Scribing Scrolls/using scrolls and adding spells to a Tome Pact spellbook

[Socko525]

So in our most recent game a few questions regarding scrolls and adding spells to a Pact of the Tome spellbook.

How would a warlock add a Bard/Cleric/Druid/etc ritual to their spellbook? Copying spells from a Wizard spellbook makes sense, but what about from other classes? My party currently has a Tome Pact Warlock and he's curious about how he can learn ritual spells from the Cleric. Can the Cleric just "teach" it to him or does it need to be written down? Can it just be written on any old parchment?

If the spell needs to be an actual spell scroll, how does one go about making one? From what I can tell, the Cleric would have to spend the associated time and gold to create a magic item, just so the Warlock could learn the spell...is that how this was intended?

What are the requirements to use a scroll? Does it have to be on your spell list to use it? For instance, I play a Paladin and in our most recent game I found a scroll of Inflict Wounds. Since I'm a spellcaster, can I just use it or am I not able to?

I've combed through my books and can't seem to get any concrete answers on any of these. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Felvion]

I answer only for the warlock part as the paladin/scroll thing still confuses me a bit.

Having the cleric craft a scroll of the ritual and then let the warlock copy it down on his book is probably going to be ok. I suppose there should be no differences between that and the procedure proposed in the ritual caster feat.
On the other hand, if i were the dm i'd give them a chance to save both time and money as i think it's a bit weird to have the same spell copied twice. In case both sides are willing to share knowledge, i'd let the cleric help the warlock write down the spell in his book. Maybe it could take a bit more of a time (something like 50% more, declining if more rituals keep coming from the same source), since they have a different understanding of magic and because the warlock is not that familiar with divine symbols etc.
Note that willing to share is an important part of the deal. A tomelock may not allow anyone to cast eyes on his book.
A cleric of light could possibly find enough motivation to adventure along with the guy that made a pact with a fiend as long as they share goals, providing him knowledge of holy devine secrets is another story.
Even if there is no such a huge difference between them, is the cleric willing to give up spells that will be powered by a different source other than his god?

[Dalebert]

You can definitely learn them from scrolls. The spell has to be on yoru list to use a scroll but it technically is for a tome warlock if it's a ritual.

They've left this somewhat ambiguous and up to DM fiat. That said, this is something we discussed in our game. There are ritual casters via the feat, right? And you can be a clerical ritual caster or a druid ritual caster. Well, where do you learn these things? Presumably from actual clerics or druids. So it only seems reasonable to imagine that temples and druid circles potentially have access to tomes with such magical information in them, i.e. ritual books. Whether or not they will allow you access depends on complicated factors. A very holy temple of a good deity might be very concerned about who they allow access to such power. They might want you to prove your motives to them and then make a donation or just deny it altogether because you're not one of their clerics. A trickster deity temple, on the other hand, may just want a sizable donation to allow you to copy something. I imagine they'd be less concerned about the ramifications of their choices.

Something to consider.

[Myzz]

This is how I envision that scenario taking place:


Warlock: "Hey my friend, mighty Cleric of X. Can you teach me how you ritually Cast Detect Magic?"

Cleric: "Sure. I walk around in a circle, intoning my Goddess' name praising her name and beseaching that she grant me the ability to detect magic. i also give her offerings..."

Warlock: "umm... that's not how I cast rituals at all... But let's give it a try..."

after some time and no effect...

Cleric: "I guess Goddess X, just doesn't feel that you were sincere in the praises you laid upon her..."


Maybe this is why normally you need the spell on your spell list to cast spells from scrolls...

But as pointed out, some Deity may actually grant the warlock the ability... Not necessarily the one to which his Cleric friend belongs. Heck, his Patron might as well.

[Dalebert]

My first thought in response to that scenario is I would say that it takes some DM leeway to say you could just teach a warlock how to cast a spell simply because you know how to cast it (even ritually). The wording implies he has to "find" it and the process is described very similarly to how wizards get new spells for their spellbook, in fact it's almost verbatim similar wording. Therefore, I would expect it to have to be in written form.

That said, the warlock isn't casting the spell with the power of the cleric's deity. He's casting it with the power of whatever he has a pact with. Also, part of the process of a wizard scribing a new spell is translating it into his own personal version. That's why the first time he does it, it costs 50gp per level. Once he's done that hard part, he can make new copies much cheaper.

So reconsider that scenario again, only this time imagine the warlock is listening to the cleric appeal to his deity based on the things his deity values. Then he's thinking "Hmm... what would MY benefactor want me to say along those lines?" Maybe it takes some experimentation to get it straightened out, hence 50gp per level of the spell and 2 hours.

[archaeo]

I've combed through my books and can't seem to get any concrete answers on any of these.

I've looked too, and I don't see any answers either. It isn't even really clear that PCs have any way to create a durable copy of their spells outside of crafting scrolls; the Wizard can create duplicate spellbooks, but that seems to be about it.

I'm inclined to think that the game doesn't break in any fashion if you just let, say, a Cleric "teach" the ritual to the Warlock, provided the Warlock pay the gp fee for writing the spell in their tome. The only problem I see is that the Cleric technically "knows" all of the class' rituals, provided that they choose to prepare them.

I also don't see why a caster can't write down an exact description of how they cast a spell without scribing a magic scroll. It's one thing to create an object that, when read, casts a spell; it's another thing to create something that doesn't cast the spell but allows one to learn it.

But hey. Maybe this is the kind of thing that deserves errata (or at least a tweet at Mearls or Crawford), but it's also easy enough to just let Warlocks learn rituals by watching them performed.

[Myzz]

Theoretically... if the Cleric were to "help" the warlock, wouldnt that lower cast time and perhaps GP investment?

On a side note, I am actually thinking of making every Arcane Caster have to learn spells the old way... And use Arcana checks to learn it. Rather than just granting them. This would include: Wizards, Sorcerers, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knights, and Bards... <and Tome Locks>

But I'm a mean DM like that.

I would allow learning from scrolls, spell books, and seeing it cast. Although observation in combat would be tricky, and would likely require them to see it done, experiment, contemplation, and then see it again, followed by mastery through experimentation... Which would have a gp value similar to learning it from spellbook (special ink cost and materials fee). For learning new spells just by having witnessed them. I am thinking of putting some value like 1d4 per spell level + Spell Level unresistable psychic damage on failures. If in town then learning a new spell is quite easy, but if your trying between combats it becomes dangerous to do so...