Making a Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)

[Osiris]

So, my cleric character died. Everybody would've mourned his loss, but the character was insane (long story). Anyway, I need to come up with a new character.
My eyes settled on the Oath of Vengeance Paladin. I plan to fluff him like Batman. That isn't too important. What is is how to improve him.

The rest of the party is third level, so my paladin will be too.
Stats are Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 16.
Does that seem right? The character is wearing Chain Mail.

The character's race is Variant Human. This way, he can snag Pole-arm Master at level one, and use his Glaive to defend the rest of the party.
At fourth level, he'll either increase Strength or get the Sentinel feat.

Finally, his spells (besides the Oath ones: bane and hunter's mark) are Command, Cure Wounds, Shield of Faith, and Thunderous Smite.

Does this seem fine, or does the Playground have any suggestions that could make the character a better defender / tank?

[Balor777]

Heavy armor mastery in a nice feat and will mitigate a lot of damage.
You party has other healing available?

[Osiris]

Heavy armor mastery in a nice feat and will mitigate a lot of damage.
You party has other healing available?

I considered Heavy Armor Mastery, but I figured it would not be very good in the long run, so I chose Pole-arm master. Is there a retraining rule in the DMG that I missed?

Also, there is no other healer. My cleric was the healer, my Paladin will be the healer. Thus, cure wounds. Good question, though.

[ZenBear]

I'll quote myself from another recent thread:


Paladin 20

My next Paladin will be thus:

VHuman Oath of Vengeance

STR16 CON16 DEX10 INT8 WIS10 CHA14

Take Resilient:CON at 1st, Polearm Master at 4th, STR to 20 and then either CON to 20 for super tank and concentration checks, or Sentinel at 8th and the last stat/feat TBD. The only reason Sentinel isn't a hard lock is because the wording about creatures within 5 feet might screw you with a reach weapon, enemies might be able to walk away with a Disengage. Depends on the DM's interpretation.

Hunter's Mark will be a bread-and-butter damage buff early game and Divine Smite mid-late with 3 attacks per turn plus plenty of opportunity attacks and with Polearm Master/Sentinel they wont even be able to get within 5 feet.

Perhaps a dip into Fighter or some other class could be useful after Divine Smite (what is that, lvl 11? Doesn't it improve again after that? I don't have the book in front of me). The capstone power is too cool though, and Paladins have few enough spell slots as it is.

Starting out with Resilient:CON gives you an extra stat point to allow for 2 16's at lvl 1 with only 1 8, and I feel it's very necessary for frontline casters like Clerics and Paladins who want to use buff spells. If all you intend to use is Smite and Cure, then don't bother, but you're gonna want a single cast of Hunter's Mark to last an entire encounter or more and without a shield you're almost certain to take hits. Concentration checks will screw you without proficiency or at least War Caster.

Also, don't bother with Heavy Armor Master. It's OP in the first 5-10 levels but falls off lategame. If your DM lets you retrain feats then go ahead and do it now, then swap it out at 8 or 12.

[Osiris]

I'll quote myself from another recent thread:



Starting out with Resilient:CON gives you an extra stat point to allow for 2 16's at lvl 1 with only 1 8, and I feel it's very necessary for frontline casters like Clerics and Paladins who want to use buff spells. If all you intend to use is Smite and Cure, then don't bother, but you're gonna want a single cast of Hunter's Mark to last an entire encounter or more and without a shield you're almost certain to take hits. Concentration checks will screw you without proficiency or at least War Caster.

Also, don't bother with Heavy Armor Master. It's OP in the first 5-10 levels but falls off lategame. If your DM lets you retrain feats then go ahead and do it now, then swap it out at 8 or 12.

Thanks for your opinions. I think that War Caster is also important, what with the somatic components while wielding my glaive. Which would you pick? I could have a con of 16 if I took resilient, but I'd also miss out on the War Caster benefits and I'd have a dex of 8 instead of 10. Dex saves are pretty common, after all.

Also, no, retraining is off the table.

Any new ideas, based on this?

[ZenBear]

Thanks for your opinions. I think that War Caster is also important, what with the somatic components while wielding my glaive. Which would you pick? I could have a con of 16 if I took resilient, but I'd also miss out on the War Caster benefits and I'd have a dex of 8 instead of 10. Dex saves are pretty common, after all.

Also, no, retraining is off the table.

Any new ideas, based on this?
I personally prefer Resilient over War Caster most days since CON saves are common and often lethal. It depends on what spells you intend to cast regularly. Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, Cure Wounds and Smites are pretty much all I need, so I'm not even bothering with a high CHA, and any spells I need Somatic components for take a full Action to use anyway so no need for WC. I would say you should drop INT to 8 instead of DEX. INT saves are super rare and other classes can handle knowledge checks.

[LucianoAr]

well it depends on how you want to play it and the party composition, i was both the healer and the main damage dealer of the party.

in reality, paladin spells are pretty lame in comparison with the ridiculous amount of damage you can do while smiting, so i used to burn 80% of my spells into smite (why bother with command when you can just fuel massive damage with that energy?).

The other 20% were bless at the beggining of battle (+1d4 for 3 teammates for 10 rounds is totally better than a single thunderous smite imho) the occasional heal (whatever is not covered by the AMAZING lay on hands) and utility spells like lesser restoration.

i dont think i ever used a spell that used my charisma mod or save. i rolled it just like you but if i had to again, id do str 16 con 16 cha 14. (also better for concentration rolls, but really, i dont think its worth going war caster with the very few concentration things you got)

as for feats, by level 6 heavy armor master was already irrelevant, id say you either get the sentinel combo or go str.

[Osiris]

Okay. It looks like I should drop Command and pick up Bless.
As for stats, take Resilient (con) at first level, winding up with:
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14. That works out fine, and I get Con saves too.

Now for my feat at fourth level. I'll probably pick up Strength at 8th level or so, leaving a feat at fourth.

I like both Sentinel and Pole-Arm Master. I believe that taking PM first is a good idea. Thoughts?

[Balor777]

I considered Heavy Armor Mastery, but I figured it would not be very good in the long run, so I chose Pole-arm master. Is there a retraining rule in the DMG that I missed?

Also, there is no other healer. My cleric was the healer, my Paladin will be the healer. Thus, cure wounds. Good question, though.

Note that IF your dm make you face enemies with magic weapon will actualy let you have them as a loot too.
It will fade away but realy late.I would say around lvl 13+.Many monsters dont use magic "weapons" and you will face them even at higer levels.
Also the more attacks you take the more this feat works.If you take 10 hits per day to mitigate, thats like having 30 max hp more.
Also at fights were you face more weaker enemies this feat shines.
I believe you should dip at least 1 level life domain of cleric to make these little heals youll have better.

[Osiris]

Note that IF your dm make you face enemies with magic weapon will actualy let you have them as a loot too.
It will fade away but realy late.I would say around lvl 13+.Many monsters dont use magic "weapons" and you will face them even at higer levels.
Also the more attacks you take the more this feat works.If you take 10 hits per day to mitigate, thats like having 30 max hp more.
Also at fights were you face more weaker enemies this feat shines.
I believe you should dip at least 1 level life domain of cleric to make these little heals youll have better.

Looking over Life Cleric, I'd gain a minor healing ability in exchange for the capstone for Vengeance Paladin, which I kind of like.
I don't think I'll dip at all. If I did, it might be into Fighter, but I probably won't multi-class at all.

I think that Resilient in Constitution might be more beneficial than the damage reduction, because it rounds my Constitution off at a nice 16.
While that may not be a good reason, retraining is not allowed, so in the end, it's a feat wasted. Good points though. If there was retraining, I'd take it.

[Felvion]

Okay. It looks like I should drop Command and pick up Bless.
As for stats, take Resilient (con) at first level, winding up with:
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14. That works out fine, and I get Con saves too.?

You seem to have miscalculated your stats a bit. Assuming it's 27 point-buy, there are 2 points left. Personally, I'd use them in int because playing the dumb has never really been my thing.

[ZenBear]

Okay. It looks like I should drop Command and pick up Bless.
As for stats, take Resilient (con) at first level, winding up with:
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14. That works out fine, and I get Con saves too.

Now for my feat at fourth level. I'll probably pick up Strength at 8th level or so, leaving a feat at fourth.

I like both Sentinel and Pole-Arm Master. I believe that taking PM first is a good idea. Thoughts?
Polearm Master first. The bonus action attack each round proc'ing Hunter's Mark is really nice, as well as OAs on approach. Again, clear with your DM how they interpret AOs with Sentinel using a reach weapon. Don't wanna get screwed over, but might be worth while in any case. Your call.

And yes, you miscalculated your scores. You only have one 8, so bump INT or WIS. INT is largely useless, but you do have proficiency in WIS saves so a -1 won't hurt much.

[Osiris]

You seem to have miscalculated your stats a bit. Assuming it's 27 point-buy, there are 2 points left. Personally, I'd use them in int because playing the dumb has never really been my thing.

Wait, really? Whoops. Let me check.
Current points: 27 18 9
Point Deduction: -9 -9 -5
New points: 18 9 4
Stats: 15 str 15 con 13 cha


Oh. I see now. I forgot about Variant Humans' +1 to the other stat. You're right. I only have to be slightly less wise than average. Yay!

Thanks for pointing that out :smallredface:

[odigity]

Okay. It looks like I should drop Command and pick up Bless.

You do know you can pick different spells every day, right?


I like both Sentinel and Pole-Arm Master. I believe that taking PM first is a good idea. Thoughts?

I'm playing an Oath of Ancients Polearm Master/Sentinel Paladin right now. Grabbed PM first, and OMG does it rock. (One feat gives you bonus action attack AND a better reaction attack.) I just got to 4th and picked up Sentinel.

It sucks only have an AC 17 (while the shield fighter has a 19), and it sucks not getting to bump my Str like the fighter, but I am loving the combat mechanic. It's worth trying at least once, so if you're going to do it, do it right from the beginning and have both by 4th.

[Angelalex242]

I'm doing the AC 21 (plate/shield) Heavy Armor Master/Sentinel/Mage Slayer/Shield Master with Oath of Ancients.

The ultimate in damage sponginess, this guy is designed to not take damage from anything...not magic, not weapons, nothing.

[Osiris]

You do know you can pick different spells every day, right?



I'm playing an Oath of Ancients Polearm Master/Sentinel Paladin right now. Grabbed PM first, and OMG does it rock. (One feat gives you bonus action attack AND a better reaction attack.) I just got to 4th and picked up Sentinel.

It sucks only have an AC 17 (while the shield fighter has a 19), and it sucks not getting to bump my Str like the fighter, but I am loving the combat mechanic. It's worth trying at least once, so if you're going to do it, do it right from the beginning and have both by 4th.

You mention AC of 17. . . With chain mail, you have 16. I assume you've taken the Defense fighting style of +1 AC then.
How does the playground feel about the Great Weapon Fighting style? Re-rolling your first 1's and 2's on ALL DICE is great for the Pole-arm Master D4 and all of your Smite dice, so I chose that. What do you think?

[odigity]

You mention AC of 17. . . With chain mail, you have 16. I assume you've taken the Defense fighting style of +1 AC then.
How does the playground feel about the Great Weapon Fighting style? Re-rolling your first 1's and 2's on ALL DICE is great for the Pole-arm Master D4 and all of your Smite dice, so I chose that. What do you think?

Nope -- upgraded to Splint about half-way to level 4.

[Rilak]

Thanks for your opinions. I think that War Caster is also important, what with the somatic components while wielding my glaive. Which would you pick? I could have a con of 16 if I took resilient, but I'd also miss out on the War Caster benefits and I'd have a dex of 8 instead of 10. Dex saves are pretty common, after all.

Also, no, retraining is off the table.

Any new ideas, based on this?

Switch glaive to one hand, cast spell, switch back. Easy as pie. Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle, and Circle of Power are V only anyway.

Resilient gives you a better benefit w.r.t. concentration. And you can reduce CON by 1, increasing DEX by 2 instead if you are really concerned. (Or increase CHA since it adds to all your saves)

[Slipperychicken]

I'm doing the AC 21 (plate/shield) Heavy Armor Master/Sentinel/Mage Slayer/Shield Master with Oath of Ancients.

The ultimate in damage sponginess, this guy is designed to not take damage from anything...not magic, not weapons, nothing.

Race: Hill Dwarf (+1 hp/level, +2 Con)
Class: Barbarian(Bear Totem)
Ability Scores: Dex and Con (for AC)
Feats/ASI: Toughness (+2 hp/level), Con, Tavern Brawler?
Equipment: Shield

Armor Class: Con (3) + Dex (1) +2 = Roughly 16 before ASIs.
Hit Points: d12 + 3 (con) +3 = about 12 per level before ASIs.
Resistances: All damage except psychic while raging, otherwise resistant to poison damage
Saves: Proficient in Str & Con
Advantage on saves: Almost all Dex (which he can see, like spells), Strength while raging, Poison


This guy would have a huge amount of hp, decent AC (ASIs and stat allocation can get it up to 22), resistance to everything except psychic, plus advantage on saves to resist most damaging effects.

[Osiris]

Switch glaive to one hand, cast spell, switch back. Easy as pie. Aura of Vitality, Crusader's Mantle, and Circle of Power are V only anyway.

Resilient gives you a better benefit w.r.t. concentration. And you can reduce CON by 1, increasing DEX by 2 instead if you are really concerned. (Or increase CHA since it adds to all your saves)

Hmmm. . . Good points. I prefer to have a 16 con and constitution save proficiency at level one, though. Current feat choice so far looks like the following:
Resilient(Con), Polearm Master, +2 strength, Sentinel, +2 charisma, +2 strength.

At 20th level, he'll have 20 strength, 18 charisma, and 16 constitution. I'm okay with that.


Scrolling up, I see that Ogidity mentioned that you can prep spells differently every day. I assume that you can pick any spell off the list, and you cast like a sorcerer? Good to know.
I would prepare cure wounds and two of the following: Shield of Faith, Bless, and/or thunderous smite.
That looks good.

Thanks, all. Don't hesitate to add anything else if it comes to you.

[Alex333]

The only reason Sentinel isn't a hard lock is because the wording about creatures within 5 feet might screw you with a reach weapon

Sup y'all, this is quite an old thread but I just started a new campaign of D&D with friends. I'll be playing an Oath of Vengeance Paladin and I wanted to give some extra info just in case someone get on this thread just like I did. First, thanks to you guys, especially ZenBear for your tips on the way you guys would spend your ASI vs Feats at level x. It's been really helpfull and this forum looks great!

Anyway, only wanted to say that there's an errata about the sentinel feat mentioned in ZenBear's affirmation above. The errata say's: ''ignore ''within 5 feet of you'' for the sentinel second dot''.

Then, sentinel second benefit become: (Creatures within melee reach of you provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.)


So this build only get better, win-win! :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

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