bringing down griffon-riders?

[Zirconia]

In the scenario we are in, we are 6th level and trying to set a trap for a group of 2-5 griffon-riding barbarians who will be scouting for an army. They are not particularly optimized, and probably not even 6th level themselves, so I'm not worried about beating them, but our only source of magic is one human wizard/barbarian gestalt with up to 3rd level spells. Assume any wizard spell is available, any printed source, but obscure splatbooks or dragon magazine will need to be cleared with the DM. Assume the other three members of the group are straight human fighters, nothing special about their builds, with some extra NPC human barbarians we can recruit, no other magic available to *either* side in this region. Terrain is a mix of plains and forests.

Our goal is to capture the griffons so we can do aerial scouting ourselves, so we were thinking of luring them down with some "helpless peasants" since they are known to attack such, our challenge is to make sure we (1) land the griffons without killing them, and (2) don't let any of them get away to report back to the army. Web is a possibility if we can get them low between some trees, but they may not all land at once. Charm person could work on riders, but is kind of short range. Fly is too slow to catch them (Griffons flight speed is 80'), even with Haste.

So, I'm looking for other ideas on how to reliably nab the scouts with Wizard spells up to 3rd level. They would not be expecting magic, but might be slightly familiar with it.

[Psyren]

Force them to land. There are several ways you can do this:

1) Set bait and wait indoors (or under cover, like a canopy) until they come close enough to check it out.
2) Shoot at them from indoors or under cover so they are forced to land and engage.
3) In 3.5, you can cause winged flying creatures to stall by tripping them. You can do this with a spell like animate rope, or a long tripping weapon like a whip.
4) In Pathfinder, any damage you do will force a Fly check to stay in the air. This includes nonlethal, so just pound them with nonlethal damage. Either they might fail eventually, or you'll knock them out and they'll fail to maintain their minimum forward speed and plummet to earth. They'll be a big banged up but as long as they weren't too high up they should survive.
5) Incapacitate them some other way - deep slumber, confusion, glitterdust etc.

[Baroknik]

A sudden maximized Shivering Touch would do it, but that's not ideal since it would be 1 griffon/spell slot. I'd look into the aforementioned glitter dust, especially if you can sculpt spell it.

If you can get them below the canopy, web is still stupidly powerful as a save-and-still-suck spell.

Deep Slumber might work, but it's an expensive spell slot since it will probably only hit one rider/mount.

Use Suggestion on the griffons to let them ride you mid-battle. Still 1 lvl 3 slot/rider, but could be effective since it would get you saddled as well.

Color Spray only takes a level 1 spell slot and any griffon that fails its will save is stunned for one round, which means it drops.

[Zirconia]

Sorry, forgot to specify D&D 3.0/3.5, not Pathfinder. Thanks for the ideas!

I hadn't been aware tripping would cause a stall, or that you could trip a flying creature, where are the rules for that?

I was contemplating thrown nets, but they only reduce to half speed, which doesn't cause a stall, or bolos, but I'm not clear how the opposed Str check works for ranged (touch?) attack bolos.

I am hoping to get at least some of them under the canopy and into a Web with the helpless peasants lure, but if they aren't flying in close formation it could be hard to get all of them, and the DM is wilely enough to maybe have at least one stay up in the air while the others land. The wizard/barbarian has not focused on metamagic, so no sudden maximized or sculpted anything unfortunately.

Glitterdust is awesome, I use it all the time, but how would it bring them down? They can still keep moving even blinded, admittedly at half speed, but that is enough to keep from stalling while flying. I'd have to stack it with something like a net, so maybe Glitterdust to slow them, Fly to catch them now that they are slow enough to do so, net to stall them. One successful save, though, and I have a hard time catching any of them who stay in the air.

Deep Slumber is interesting, I wish it was longer range, it might be more efficient just to use Charm Person on the rider and convince them to guide the griffon to the ground.

On the bright side, I hadn't realized how many hit points a Griffon has, the average Griffon has at least a 50% chance of surviving a fall from any distance since damage caps at 20d6. I'd like to capture all of them, but there are at least some options other than Charm or Suggestion.

[Sian]

Earthbind from Spell Compendium seems like its just what you're looking for ... Save or loose all fly speed, falling as if under the influence of Featherfall

[Telonius]

Depending on how close you can get to the griffon riders, Mage Hand and (possibly) Ventriloquism could work for steering them to land.

[Calimehter]

Harpoons can be pretty handy for this. Its been a while since I used one, but I remember them being pretty effective if you had a good enough STR value to win the opposed checks. I used the Arms and Equipment Guide version - I don't know what the 3.5 update did to them (its in Frostburn, I think??)

I'm away from my books to check the specific rules but. . . would Tanglefoot bags do any good?

[Sian]

I'm away from my books to check the specific rules but. . . would Tanglefoot bags do any good?

DC 15 Reflex save, but it needs a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10ft

[Telonius]

Griffons are large, so a Tanglefoot bag would affect them. The good news there is that it's touch AC - Griffons have a pretty lousy one at 11. They'd get a -4 to their Dex from the bag, meaning a -2 to the Reflex save, giving them only a +5. So with a sixth-level fighter, depending on your dexterity and the distance, you're probably looking at a 50% or so chance of hitting it, and they'd have just a little bit over 50% chance of a successful save.

[Hobosub]

You could try to force them down with a Great Thunderclap from Spell Compendium.
3rd lvl sor/wiz evocation.
Medium range 20ft radius will save vs stun and a separate reflex save vs knocked prone.

Usually things can't fly when stunned...

EDIT: specified saves

[Zirconia]

Earthbind from Spell Compendium seems like its just what you're looking for ... Save or loose all fly speed, falling as if under the influence of Featherfall

Specialized, but it does look nice, has decent range at least, and grounding fliers could be handy in fights going forward, there are a lot of flying foes with better flight than Fly.

The other thing I'm considering is trying to use an Illusion of a Dragon to herd any escaping Griffons back my way, since the Image spells have Long (400' plus) range. That could be a backup tactic if one gets away.

[Psyren]

I hadn't been aware tripping would cause a stall, or that you could trip a flying creature, where are the rules for that?

Rules Compendium pg. 145. I think there's an online article with them as well.


I was contemplating thrown nets, but they only reduce to half speed, which doesn't cause a stall, or bolos, but I'm not clear how the opposed Str check works for ranged (touch?) attack bolos.

It might - remember, anything that keeps them from maintaining minimum forward speed will do the trick. Nets alone may not, but Net + glitterdust might.



On the bright side, I hadn't realized how many hit points a Griffon has, the average Griffon has at least a 50% chance of surviving a fall from any distance since damage caps at 20d6. I'd like to capture all of them, but there are at least some options other than Charm or Suggestion.

You can always prepare the ground first too - a deadfall like a pile of leaves for instance. If they have a soft landing, less chance of them dying.

[Jack_Simth]

Griffons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/griffon.htm) are Large. Lure them into a cave complex where the griffons will be left outside by their riders. This requires gathering a little bit of intel about the barbarians, of course, but there's going to be something they'll chase after. For instance, if the riders are acting as bandits in the area, then a rich-looking merchant with few guards might do the job... of course, he'll need to be close enough to the cave complex to actually reach it when the riders are spotted, and whatever cargo he's carrying will need to be small enough that he could have conceivably grabbed it while fleeing (gem merchant, say). Then just ambush the temporarily-landbound barbarians in your prepared cave.

But the trick is to make it seem like a good idea for them to dismount and follow you to a prepared spot. No need to worry about the griffons' health if they're properly dismounted.

Do be warned, though: Griffons are intelligent critters. You'll also need to deal with why they're serving the barbarians, and why they should serve you.

[deuxhero]

A very important note about tanglefoot bags in 3.5: It does not matter if they beat the reflex save. A tanglefoot bag will always half a target's speed on a successful hit. This means if they can't hover (Griffons can not) they have to fly perfectly straight to avoid stalling.

[Rebel7284]

If you can procure a lesser rod of Maximize, a single ray of stupidity will drop a griffin, no save. Slow+Haste may help to prevent escape.

[Bronk]

Pretty much anything that deals strength damage should bring down a griffon with a rider.

Average griffons are large but weak, and the monster manual states that creatures can only fly with a light load. With a strength of only 18, even with their x3 modifier for being a large quadruped, their carrying capacity shows their light load as only being up to 300lbs. I don't know how heavy their barbarian riders are, but I'd imagine they're big burly types with armor and weapons, and the griffon might be wearing armor as well. If they aren't already over 300lbs, they're close.

The first level spell 'ray of enfeeblement' cast by your 3rd level wizard would do a minimum of 2 strength damage to the griffon, knocking the griffon's light load limit to 228lbs, and they should fall right out of the sky.

Just make sure the griffons aren't carrying barbarian halflings!

[Zirconia]

Do be warned, though: Griffons are intelligent critters. You'll also need to deal with why they're serving the barbarians, and why they should serve you.

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that, when I saw Int of 5 I didn't think "Intelligent". The monster entry is sort of silent on why an intelligent griffon would want to serve as a mount for anyone, interestingly, so I guess the DM will have to come up with something. That does complicate things a bit, if I Charm the rider, or do Baleful Transposition to be riding the Griffon, will it obey commands or just fly off itself? Is 5 Int enough to recognize it shouldn't obey its rider?

On the bright side, since the Griffons understand Common, that opens up the possibility to use Suggestion directly on the mount.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that, when I saw Int of 5 I didn't think "Intelligent". The monster entry is sort of silent on why an intelligent griffon would want to serve as a mount for anyone, interestingly, so I guess the DM will have to come up with something. That does complicate things a bit, if I Charm the rider, or do Baleful Transposition to be riding the Griffon, will it obey commands or just fly off itself? Is 5 Int enough to recognize it shouldn't obey its rider?

On the bright side, since the Griffons understand Common, that opens up the possibility to use Suggestion directly on the mount.

Everyone has their own takes on what, exactly, each Int score means. I'd be inclined to treat them as... about as smart as my six year old nephew, probably. Mind you, the personality is what would make all the difference, not specific intelligence.

Of course, as they are intelligent, that does open the possibility of tricking the griffons separately from the riders....

The rules list what it takes to make a Griffon bear you willingly: "To be trained, a griffon must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check)". Per the standard Diplomacy skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm), if they start out as "Indifferent", it's DC 15. Unfriendly: DC 25. Hostile it's DC 35. Given that they're apparently aiding people in attacking you, you may have some problems with the check - especially if you're in a hurry.