Synthesist; help me pick an another first level spel

[Yanisa]

Heya, I got a bit of trouble picking a spell and I hope you guys can help me decide.

A bit of information: I am playing a synthesist, being front line melee and so far I picked 2 buff spells (Mage Armor and Protection from Evil.) and self healing due lack of healers in the party (Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon). I just reached level 3 and now got another 1st level spell... and I have no clue what to choose. The campaign so far is general undead themed, with a few humanoid cultist. The rest of the party consist of an zen archer and 2 (mind)control themed arcane casters (but one of them is a bit more blasty, the other is going to craft). Although I am both tank and main damage dealer, my eidolon is fey based and in general I am going for fluff over power.

Spells I am considering and reasons why I want them but doubts.
Endure Elements Fits my character personality, my DM is asking us to wear winter outfits in the winter and my character ain't the type to do that... Does cost a permanent spell slot to keep up each day. Doesn't seem to e the best use of limited slots when I can wear clothing.
Long Arm; Reach is good, but it only works for arms and not all my attacks. I do have two claws so it's better then the evolution, but not all attacks. It is also dubious if it works when I have two pairs of arms, but then again not planning to go multi armed any time soon.
Magic Fang; It's okay.. but only one attack barely seems worth it
Reduce Person; Fits my characters lore, fey's are smaller rather then larger. But the most interesting: there is no mention that natural attacks get reduced in damage (and you can say that my natural attacks are magical due synthesist) but thats a bit too exploity for my taste. Not sure if the defense is worth it when my damage does get reduced.
Shield; +4 shield is nice, but I quickly get +2 shield due being synthesist and at high level this one gets outdated.

Good spells I am pretty sure I don't want:
Grease; I am avoiding crowd control, thats the arcane casters job, even if they preform poorly.
Enlarge Person; It doesn't fit my characters personality, fey's are small rather then large.
Summon Monster I; Again crowd control is for the arcane casters, also I feel content to be 100% synthesist and 0% summoning.

Sooo... can any of you guys help me picking? Or perhaps you know a spell I haven't considered? Or maybe one of my preconceptions is wrong and I misjudged a spell?

[(Un)Inspired]

If the arcane casters aren't casting grease why don't you cast it?

It's a good fit for a mischievous fey, it's a great spell and there's no need to compartmentalize each PC into combat "jobs".

[NightbringerGGZ]

Crowd Control is one of the things the Summoner spell list excels at, so you might not want to avoid those spells. Personally, I'd go with Grease. It's decent CC and you can always set the grease on fire to deal with undead.

[Psyren]

But the most interesting: there is no mention that natural attacks get reduced in damage (and you can say that my natural attacks are magical due synthesist) but thats a bit too exploity for my taste.

"Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage."

That line is not restricted to manufactured weapons, therefore natural weapons are affected too, because they are weapons.

However, what race are you? If you're already small, Reduce could be useful since it will make you Tiny and you can therefore slip through cracks or sneak around or share an ally's space or the like. If you're medium I wouldn't bother with it.


If the arcane casters aren't casting grease why don't you cast it?

It's a good fit for a mischievous fey, it's a great spell and there's no need to compartmentalize each PC into combat "jobs".

Well it has a save in PF so if he(she?) isn't specced with high Cha there is reason to skip it on a gish.

[Barstro]

Crowd Control is one of the things the Summoner spell list excels at,

True, but Synthesist loses all the economy of action that makes Summoner so great.

I am basing this off the assumption that you are the main melee and not fighting for a round or two would typically be bad. If you are only support, then please ignore my advice as it may not be as applicable.

You should still with spells that;
1) Can be cast out of combat to be useful (utility spells or hours (maybe minutes) per level), or
2) Fill an emergency need.

You already took Mage Armor (which might not even be useful later on). I expect you to be a melee brute who is susceptible to ranged attacks. For that reason, I suggest Shield as an emergency boost to AC. You may also want to talk with your casters to see what they are getting. No reason to get spells that they can use for an effectively lower cost. Enlarge/Reduce might be good, but that really depends on how your DM rules that it works on Synthesists. Last I checked (a long time ago) there was no ruling how it exactly works.

As for Endure Elements; pay for a caster to get the spell and pay 1,000 gp for a Level-1 Pearl of Power for said caster. That's just as good as you casting it yourself, but you get to choose a different spell for your list.

[Yanisa]

@Grease
The general reason I don't want grease is because it's not my party role. It's a good spell but I do expect our arcane casters wizen up and pick some crowd control spells to deal with undead this level. Grease does make a great emergency spell and I can see it used whenever I cannot charge or strike. Still is that worth a limited spell known? I also have 4 spells per day and those quickly go up in buffs and self healing, so it's rare to have a daily use over for an emergency.


"Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage."

That line is not restricted to manufactured weapons, therefore natural weapons are affected too, because they are weapons.
Ah yeah, I see, but it does read an awful lot like that. I bet I convince my rule lawyer of it. :smallamused:


However, what race are you? If you're already small, Reduce could be useful since it will make you Tiny and you can therefore slip through cracks or sneak around or share an ally's space or the like. If you're medium I wouldn't bother with it.
Half-Elf, so its medium to small.


True, but Synthesist loses all the economy of action that makes Summoner so great.

I am basing this off the assumption that you are the main melee and not fighting for a round or two would typically be bad. If you are only support, then please ignore my advice as it may not be as applicable.

At the moment I am carrying the party, being tank, main damage dealer and savior of many combats. :smalltongue: The other character need some levels before they can do their thing. But I will stay being the front line damage dealer and accidental tank.


You already took Mage Armor (which might not even be useful later on). I expect you to be a melee brute who is susceptible to ranged attacks. For that reason, I suggest Shield as an emergency boost to AC. You may also want to talk with your casters to see what they are getting. No reason to get spells that they can use for an effectively lower cost. Enlarge/Reduce might be good, but that really depends on how your DM rules that it works on Synthesists. Last I checked (a long time ago) there was no ruling how it exactly works.
The day I need to say goodbye to Mage Armor is far in the future. Shield loses half its potency next level (because I get +2 shield armor when I am in synthesist form at level 4). Besides I already have 21 AC buffed* and 20% miss chance... do I need more AC?
Shield does get bonus points because we fight a lot of incorporeal and touch is a really weak AC of mine.

*Thats 15 unbuffed + 4 mage armor + 2 prot from evil. Next level I am looking at 17 unbuffed, and the level after 20 unbuffed, without effort.


As for Endure Elements; pay for a caster to get the spell and pay 1,000 gp for a Level-1 Pearl of Power for said caster. That's just as good as you casting it yourself, but you get to choose a different spell for your list.
Sadly, even though we have 2 arcane casters, one is a sorcerer and faces the same limits spell slots and the other is a word of power wizard, which has vastly different spells. I'm not even sure if he can produce a 24 hour Endure Elements. NPCs are out of the question.

[Psyren]

Ah yeah, I see, but it does read an awful lot like that. I bet I convince my rule lawyer of it. :smallamused:

If he falls for that one he's not a very good lawyer :smalltongue:



Half-Elf, so its medium to small.

Why not Enlarge Person then? Seems like you have a lot of AC so you can afford to lose some, and you gain reach with all your weapons, hit harder etc

[Yanisa]

Why not Enlarge Person then? Seems like you have a lot of AC so you can afford to lose some, and you gain reach with all your weapons, hit harder etc
A problem with Enlarge I haven't said is that we fight in a lot of small cramped rooms and corridors. Enlarge is going to be really situational, not something in every battle. Perhaps later that will change, but for now we are hunting necromancers in old abandoned ruins and secret tunnels.

And the fluff reason that fey are more small then large, I wanted to avoid larger then medium (yes also the evolutions) unless I really started to fall behind on damage/effectiveness, because it isn't the image I had of my character. :smalltongue:

Again a good suggestion but it just doesn't click. Maybe I'm being too picky?

[Psyren]

Well, being Large in a small room isn't bad actually - it means most of the baddies will provoke trying to get by you, plus you can give your allies cover from ranged attacks more easily. Plus you can dismiss it as needed.

Magic Fang might be a good idea - if you're up against necromancers, they could end up sending something incorporeal after you (it sounds like you're worried about that possibility anyway, because of how you were rating mage armor) and if so you will want to be able to hurt it.

[NightbringerGGZ]

A problem with Enlarge I haven't said is that we fight in a lot of small cramped rooms and corridors. Enlarge is going to be really situational, not something in every battle. Perhaps later that will change, but for now we are hunting necromancers in old abandoned ruins and secret tunnels.

And the fluff reason that fey are more small then large, I wanted to avoid larger then medium (yes also the evolutions) unless I really started to fall behind on damage/effectiveness, because it isn't the image I had of my character. :smalltongue:

Again a good suggestion but it just doesn't click. Maybe I'm being too picky?

I can't help you with the fluff although while pixies and fairies might be rather small, I'm pretty sure there are stories and representations of some of the darker fey being larger sized. As for the issue with cramped corridors, so long as you have an area 2 squares wide you're good to go. Better even since you force the enemies to funnel to you. Really narrow areas (smaller than your size) can still be moved through by using the Squeeze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Squeezing)rules!

[Spore]

Expeditious Retreat. You do not have flight for at least two levels and then it's still reliant on your Flyskill or pretty expensive (as magic flight goes). Fey are known to be swift.
Blurred Movement. Possibly terrible with many attacks but if you have built towards a single heavy attack this is your hit&run buff.

[Yanisa]

I'm going to nitpick one more time. I do value your opinions, even if I am just shooting them down. It also helped me with thinking about other things, like thinking more of what type of fey-like creature my eidolon is and how she looks. :smalltongue:


Well, being Large in a small room isn't bad actually - it means most of the baddies will provoke trying to get by you, plus you can give your allies cover from ranged attacks more easily. Plus you can dismiss it as needed.

I can't help you with the fluff although while pixies and fairies might be rather small, I'm pretty sure there are stories and representations of some of the darker fey being larger sized. As for the issue with cramped corridors, so long as you have an area 2 squares wide you're good to go. Better even since you force the enemies to funnel to you. Really narrow areas (smaller than your size) can still be moved through by using the Squeeze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Squeezing)rules!
Hmm, yeah perhaps it can work. Although we have had some moments my 6 feet character bumped her head on 5 feet halls many rooms do offer enough size I guess. I am just worried about low roofs, do you still get all benefits when you can only grow 1/3 (6 to 8 feet) your size?



Magic Fang might be a good idea - if you're up against necromancers, they could end up sending something incorporeal after you (it sounds like you're worried about that possibility anyway, because of how you were rating mage armor) and if so you will want to be able to hurt it.
Next level I get Lesser Evolution Surge, which allows me to pick shadow form which grants ghost touch. Yes I hate them CR7 ghost at level 2 and the weird DM ghost obsession we currently see, but it's not a really good reason to pick Magic Fang. A lot of people seem to recommend it, even without ghosts, but the one attack really puts a bummer on it.


Expeditious Retreat. You do not have flight for at least two levels and then it's still reliant on your Flyskill or pretty expensive (as magic flight goes). Fey are known to be swift.
That was my first pick, but then I realized I get haste next level, and I think two movement spells is a bit much, especially if they don't stack and one offers a ton of side goodies. Expeditious Retreat does have the duration advantage... but that alone...?


Blurred Movement. Possibly terrible with many attacks but if you have built towards a single heavy attack this is your hit&run buff.
I already have 20% concealment (Shadow Blend) and concealment doesn't really stack.

[Psyren]

Err, if the ceilings are 5 ft then the humans, elves and nearly everybody else should be bumping their heads too, eidolon or no eidolon. I would bump my head on a 5ft. ceiling, muggle that I am. Did your DM really intend that?

[Yanisa]

Err, if the ceilings are 5 ft then the humans, elves and nearly everybody else should be bumping their heads too, eidolon or no eidolon. I would bump my head on a 5ft. ceiling, muggle that I am. Did your DM really intend that?

Well the tunnels might have been 6 feet rather then 5, I forgot, but yeah it is sort of intended as cramped secret tunnels, in which we spend 50% of our time. :smalltongue: Even normal roofs are low because the DM says that is normal in medieval times (he says most roofs are 6-9 feet high). I dunno and I normally didn't really care, except one case of squeezing while combat (which was a cool combat gimmick), it never has been a huge thing. The only reason I know roofs are low is because I am 6 feet and 4 inches, so it has been part of the scenery descriptions (you need to duck slightly to get trough).

[Anachronity]

Not all fey need to be small and dainty, although not a lot of them are large. I would get shield or grease if you really want to stay on-theme.

[Troacctid]

I don't know, Shield is just sooo bad to spend a whole action on. And Grease is just not very impactful, especially after getting nerfed in Pathfinder--again, not something a melee fighter should be using actions for. I'd rather just have something that isn't for combat at all. Like Summon Minor Monster if I need a few tiny minions on short notice, or Feather Fall so I never need to worry about gravity ever again.

[Spore]

Ventriloquism or Mount. For convenience or distraction tactics. Other than that you are fresh out of luck (and options).

[NightbringerGGZ]

Well, if you have a good CHA you could alway pick up Compel Hostility I guess. I'm not a fan of the spell overall, but it isn't the worst option on the list.

As for the "ceiling too low" issue, at some point in game design you have to start making compromises between aspects of "how good of a representation is this rule" and "how fun is this rule". When you have a situation where realism and fun are in conflict, you should go for fun. You also need to keep in mind that the 3.5 rule set doesn't handle 3 dimensions all that well. Areas you can walk through should generally be considered tall enough not impeded the tallest medium-sized PC. A large creature doesn't have to fill up the full cubic space, for instance horses are large but realistically could still take up a space only one cube wide for normal movement.

If your GM is having you face combats in a space that is exactly a 5ft cube then the entire party should be having trouble. After all, that's not enough space to swing a weapon or make the wild flailing gestures involved in spell casting (at least with my casters).

Now, don't feel that I'm pressuring you into taking Enlarge Humanoid. It doesn't fit the theme you have in mind for the character, and I'm all for sticking to fun themes. I just think the spell would be a useful one for damage dealing.

[Spore]

for instance horses are large but realistically could still take up a space only one cube wide for normal movement.


My DM said to me horses are 2x1 for him (and quadrupeds are 2 by 1 in the GiTP miniatures collection). I thought that was official and not a houserule.

[Troacctid]

I think it was official in 3.0 and changed in 3.5, with PF inheriting the 3.5 rule.

[Psyren]

Space is 10x10x10 for horses in PF, even though they are longer than they are wide. Remember that in combat, creatures are in constant motion, so even if you could feasibly take up a 10x5x5 area on dimensions alone, you will still need the squeezing rules to represent the loss in mobility that would result from attempting that.

[Yanisa]

As for the "ceiling too low" issue, at some point in game design you have to start making compromises between aspects of "how good of a representation is this rule" and "how fun is this rule". When you have a situation where realism and fun are in conflict, you should go for fun. You also need to keep in mind that the 3.5 rule set doesn't handle 3 dimensions all that well. Areas you can walk through should generally be considered tall enough not impeded the tallest medium-sized PC. A large creature doesn't have to fill up the full cubic space, for instance horses are large but realistically could still take up a space only one cube wide for normal movement.

If your GM is having you face combats in a space that is exactly a 5ft cube then the entire party should be having trouble. After all, that's not enough space to swing a weapon or make the wild flailing gestures involved in spell casting (at least with my casters).
Well so far it has only been setting, atmosphere, feeling rather then rules or limitations. My fear was that doubling in size would change that, but the horse argument is pretty decent. Horses on average don't get a lot larger then 6 feet (from a quick google, no horse expert here) which is the size of my character. Also Enlarge Person seems to imply the spell still works if you cannot reach maximum height. I also talked with one of my party members, the one that gets my character the most, and he also seems to agree on Enlarge Person. So yeah, so far my setting doubts.

As for the fluff, I can work with it. Especially the fact I won't always reach full height means there is some room for a clever way to explain the increased reach. I was thinking of something like that the spells makes my limbs more vine like, plants is another strong theme in my eidolon. Hm... *pondering*

Yeah Enlarge Person is a good spell and it would be a shame not to take it, I can roll with it. So everyone thanks for the suggestions, it was fun and helpful. :smallsmile:

[NightbringerGGZ]

Yeah Enlarge Person is a good spell and it would be a shame not to take it, I can roll with it. So everyone thanks for the suggestions, it was fun and helpful. :smallsmile:

No worries, that's what we're here for! I was going to suggest that you could say the spell increases your girth instead of your height, but your idea of sprouting a ton of vines which are used to deliver your attacks sounds much more fun. After all, you're applying the spell to your Eidolon suit which you get to choose the appearance of!

[Spore]

I also talked with one of my party members, the one that gets my character the most, and he also seems to agree on Enlarge Person. [...], plants is another strong theme in my eidolon.

Uhm, you play a plant themed fey and you have second thoughts about Enlarge Person? With the way "magical" plants attack and work you should have not problem fluffing and explaining why your eidolon grows. It's not enlarging, it's magically growing.