kusari-gama

[j_spencer93]

I really like this weapon in real life, and am wondering if their is anyway to make a good build off of it?

[Nightraiderx]

Yes. Yes there is, there is stats on kusari-gama in DMG, they are a reach weapon that is one-handed but can be used to attack adjacent.
If you are talking about 3.5 builds, you can make a nasty AoO trip build using them. two-weapon fighting with improved trip is a viable tactic that allows you
some versatility with them. Pathfinder has better feats for the tripping, since you can stack dex twice when using them and greater trip works off of AoO.

Around what level are you looking to use them in? What system? 3.5 or Pathfinder or 3.X

[Psyren]

Pathfinder has better feats for the tripping, since you can stack dex twice when using them and greater trip works off of AoO.

You can't get Dex twice since the FAQ ruling but you can still make a nice kusarigama build since Ninjas get free proficiency. Personally I would go with double-chained kama instead though, as written it might count as light/light for TWF instead of 1H/light.

[Nightraiderx]

You can't get Dex twice since the FAQ ruling but you can still make a nice kusarigama build since Ninjas get free proficiency. Personally I would go with double-chained kama instead though, as written it might count as light/light for TWF instead of 1H/light.

Damn, really? sigh, Paizo and their "can't let mundanes have nice things" fear. I have an unarmed AoO tripper so at least I can grab the style that grants +4 to trip after hitting with an unarmed strike.

[Psyren]

You really don't need Dex twice to be effective, there are plenty of other bonus sources. You also get the weapon's own enhancement bonus since trip is performed using the weapon itself.

[j_spencer93]

um well we use 3.5/pathfinder (with DM judgement with overriding material, with me as DM), and this build would most likely be around 5. Nothing is prohibited except full casters which shouldnt be a problem. I originally thought of duskblade using one would be cool.
However i think oriental adventures has the best Kusari-gama, with its actually separate sides.
I am not experienced with tripping, disarming, etc builds as my players usually do not use them. How does tripping aid me?
All sources are avaliable, 3.0, 3.5, pathfinder, 3rd party, dragon/dungeon magazine.

[Ssalarn]

Damn, really? sigh, Paizo and their "can't let mundanes have nice things" fear. I have an unarmed AoO tripper so at least I can grab the style that grants +4 to trip after hitting with an unarmed strike.

Kusarigama ninja was actually the build that managed to outdamage our Stalker during the first Path of War playtest; Combat Reflexes, reach, Improved Trip line, invisibility abilities... It was wicked solid, even without stat stacking.

[Psyren]

um well we use 3.5/pathfinder (with DM judgement with overriding material, with me as DM), and this build would most likely be around 5. Nothing is prohibited except full casters which shouldnt be a problem. I originally thought of duskblade using one would be cool.
However i think oriental adventures has the best Kusari-gama, with its actually separate sides.
I am not experienced with tripping, disarming, etc builds as my players usually do not use them. How does tripping aid me?
All sources are avaliable, 3.0, 3.5, pathfinder, 3rd party, dragon/dungeon magazine.

Which system's trip rules are you using? There were some key changes between 3.5 and PF.

[j_spencer93]

good question, forgot to explain that part. We use 3.5's rules, just replacing PF whenever mentioned with WOTC rules.
I wll be honest, a ninja using one would defiantly feed my manga/anime/oriental geek side lol

[Nightraiderx]

Yea that depends on the trip rules, size bonuses in 3.5 make trip more difficult to use on larger monsters (larger size, arbitrary bonus)
that PF mitigated and halved the size advantage. I just like being thorough with trip, but you have a point about the magic weapon bonuses
there's also the trip enhancement for a bonus.

Ninjas are underrated at times, I have a tristalt style monk/stalker/brawler that's really fun to use since stalker can access ninja tricks.

[Ssalarn]

Yea that depends on the trip rules, size bonuses in 3.5 make trip more difficult to use on larger monsters (larger size, arbitrary bonus)
that PF mitigated and halved the size advantage. I just like being thorough with trip, but you have a point about the magic weapon bonuses
there's also the trip enhancement for a bonus.

Ninjas are underrated at times, I have a tristalt style monk/stalker/brawler that's really fun to use since stalker can access ninja tricks.

Ninja gets dismissed a lot because it's a Rogue alternate class and the 3.5 ninja was terrible, but it's actually really, really solid. Onispawn STR ninja is one of the cooler builds I've seen in play, and you can generally pull off a lot of hurt.


***I am not experienced with tripping, disarming, etc builds as my players usually do not use them. How does tripping aid me?
All sources are avaliable, 3.0, 3.5, pathfinder, 3rd party, dragon/dungeon magazine.


Disarm builds are even less reliable than trip builds since even appropriately sized critters will often have natural weapons, or unarmed strikes, or some other alternative, but they're great when they work; sending your enemy's weapon(s) flying 15 feet away across the battlefield can completely change the course of a fight. Plus, sometimes you get to use the enemy's own cool weapon as a result :smallbiggrin:
Disarm is an option I really like the Brawler for, since he can use Martial Flexibility to sub it in when it's useful, but not waste permanent resources on it.

[j_spencer93]

ok really like the weapon, disarm/trip idea.
for one a kusari disarming a target is what they were half meant to do, secondly throwing it 15ft would allow me an atk of op if they went to retrieve it meaning it serves two functions.
Now i just need a decent build. I like stalker but until i find out if my players will be using Path of War/Tome of battle, i will have to hold off on that class.

As for the weapon, i am using the oriental adventures version. isnt there some way as a monk to get concealment went not in day light? would fit this idea greatly

[Azura Vash]

New guy here but if you move more than 5ft in a round in threat range of the ninja is this a AoO
Example Ninja has a threat range of 10ft the enemy runs right up to the ninja dose that provoke a AoO

[Solaris]

Ghost-faced orcs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/orcs/orc-ghost-faced) get invisibility in shadows.

[Ssalarn]

New guy here but if you move more than 5ft in a round in threat range of the ninja is this a AoO
Example Ninja has a threat range of 10ft the enemy runs right up to the ninja dose that provoke a AoO

Generally yes. It's one of the reasons kusarigama ninja can be really good; you can use vanishign trick and then place yourself in an area where enemy movement is likely to provoke and take your first AoO against them while they're flat-footed for sneak attack sneak attack damage, or a much higher chance to successfully trip, stop their movement, and make them prone (making it easier to get a free and potentially sneak-enhanced attack on them as they stand back up).

[j_spencer93]

Ssalarn that is exactly what i am looking for. Those kinda tricks would be awesome at controlling the battle field.

[j_spencer93]

So i am going to use Ninja, with a Kusari-Gama.
Focusing on trip and disarming.

And specific enchantments, PRCs, items to further increase it?

[Ssalarn]

So i am going to use Ninja, with a Kusari-Gama.
Focusing on trip and disarming.

And specific enchantments, PRCs, items to further increase it?

Dueling is a decent enchantment for disarm builds, and has the added benefit of increasing your initiative.

Dipping a couple levels of Lore Warden for extra feats and a CMB boost doesn't hurt either.

[j_spencer93]

ok thanks, all good ideas. what about any of the ninja specific PRC's, any of those any good? what about weapon master (or whatever its called? also isnt their an exotic weapon master or something).
Exotic weapon master and kenshin.

[Psyren]

For both Ninjas they are pointless because none of them advance ki, but PF especially since you're also giving up on FCBs and Tricks.

[j_spencer93]

ok noticed 3.5 has a ninja, as does PF, as does oriental adventures/rokugan...which is the best?
Rokugan has alot of decent support for the ninja which is nice.

[Ssalarn]

ok noticed 3.5 has a ninja, as does PF, as does oriental adventures/rokugan...which is the best?
Rokugan has alot of decent support for the ninja which is nice.

Definitely not the 3.5 ninja. Pathfinder ninja is solid (and what I was thinking of in posts up to this point). I'm less familiar with the Oriental Adventures ninja, so someone else would probably need to speak to that.

[j_spencer93]

Oriental Adventures is pretty close to 3.5 but gets gets sneak attack instead of sudden strike, and a thing called ninja dodge

[Ssalarn]

Oriental Adventures is pretty close to 3.5 but gets gets sneak attack instead of sudden strike, and a thing called ninja dodge

I'd probably go with Pathfinder ninja then. Vanishing Trick is a really big deal, and they have some other really good ki abilities they can access that should give them a leg up.

[j_spencer93]

ah ok. will make a note of that. Go would ghost faced killer be worth a dip or not? i think its an ok (not great) PRC.

[Ssalarn]

ah ok. will make a note of that. Go would ghost faced killer be worth a dip or not? i think its an ok (not great) PRC.

I wouldn't bother. It delays your ki pool and GFK's main ability's DC is based off your class levels in GFK, meaning you don't want to go in if you're not going to go all the way. Other than possibly the Lore Warden dip for the extra feats and CMB boost, I'd go straight PF ninja all the way. If you do something like a STR ninja build using non-AC defenses, you really don't even need the Lore Warden dip.

[j_spencer93]

mmm ok. Well i am making this as an NPC while working on so many other builds i would appreciate a rough build please. Would make it so much easier for me at the moment.

[j_spencer93]

so play likes the ranged trip/disarm idea, and wants to aid poison into the mix. does it enhance the build in a meaningful way?

[Twurps]

However i think oriental adventures has the best Kusari-gama, with its actually separate sides.


I like the fluff of the Oriental adventures over the DMG one. Mechanically however, the DMG one is superior.
OA version: you can choose between having reach (holding 1 end in two hands), or using it as a double weapon, but losing reach.
DMG: it's a light weapon with reach, Get two of them, and have both two weapon fighting, and reach.

I just refluff my 2 DMG kusari gama's to look like 1 OA one, and have the best of both worlds.

I don't play PF, so can only comment on a 3.5 tripper but feats I like at early levels are:
-Combat reflexes (combined with reach for a lot of attacks each round)
-Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, double hit. (to bring in your off hand on AoO's)
-improved trip (obvious)

It's feat intesive to be a good tripper, so fighter levels help. Also: a Wolf totem barbarian can get Improved trip for free at lvl 2. Combines well with a Goliath's mountain rage (if using LA buy off)

early build might look something like this:
Goliath(Races of stone):
1: Wolf totem barbarian, mountain rage ACF (Ros) (lvl 1: exotic weapon prof: kusari gama)
2: Barbarian (bonus: Improved trip)
3: Fighter1 (fighter feat: combat reflexes, lvl3: deft opportunist(CA))
4: Fighter2 (fighter feat: Two weapon fighting)
5: Fighter3
6: Fighter4 (fighter feat: Improved TWF, lvl6: Double hit(MH))

you can add stuff like 'defensive sweep' and 'robilars gambit' if you get to later levels to make sure you get to attack your enemies no matter what they do.

[j_spencer93]

honestly i just combined them, since neither actually really represents the weapon right. for one even when used as a double weapon the thing in real life had a far greater reach then a sword, so it D&D that should have made it a reach weapon but for whatever reason they didn't. Also you used the weight more but D&D seems to think you use the sickle.

[Coidzor]

They're pretty good for a reach TWF build, I suppose, given that they're about the only option for a reach TWF build in 3.5.

[j_spencer93]

i guess that is true, never really thought of it before.

[WeaselGuy]

Recommended Reading... (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2823.0)

This handbook helped me out a lot when I was building my Shuriken Master, and it details the Rokugan Ninja, and compares it to the CAdv Ninja. I went with Rokugan for the better BAB, among other things, and then went into Ninja Spy for more ninja goodness... good luck :D

[j_spencer93]

thanks that looks handy