feral barbarian question

[j_spencer93]

ok, have a player who usually likes big hulking brutes. and this campaign i decided i am waving all LA. However, if he picks a minotaur barbarian (he likes it), he always wants a feral template ontop of that. would that causes an op problem with a duskblade, and a stalker/swashbuckler?

[Urpriest]

If the other players are also grabbing free templates, I don't see why not.

[Caylin]

If all LA is free and one player picks half minotaur and feral (2 very powerful LA 1 templates) and the others don´t pick any then yes you will likely see disparity between the players. Especially since they are low on casting so don´t have a huge tier advantage the barbarian needs to offset.

[Red Fel]

ok, have a player who usually likes big hulking brutes. and this campaign i decided i am waving all LA. However, if he picks a minotaur barbarian (he likes it), he always wants a feral template ontop of that. would that causes an op problem with a duskblade, and a stalker/swashbuckler?

Echoing what Urpriest said - if everyone gets free templates, he shouldn't be substantially more OP than any other player.

Note also that many of the abilities included in the 3.0 Feral template are based on racial HD, not overall levels or LA; a 3.5 Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) has 6 HD, as does a PF Minotaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/minotaur). That means you get Improved Grab, Pounce, Darkvision 60, and Fast Healing 3. Useful, particularly Pounce, but not gamebreaking. (Particularly since he could have gotten Pounce from an ACF.) So keep that in mind as well.

[j_spencer93]

ok i was not aware it was about racial HD actually. Anyways ok, so he should appear to be physically to powerful...not he isnt the best player, sometimes he overlooks the obvious choice. now i am not sure this is what he will be going for but just a guess.

[Necroticplague]

Echoing what Urpriest said - if everyone gets free templates, he shouldn't be substantially more OP than any other player.

Note also that many of the abilities included in the 3.0 Feral template are based on racial HD, not overall levels or LA; a 3.5 Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm) has 6 HD, as does a PF Minotaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/minotaur). That means you get Improved Grab, Pounce, Darkvision 60, and Fast Healing 3. Useful, particularly Pounce, but not gamebreaking. (Particularly since he could have gotten Pounce from an ACF.) So keep that in mind as well.

Not quite correct. The special qualities (fast healing and darkvision) simply scale with HD, while the special attacks (rend, weaker pounce, improved grab, and something else I forget) scale with 'monster HD', usually interpreted as 'RHD'.

Related note is the pounce that Feral gives isn't the full thing, it only works on the first round of combat (and maybe only for claws, my memory is somewhat fuzzy).

More relevant to the OP: as long as the other players are also picking up an equivalent amount of free templates, there shouldn't be any big issue. At best, Feral just makes you a bit more tanky, but offers practically no utility (closest thing is speed increase, darkvision, and fast healing, but even those are pretty combat-related).

[j_spencer93]

Its a tournament based campaign so battle abilities are actually good.

[Necroticplague]

Its a tournament based campaign so battle abilities are actually good.

Ah, I've used Feral in a campaign like that. Heck, even threw in mineralized warrior and lolth-touched to boot.

The character was a useless pile of numbers who constantly got trounced by people with actual abilities. First round, a pixie slowly pinged me to death with a wand of magic missile, I choked the second to death, third poisoned me before I could reach after slowing my progression towards melee, the fourth knocked me unconscious with Ray of Stupidity before slowly burning me to death (related to the int penalty from feral). Even in a tournament fight, abilities are better than sheer numbers, which is all feral gives you.

[j_spencer93]

lol ya i meant to his dmg output with a weapon. but ya, abilities will outclass him easily IF i had LA. however, as a race with free feral would it increases a level 1 barbarian far beyond his allies? or really in only his strength?

[Red Fel]

lol ya i meant to his dmg output with a weapon. but ya, abilities will outclass him easily IF i had LA. however, as a race with free feral would it increases a level 1 barbarian far beyond his allies? or really in only his strength?

The point that Necrotic is making, with which I agree, is that Feral is a nice bonus on a melee chassis, but it doesn't actually make you better at anything except melee; if you never make it into melee combat, it does almost nothing for you other than give you some extra HP and AC to soak one or two more hits. The abilities, like Pounce and Improved Grab, are useful, but again dependent upon getting into melee.

Contrast that with a template like Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur, which give a size increase; Unseelie Fey or Half-Fey, which grant flight plus some special powers; or Primordial Giant, which grants SLAs, class skills, and boosts to casting stats.

At first blush, Feral seems really useful, but it only really helps a character who's about to be knee-deep in melee.

[j_spencer93]

Maybe i didnt say it right, idk, lol. I got his point and agree 100%. But the player usuallly does nothing more then charge in and smash as a barbarian. btw love the fey templates and the half-minotaur lol.
could be be a half-minotaur feral minotaur? lol

[Red Fel]

Maybe i didnt say it right, idk, lol. I got his point and agree 100%. But the player usuallly does nothing more then charge in and smash as a barbarian. btw love the fey templates and the half-minotaur lol.
could be be a half-minotaur feral minotaur? lol

I'm honestly not sure that I'd allow a half-Minotaur Minotaur, particularly because a lot of the template is already there (e.g. the large size, Scent, gore attack, and skill bonuses). But also because that's just kind of stretching it, even by my admittedly permissive standards. (What's next, a Half-Dragon Dragon? "What's the other half?" "A different dragon.")

The point is that if the PC is able to consistently charge in and smash, he'll be happy. Feral lets him do the thing, and numerically speaking he will be doing it better with Feral than without. It's just that it won't be OP, because Feral doesn't really help him do anything other than that one specific thing. Anyone who has taken a more diverse or multi-purpose race or template combination will be able to run (or fly) circles around him, in terms of utility and power.

Will Feral make him better at the charge-barian? Almost strictly yes. Will it make him OP? Not hardly.

[j_spencer93]

thank you Red Fel, that is exactly what i needed to know lol. And was mostly a joke. Actually have had something odd like that before just cant remember what off the top of my head...thinking maybe a half-fiend fiendish something with the fiend bloodline.