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LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 06:56 PM
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/191/4/0/forge_by_candra-d6v26mq.jpg
This guy made all this stuff with no ranks in Craft.

If you want to optimize, you probably don't want to be spending any ranks in Craft. Not just because it's not a very good skill, but because you can often do the task without investing in the skill at all.

The main practical purpose of Craft skills is to be able to get mundane items more cheaply whenever you have the spare time (1/3rd of the price), such as the Mithral Full Plate you wanted. Or for flavor. Or maybe because you want to Fabricate something very specific. Or maybe you want to make money during downtime. But usually it's the first one.

So, you are a hardworking artisan who spent his hard earned skill points in Craft (Armorsmithing) and you walk out in the street one day and you realize... all the Wizards you know are all bloody master craftsmen that can make all the masterwork full plate you can. They also can craft masterwork weapons, weave masterwork baskets... you name it, they can probably craft it. Every single one of them. What happened?

Well, those guys have like 16 Int. That totally gives them a +3 craft bonus. Then they can take something like the Magecraft spell (Eberron Campaign Setting) for the cost of a cheap scroll and some magic ink for scribing. Then they grab some artisan's tools for 50gp, and go work in a workshop just like you do. They also have a Familiar that can aid another. We're already looking at a result of 22-24 when they take 10 on a Craft check, which is enough to produce almost every masterwork item in the game. The key bit is that it doesn't matter what kind of Craft check it is. Their bonuses apply to crafting everything, whereas the poor shmoe who actually took ranks in Craft only applies them to a specific kind of item.

It's not just Wizards that can do this. It's pretty much everyone, at some point or another. Wizards just have the easiest time doing it right off the bat at level 1 without even trying.

Artisan's Tools are cheap and give you +2 to all Craft checks (And in general, a core Masterwork Tool can give you a +2 to any of your skill checks! Use them!). Working in a workshop gives you a +2 to the appropriate Craft check that stacks with that. Tons of spells and abilities boost skill checks (though Magecraft is the cheapest and most accessible for anyone), and you can get a Drow House Insignia of that and hand it to anyone. As you go up in levels, it becomes increasingly effortless. Every Cleric learns Divine Insight (Spell Compendium). Bards start inspiring competence or using Focusing Chants or whatever. You can grab an Eternal Wand (Magic Item Compendium) or Drow House Insignia (Drow of the Underdark) of Magecraft, and even the Fighter can use that insignia. All in all, past the lowest levels nobody is going to really have to worry about being able to grab a +10 to Craft and take ten to throw together mundane items during downtime.

Mind, all of this only matters if you have tons of downtime. Crafting is slow. Really slow. Do you know how much time it takes to craft Mithral Full Plate with a whopping +30 to Craft (Armorsmithing)? About 100 days. That means that you might actually be able to take the length of the entire campaign crafting and still never finish a single piece (as if this skill wasn't enough of a trap already). Some DMs let you get around this though, because they'll allow pre-game Crafting (e.g. while you're creating your character) or shorten crafting times so that Artificers get to have their fun, in which case odds are someone in your party will be able to get cheaper mundane gear without any skill point investments, and this can add up to saving quite a lot of money (Such as cutting 7100gp off that vanilla Mithral Full Plate).

All that actual ranks in the trap skill that is Craft do is to allow you to craft things a bit faster (still really slow, as shown above with the +30 skill check example), and make a bit more money (read: practically nothing for an adventurer's income relative to the time spent). As long as you have the time (such as if your DM will allow you to craft stuff at character creation, or you have a timeskip) and the ability to hit 20 when taking 10, you can use Craft to reduce the price of (almost) all of your mundane items by 1/3rd. Costly spell components, special-materials armor, whatever. This can often give you a lot of extra money to throw around at character creation. Note that this is something that you could not do simply by investing ranks in Craft... you could spend all of a Rogue's skill points on it and still not have enough to reduce nearly all of your mundane item costs by 1/3rd.

The main exception to this is Craft (Poisonmaking) (and sometimes Craft (Alchemy)). Poisonmaking is a real skill that can actually be worth it. Heck, its status as a Real Craftsman's Skill is emphasized by the fact that it even adds insult to injury by rendering obsolete all other Craft skills for money-making, because according to Complete Adventurer Poisonmaking calculates profits in GP rather than SP and allows you to pay only 1/6th of the cost of the materials if they are readily available, making the profits far better (and you can actually complete your poisons in fairly reasonable periods of time). You also actually care about raising your ranks in Craft (Poisonmaking) since you might want to reach actually difficult DCs like "35." Then you can Fabricate some Black Lotus Extract, bottle it up in alchemical weapon chambers from Complete Adventurer, and go nuts. Just make sure you grabbed Poison Use (or immunity to poison or some other such thing).

Examples of getting a 20 in Craft when taking 10 with different classes:

Cleric: If you're willing to wait until level 3, you'll grab Divine Insight. That plus Artisan's Tools and a 10 intelligence will already get you a 20 on your Craft checks. At level 1, you have things like Guidance (core cantrip) and Ray of Hope (Book of Exalted Deeds), which can help yourself or an ally hit that 20.

Wizard: Easiest of the lot. Learn Magecraft, have a Wizardly intelligence score, score some Artisan's Tools. Even if you don't have access to Magecraft it's very easy; there are plenty of buff spells that will nudge you or an ally over that threshold, including options as simple and obvious as "Fox's Cunning," and you get a familiar to help you out. If you can't do it at level 1, you'll probably be able to do it soon.

Bard: There’s a good chance you want to switch out Bardic Knowledge for something like Bardic Knack (PHB II) or Lore Song (Dungeonscape). You’re also an arcane caster and have UMD. You also might be taking handy spells like Improvisation which boost skill checks and other things. You might even have invested for the +2 bonus in intelligence because you wanted to qualify for Words of Creation. Between Loresong, a +2 int bonus, a masterwork tool, and an aid-another buddy, you’ve already hit the DC20 spot at level 1 without going out of your way. As always, there’s also the option of waiting a bit, and then Magecraft, Improvisation bonuses, Bardic Knack bonuses, and so forth will come on the radar.

At third level or higher you can also use your Inspire Competence song to boost a buddy’s craft check (which you probably didn’t give up for some other feature, because you wanted to qualify for the Song of the Heart feat).

Anyone with about 1000g: Drow House Insignia (Magecraft), Artisan's Tools, Workshop, ask a teammate to use a low level buff on you or Aid Another. If you have UMD or spellcasting ability Eternal Wands work just as well as Drow House Insignias.

____________

Poisonmaking: The Exception

I've joked in the past that Poisonmaking is such a sly, roguish little bugger that he's not a Craft skill at all, but merely masquerading as one to get past customs. Poisonmaking doesn't follow the normal rules for Craft, and is actually worth putting a few skill points into from time to time. Exhaustive lists of poisons can be found in other guides (here's one: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0). Rather than go over all that again, I'll just point you to the interesting bits to get you started for brevity's sake.

- Poisonmaking has different rules than other Craft skills, noted in the skills section of Complete Adventurer and in the DMG (in the section where it lists all the poisons). Poisons can be crafted for 1/6th of the materials cost if the materials are readily available (unlike the usual 1/3rd for crafting), and you use GP instead of SP when determining how fast you can craft your poisons (resulting in much more reasonable craft times.) The two of these things combined also mean that poisonmaking is considerably more profitable than any other Craft skill. If you are making products and selling them at 1/2 market price, with Poisonmaking you are making a ~200% profit instead of ~50% on every sale... and turning out products 10x faster besides, which means you're making 40x as much money as any other Craft skill. In Complete Scoundrel there's a poison called Salvo which can be made with a low DC and is made out of random scraps that are pretty much always considered to be "readily available." Churn that out and you get money.

- Minor Creation is super handy for making poison to use in your adventures... and there's a really cheap way to get it, too, which I think the guide I linked does not cover. Thanks to the Magic Item Compendium errata about magic items and psionic transparency, you can make a Drow House Insignia with Psionic Minor Creation on it for 620g. Simply make the Craft check and you'll have all the poison you'll want for the next hour, regardless of class. Note that you can only make plant-based poisons while using Minor Creation, but that list includes goodies like Black Lotus Extract (DC35), Cave Terror (DC21), Sassone Leaf Residue (DC16) and Drow Knockout Poison (DC13). The Arsenic and Old Lace guide I linked has a comprehensive list of poisons that can be made with Minor/Major Creation.

- There are some handle animal tricks that can give you free poison too. The guide I linked should list them. For example, according to Drow of the Underdark, it's a DC 15 Handle Animal check to convince a vermin with the Bestow Venom trick to give enough poison for a single dose, and then a DC 15 Craft check to distill that material into a usable poison.

- If you want to use your poison rather than simply sell it, protect yourself from poison. This can come from the Poison Use feature (such as the Alternate Class Feature for the Bard from Drow of the Underdark or the Master of Poisons feat, also from Drow of the Underdark) or it can simply be something being immune to poison (such as by being a Necropolitan). Lots of ways to do it.

- Weapon Capsule Retainers and Triple Weapon Capsule Retainers from Complete Adventurer are lovely for administering poison through your weapons, especially if you're getting them for 1/3rd price by crafting them.

- Cheap poisons like Sleep-Smoke or Drow Knockout Poison can be extremely effective in low level encounters, and cheap enough at mid-levels that you can just throw 'em around willy nilly and hope for a lucky win while just doing your regular murder hobo face stabbing business. Think of it as a critical hit bonus.

____________

Profession: The Anti-Flavor Skill.

While I'm talking about lame trap skills you shouldn't be putting ranks in, I might as well bring up Profession.

I sometimes refer to it as the "anti-flavor" skill. You know, like I just did in that header right there. Barring perhaps some very narrow edge cases (such as maybe Profession: Sailor in a purely maritime game), the Profession skill has no good reason to exist from a game design perspective. If you want to say your character is able to make a living as a cook or a butler, hell that's flavor text. The fact that you can earn half your Profession check in gold pieces per week doesn't even actually really matter to an adventurer.

Just to emphasize how pointless the Profession skill is, note that the typical player character with no ranks in Profession whatsoever can make more money than that per week with little to no risk to themselves. How, you ask?
- Craft with no ranks (see above). Poisonmaking makes considerably more money than Profession or any other form of craft, because it doesn't follow the same economic rules as other Craft skills.
- From the skill entry on Perform: "In addition to using the Perform skill, you can entertain people with sleight of hand, tumbling, tightrope walking, and spells (especially illusions)."
- Spellcasting. Check out the amount of money you make for casting a spell for someone. A spellcaster dedicating their daily spell selection to casting spells for NPCs rakes in cash.
- Most skills can be made to make more money than Profession gives you, while also providing actually-useful in-game effects for adventurers. Obvious ones include Knowledge, Open Lock, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Survival, Spellcraft, Speak Language, Sleight of Hand, Ride, Heal, Handle Animal, Disguise, Forgery, Appraise, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist.
- You can make money just by *having class skills* and being willing to train people or doing shows and demonstrations.
- All of this is typically dwarfed by your adventuring income, and even if it somehow isn't your DM is probably going to limit your WBL, which makes playing the economics game largely moot. Besides, if your DM isn't nixxing out-of-adventuring WBL inflation, you start worrying about things like Flesh to Salt, Wall of Iron, or breaking ladders into 10 foot poles. Ugh. As much as I love Recettear, D&D is not really the system for it.

http://www.firstpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/380CapitalismHo.jpg
3.5e's economics rules just can't handle this monster.

Moreover, lots of characters just really can't afford to dump skills. If you're a cleric, you get 2+int skills. You probably want Concentration and Spellcraft and Knowledge (Religion), and that doesn't even really leave you much wiggle room for customization as it is. A typical dwarf cleric won't even be able to get those 3 skills at max ranks, let alone if he's paying a pointless skill tax for Profession (Minister) or some such utter nonsense.

But why do I call it an "anti-flavor" skill? It's because its primary effect that I've observed in the 14 years since 3rd editions release is taxing players for writing character backstories, thus subtly encouraging people to steer clear of wanting to say things like "and also he was a totally awesome baker" in their stories. If a player puts points into Profession "for flavor reasons" then they are being mechanically penalized for wanting to add fun roleplaying details, and that just rubs me the wrong way.

So... just don't do it. Say Profession doesn't exist. Let players say that they're a good cook or have the perfect accent for a highly-sought-after butler just as a reward for bothering to write down such details in their backstory. Say players can earn a reasonable wage during downtime, and it doesn't even matter. Maybe even just say it offsets upkeep costs, since you obviously don't want to spend all your time deciding how much the PC spent on food and board and so forth over the timeskip.

Cheers,
Ludic

EDIT: Questions and Answers

If the purpose of crafting is to save money on gear, then there comes a point where you have to question spending money on things to help you craft better. Is 1000 GP for a drow insignia really worth it? Just how much are you planning on spending on mundane items?

It is worth it as soon as you want to buy even one of the more expensive special-material armor or weapons for people. Adamantine, Mythril, Feycraft, all that stuff. In fact, the 1000GP pays for itself the first time you craft a suit of Full Plate, since crafting it shaves 1000gp off of the price of Full Plate. If it's, say, Githcraft Mithral Full Plate with Masterwork Armor Spikes with a Wand Chamber and Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer, well, you save a lot more. When you're doing it for the entire party... you save a ton.

You'll also find that it adds up fast for all of the little things. Last time I played a game starting at mid-level the party saved tens of thousands of GP by doing this.

Edit2: Added my comments on Profession, added a few more notes on Craft.

Edit3: Added an additional section on Poisonmaking at another poster's suggestion.

Erik Vale
2015-01-19, 07:19 PM
Like your other one [Races], this has serious flaws.

Not everyone can afford 1000 gp of gear [Level 1 NPCs get 900, and they have to balance their entire life around that], and very few people are supposed to be class characters.
Also, 16 int, that's genius level inteligence, most people have 8-12. [Or 9-11, really, but it's not really noticeable without that +1 range].

The artisans tools you're talking about, they're masterwork items, you need to be able to hit 20 reliably just to make them, so you can't start making them. [Though price means you can probably buy them to start with, even as a level 1 npc].

Now, for your Generic NPC master crafter, let's say he has no int bonus.
He has no need to adventure, so he gets skill focus, craft [X], Puts 4 ranks in, gets his artisans tools, and has his apprentice perform aid another... That's 21 at level 1.
And you know what? That's what most people in DnD are. Level 1. And should he level up, he has the funds to buy all the nifty gear, and putting more ranks in it means he crafts even faster, earning even more money.


For players, is this ok? No. It means their wizard, if they're willing to spend their downtime and money on it, can make mundane gear himself... Of course, he could just sell his spellcasting services for more than he'd earn in a days crafting and buy the items himself, which applies to all your caster class options, making your open secret irrelevant and more expensive, and more useless [you could buy magic items instead of mundane ones], even for players.

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 07:24 PM
Not everyone can afford 1000 gp of gear [Level 1 NPCs get 900, and they have to balance their entire life around that], and very few people are supposed to be class characters.
Also, 16 int, that's genius level inteligence, most people have 8-12. [Or 9-11, really, but it's not really noticeable without that +1 range].


Now, for your Generic NPC master crafter, let's say he has no int bonus.

This thread is advice for PCs saving on skill points, not for NPCs. :smallconfused:

For NPCs, character creation resource costs don't matter. At all.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-19, 07:30 PM
I suggest adding to the guide some nifty poisons. The people needing these guides might accidentally make the wrong poison or not know where to look. A link to a poison handbook might also do.

Chronos
2015-01-19, 07:32 PM
If the purpose of crafting is to save money on gear, then there comes a point where you have to question spending money on things to help you craft better. Is 1000 GP for a drow insignia really worth it? Just how much are you planning on spending on mundane items?

Erik Vale
2015-01-19, 07:32 PM
Then again, I'll point out one of your suggestions are either spend 1000gp on stuff you'll only use in your down time to make mundane gear or earn a tiny bit of money, something that low level PCs can't do, and mid-high level PCs don't care to, and your other suggestion, use spells, is better of being used to sell your spellcasting services.

However, if you're in a game where you need to do some crafting at low level, but don't want to waste the skill points for later on because you don't plan on it being a facet of your character, I would like to point out the retraining rules and the psionics rules, of the later, specifically the power Psychic Reformation.

nedz
2015-01-19, 07:36 PM
But there are only three reasons PCs spend skill points on Craft

To qualify for a Feat
To qualify for a Prestige Class
Flavour


No one optimises to make baskets.

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 07:39 PM
If the purpose of crafting is to save money on gear, then there comes a point where you have to question spending money on things to help you craft better. Is 1000 GP for a drow insignia really worth it? Just how much are you planning on spending on mundane items?

It is worth it as soon as you want to buy even one of the more expensive special-material armor or weapons for people. Adamantine, Mythril, Feycraft, all that stuff. In fact, the 1000GP pays for itself the first time you craft a suit of Full Plate, since crafting it shaves 1000gp off of the price of Full Plate. If it's, say, Feycraft Mithral Full Plate with Masterwork Armor Spikes with a Wand Chamber and Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer, well, you save a lot more. When you're doing it for the entire party... you save a ton.

You'll also find that it adds up fast for all of the little things. Last time I played a game starting at mid-level the party saved tens of thousands of GP by doing this.


But there are only three reasons PCs spend skill points on Craft

To qualify for a Feat
To qualify for a Prestige Class
Flavour


No one optimises to make baskets.

But they do optimize to have more gear.

Erik Vale
2015-01-19, 08:08 PM
It is worth it as soon as you want to buy even one of the more expensive special-material armor or weapons for people. Adamantine, Mythril, Feycraft, all that stuff. In fact, the 1000GP pays for itself the first time you craft a suit of Full Plate, since crafting it shaves 1000gp off of the price of Full Plate. If it's, say, Feycraft Mithral Full Plate with Masterwork Armor Spikes with a Wand Chamber and Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer, well, you save a lot more. When you're doing it for the entire party... you save a ton.


This assumes you have the downtime for it [and given you're just getting enough to meet DC minimums, that's a long time], and in the case of Feycraft and it's ilk, that you are a Fey [or it's ilk].

Now, Masterwork fullplate costs 2100 [I think], so 21000 points of success are needed, but in a 18000 DC 18 section, and a 3000 DC 20 sections.
Getting a 20 on the roll [you need to, masterwork], that means you make the fullplate masterwork in 7.5 Weeks, and you make the actual plate in 50 weeks.

A year has 52[.247... I think] weeks. Masterwork Fullplate just took you 57.5 weeks.
Selling spellslots as a level 1 wizard with 16 int, you earn 35g/day, earning 2100gp in 60 days, [about 2 months/8.5 weeks].

So, the method you didn't suggest saves you so much time it isn't funny, and neither are the sort of time you have available in game, so in game you're saving no money.

Pre-game, you just try to convince a GM to let you craft this stuff using money, see how far that gets you [assuming you aren't sleeping with them], with you then selling what you used to craft it. And if your GM is allowing you to craft your party members gear pre-game, then you are the luckiest kid in the playground, because I've seen it available once. Total.



I will say however, I do craft mundne gear pre-game. However It's always been in the level 1-5 range, where money is scarce, and always with fighters, where it's special armor and weapons taking up a large amount of the value before enchanting. And if you cant spare a handful of skillpoints then, you may wish to take a second look at your character.

nedz
2015-01-19, 08:10 PM
But they do optimize to have more gear.

Yes, but not this way.

Squirrel_Dude
2015-01-19, 08:27 PM
But there are only three reasons PCs spend skill points on Craft

To qualify for a Feat
To qualify for a Prestige Class
Flavour
Gloating about how many skill points you have by wasting them on a class skill.


No one optimizes to make baskets.FTFY. You forgot one.

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 08:29 PM
snip

Yeah, craft is generally terrible for making money. As is Profession, Perform, and the like. None of the "money skills" really match up to how much an adventurer can make just by throwing their class abilities around. It's really only good for saving money on stuff you were going to get anyways, and only if you have the downtime (usually pre-game). If your DM allows you to craft stuff pre-game, you will often have some way to make DC20 craft checks within your party without any investments, and then you can just go ahead and cut all your mundane costs by 2/3rds, which can potentially give you a significant boost to your starting wealth.

So, basically free money, but far less likely to make your DM throw books at you than if you start throwing up Walls of Salt or something.

Flickerdart
2015-01-19, 08:54 PM
Yeah, craft is generally terrible for making money. As is Profession, Perform, and the like. None of the "money skills" really match up to how much an adventurer can make just by throwing their class abilities around. It's really only good for saving money on stuff you were going to get anyways, and only if you have the downtime (usually pre-game). If your DM allows you to craft stuff pre-game, you will often have some way to make DC20 craft checks within your party without any investments, and then you can just go ahead and cut all your mundane costs by 2/3rds, which can potentially give you a significant boost to your starting wealth.

So, basically free money, but far less likely to make your DM throw books at you than if you start throwing up Walls of Salt or something.
Letting PCs write wealth into their backstory is all kinds of problematic. If you let them pre-craft, you'll have the wizard demanding to be allowed to have retroactively sold his services as a spellcaster, and it only gets worse from there.

eggynack
2015-01-19, 09:06 PM
Letting PCs write wealth into their backstory is all kinds of problematic. If you let them pre-craft, you'll have the wizard demanding to be allowed to have retroactively sold his services as a spellcaster, and it only gets worse from there.
It's also not really allowed by the rules. The items you have at the beginning of the game have a certain cost, which pulls from your starting gold/WBL, and that cost doesn't care about what the item's source was. Otherwise, you could just claim a big inheritance and not have it pull from your money at all. Anyway, the real problem seems to be that craft is kinda underpowered, and I don't know that that's necessarily a problem. Some skills are underpowered, and craft isn't exactly unique in that position. It's a skill that's useful in a few particular niches, and not particularly outside of that. I don't know that that necessarily has to be made into a casters versus mundanes issue.

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 09:32 PM
Yep, Craft is an underpowered trap skill. Except Poisonmaking, sometimes (especially if you have Fabricate).

Even worse is Profession. I sometimes refer to it as the "anti-flavor" skill. Barring perhaps some very narrow edge cases (such as maybe Profession: Sailor in a purely maritime game), the Profession skill has no good reason to exist from a game design perspective. If you want to say your character is able to make a living as a cook or a butler, hell that's flavor text. The fact that you can earn half your Profession check in gold pieces per week doesn't even actually really matter to an adventurer.

A typical character with no ranks in Profession whatsoever can make more money than that per week with little to no risk to themselves. How, you ask?
- Craft with no ranks (see above). Poisonmaking makes considerably more money than Profession or any other form of craft, because it doesn't follow the same economic rules as other Craft skills.
- From the skill entry on Perform: "In addition to using the Perform skill, you can entertain people with sleight of hand, tumbling, tightrope walking, and spells (especially illusions)." You can even just use your BAB and combat feats for Perform (Weapon Drill) without any actual ranks in Perform according to Complete Warrior.
- Spellcasting. Check out the amount of money you make for casting a spell for someone. A spellcaster dedicating their daily spell selection to casting spells for NPCs rakes in cash.
- Most skills can be made to make more money than Profession gives you, while also providing actually-useful in-game effects for adventurers. Obvious ones include Knowledge, Open Lock, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Survival, Spellcraft, Speak Language, Sleight of Hand, Ride, Heal, Handle Animal, Disguise, Forgery, Appraise, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist.
- You can make money just by *having class skills* and being willing to train people or doing shows and demonstrations.
- All of this is typically dwarfed by your adventuring income, and even if it somehow isn't your DM is probably going to limit your WBL, which makes playing the economics game largely moot. Besides, if your DM isn't nixxing out-of-adventuring WBL inflation, you start worrying about things like Flesh to Salt, Wall of Iron, or breaking ladders into 10 foot poles. Ugh. As much as I love Recettear, D&D is not really the system for it.

Moreover, lots of characters just really can't afford to dump skills. If you're a cleric, you get 2+int skills. You probably want Concentration and Spellcraft and Knowledge (Religion), and that doesn't even really leave you much wiggle room for customization as it is. A typical dwarf cleric won't even be able to get those 3 skills at max ranks, let alone if he's paying a pointless skill tax for Profession (Minister) or some such utter nonsense.

But why do I call it an "anti-flavor" skill? It's because its primary effect that I've observed in about 20 years of tabletop gaming is taxing players for writing character backstories, thus encouraging people to steer clear of wanting to say things like "and also he was a totally awesome baker" in their stories. If a player puts points into Profession "for flavor reasons" then they are being mechanically penalized for wanting to add roleplaying details, and that just rubs me the wrong way.

So... just don't do it. Say Profession doesn't exist, let players say that they're a good cook or have the perfect accent for a highly-sought-after butler just as a reward for bothering to write down such details in their backstory. Say players can earn a reasonable wage during downtime, and it doesn't even matter. Maybe even just say it offsets upkeep costs, since you obviously don't want to spend all your time deciding how much the PC spent on food and board and so forth over the timeskip.

Troacctid
2015-01-19, 09:36 PM
So... just don't do it. Say Profession doesn't exist, let players say that they're a good cook or have the perfect accent for a highly-sought-after butler just as a reward for bothering to write down such details in their backstory. Say players can earn a reasonable wage during downtime, and it doesn't even matter. Maybe even just say it offsets upkeep costs, since you obviously don't want to spend all your time deciding how much the PC spent on food and board and so forth over the timeskip.

In the past, I've just given players free ranks in the Profession of their choice so that they get the background they like without the skill tax.

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 09:37 PM
In the past, I've just given players free ranks in the Profession of their choice so that they get the background they like without the skill tax.

Yay! :smallsmile:

Troacctid
2015-01-19, 09:47 PM
It's nice because they can then roll a check if they can think of a way it would be useful in a given situation, thus making them feel smart and rewarding them for being creative!

...That's the theory, anyway. The game I tried it in only ended up lasting a couple sessions, so it didn't get much chance to shine. It did do a nice job of helping players flesh out their backstories a bit, though.

(Un)Inspired
2015-01-19, 09:53 PM
Sooooooooo your announcement is that wizards are better than everyone else at doing something?

That's kinda old news right?

LudicSavant
2015-01-19, 10:17 PM
It's nice because they can then roll a check if they can think of a way it would be useful in a given situation, thus making them feel smart and rewarding them for being creative!

...That's the theory, anyway. The game I tried it in only ended up lasting a couple sessions, so it didn't get much chance to shine. It did do a nice job of helping players flesh out their backstories a bit, though.

I generally do the same thing with circumstance bonuses.

Vhaidara
2015-01-19, 11:22 PM
I traditionally allow my players a bonus skill point/level (PF) to spend on a Profession or irrelevant Craft skill (so no Alchemy/Poison, or using it for Shattered Mirror maneuvers) for flavor purposes.

DreganHiregard
2015-01-19, 11:31 PM
Absolutely, wizards are better craftsmen than craftsmen. As are any adventurers. Adventurers do pretty much everything better than professionals for sure. So what I do is pretty simple, I give my players an extra 1 skill point per level that they can only spend on "trap" skills, to let them actually be skilled and have distinction without forcing them to blow skill points on it that could be used in better places. It's a quick easy solution that doesn't unbalance things but lets someone flesh out their character that little bit extra. Along with that comes a gentleman's agreement not to show each other up in their respective skill. So the wizard understands that if he put his ranks into weaving, he can, but shouldn't use items and spells to outcook the fighter who has ranks in cook.

Edit: Ninja'd by someone with the same idea

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 12:00 AM
I traditionally allow my players a bonus skill point/level (PF) to spend on a Profession or irrelevant Craft skill (so no Alchemy/Poison, or using it for Shattered Mirror maneuvers) for flavor purposes.


Absolutely, wizards are better craftsmen than craftsmen. As are any adventurers. Adventurers do pretty much everything better than professionals for sure. So what I do is pretty simple, I give my players an extra 1 skill point per level that they can only spend on "trap" skills, to let them actually be skilled and have distinction without forcing them to blow skill points on it that could be used in better places. It's a quick easy solution that doesn't unbalance things but lets someone flesh out their character that little bit extra. Along with that comes a gentleman's agreement not to show each other up in their respective skill. So the wizard understands that if he put his ranks into weaving, he can, but shouldn't use items and spells to outcook the fighter who has ranks in cook.

Edit: Ninja'd by someone with the same idea

It's a good idea. :smallsmile:

I am generally fond of rules that "smooth over" aspects of character creation that don't really affect your power level in general but free players to add more flavorful details.

For instance, some things I use in many of my own games include that I give people circumstance bonuses where something in their background could reasonably apply (well, that's not really a houserule), as well as consolidating the skill system (sort of Pathfinder-esque) and handing out something I called "Background Feats" (everybody gets one) which turned out in a fun bit of convergent evolution to be surprisingly akin to 5e's Backgrounds (grant a couple extra class skills (not UMD or anything like that), and grants a "flavor feat" like Favored In House that people wouldn't actually want competing with things like Power Attack. You know the kind of feats I'm talking about). And when it comes to questions like "can you cook it" the answer is simply "yes, you can." If you wanted to compete with someone else what has "Cooking: Yes" then you would just use an attribute roll instead of a skill roll... just like you do for every other action that isn't explicitly covered by a skill.


I suggest adding to the guide some nifty poisons. The people needing these guides might accidentally make the wrong poison or not know where to look. A link to a poison handbook might also do.

Sure. I didn't add it at first since this post was more about the "bad" Craft skills than Poisonmaking (which is different enough that I tend to think of it as a different kind of skill entirely), but I can add some details on poison and link to old handbooks. Gimme a bit and I'll update it.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-20, 01:01 AM
Given where this went, perhaps a stand alone guide on poisons would help out. Ways to get classes and feats to use them, etc.

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 01:07 AM
Given where this went, perhaps a stand alone guide on poisons would help out. Ways to get classes and feats to use them, etc.

You don't think the Arsenic and Old Lace guide is sufficient? I think the only significant thing I could add to it off the top of my head would be lists of specific interesting builds or the fact that the Magic Item Compendium errata allows you to get a 620gp 1/day Psionic Minor Creation for all your poison-conjuring needs, and I already included that second bit.

Right now I'm working on the next article, which is going to be about a consolidated list of expanded skill uses. You know, the ones scattered throughout every bloody supplement like how you can use Intimidate for a Duel of Wills in Tome of Battle or Gather Information for procuring magic items in Magic Item Compendium? I don't think I've ever seen a good, complete guide for that. So RT and I are combing through every supplement to get them all in one place.

Troacctid
2015-01-20, 01:19 AM
Aren't they pretty much all in the Rules Compendium?

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 01:24 AM
Aren't they pretty much all in the Rules Compendium?

No. Some are, such as Duel of Wills, but many are not.

Coidzor
2015-01-20, 02:06 AM
I traditionally allow my players a bonus skill point/level (PF) to spend on a Profession or irrelevant Craft skill (so no Alchemy/Poison, or using it for Shattered Mirror maneuvers) for flavor purposes.

Shattered Mirror maneuvers? Bought by skill points? Does Path of War use the skill system to get maneuvers?

Milo v3
2015-01-20, 02:38 AM
Shattered Mirror maneuvers? Bought by skill points? Does Path of War use the skill system to get maneuvers?

No, but Shattered Mirror uses a Craft (Mirrors) skill as it's Discipline Skill, iirc.

Yahzi
2015-01-20, 03:50 AM
Murderhobos aren't supposed to have job skills. That's why they are murderhobos.

As for the idea that a wizard is going to spend his time making armor... srsly? He doesn't have something better to do with his time? Not that he's selling his spells; sure, you can get that price for a spell, but that doesn't mean you can sell every spell-slot every day. Since those prices are out of most people's leagues (and even adventurers balk at paying them), there is no market for those services, other than the occasional buyer.

I agree that the economic system of D&D has some holes, but it's not actually that bad if you apply a little nuance.

ILM
2015-01-20, 04:22 AM
I use a houserule (which still doesn't get much use - that's how much mundane crafting sucks) to accelerate crafting:
Instead of multiplying your check result by the DC to obtain the silver piece progression (or gold piece progression for certain exceptions, like poisons) of your work over a week, use the following formula: double your check result and subtract the DC, then multiply by 100 sp (or gp, as the case may be). This deactivates the Quick Creation option in Complete Adventurer.


Also, builds: Necropolitan Cloistered Cleric 1 (Craft and Artifice domains)/ Factotum 3. Feats: Master of Poisons, Skill Focus, Poison Expert (CS), Lolth's Caress (DotU) - the last two are actually optional if you don't use flaws.
With a starting Int of 18 and 7 ranks in the skill, +1 from the Specialized trait, +2 from a masterwork item, +3 from Skill Focus and +4 from the Artifice domain, you're already at +21. As a Factotum, you can mimic one spell as an SLA, which will be Magecraft (+5). Finally, add on a wand of Divine Insight (or take two more Cleric levels) and you get another +8. You're a Factotum so burn another inspiration point on Cunning Knowledge (+3). There, +37. If you take 10, you can create any poison ever published by WotC in 3.5.

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 04:29 AM
Murderhobos aren't supposed to have job skills. That's why they are murderhobos.

As for the idea that a wizard is going to spend his time making armor... srsly? He doesn't have something better to do with his time? Not that he's selling his spells; sure, you can get that price for a spell, but that doesn't mean you can sell every spell-slot every day. Since those prices are out of most people's leagues (and even adventurers balk at paying them), there is no market for those services, other than the occasional buyer.

I agree that the economic system of D&D has some holes, but it's not actually that bad if you apply a little nuance.

If by nuance, you mean houserules and a gentleman's agreement, then sure. But a gentleman's agreement not to try to make as much money as you can by exploiting the heck out of people really undermines the game of Recettear ;)

ace rooster
2015-01-20, 07:30 AM
If by nuance, you mean houserules and a gentleman's agreement, then sure. But a gentleman's agreement not to try to make as much money as you can by exploiting the heck out of people really undermines the game of Recettear ;)

The economic rules are a very sketchy skeleton of a system. The gentleman's agreement is required because the alternative is that the DM has to find or come up with economics rules that are much more fleshed out, and might not permit you to do what you want (or permit NPC experts to do it better, see my feats for experts homebrew). It is a bit like suddenly deciding that the party needs to visit that underwater kingdom that the DM mentioned once as fluff, because you heard there was profit to be had there. This forces the DM to build the underwater kingdom, rather than just having a sketch. If you get there and discover that there is no profit to be had and then headed back that is a huge waste of effort on the DM's part.

Another way of thinking about it is what I call 'rule focus'. The rules are designed with PCs in combat situations in mind, so when dealing with these situations the rules are clearest. Outside of this focal area situations are out of focus, and the rules are crude, simple, and lacking in nuance. Generally the further you are from the focal area the more distorted the rules become, becoming a crude general guide for DMs making rulings on specific situations. The gentleman's agreement is that the players avoid moving too far outside the rules focal area, in the same way that they agree to stay roughly in the setting focal area. Violating either of these requires the DM to refocus the game, which can be a huge amount of work.

Deophaun
2015-01-20, 09:21 AM
I thought the purpose of Craft skills was to have something for unseen crafter to plug into.

Deadline
2015-01-20, 12:03 PM
Real Craftsmen Don't Take Ranks In Craft

They cast Fabricate.

Craft(Int) is for:


Simulating mundane crafting.
Feat or Prestige Class prerequisites.
Warforged, so they can heal themselves mundanely.


It's probably worth noting that we did have a Junkyard Wars competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?369604-Junkyard-Wars-in-the-Playground-VI-Wonderworker-Profession-Skill-Factotum&p=18116690&viewfull=1#post18116690) that centered around the Profession Skill. That skill has even fewer (very specialized) uses or areas for optimization.

nedz
2015-01-20, 04:34 PM
I once played in a game where someone put 5 ranks into Profession(Diplomat) — you can see where this is going, right ?

Flickerdart
2015-01-20, 04:58 PM
I once played in a game where someone put 5 ranks into Profession(Diplomat) — you can see where this is going, right ?
We had a thread some time ago where some guy tried to pass off "Profession (Lockpicker)" ranks as Open Lock ranks. Unfortunately, Profession has nothing to do with how good you are at your job, only how much money you make doing it.

Vhaidara
2015-01-20, 05:12 PM
We had a thread some time ago where some guy tried to pass off "Profession (Lockpicker)" ranks as Open Lock ranks. Unfortunately, Profession has nothing to do with how good you are at your job, only how much money you make doing it.

I was momentarily in a campaign with someone who had ranks in Profession (Warmage)

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 06:03 PM
The sad part is that those examples probably aren't even any more useless than usual.

Coidzor
2015-01-20, 08:09 PM
I once played in a game where someone put 5 ranks into Profession(Diplomat) — you can see where this is going, right ?

They wanted to try to finagle more synergy bonuses for Sense Motive and Diplomacy, along with maybe Bluff and Intimidate? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: Or were they somehow trying to be a Diplomancer without any of the appropriate Diplomancer classes? :smallconfused:

It makes a certain amount of sense, I suppose, to have Profession(X) skills give a synergy bonus to X-related skills(like Profession Sailor and Use Rope, say, or Craft: goldsmithing and appraising gold art objects and the like) though it would wildly unbalance Profession as certain professions would give more synergy bonuses than others.

If you were going to allow Profession/Craft to provide synergies, you'd probably need to limit synergy bonuses to come from only one of the potential Craft, Perform, or Profession skills to any other skill, though, to prevent someone from getting +4 synergy from 10 ranks in Craft: Locks and Professoin: Locksmith/Safe-Cracker/whatever, though the cost would be fairly prohibitive for anything that wasn't, say, UMD/UPD or Diplomancy using Diplomacy/Perform*. Maybe extend that to Knowledge skills as well.

*Or at least, those are the most disruptive skills that come to mind if someone can really pump them like that by setting other skillpoints on fire. I suppose being able to train bigger and badder beasties with Handle Animal might also be a concern, though Bubs can already manage Battle Titans as is.


If by nuance, you mean houserules and a gentleman's agreement, then sure. But a gentleman's agreement not to try to make as much money as you can by exploiting the heck out of people really undermines the game of Recettear ;)

Yeah, to play Recettear in d20 you'd probably have to create your own economics and business system, rather than being able to just adapt what currently exists out there to one's purposes. The end result of that would either be coming up with one's own d20 system in and of itself or creating a significant set of supplemental rules that one might be able to get some beer money for by marketing it to Pathfinder and 3.P players, maybe.

Which, I admit, having some really good business and organization rules would be nice.

LudicSavant
2015-01-20, 09:28 PM
Yeah, to play Recettear in d20 you'd probably have to create your own economics and business system, rather than being able to just adapt what currently exists out there to one's purposes. The end result of that would either be coming up with one's own d20 system in and of itself or creating a significant set of supplemental rules that one might be able to get some beer money for by marketing it to Pathfinder and 3.P players, maybe.

Which, I admit, having some really good business and organization rules would be nice.

Hey man, if you ever find a good version of Logistics and Dragons, you let me know ;)

nedz
2015-01-20, 09:31 PM
They wanted to try to finagle more synergy bonuses for Sense Motive and Diplomacy, along with maybe Bluff and Intimidate? :smallconfused:

:smallconfused: Or were they somehow trying to be a Diplomancer without any of the appropriate Diplomancer classes? :smallconfused:


Circumstance is the word you are looking for.

Milo v3
2015-01-20, 11:08 PM
Circumstance is the word you are looking for.

No, synergy sounds like what he meant. Where if you possess 5 or more ranks in an associated skill you get a bonus to the skill your making, though as far as I'm aware the list of synergies is rather minimal.

Coidzor
2015-01-21, 12:32 AM
Circumstance is the word you are looking for.


No, synergy sounds like what he meant. Where if you possess 5 or more ranks in an associated skill you get a bonus to the skill your making, though as far as I'm aware the list of synergies is rather minimal.

Yeah, if it had been any number other than 5 I wouldn't have mentally jumped straight to skill synergies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillSynergy), I think.

I guess technically skill synergies give an untyped bonus rather than having their own bonus type though. :smallredface:

So was it for the skill synergy or were they trying to use Profession(Diplomat) to let them consolidate Sense Motive and Diplomacy or just have Diplomacy key off of their Wisdom score instead of Charisma? :smallconfused: