Tome of Battle: Can you get rid of maneuvers after using them to qualify for others?

[Windrammer]

For example, say I want Sudden Leap.

It has a prerequisite of 1 Tiger Claw maneuver. So I learn Wolf Fang Strike first.

Later I get Sudden Leap. Great.

Later I get rid of Wolf Fang Strike.

That's ok, isn't it?

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes it is, because maneuvers count as prerequisites for themselves. As long as you meet the prerequisite number of maneuvers known, you're good.

[Erik Vale]

Yes. You would still have one manuever from the discipline, so it would meet it's prerequisite by itself, allowing you to keep using it. However, if your DM rules that it can't be it's own prerequisite, then you'll still have it, but be unable to use it... Except as a prerequisite for another that requires one from the same discipline, which would then allow you to use both.

[Ashtagon]

Yes it is, because maneuvers count as prerequisites for themselves. As long as you meet the prerequisite number of maneuvers known, you're good.

I'm pretty sure they don't.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm pretty sure they don't.Why wouldn't they? It's hard to argue that you don't still have 1 Tiger Claw maneuver if you have Sudden Leap. You would only cease to have a Tiger Claw maneuver when you lost Sudden Leap, which you wouldn't do unless you ceased to have a Tiger Claw maneuver.

Also, does it actually say anywhere that you must always meet prerequisites for maneuvers you know? As far as I'm aware, you only need to meet the prereqs when learning the maneuver.

[Ashtagon]

Why wouldn't they? It's hard to argue that you don't still have 1 Tiger Claw maneuver if you have Sudden Leap. You would only cease to have a Tiger Claw maneuver when you lost Sudden Leap, which you wouldn't do unless you ceased to have a Tiger Claw maneuver.

Also, does it actually say anywhere that you must always meet prerequisites for maneuvers you know? As far as I'm aware, you only need to meet the prereqs when learning the maneuver.

I checked my book, and it seems to be RAW legal to do this :smallconfused:

No way it's happening at my games table though.

[ILM]

If you look at the ToB Q&A compiled on the Wizards boards (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1125111), you'll find a variety of questions answered by the Sage or Customer Service. While we're all slightly wary of those sources, which tend to be somewhat inconsistent (as evidenced by a couple questions in there asked twice and getting different answers), it's about as official an answer as you'll get at this point in time.

Anyway, relevant part:

Q: When you swap maneuvers and you only just have the number of maneuvers and stances to meet the prerequisite for the new maneuver, can you replace one of that maneuve's discipline's maneuvers or do you have to replace one from another discipline?
A: No, because a maneuver cannot be its own prerequisite. However, if you learn a maneuver (meeting its prerequisites) and swap out another maneuver of that maneuver's discipline, you do not lose the use of that maneuver. Prerequisites only apply to learning maneuvers, not using them.

Also,

Q: All of the new base classes from Tome of Battle offer the option of swapping out an old maneuver to gain a new maneuver at certain levels.
What happens if, as a result of swapping out an old maneuver, I can no longer meet the pre-requisites for another stance or maneuver that I currently know? Suppose, for instance, that I currently only have the following 2 maneuvers/stances from the Iron Heart discipline: A) Absolute Steel, and B) Disarming Strike. Absolute Steel is a stance that has one Iron Heart maneuver as a pre-requisite. Disarming Strike currently fulfills that pre-requisite for me. Suppose I reach 4th level and decide to swap out Disarming Strike for another maneuver from a different discipline. I no longer meet the pre-requisites for the Absolute Steel stance. Am I still allowed to use the Absolute Steel stance? What if Absolute Steel were a maneuver instead of a stance; would I be allowed to use it?
A: Going with a strict interpretation of the rules, you would only need to have the appropriate number of maneuvers to meet a prerequisite when you needed to learn the maneuver, not if you wanted to use that maneuver later. So the character in question would still be able to use the Absolute Steel stance even though you have given up your only Iron Heart maneuver. So again, you only have to meet the prerequisites when you learn the maneuver or stance, not when you want to use ready or use it. I hope that clears things up.
Make of that what you will :smallwink:.

[Seto]

Oh. That's weird. 'Cause you know, if you're a Monk and then become non-Lawful, you can't use your Monk abilities, can you ? When you take Combat Expertise and take too much Intelligence damage, you can't use it, can you ? (or else anything with any base INT score could take it if it had been buffed enough upon gaining a level, and use it later after the buffs wore off).
Well, I get the angle "once you've learned it, you're not going to forget it just because you swap another maneuver", but that's still weird, I wouldn't have predicted it.

[Deophaun]

Oh. That's weird. 'Cause you know, if you're a Monk and then become non-Lawful, you can't use your Monk abilities, can you ?
Let's go to the SRD:

A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

When you take Combat Expertise and take too much Intelligence damage, you can't use it, can you ?
And if Combat Expertise was a maneuver, not a feat, that would be relevant.

[Seto]

Oh, right. I need to go over the SRD again sometime.


And if Combat Expertise was a maneuver, not a feat, that would be relevant.
I'm not saying they're the same thing, I'm just saying that, not knowing how maneuvers work in this instance, I would probably have gone with "there's no reason they shouldn't work the same as feats" (feats that let you do melee things anyway).

[Nightraiderx]

For example, say I want Sudden Leap.

It has a prerequisite of 1 Tiger Claw maneuver. So I learn Wolf Fang Strike first.

Later I get Sudden Leap. Great.

Later I get rid of Wolf Fang Strike.

That's ok, isn't it?

I think a clearer ruling would be looking at prc prequisites, if you gain levels in a prestige class you'd loose your abilities if you traded away your feats.
I could say that you could trade wolf-fang strike for a higher tiger claw manuever that requires one manuever known, and both sudden leap and the new manuever
could qualify for eachother. At least logically speaking, the manuever is difficult so you need the basics of the school in order to be able to perform the more complicated movement.

[Starmage21]

Spells work the same way as feats, in the pre-reqs.

If you have 19 INT, and can cast 9th level spells, and then take some INT damage, you cant cast 9th level spells anymore. You still have 9th level spell slots, but the only thing you can use em for is lower level spells with metamagic.

[Chronos]

I'm almost certain that ToB explicitly states that you only need to meet prerequisites at the time that you learn a maneuver, and that if you later lose the prerequisites it's no problem... but lots of luck finding that one rule hiding somewhere within the book's pages.

EDIT:

Quoth Nightraiderx:

I think a clearer ruling would be looking at prc prequisites,...
That might be a clearer ruling, if it were clear what happens to PrCs when you lose prerequisites. Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane have two different rules for what happens, and no other book has rules for it at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think a clearer ruling would be looking at prc prequisites, if you gain levels in a prestige class you'd loose your abilities if you traded away your feats.

That isn't actually a universal rule. Technically it only applies to PrC's from two books iirc (Complete Warrior and one other that I'm drawing a blank on). And since the DMG is the primary source for PrC rules and doesn't make such a statement, it does only apply to books that specifically state otherwise.