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daggaz
2007-04-02, 05:16 PM
Does it strike anybody else as slightly odd, that an elf with a constitution score of 6 will heal up just as fast as an equal levelled dwarf with a constitution of 18, as per RAW?

Personally, I think that is kinda... well, stinky. Can't we get our con mod in there as well, somehow? Feh. (On a side note, this would actually go a ways to helping fighter types, somewhat, overcome some of their caster dependancy, as they would heal faster than others due to the usual high con score).

prufock
2007-04-02, 05:24 PM
Sounds like a reasonable idea. In fact, I might house-rule that, and see how well it works.

Mike_G
2007-04-02, 05:25 PM
I know Iron Heroes uses the Con mod for healing.

Tokiko Mima
2007-04-02, 05:26 PM
Does it strike anybody else as slightly odd, that an elf with a constitution score of 6 will heal up just as fast as an equal levelled dwarf with a constitution of 18, as per RAW?

Personally, I think that is kinda... well, stinky. Can't we get our con mod in there as well, somehow? Feh. (On a side note, this would actually go a ways to helping fighter types, somewhat, overcome some of their caster dependancy, as they would heal faster than others due to the usual high con score).

There's a 'Stigmata' Feat in BoED that let's you turn CON into HP healed. Maybe create a self only non-Exalted version with fewer prerequisites?

Kultrum
2007-04-02, 05:27 PM
I think there is a variant that says you heal your con mod/ day or something like that

McMouse
2007-04-02, 05:28 PM
I house-rule this in, in less RP-centric games.

It's a simple rule, doesn't really affect anything game-wise (Who cares if, sans healer, you can heal to full after a fight in three days instead of a week? A few fewer random encounters, if applicable, but that's about it).

daggaz
2007-04-02, 05:30 PM
I think there is a variant that says you heal your con mod/ day or something like that


Umm... I hope you mean it ADDS con mod. RAW is you heal your character level in hps per day (double with full rest). So a tenth level fighter will already heal 10 hps.

I think adding the con mod (minimum 1 hp) would be great. In the beginning levels, it would really help out parties as the tank would much faster, and low con chars would really need some help. Later it wouldnt be all that hot (compared to 20 char. lvl.) but it would still make a mark, especially if you had insane con bonuses for some reason.

Umarth
2007-04-02, 05:50 PM
Here's one I'm using in my homebrew low magic no healing campaign.

Exuberant Vitality [General]
You heal naturally heal much faster than normal.
Prerequisite: Fort Save +2
Benefit: In addition to normal healing you heal your fortitude save in hit points every 24 hours spent resting. If you do not rest you gain ½ your fortitude save in hit points.

Starbuck_II
2007-04-02, 06:36 PM
Umm... I hope you mean it ADDS con mod. RAW is you heal your character level in hps per day (double with full rest). So a tenth level fighter will already heal 10 hps.

I think adding the con mod (minimum 1 hp) would be great. In the beginning levels, it would really help out parties as the tank would much faster, and low con chars would really need some help. Later it wouldnt be all that hot (compared to 20 char. lvl.) but it would still make a mark, especially if you had insane con bonuses for some reason.
Tis a feat:called Rapid Metabolism in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH).
Standard healing + 2x con mod. You heal even if you don't rest.
It isn't a psionic feat so anyone cxan take it.

Another reason why Psionics makes everything better. :smallcool:

RobotDruidKitty
2007-04-02, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure it really needs to be a feat. It's not as if healing based on your con score per day is really that much of an advantage.

Kultrum
2007-04-02, 10:41 PM
Umm... I hope you mean it ADDS con mod. RAW is you heal your character level in hps per day (double with full rest). So a tenth level fighter will already heal 10 hps.

I think adding the con mod (minimum 1 hp) would be great. In the beginning levels, it would really help out parties as the tank would much faster, and low con chars would really need some help. Later it wouldnt be all that hot (compared to 20 char. lvl.) but it would still make a mark, especially if you had insane con bonuses for some reason.
ya thats what i meant sorry

TheOOB
2007-04-02, 10:59 PM
It makes sense that a high con would make you heal faster, but considering how pointless natural healing is in the face of healing magic, and how complex the rules for D&D are allready, i don't think a new rule is neccesary.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-02, 11:54 PM
Tis a feat:called Rapid Metabolism in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH).
Standard healing + 2x con mod. You heal even if you don't rest.
It isn't a psionic feat so anyone cxan take it.

Another reason why Psionics makes everything better. :smallcool:

Sounds similar to Fast Healing feat in Complete Warrior. Who needs Psionics?:smalltongue:

Belteshazzar
2007-04-03, 12:23 AM
Would it be too unbalanced to allow healing of con bonus x level per a day?

TheOOB
2007-04-03, 12:31 AM
Would it be too unbalanced to allow healing of con bonus x level per a day?

Unbalanced? It's not unbalanced to heal all your hp in a day, you can't rest during battle so all changing the healing rate does is effect adventure pacing...asumming you don't have a divine spellcaster in which case you can always heal in a day.

Kultrum
2007-04-03, 12:32 AM
Would it be too unbalanced to allow healing of con bonus x level per a day?

depends on the campaign, Ive run some where they fully heal at night because other wise they would die the next day in battle (and before you get on my case for bad DMing they Literally asked for it to be that hard)

daggaz
2007-04-03, 10:36 AM
Well, in a campaign with little healing magic.... Or if you are low level and your cleric is totally tapped out each day for spells.

I play an online chat RPG (deepest-dark.net) and there you aren't always sure there will be a cleric online. Players often get banged up, and they either sit out resting a few days, or fork over 50 gold for a CLW potion (magic items are a bit hard to come by, and the wealth tables overall are reduced as well), or they come and ask my cleric to heal them. Which I usually do, but it is a drag with half the population begging for heals and me wanting to save spells for my own adventures.

Anyhow, I think I will run this idea by the DM's there..

Gamebird
2007-04-03, 11:15 AM
The game I'm in now has eliminated all level-based healing. Instead we have the following:
1. A Heal check, DC 15, heals 1 hp/day if the person gets a full night (or day) of rest in a comfortable place, like a normal bed. Sleeping on the side of the road or in camp doesn't count unless you take most of a day to prepare the camp or have extraordinary camp gear. DC 20 heals 2 hp/day.

2. Normally you heal 1+CON modifier per day+night of rest (partial actions only). If this results in a negative number, then it just takes longer to heal. CON 8 takes 2 days to heal 1 point. CON 6 takes 4 days to heal 1 point. Etc. This stacks with #1.

3. You heal 1+CON modifier x 2 per day+night of full bed rest (no actions tougher than a 5' step, brief periods of talking, eating, and so on). This stacks with #1.

4. There are herbal preparations that heal d4 hp per dose (with a maximum of 4 doses/day), d3 per day (and only works when getting healing per #2 or #3 above), and something else that does a d2. These cost 2 to 5 gold.


It's not that big an issue. It's a very low-powered game and it suits the style of play and encounter design.

Matthew
2007-04-03, 07:29 PM
What exactly is the justification for having Constitution increase the rate at which you heal Hit Points? This doesn't make sense to me. Hit Point recovery is determined by Character Level, not by Hit Point Totals.

Lòkki Gallansbayne
2007-04-03, 07:41 PM
Same reason CON affects your HP in the first place:
Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. I'm no doctor, but it makes a degree of sense to me that a strong, healthy person would be able to recover from injuries marginally faster than a frail, sickly person.

Matthew
2007-04-03, 07:53 PM
Sure, but the description doesn't say Recovery Rate. Hell, Strength has as much right as Constitution to be considered if you want to vary at what rate Hit Points are recovered. It's not like Hit Points even make that much sense to begin with, they certainly aren't a literal translation of 'Health' or 'Stamina.'

Clementx
2007-04-03, 08:00 PM
It's not like Hit Points even make that much sense to begin with, they certainly aren't a literal translation of 'Health' or 'Stamina.'
Except, you know, they are.

Personally, I would think your hit die size should be just as important as the number of them under the current system. That doesn't address the complete lack of Con-based recovery, but if you are going through the effort of teaching your players a new healing method, you might as well fix it completely.

Even better, you could just make natural healing a percentage of your max HP, which would take into account your number of HD, their size, and your Con. It would also make the puny wizard heal an equal proportion (and much smaller absolute) to the barbarian. Like, 25% for 8-hours rest, 50% for 24-hours.

Matthew
2007-04-03, 08:05 PM
No, they're not.



Injury and Death
Your hit points measure how hard you are to kill. No matter how many hit points you lose, your character isn’t hindered in any way until your hit points drop to 0 or lower.


Your PHB has more information on the subject, but 'vague' is the watchword when dealing with the definition of Hit Points.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-03, 09:58 PM
depends on the campaign, Ive run some where they fully heal at night because other wise they would die the next day in battle (and before you get on my case for bad DMing they Literally asked for it to be that hard)
haha, we did. but i think that 1/2 con mod X character level is a good heal rate for a full nights rest

Wehrkind
2007-04-03, 11:15 PM
I think 2nd Edition had it work like that, each point of Con gave a different healing rate. Once you got it up to like 25 points you healed as fast as a troll. Granted, that was a slightly different system, but might make a good guide.

And Matthew, I don't really see your point about why Con shouldn't be tied to healing, and Strength is just as good. You don't get more HP by having greater Str, indeed they are completely unrelated mechanics wise. You do get more HP from Con, as well as ability to handle poisons and disease etc. Even real world the connection between strength and health is incidental. You do generally see people that are healthy in the sense they rarely get sick and the like recover faster from cuts and other injury, as their body staves off infection and puts itself back together faster.

I don't disagree that HP are very abstract and kind of silly, but assuming that having a better constitution begets more hp, it follows that if hp can be recovered, more constitution should aid said recovery.

Matthew
2007-04-04, 01:44 PM
(A)D&D 2.x worked like this:



Natural Healing
Characters heal naturally at a rate of 1 hit point per day of rest. Rest is defined as low activity--nothing more strenuous than riding a horse or traveling from one place to another. Fighting, running in fear, lifting a heavy boulder, or any other physical activity prevents resting, since it strains old wounds and may even reopen them.
If a character has complete bed rest (doing nothing for an entire day), he can regain 3 hit points for the day. For each complete week of bed rest, the character can add any Constitution hit point bonus he might have to the base of 21 points (3 points per day) he regained during that week.
In both cases above, the character is assumed to be getting adequate food, water, and sleep. If these are lacking, the character does not regain any hit points that day.


The reason I am arguing the Constitution shouldn't be tied to Natural Healing is because Natural Healing Rate is not tied to Hit Points, but to Character Levels in 3.x. If there were different rates of Healing for different Hit Dice, I could see Constitution Bonuses factoring in, but that's not how it works.

Maybe there isn't as good a case for Strength as Constitution contributing to Healing Rates. I was just thinking in terms of Strong = Healthy, but I suppose it isn't really supported by D&D.

All the same, Natural Healing isn't determined by Hit Point Totals in D&D, but by Character Levels. Stupid maybe, but it's not consistant to add Constitution Bonuses to Character Levels to determine this.

Gamebird
2007-04-04, 01:50 PM
All the same, Natural Healing isn't determined by Hit Point Totals in D&D, but by Character Levels. Stupid maybe, but it's not consistant to add Constitution Bonuses to Character Levels to determine this.

To me, the obvious answer (if you don't like the current system and want a more "health-related" one) is to ditch level-based healing and use CON modifiers only. Like what our group is doing.

It leads to slower healing, but maybe that's reasonable.

Matthew
2007-04-04, 01:57 PM
The way I run it in my Homebrewed and Houseruled (A)D&D game, healing is completely different, but I don't generally change anything about D&D 3.x when we play (otherwise I might as well be playing my (A)D&D game).

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 01:58 PM
Hmmm... wouldn't natural healing suggest that the HP you get at each level isn't being able to withstand more, but being able to deflect most of the damage away? Since it takes the same amount of time to get up to maximum HP(for the same values of constitution and hit dice) no matter what level you have...

Matthew
2007-04-04, 02:01 PM
Yes, but other aspects of Hit Points contradict this view. As I said, 'vague' is the watchword (and maybe inconsistancy).

Desaril
2007-04-04, 10:48 PM
@ Matthew- I think most of us like many things about the system (most importantly it's the most readily available, like Microsoft) and we just want to make minor changes to reflect what we think would make it better. There are some things I absolutely love about 3.0 (a unified consistent ability system) and things I absolutely hate (the oppressively discouraging unarmed combat), but I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water.

If you look back at the initial question, it makes a certain sense that CON (which is largely connected with health, stamina, durability, toughness, etc) would have some impact on how much damage you can withstand before dying and therefore how rapidly you recover from that. I don't know why the designers didn't include CON into the rapid healing formula, but I do think it's informative that a lot of the responses have been favorable to that change.

It may not be the rule, but perhaps it should be...

Matthew
2007-04-04, 11:24 PM
I understand the idea, I just don't agree with it because it isn't consistant. If Character's recovered percentages of Hit Points and Hit Points were directly representative of health and stamina, then it would make sense to use Constitution in some way.
If you are going to change Natural Healing, it doesn't make sense to tack something on the end, as you won't solve the problem (i.e. the oddness). All you would be doing is increasing (or decreasing) Healing Rates based on Constitution.
It isn't odd that Constitution doesn't affect Natural Healing, when the Natural Healing Rate is determined by Character Level.

Desaril
2007-04-05, 11:06 PM
It's only inconsistent with the current rule, which is inconsistent with most players conception of the relationship between HP and CON. D20 may explicitly say that HP is not related to CON, but that doesn't jive with what we expect. Rulemeisters will stick to the rules regardless, but I think the rules should reflect the pseudo-reality of the game setting and enhance the game experience. When the rules don't do this, the game loses some of its versimilitude. It becomes a complex strategy game because the rules merely exist to adjudicate the game without tying it to the context.

Matthew
2007-04-07, 09:46 PM
Sure, but that's why I am saying don't just tack something on. If you want to make Natural Healing work differently, then reform the rule, don't just patch it up.

daggaz
2007-04-08, 09:28 AM
ummm.....this would be reforming the rule. Right now, in its present form, it doesn't include Con. When we are done reforming it, it will.

All symantics aside, con should have something to do with healing, as it has everything to do with your characters health. You can argue all day till you are blue in the face about the vagueries of the hitpoint system (of which there are many), but you will still be missing the main point, which the majority of posters so far on this thread seem to agree with. Con = Health. And no matter how wierd hitpoints are when you try to couple them with real-life, you still won't escape the fact that Con is instrumental in every character's acquirement of them.

Now, if you want to revamp the entire hitpoint system cuz you think it isn't realistic enough, by all means feel free, (and I'm pretty sure your arguments here are just the tip of that iceberg, which you are trying to get at), but then there are other threads which deal with that issue. Tho feel free to hijack this one as well, if you want.

My whole point was, accepting the current HP system, I thought it was very strange that they left Con out for the natural healing part, when it is included in pretty much every other aspect.

Matthew
2007-04-08, 10:02 AM
Sure, but what you are doing is tacking a Constitution Adjustment onto something that is currently dictated by Character Level (rightly or wrongly). All this rule does is make Natural Healing faster for Characters with a high Constitution, but without penalising those with low Constitution. This seems to be just a straight up case of Power Creep with pretensions towards fluff.

Personally, I have no problem with the current Hit Point system and Natural Healing in D&D 3.x.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-08, 10:07 AM
The problem with Constitution not affecting rest hp is that a higher con character takes longer to rest back to full health than one with lower hp. A 20 Wizard with con 10 can get his health back from 0 in a couple of days while a 20 Barbarian with 20 con can take close to a month to get back up from 0.

Matthew
2007-04-08, 10:10 AM
Sure, but that's already the case. A Barbarian 1 has 12 Hit Points, a Wizard 1 has 4 Hit Points. They both get knocked unconscious at 0 Hit Points, but it takes only one third of the time for the Wizard to heal than the Barbarian. Now a Wizard 1 with Con +1 takes even less proportional time than a Barbarian with Con +1.

JellyPooga
2007-04-08, 10:15 AM
Ah, but very few Wizards should have a high Con, whereas most Barbarians should have high Con.

So, Mr Wizard 1 (with 4 HP and Con 10) heals in 4 days. (1 HP/day)
Mr Barbarian 1 (with 15 HP and Con 16) heals in just under 4 days. (4 HP/day)

Sounds about right to me...

At lvl. 2, Mr Wizard goes up to 6 HP and now heals in 3 days and Mr Barbarian goes up to 24 HP and heals in just under 5 days...oh, maybe it doesn't help that much. Oh Well. If its lvl x Con mod though...mr barbarian heals in 4 days still...hmm bears thinking.

Matthew
2007-04-08, 10:26 AM
That's really a matter of how quickly you want Character X to heal up to full Hit Points through Natural Healing. One option is proportional healing, i.e 1 in every X Hit Points is healed per day of rest (or whatever). If you want to make it so that Characters with high and low Constitution Scores have different Natural Healing Rates, then that's also possible, though it is likely another layer of charts...

There's no accounting for how Players will assign Attribute Scores. Many have Wizards with high Constitution because of the Concentration Skill.

JellyPooga
2007-04-08, 10:30 AM
I would like to see a viable system that incorporates Con into Natural Healing, though (as Matthew says) it would likely involve a table or series of tables to get it right

Kultrum
2007-04-08, 10:43 AM
this will explain everything you need to know about hit points... also i need those sheets for my players (http://legendary.comicgenesis.com/d/20061201.html)

daggaz
2007-04-10, 09:38 AM
Sure, but what you are doing is tacking a Constitution Adjustment onto something that is currently dictated by Character Level (rightly or wrongly). All this rule does is make Natural Healing faster for Characters with a high Constitution, but without penalising those with low Constitution. This seems to be just a straight up case of Power Creep with pretensions towards fluff.

Personally, I have no problem with the current Hit Point system and Natural Healing in D&D 3.x.

Actually, the way I posted it in the beginning, low con characters would be penalized, as they would heal slower. I posted a minimum of 1 per day (as there are so many such lower caps ie skillpoints already in the game), but you could just as well make negative modifiers require longer time periods... so a total con mod of -1 would mean 2 days to heal 1 hp, etc etc..

Black Hand
2007-04-10, 10:42 AM
I always found that rule somewhat odd either, and I generally implament something similar to 2E where you heal:

0 hp for hard exertion
1hp+conbonus/day if you're walking or taking it easy
3+conb/day for complete rest
3+double con for someone helping with the healing skill with complete rest.

Each to their own though. I'm actually trying the Official 3.5 healing right now just to see what it's like although I do still find it odd that yes. An elf with a 3 con, and the Dorf with a 20 con, still recover equally.

Matthew
2007-04-10, 04:34 PM
Actually, the way I posted it in the beginning, low con characters would be penalized, as they would heal slower. I posted a minimum of 1 per day (as there are so many such lower caps ie skillpoints already in the game), but you could just as well make negative modifiers require longer time periods... so a total con mod of -1 would mean 2 days to heal 1 hp, etc etc..
Indeed you did. My mistake.