to 10 + HD (this is awesome).
also + 4 to all mental stats.

what PB are you using?

[Troacctid]

I'd go with either Dark Marrulurk or Half-Celestial Dvati, with Cleric/Ordained Champion on the non-LA side. The Marrulurk would be an evil Ordained Champion going straight Swordsage on the LA side, focused on stealth and sneak attacks; the Half-Celestial twins would be a good Ordained Champion with a 2-level Swordsage dip but primarily Warblade or Crusader on the LA side, focusing more on smiting evil with righteous fiery justice.

[Amphetryon]

pity about being limited to 5la/hd when starting a level 6 game. D:

anyway for fun and flavor why not a half-illithid (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfillithid.shtml) 5/ x1//conjuration wizard 5/alienist 1.

easy prereqs simple build tonnes of flavor. take cloudy conjuration and mindsight (if thats not to op which it probably is).

also consider taking willing deformity and willing deformity madness for fun.

the rest of the build is more alienist. i get the feeling this is partial gestalt and the other side of the gestalt stops at 5? if not take factotum there for ultra skill checks ect.

Also note that half-illithad grants all HD as d8's and +1 NA (wooo) and even more importantly SR equal to 10 + HD (this is awesome).
also + 4 to all mental stats.

what PB are you using?
We 'roll for point buy,' but we're rarely below 32, so I assumed 32 in the 1st post as a baseline.

[gawwy]

@Amphetryon so do you like any of the suggestions?

[Perturbulent]

@Amphetryon so do you like any of the suggestions?
I'm a player in this upcoming campaign, and I know more than a few suggestions have been helpful. My head's been spinning with options, so seeing some solid ideas people have come up with, particularly with races I don't necessarily have the system mastery to put my finger on alone. Don't know I would have found the mercury dragon on my own, and had been potentially interested in playing a dragon, as had another player. Even seeing all the various templates even if I end up rearranging them is a huge help.
I'm thinking I might end up playing a GOD wizard in some sort of alternate form so as to be fairly unassuming, possibly unknown to the party. Never entirely sure until the last though. I think finding a prestige class I'm sweet on might help me firm up my concept.
I know one other member of the party tends to prefer various support roles. Another likes int/dex focused characters and has an unusually strong hate for ever dying. I imagine both of them might need some direction as well.

[Taveena]

I actually did this in a game I'm in! Though, uh, didn't have to, just chose to. Half-Celestial Athas Human! The Celestial was mostly for fluff, the Athas Human for crunch. Really, (Primordial) Feral Half-Minotaur Athas Human Saint is pretty potent for pure crunch. Add LA +0 templates from Dragon Magazine to taste.

[Amphetryon]

@Amphetryon so do you like any of the suggestions?

Biffoniacus_Furiou's suggestions were very thorough, very helpful, and scared the Hades out of me.

[Jeff the Green]

Is your initial build able to enter Mystic Theurge by 6th level, as per the requirements?

Yes. It requires level 2 divine and arcane spells. Archivist gets them at 3, and you pick up Precocious Apprentice to get a 2nd-level Sorcerer spell. There are a few other ways, but that's the best for your particular rules. The build I'd actually play (ab)uses taint to get Eldritch Corruption, which allows Heightening for the low, low cost of 2 Constitution damage to you or an ally, and thus can enter at 3rd.

[sideswipe]

i'm fuzzy on how to do class skills for racial HD, but if you can get an outsider with at least 2RHD and a RHD and level adjust equalling 5 with bluff as a racial class skill (rare i know :smallwink:) you could take one side as RHD+LA 5/urpriest 10/ whatever 5 // wizard 15/abjurant champion 5

this is because in gestalt dual prestige-ing is denied and you cannot take theurge classes.

you get dual 9's, 18BAB (due to the way ur priest and wizard overlap), rebuke undead so DMM (persist), and saves should be pretty good due to the outsider HD giving reflex and fort a bit of a boost.
you get wizard bonus feats, no loss in either caster level, abjurant champion stuff.

the good thing about this theurge is that its not so action heavy as others, the normal problem is "you can only cast 1 spell a turn", with this most of the ur priests slots are taken up by your persisting. so you get casting as a wizard and a couple choice divine spells left on top. at late levels you get swift abjuration to power some more defences (though most are already persisted you get a couple more).

this can be dual caster or gish, it really is a flexible build that way. and can change between the two daily. you get enough feats to fuel it too with a couple spare.

[Amphetryon]

Even yet MOAR information, after further discussions:

No Evil Characters unless everyone is interested in playing Team Evil; no Exalted Good Characters unless everyone is interested in playing Team Exalted Good
The world is illiterate (see thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?393465-Illiteracy-(3-5-only))), so Savage Bards only, and no Illumians or PrCs that depend on the written word.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Phrenic (I love that template) Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale on one side. Cleric into dweomerkeeper on the other side. You will be an absolute melee beast with powerful casting to back it up (and some nice abilities to fill in the gaps of your spell casting).

[Amphetryon]

Phrenic (I love that template) Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale on one side. Cleric into dweomerkeeper on the other side. You will be an absolute melee beast with powerful casting to back it up (and some nice abilities to fill in the gaps of your spell casting).

Note that Dweomerkeeper is explicitly on the disallowed list.

[Amphetryon]

After the roll:

And 37 shall be the number of the point buy, and the number of the point buy shall be 37.

[Jack_Simth]

Depends. How much cheddar would you like?

Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Phaerun) is LA+2, with 1 racial hit die - which goes away when you take a class level. They get casting as a Sorcerer of their HIT DICE (not racial hit dice) as spell-like abilities (no caveats on that - so no XP/GP costs for spells) which explicitly stacks with any actual Sorcerer levels. PrC's that advance casting do so as though you had gained a level in another spellcasting class, and thus also stack.

So something like a Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane)-1//Half-fey (Fiend Folio, LA+2)/Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun, LA+2)/Phrenic(Expanded Psionics Handbook, LA+2) could get quite insane. Cast as a Sorcerer-12 as spell-like abilities, two suites of Charisma-powered spell-like abilities, and something like +10 Charisma, and can pull out any Sor/Wiz spell of 3rd level or lower from the PHB a few times per day.

You'll need one flaw to pull it off so that you can prepare spells via Arcane Preparation (I'm fond of Vulnerable), but you'll seldom be out of options.

[Amphetryon]

Depends. How much cheddar would you like?

Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Phaerun) is LA+2, with 1 racial hit die - which goes away when you take a class level. They get casting as a Sorcerer of their HIT DICE (not racial hit dice) as spell-like abilities (no caveats on that - so no XP/GP costs for spells) which explicitly stacks with any actual Sorcerer levels. PrC's that advance casting do so as though you had gained a level in another spellcasting class, and thus also stack.

So something like a Sorcerer-5/Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane)-1//Half-fey (Fiend Folio, LA+2)/Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun, LA+2)/Phrenic(Expanded Psionics Handbook, LA+2) could get quite insane. Cast as a Sorcerer-12 as spell-like abilities, two suites of Charisma-powered spell-like abilities, and something like +10 Charisma, and can pull out any Sor/Wiz spell of 3rd level or lower from the PHB a few times per day.

You'll need one flaw to pull it off so that you can prepare spells via Arcane Preparation (I'm fond of Vulnerable), but you'll seldom be out of options.

That looks, at first glance, like it's filling 6 levels with LA/RHD, which is not within allowances for this campaign (see post #15); am I misreading it? Also, Flaws were disallowed (see post #3).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Lesser Aasimar (+0), Draconic (+1), Half-Fey (+2), Phrenic (+2), for ability score adjustments of Str +2, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +12. Distribute your 37 points as 16, 14, 14, 10, 8, 17, so you'll have Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 30 with your 4th level point. You'll have tons of spell-like and psi-like abilities, wings, and plenty of immunities. Use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in Races of Destiny p150 to count as a Human for purposes of race, so you'll be a Medium Fey (Augmented Humanoid, Human, Dragonblood, Psionic). As a member of a planetouched race you can take the feat Magic in the Blood in PGtF, so all of your spell-like abilities, including those Psi-Like Abilities (SP), which are normally usable 1/day will be usable 3/day instead. If you can't take that feat, go with a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) instead of a Lesser Aasimar, which can also benefit from the Half-Humans variant.

Go Savage Bard 4/ Dread Witch 1/ Savage Bard 4/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4// LA +5/ Sorcerer 1/ Mindbender 1/ Sorcerer 13. Feats should include Magic in the Blood, Melodic Casting, Fell Frighten Spell, and Imperious Command. You'll be taking a lot of alternate class features for Bard: Inspire Courage Inspire Awe; Bardic Knowledge Bardic Knack; Countersong Spellbreaker Song; Fascinate Healing Hymn; Suggestion Haunting Melody. Also consider the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution levels, and don't forget about free class features (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). If you went with Desert Half-Orc, replace Magic in the Blood with either Dreadful Wrath or Able Learner, and say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it.

You can probably guess what this character does. Check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) for more information on how to be effective at this, or for ideas on improving the build. If you're good aligned you should get Ancestral Relic at 3rd level and make it any kind of staff, preferably an Elvencraft Composite Longbow, to make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4).

[Jack_Simth]

That looks, at first glance, like it's filling 6 levels with LA/RHD, which is not within allowances for this campaign (see post #15); am I misreading it? Also, Flaws were disallowed (see post #3).
Ah, sorry, didn't catch that you didn't have the option of going six levels with it. Easy enough to resolve - replace Half-Fey with Draconic Creature (races of the Dragon, +1 LA). With flaws not permitted, it's a fairly simple matter to replace Mage of the Arcane Order with Ruathar (Races of the Wild), as you'll qualify for it at 5th to take it at 6th. That'd make it...

Sorcerer-6//Hatchling Phaerimm (Lost Empires of Faerun, LA+2)/Draconic Creature (Races of the Dragon, LA+1)/Phrenic (Expanded Psionics Handbook, LA+2)/Ruathar-1 (Races of the Wild)

For later levels, go Mage of the Arcane Order on the Sorcerer side, and splash stuff on the racial side (Monk-2, Hexblade-3 [Complete Warrior], et cetera) that's heavily front-loaded. Note that when you take Monk, you also want to take Ascetic Mage (to turn Wis to AC into Charisma to AC).

[Amphetryon]

I'd go Lesser Aasimar (+0), Draconic (+1), Half-Fey (+2), Phrenic (+2), for ability score adjustments of Str +2, Dex +2, Con +0, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +12. Distribute your 37 points as 16, 14, 14, 10, 8, 17, so you'll have Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, and Cha 30 with your 4th level point. You'll have tons of spell-like and psi-like abilities, wings, and plenty of immunities. Use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in Races of Destiny p150 to count as a Human for purposes of race, so you'll be a Medium Fey (Augmented Humanoid, Human, Dragonblood, Psionic). As a member of a planetouched race you can take the feat Magic in the Blood in PGtF, so all of your spell-like abilities, including those Psi-Like Abilities (SP), which are normally usable 1/day will be usable 3/day instead. If you can't take that feat, go with a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs) instead of a Lesser Aasimar, which can also benefit from the Half-Humans variant.

Go Savage Bard 4/ Dread Witch 1/ Savage Bard 4/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4// LA +5/ Sorcerer 1/ Mindbender 1/ Sorcerer 13. Feats should include Magic in the Blood, Melodic Casting, Fell Frighten Spell, and Imperious Command. You'll be taking a lot of alternate class features for Bard: Inspire Courage Inspire Awe; Bardic Knowledge Bardic Knack; Countersong Spellbreaker Song; Fascinate Healing Hymn; Suggestion Haunting Melody. Also consider the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution levels, and don't forget about free class features (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a). If you went with Desert Half-Orc, replace Magic in the Blood with either Dreadful Wrath or Able Learner, and say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Menacing Demeanor without spending a feat on it.

You can probably guess what this character does. Check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) for more information on how to be effective at this, or for ideas on improving the build. If you're good aligned you should get Ancestral Relic at 3rd level and make it any kind of staff, preferably an Elvencraft Composite Longbow, to make it a custom Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4).

Very detailed, as usual; thanks. Unfortunately, Utyugh Holes and other 'Feat locations' were disallowed as part of the backstory at our most recent group meeting. Otherwise, this looks very solid.

[Tvtyrant]

The question is in the thread title. If you were starting a 3.5 game at 6th level (expecting to reach 12th, maybe 13th), where the DM said it was Gestalt with the restriction that you needed to fill the first 5 levels of half of the Gestalt with LA/RHD, AND have started a Prestige Class by 6th level, what would you build? If it matters, assume 32 points.

By level 6 do you mean you have to have started it on level 6, or is your first level at level 7 okay?

Assuming you meant the latter:

Feral White Dragon Wyrmling//Barbarian 2/Warblade 4
Goes into Frenzied Berserker/Crusader at the next level.

[Zweisteine]

You should be a ghost (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a)! You don't need to take all the ghost levels, but the going to level 3 gets you the ability to avoid being destroyed.

As a ghost, your best option might be some sort of charisma-based caster (because ghosts get concentration and AC from charisma). Sorcerer is feasible, but if you're in a high-power game (which gestalt generally is), it might not be the best choice unless your DM lets you cast as if one level higher (that's a houserule from both of my 3.5 DMs).

Rogue would also be an interesting choice. You could be the ultimate spy. And you could take the shadow creature template to improve that ability.
As for base race... Unless you want to stack templates, I'm not quite sure what's best.

If you play a gnome, you could be a shadowcraft mage, though a ghost whisper gnome isn't ideal because of the charisma penalty. A ghostly shadow craft mage would be pretty cool,
At level 2, I'd recommend telekinesis for the utility.

At level 4, if you take it, I recommend malevolence, because possession is awesome. Though if you're a rogue, draining touch is pretty nice, too.
If you're a ghost, you need the Ghostly Grasp feat to use material gear.

Oh, and there's a ghost handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1118.0).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Note that Dweomerkeeper is explicitly on the disallowed list.

Then go into cleric PrC of choice and rock full BaB on the other side. Anthropomorphic Baleen whale just ends up getting a lot for 3 RHD and no LA.

[Amphetryon]

By level 6 do you mean you have to have started it on level 6, or is your first level at level 7 okay?

Assuming you meant the latter:

Feral White Dragon Wyrmling//Barbarian 2/Warblade 4
Goes into Frenzied Berserker/Crusader at the next level.

The campaign starts at 6th level, at which point folks will need to be in a PrC already; with Survivor, Stoneblessed, and probably a few I'm forgetting, they can theoretically have already finished at least one PrC by 6th.

[Forrestfire]

For sheer potency, I would go with this. Skip out on the ghost savage progression; in gestalt, getting a third ability is worth the levels, and the savage progression only gets two of the good ones.

Race: Human Ghost

Ghost 1//Human Paragon 1 [Able Learner, Human Heritagehuman bonus]
Ghost 2//Cloistered Cleric 1 (Elf Domain, Charm Domain) [Knowledge Devotionswapped domain, Point Blank Shotelf domain]
Ghost 3//Dragonfire Adept 1 (Draconic Knowledge invocation) [Dragontouchedclass bonus feat]
Ghost 4//Warlock 1 (Otherworldly Whispers invocation)
Ghost 5//Human Paragon 2 [Ghostly Graspclass bonus feat]
Master of the Unseen Hand 1//Human Paragon 3 [open slot, pick what you want]
.
And past this:
.
Master of the Unseen Hand 2-5//more Cloistered Cleric, probably, then casting PrCs after you finish MotUH. Chameleon could be really cool as well. Could advance DFA or Warlock too. It's wide open, you're incredibly powerful in combat just from Ghost and the three dips.


The most important part of this build is Human Heritage. You qualify for the feat by virtue of your (human) subtype, and normally it wouldn't really do anything. However, in this case, it does a very, very important thing:

You are treated as a humanoid with the human subtype for the purpose of adjudicating all effects. If you are not a humanoid, your type changes to humanoid and you gain the human subtype. ... you retain any traits common to all creatures of your original type (such as darkvision).

Now, let's look at what this gets you:

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
Because you're Humanoid (incorporeal, human, augmented humanoid, augmented undead), rather than Undead, you are not affected by things that target Undead, like Turn Undead.



And this is what Ghost gets you:


Hit Dice: All current and future Hit Dice become d12s. (this is not tied to your type, but a part of the template, so you keep it and get to be tanky-ish)
Incorporeal subtype (make sure to use the updated version from Tome of Battle and the Monster Manual 3. This version makes Ghostly Grasp much better, since it lets you phase things into incorporeality if you want to, once you've picked them up)
Manifestation
Cha to AC as a deflection bonus
Perfect Flight
Rejuvenation (not that you're likely to die anyway)
Three ghostly special attacks. Personally, I suggest these:
Malevolence - ride around in an ablative meatshield, and if you want, cast Protection from Possession on them after you possess them. Once you do, they'll be able to act freely while you ride along.
Telekinesis - this will be your bread and butter. Lots and lots of attacks from the violent thrust, with every attack in the volley boosted by knowledge devotion. At Master of the Unseen Hand 4, you also add your Cha mod to damage on each hit. Note that the telekinesis CL starts at 12, then increases if you level past 12, and Master of the Unseen Hand stacks with that. Currently, your CL is 13.
Frightful Moan - Save or panic, based on your high stat, in an AoE. Good panic button (heh) to have, and useful for clearing mooks without killing them.



Your levels in classes get you 3rd-level Cleric casting, and two incredibly useful invocations. Draconic Knowledge is +6 untyped to all knowledges and spellcraft, and Otherworldly Whispers is +6 to Arcana, The Planes, and Religion. This, combined with Knowledge Devotion (and Able Learner keeping your ranks up in the skills), means your attack and damage rolls are going to have a great buff. The other neat thing you got from Cleric is the Charm Domain, which 1/day lets you increase your Cha by 4. This means you're getting +2 to all your telekinetic attacks, and +2 to all your ghost save DCs, for a minute, as a free action. It's pretty amazing. Human Paragon also gets you another +2 to Cha, for more in your main stat.

I recommend this stat array:

Strength: 8/- (0 points, no change, has a null value when on the material plane)*
Dexterity: some amount, split with Wis, depending on if you're continuing Cleric.
Constitution: - (0 points)
Intelligence: 15 (8 points) + 1 (ability score increase at 4) = 16 base score
Wisdom: some amount, split with Dex, depending on if you're continuing Cleric.
Charisma: 18 (16 points) + 4 (ghost) + 2 (human paragon) = 24 base score

*if something attacks you on the ethereal, it could be relevant, but honestly, with Telekinesis available, I wouldn't be too worried

Notably, this build is powerful. Maybe not the most powerful, since it's mainly got abilities instead of spells, but it could make short work of many encounters, is very difficult to kill, and easily sequence-breaks dungeons. Were I playing it, I would likely limit the amount of shots in my Violent Thrust volleys, and avoid moving through walls often until the party reaches a point in the story where it doesn't wreck the game. I've played a similar build, and we had issues and retired the character because of the possession making combat kinda boring. In any case, it was still incredibly fun, and with moderation, it's strong, but probably not too strong.

[WeaselGuy]

I'd probably do something like a Dark (1) Shadow-walker (1) Poison Dusk Lizardfolk (1) Warlock on one side, and Rogue/Hit and Run Fighter/Telflemmar Shadowlord on the other. But I like sneaky folks, so yeah...

[Perturbulent]

Actual build I'll be using looks to be 6 levels factotum on one side. 5 la worth of dark pixie on the other. and cavelord 1 at the sixth slot on that side.

[Amphetryon]

Actual build I'll be using looks to be 6 levels factotum on one side. 5 la worth of dark pixie on the other. and cavelord 1 at the sixth slot on that side.

Factotum with the Illiteracy campaign spec could be weird, potentially.

[Perturbulent]

Factotum with the Illiteracy campaign spec could be weird, potentially.

Did I miss something fluff wise that involves books or similar? I kinda had the image of a faintly voyeuristic pixie who learned altogether too many trades, too imperfectly by observing too many people while invisible. Listens to a lot of bard songs. Learns a lot about people. All the same time decidedly staying invisible because he's not satisfied with his lighthearted form. Likes to top in a deep voice, and do extraordinarily (stereotypical) manly things. Maxed ranks in survival and other wilderness-y what have you. Likes to use his kill.
I figured any various learning would just easily be transmitted by song or tale of the epic bard sort if it's the knowledge-shaped things that call question.

[Amphetryon]

Did I miss something fluff wise that involves books or similar? I kinda had the image of a faintly voyeuristic pixie who learned altogether too many trades, too imperfectly by observing too many people while invisible. Listens to a lot of bard songs. Learns a lot about people. All the same time decidedly staying invisible because he's not satisfied with his lighthearted form. Likes to top in a deep voice, and do extraordinarily (stereotypical) manly things. Maxed ranks in survival and other wilderness-y what have you. Likes to use his kill.
I figured any various learning would just easily be transmitted by song or tale of the epic bard sort if it's the knowledge-shaped things that call question.

Mostly it's just musing 'aloud' about the potential fluff interactions between Class-based access to all the Skill-shaped things and Illiteracy.

[Perturbulent]

Mostly it's just musing 'aloud' about the potential fluff interactions between Class-based access to all the Skill-shaped things and Illiteracy.
Aye aye. I began drawing up the figures last night, and have never fallen so in love with factotum until now. :smallsmile:

[WeaselGuy]

Aye aye. I began drawing up the figures last night, and have never fallen so in love with factotum until now. :smallsmile:

On a whim, I rolled up a Factotum/Chameleon the other night. The skills man, he has all of them...