Why is Sabine Evil?

[goto124]

This sounds like a really silly question, what with Sabine being a succubus, but I've read all the comic strips and still can't wrap my mind around it.

What Evil things has she done?

[Razanir]

She's a devil/demon (we don't know which) and is, by her very nature, evil.

[Keltest]

You mean besides assist in the kidnapping of a young woman, attempted murder of everyone in the Order of the Stick, the planned ritual sacrifice of Haley over a glass of wine, assisting in the murder of a non-specific but large number of people in Cliffport, and act as a willing and direct agent of the IFCC and their evil goals?

And heck, those are just the things I remember off the top of my head.

[Squark]

She's kidnapped a teenager and is in love with a guy who played serial killer. Probably more I,he forgotten.

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html

[Procyonpi]

Well this is a new one.

[Porthos]

She's a devil/demon (we don't know which) and is, by her very nature, evil.

Sabine is confirmed to be a succubus by the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html) and thus is a demon.

She does work for a Lawful Evil boss, though (Lee). But that's the whole IFCC philosophy in action. :smallsmile:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, she works for fiends and supports their long-term goals of destroying the Upper Planes, she's in love with Nale and supports him in almost every way (which means she was an accomplice to many murders and a kidnapping), she's tried to kill Haley on multiple occasions, she tried to kill Elan directly at least once, killed one of the prison guards, and certainly more. What has she done that makes her particularly non-Evil?

[Peelee]

Let's not forget how she tried to turn Miko into a powerful soldier in the armies of darkness.

[-D-]

Let's not forget how she tried to turn Miko into a powerful soldier in the armies of darkness.
Was that Sabine or Tsukiko?

[Porthos]

Was that Sabine or Tsukiko?

:sabine: A Special Pre-Approved Offer. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html)

[MReav]

She is literally an evil incarnation of illicit sex. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html)

[SaintRidley]

And by literally, she means literally. She is literally made of evil (and chaos).

[ti'esar]

And by literally, she means literally. She is literally made of evil (and chaos).

Although there have been non-evil demons in D&D history - including at least one rather well-known succubus.

Not that I'm agreeing that this particular one is in question; Sabine is quite clearly evil.

Edit: Make that two rather well-known succubi.

[SaintRidley]

Yeah, Eludecia wasn't evil in terms of alignment, but she was still evil in terms of material. Because her alignment was the diametric opposite of her physical and metaphysical makeup, she would ping whether you used Detect Law, Detect Good, Detect Evil, or Detect Chaos. She'd also be screwed by any alignment based weaponry due to counting as all non-neutral alignments simultaneously.

Same with Fall-from-grace, except for the part where she pings Good. She was Lawful Neutral.

[factotum]

Yeah, I'm a bit baffled about this question as well--I'm struggling to think of a single Good thing Sabine has done over the course of the strip, unless you count her telling V about the weaknesses of Tarquin's team; and it's pretty clear she only did that to gain some measure of revenge against Tarquin for killing Nale.

[ti'esar]

Yeah, I'm a bit baffled about this question as well--I'm struggling to think of a single Good thing Sabine has done over the course of the strip, unless you count her telling V about the weaknesses of Tarquin's team; and it's pretty clear she only did that to gain some measure of revenge against Tarquin for killing Nale.

Well, she does quite genuinely love Nale - and yes, of course that's not exclusive to good people and indeed the Giant has written about evil people having meaningful relationships in the past. But after the way the whole arc with Tarquin kind of deconstructed that, I can somewhat understand why people might see Sabine as significantly less evil for having the ability to love.

[goto124]

The Giant's got the ability to flesh out even the villians. They are in some sense sympathic and 'human' while still Evil.

Sheesh, I keep forgetting the Evil things Sabine does, especially with her (positively-potrayed!) relationship with Nale.

Also: Sabine's attitude towards sex seems rather irrelevant to her Evilness. Though she's a succubus, she doesn't quite channel 'sex is evil'. I dunno, I could be biased. It's just how I felt.

How many people have hit on Miko? As in, flirting with her, not literally hitting her.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Two, that we know of.

And if the idea that Evil people can have normal lives (including love and family) is so hard for you to grasp, stay away from Rich Morris' YAFGC.

[Kioran]

There are and were many non-evil antagonists in this Comic (Like Miko...) - but Sabine certainly isn't one of them. Aside from being a demon, she does kill an awful lot of innocents throughout the comic.

As one example, the Linear Guild's progress through Dorukan's dungeon was hardly peaceful either.

[dps]

Also: Sabine's attitude towards sex seems rather irrelevant to her Evilness. Though she's a succubus, she doesn't quite channel 'sex is evil'. I dunno, I could be biased. It's just how I felt

That's probably because the comic as a whole takes what I guess could be called a "modern" attitude toward sex and doesn't portray sex to be evil as such. Even the Paladins of the Sapphire Guard don't take that view, not even Miko.

[goto124]

Now to find the comic where a paladin (Miko?) was taken hostage by goblins for a virgin sacrifice, and she says she's lost her virginity on Prom Night...

[Keltest]

Now to find the comic where a paladin (Miko?) was taken hostage by goblins for a virgin sacrifice, and she says she's lost her virginity on Prom Night...

That was Lien, and she was captured by orcs.

[HalfTangible]

Now to find the comic where a paladin (Miko?) was taken hostage by goblins for a virgin sacrifice, and she says she's lost her virginity on Prom Night...

Not Miko. That's the one with a shark mount... whose name thoroughly escapes me at the moment. :smallconfused:

[NerdyKris]

Now to find the comic where a paladin (Miko?) was taken hostage by goblins for a virgin sacrifice, and she says she's lost her virginity on Prom Night...

That was Lien (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0554.html), and they were Orcs.

[Darth Paul]

There's even bonus material in Paladin Blues that shows two female paladins playing both sides of the fence on New Year's Eve, so to speak. It's a little hard to judge what Sabine might mean when she says she's the incarnation of "illicit" sex. By whose standards?

Well, now I realize- when Sabine tells Nale that she had it four times while she was away from him (in 3 hours, no less). I guess that would count as illicit, since she's in a committed relationship with him.

[goto124]

I'm more impressed by how she managed 4 men people in that span of time. But that's just me, who doesn't take things seriously :P

Not that I condone that sort of behaviour IRL, men or women on whatever side.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There's even bonus material in Paladin Blues that shows two female paladins playing both sides of the fence on New Year's Eve, so to speak. It's a little hard to judge what Sabine might mean when she says she's the incarnation of "illicit" sex. By whose standards?

Well, now I realize- when Sabine tells Nale that she had it four times while she was away from him (in 3 hours, no less). I guess that would count as illicit, since she's in a committed relationship with him.
Illicit can kind of be a vague term anyway, so it is kind of hard to define what she means by it. Your second example is probably a pretty good illustration of what she means, though.

[Keltest]

I'm more impressed by how she managed 4 men people in that span of time. But that's just me, who doesn't take things seriously :P

Not that I condone that sort of behaviour IRL, men or women on whatever side.

Well, she had errands to run too. :smalltongue:

[MReav]

It's a little hard to judge what Sabine might mean when she says she's the incarnation of "illicit" sex. By whose standards?

Well, now I realize- when Sabine tells Nale that she had it four times while she was away from him (in 3 hours, no less). I guess that would count as illicit, since she's in a committed relationship with him.

Illicit probably refers to the betrayal of trust, like seducing someone in a non-open relationship or under a vow of chastity, or convincing someone to do something they'd otherwise find unappealing.

Alternatively, she's talking about straight up coercion. Ignoring how Sabine can probably overpower most people, Succubi can shapeshift at will, cast Suggestion, and weaponize sexual assault. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html)

[Darth Paul]

Succubi can shapeshift at will, cast Suggestion, and weaponize sexual assault. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html)

Thus making them (historically) fantasy fuel for repressed men, who would imagine themselves "coerced" into doing the things they were just itching to do in any case.

Maybe this is why some male readers are ambiguous about Sabine's "evil" status; we don't want her to be evil because we want it to be OK if we like her?

[Reboot]

Thus making them (historically) fantasy fuel for repressed men, who would imagine themselves "coerced" into doing the things they were just itching to do in any case.

Weren't, "historical" succubi basically excuses for men getting their mistresses pregnant more like tricksters, who would pretend to be a man's wife, collect his "seed", gender-swap and do the same thing with a woman as an incubus than the kinky life-drainers of modern invention?

[Mike Havran]

There are and were many non-evil antagonists in this Comic (Like Miko...) - but Sabine certainly isn't one of them. I wouldn't say there were/are many of them. I recall only Miko and maybe Therkla and Samantha's dad.

[allenw]

I wouldn't say there were/are many of them. I recall only Miko and maybe Therkla and Samantha's dad.
Don't forget the bounty hunters. Ian Starshine's also been a quasi-antagonist.

[Onyavar]

There's even bonus material in Paladin Blues that shows two female paladins playing both sides of the fence on New Year's Eve, so to speak. It's a little hard to judge what Sabine might mean when she says she's the incarnation of "illicit" sex. By whose standards?

Well, now I realize- when Sabine tells Nale that she had it four times while she was away from him (in 3 hours, no less). I guess that would count as illicit, since she's in a committed relationship with him.

Also remember the time where Sabine mentions that she has been shapeshifting before to stick it to Nale, which was considered very illicit by Nale. It's up to the reader to imagine Sabine ra*ing Nale's a**, but the allusion is right there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)


Weren't, "historical" succubi basically excuses for men getting their mistresses pregnant more like tricksters, who would pretend to be a man's wife, collect his "seed", gender-swap and do the same thing with a woman as an incubus than the kinky life-drainers of modern invention?

Which is why "historically", bastards are considered evil offsprings of demons, even in case that their parents were both law-upholding mewmbers of society. Yes.

[hamishspence]

There was also that bonus strip with the Linear Guild, right before they visit "Warthog's School of Wizardry and Sorcery"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html

in which Nale grumps over one of Sabine's exes giving them a lift there. Sabine offers to make it up to him with a little game of "Evil Conqueror and Innocent Virgin" - and Nale says "OK - but this time I get to be the conqueror".

[137beth]

There was also that bonus strip with the Linear Guild, right before they visit "Warthog's School of Wizardry and Sorcery"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html

in which Nale grumps over one of Sabine's exes giving them a lift there. Sabine offers to make it up to him with a little game of "Evil Conqueror and Innocent Virgin" - and Nale says "OK - but this time I get to be the conqueror".

And if she was vulnerable to Stoppus Badguyus, then obviously she has to be evil:smalltongue:

But yea, Cliffport, attempting to kill Haley, Roy, and Elan, and the IFCC puts her pretty clearly in the evil range.

[goto124]

Also remember the time where Sabine mentions that she has been shapeshifting before to stick it to Nale, which was considered very illicit by Nale. It's up to the reader to imagine Sabine ra*ing Nale's a**, but the allusion is right there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)


in which Nale grumps over one of Sabine's exes giving them a lift there. Sabine offers to make it up to him with a little game of "Evil Conqueror and Innocent Virgin" - and Nale says "OK - but this time I get to be the conqueror".

It was consensual in all cases, wasn't it?

And Nale was just embarrassed about what he considers as his 'gay exploration thing'.

[oppyu]

Also remember the time where Sabine mentions that she has been shapeshifting before to stick it to Nale, which was considered very illicit by Nale. It's up to the reader to imagine Sabine ra*ing Nale's a**, but the allusion is right there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html)
Let's not misuse that word for what was, as far as we know, consensual intercourse between Nale and Sabine. Nothing wrong with a bit of pegging.

[Coidzor]

Let's not misuse that word for what was, as far as we know, consensual intercourse between Nale and Sabine. Nothing wrong with a bit of pegging.

Is it really pegging if one is an evil incarnation of illicit sex that can switch between male and female genitalia as desired?


This sounds like a really silly question, what with Sabine being a succubus, but I've read all the comic strips and still can't wrap my mind around it.

What Evil things has she done?

Less silly, more bizarre.

It's so bizarre I'm left wondering what your difficulty in seeing Sabine as being evil and villainous stems from. :smallconfused:

[goto124]

Probably I read through the comics rather fast (binge-read), and thus her evil acts, which weren't much more evil than the other evil characters, failed to stand out and all I remembered was 'succubus, sex, wooah'

[Keltest]

Probably I read through the comics rather fast (binge-read), and thus her evil acts, which weren't much more evil than the other evil characters, failed to stand out and all I remembered was 'succubus, sex, wooah'

Sabine does have a tendency to stand back and politely listen to Nale monologue instead of performing her own evil in the meanwhile.

[goto124]

Do you think it was intentional? To make her not TOO evil, due to her connection to sex and the Giant wanting to potray sex as not-evil?

[Keltest]

Do you think it was intentional? To make her not TOO evil, due to her connection to sex and the Giant wanting to potray sex as not-evil?

I doubt it. Sabine pre-dates any concerted effort by the Giant to be more socially aware, and he has felt bound to follow existing characterization. Haley growing out of using gender slurs is one thing, but Sabine becoming less evil because "ooo, sex!" is hard to justify in story.

It may have been intentional to show her genuine love for Nale though.

[Dodom]

The Giant conveys that better by showing that characters of all kinds can be sexual as well. Sure, Sabine is a sexual being, but so's Haley, just to name one.

[NerdyKris]

Do you think it was intentional? To make her not TOO evil, due to her connection to sex and the Giant wanting to potray sex as not-evil?

No, she's equally as evil as Nale. Apparently the "not really evil, just being ordered to by Nale" drum has been passed on from Thog to Sabine.

She's evil. She murdered the sylph in the dungeon, the guard in the jail, dozens of people in Cliffport, and works for the literal incarnation of evil. She has also stated that she practices virgin sacrifices and has desired to have sex on top of dead people.

She is just as complacent in Nale's plots as Thog is. Every member of the Linear Guild is evil, especially the ones that were active in Cliffport, where they were either commiting a mass slaughter or allowing teammates to do so. I'm not seeing these more evil acts Nale has done. Letting the leader lead isn't a good act, it's just letting the leader lead.

[Keltest]

No, she's equally as evil as Nale. Apparently the "not really evil, just being ordered to by Nale" drum has been passed on from Thog to Sabine.

She's evil. She murdered the sylph in the dungeon, the guard in the jail, dozens of people in Cliffport, and works for the literal incarnation of evil. She has also stated that she practices virgin sacrifices and has desired to have sex on top of dead people.

She is just as complacent in Nale's plots as Thog is. Every member of the Linear Guild is evil, especially the ones that were active in Cliffport, where they were either commiting a mass slaughter or allowing teammates to do so. I'm not seeing these more evil acts Nale has done. Letting the leader lead isn't a good act, it's just letting the leader lead.

Point of order. Sabine did not murder any sylph in any dungeon. Z was the one who cast flesh to stone, and even then Celia survived.

[NerdyKris]

Shoot, why didn't I look that up first. Also why did I think Sabine had a flesh to stone spell and that Celia died? I blame lack of coffee.

[Capnris]

One reason that has been left out, but may be the most telling of all: Red leather. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0045.html)

[Reboot]

She is just as complacent in Nale's plots as Thog is.
I dunno, she seem to work harder than Thog ;)


Every member of the Linear Guild is evil, especially the ones that were active in Cliffport, where they were either commiting a mass slaughter or allowing teammates to do so.

Aren't druids required to be Neutral?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aren't druids required to be Neutral?

Only on one axis. Leeky was Neutral Evil.

[Emperordaniel]

Aren't druids required to be Neutral?

They can be Neutral on the Good-Evil axis or the Lawful-Chaotic axis (or both if they so choose), so they have five possible alignments to choose from.

EDIT: I swear, that ninja wasn't there a minute ago...

[goto124]

"She's as evil as Nale."

When I saw Nale getting killed by Tarquin, it took me a while to realise it's supposed to be tragic, going by the tone and other clues in that comic strip and surrounding strips. So... a villian got killed... and it's tragic... because... a bigger villian did it? Selfish reasons and stuff? Or er what? How are we supposed to have a villain that's killed off and this event being a happy one? Will only Xykon dying achieve this, since he's the only hammy-obviously-sterotype-villian?

[Keltest]

"She's as evil as Nale."

When I saw Nale getting killed by Tarquin, it took me a while to realise it's supposed to be tragic, going by the tone and other clues in that comic strip and surrounding strips. So... a villian got killed... and it's tragic... because... a bigger villian did it? Selfish reasons and stuff? Or er what? How are we supposed to have a villain that's killed off and this event being a happy one? Will only Xykon dying achieve this, since he's the only hammy-obviously-sterotype-villian?

Its not so much tragic for Nale as it is for Elan and Tarquin. Definitive proof that Elan can never have the family he wants now, even if its a bad idea in the first place. He cant even kinda sorta have Tarquin, since its pretty clear at that point that he isn't reading the same script that Elan is.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"She's as evil as Nale."

When I saw Nale getting killed by Tarquin, it took me a while to realise it's supposed to be tragic, going by the tone and other clues in that comic strip and surrounding strips. So... a villian got killed... and it's tragic... because... a bigger villian did it? Selfish reasons and stuff? Or er what? How are we supposed to have a villain that's killed off and this event being a happy one? Will only Xykon dying achieve this, since he's the only hammy-obviously-sterotype-villian?

I don't think it's necessarily supposed to be tragic, but it does really help to show us what Tarquin is really like, as well as give Elan some further character development, give Sabine further motivation to help Vaarsuvius, and make Haley even less trusting of Tarquin, if that's possible. Also, keep in mind that while Elan never wanted Nale dead, and Sabine mourns him, Haley clearly doesn't see his death as so tragic. I always enjoyed Nale, so I was somewhat saddened to see him die, but really I was more shocked than anything.