new campaign, new character.. new doubts

[dehro]

After stumbling our way through a campaign that lasted a good 2 years of play, one of the players has taken on the mantle of DM and is launching a new campaign.
It's set in a Faerun-based world (not quite the same political/historical setting, but flavour-wise it's the same)
We start at 1st level and are 4-5 players (the fift one has yet to confirm)
All classes and races are allowed, on principle, within a LA of +2 for the races.
The DM has made it clear that he is not against unconventional/unusual races being played. As for classes, I reckon setting specific ones (eberron, to say one) would not fit very well, and probably be refused.
The game itself will be rather sandbox-y in nature, depending on the combination of our characters as a starting point... and doesn't really require a background to our characters
The DM doesn't seem to care much about them, but did say that if we don't write one we'd pretty much have to take what we got.. AFAIK him, he probably won't really bother much with them. I on the other hand do care about such things and will both write a BG and probably keep a journal like I did for the first character of the previous campaign.

My dice rolls gave the following result
11, 12, 10, 15, 18, 8

After having spent most of the previous campaign somehow always ending on the frontline no matter what I played, this time I would like to play an archery based character. Since we already have a barbarian, an arcane caster and a divine caster (no word yet on what the other guy would be playing, should he in fact join us), I would also cover a straight up skillmonkey/thief role, making tracks, traps, locks and similar nuissances my area of expertise.
The role of face of the party could really land on anyone at this stage, and that includes me.
I am thinking of eventually taking levels of scout or some other such combo, that is, assuming I survive through the first level/s.
I don't mind a degree of optimisation, but I really dislike the notion of dipping 1 or 2 levels in some more or less remote class only for the sake of gaining access to that one particular talent or feat necessary to gain access to yet another combo or class, or combo of classes. I do not aim to create a character capable of solo-ing this campaign (nor, as a player, do I have the chops to do so, even should you hand me pun-pun's character sheet).

taking all of the above in account,
I am thinking of distributing my dices as follows:
STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 10

as for races, I'm thinking strongheart halfling, or elf. I can't really think of an other race that would be well suited for an archer/thief.
suggestions and observations are welcome.

P.S. I am reading the relevant guides and handbooks, but as always, I have difficulty processing the infodump, so thank you, but I don't think I am missing any links to relevant handbooks.

[Honest Tiefling]

1. What do you mean by flavor? Faerun is a big place, so it is a bit like saying it has the flavor of cake. There's a general trend, but there is a lot of variation. Also, which region or what region are you starting off as? Where is your BG set?

2. You might want a better strength. Composite bows demand it. (And personally, it makes more sense to me.)

3. Rogue might be a bad idea, since your sneak attack die only work for 30 feet. What resources can you use? The Scout class might be right up your alley. Might I ask what Optimization level your party tends to be at?

[dehro]

1. What do you mean by flavor? Faerun is a big place, so it is a bit like saying it has the flavor of cake. There's a general trend, but there is a lot of variation. Also, which region or what region are you starting off as? Where is your BG set?

2. You might want a better strength. Composite bows demand it. (And personally, it makes more sense to me.)

3. Rogue might be a bad idea, since your sneak attack die only work for 30 feet. What resources can you use? The Scout class might be right up your alley. Might I ask what Optimization level your party tends to be at?

1) I don't know. It's Faerun, so it's cake and not pork chops (ravenloft) but I don't know much beyond that.. the DM has been remarkably stingy on setting details. MY BG will therefore be equally unspecified.. after all, we're first level mooks.

2) you are right. I guess I could swap out STR for CHA (even though that gives me stupid negative points on things like bluff, which I gather will also be one of my tasks).. I'm not really comfy with the notion of bringing wisdom into the negatives for the impact on Will saves.

3) the party does need some way to get into places and through locked doors, or tracking.. and none of the others so far seem inclined to cover that role. If I can get that stuff otherwise and still be a decent archer, I am open to suggestions.
as for optimisation, I don't know. experience level within player pool varies, and so does the tendency or know-how towards optimisation. I guess at least one or two WILL be pretty well optimised.

[prufock]

Options that come to my mind:

Swift Hunter - A ranger/scout multiclass using the Swift Hunter feat to gain some benefits from both. This build gives you some pretty good damage output through skirmish, close to full BAB, improved speed, lots of skill points, tracking AND trapfinding, and a grab bag of other goodies (camouflage and/or hide in plain sight!).

Warlock - This gives you at-will ranged blasting, which can be at 250' range if you take Eldritch Spear. Your invocations round you out with Beguiling Influence for face duties, Shatter for traps and locks (unless they're magical, then you're in trouble), Walk Unseen for sneaking, Flee the Scene to teleport away, and so on. You can take a level of Binder and the Precocious Apprentice feat at level 1 to get into Anima Mage, increasing your versatility. You can also take Hellfire Warlock later for more damage. Wands of Knock and Find Traps can help you out here (thanks to UMD check) and you can use animated undead to spring traps.

Arcane Sniper - Using rogue, unseen seer, uncanny trickster, daggerspell mage, spellwarp sniper in any combination, you cast spells from hiding that deal sneak attack damage. You can trapfind, craft, and have lots of utility or extra-damage spells. Take a reserve feat for dealing damage at will without depleting spell slots.

Factotum - Because it does everything. Take the Track feat if you need it, and lots of Fonts of Inspiration.

[dehro]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

Warlock is awesome and one of the characters that lasted longest in the previous campaigns.. there is the issue of the use of Shatter never giving the right result.. as in, I would shatter the lock on a closed door, and the DM (other guy who is now a player, but I think the current DM is of the same opinion) basically told me it would break the lock without opening the door.. so, huge let down for me.

arcane sniper.. I will pretend I understood half of what you said there. it is something I'd like the character to grow into, if possible.

factotum.. I am not really familiar with it.. and fear I rolled poorly for such a jack of all trades kind of character.

[Lanaya]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

It does ranged just as well as it does melee, if not better.

[Honest Tiefling]

I looked at the feat Swift Hunter and it doesn't seem melee at all. I'm a little confused.

[DEMON]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid

Nope. Greater Manyshot, or swift action movement and Rapid Shot full attacks. Swift Hunter is very archery (albeit short ranged; usually up to 30ft.)

Since you're in Fearun and I'm currently dabbling in that build, I'd also suggest SotAO Ranger / Wizard (Wiz 1 is all you need). 6+INT skill points; lots of nice skills, Trapfinding a sinlge ACF away.

[Flickerdart]

Given your party composition, is an archer the best idea? You only have one frontline guy, so there's nobody standing between all of your squishies and the enemy. This is especially true if you are going to be a Rogue or Scout with a vested interest in a 30ft (60ft with that one feat) range. The casters can at least hang far back and shoot Medium or Long range spells. If you are 100% for archery, I would really recommend focusing on long-range engagements. This means no precision damage - a composite bow and generic damage bonuses are going to have to be your bread and butter. Knowledge Devotion, composite bows, that sort of thing.

Factotum is a good option, since it can do the skill stuff very well and have resources aplenty for archery.

If you can reasonably expect the campaign to go on for a while, Sniper's Shot (1st level spell for a bunch of casters, swift action) lets you have unlimited SA range for one shot. Since archers thrive on multiple volleys, this isn't super great, but it's something.

[prufock]

swift hunter is melee.. which I'm trying to avoid
Swift Hunter is either melee or ranged, whichever you choose. Take the ranged combat style from ranger and pick up a bow.


Warlock is awesome and one of the characters that lasted longest in the previous campaigns.. there is the issue of the use of Shatter never giving the right result.. as in, I would shatter the lock on a closed door, and the DM (other guy who is now a player, but I think the current DM is of the same opinion) basically told me it would break the lock without opening the door.. so, huge let down for me.
In that case, your DM isn't playing fair, but remember that shatter affects a solid object up to TEN POUNDS per caster level. If breaking the lock doesn't work, just break the door! Or, as I said, wands of Knock and Find Traps, and then just blast the traps.


arcane sniper.. I will pretend I understood half of what you said there. it is something I'd like the character to grow into, if possible.
Those were some prestige classes and a feat. Basically, you would multiclass rogue with some spellcaster (probably wizard) and then get into one or more of the above prestige classes. A reserve feat lets you cast a pseudo-spell, some options of which do damage. So you are a sneaky character that deals sneak attack damage with your spells.


factotum.. I am not really familiar with it.. and fear I rolled poorly for such a jack of all trades kind of character.
With Factotum, switch around your INT and DEX, as well as STR and WIS abilities (bumping your STR and DEX when you hit level 4 or 8) and you would do fine. You gain bonuses to attacks, saves, and damage based on INT when you spend an Inspiration Point. You can gain sneak attack as well. It's a very good class for what you want, and you get a few spells to boot.


Given your party composition, is an archer the best idea? You only have one frontline guy, so there's nobody standing between all of your squishies and the enemy.
Don't discount the divine caster as a frontliner, Flicker. Clerics get heavy armor, tower shields, Divine Power, etc. Druids get animal companions and wild shape.

[Flickerdart]

Don't discount the divine caster as a frontliner, Flicker. Clerics get heavy armor, tower shields, Divine Power, etc. Druids get animal companions and wild shape.
There are other divine casters than those, and even with these there's no guarantee they'll want to wade into melee combat. Relying on uncontrollable variables is the surest route to disappointment.

[dehro]

the divine caster may very well end up being of the punchy variety, so frontline duties seem to be covered.
Scout is another avenue I am considering

EDIT: scout seems to do everything I had in mind for my character to do... i.e. archery, traps, scouting (d'oh)...
it lacks bluff as skill.. but that's a minor issue, maybe..

[Troacctid]

I think either Warlock or Swift Hunter is the way to go for a sneaky archer.

Warlocks are pretty great at stealth and infiltration. They can hide in plain sight at 1st level with the darkness invocation and the Blend Into Shadows feat. (Darkness is also nice for granting concealment to your entire party. Team player!) Flee the scene allows them to teleport themselves and others past any mundane obstacles at will--no need for Open Lock when you can blink right past the door! Run into any magical traps or defenses? Snap off a voracious dispelling and flick it off like a light switch. If you fail the dispel check, just keep trying until you make it--unlimited uses FTW. And as for archery, Eldritch Blast lets you deal consistent ranged damage turn after turn, and you can enhance it with some nice rider effects too.

Swift Hunter is the archetypal mundane archer. It lets you toss a lot of damage dice around in combat, and you get bonus feats and loads of skill points to round out the build. You'd typically start as a Scout and multiclass into Ranger around 4th or 5th level.

[DEMON]

Swift Hunter is the archetypal mundane archer. It lets you toss a lot of damage dice around in combat, and you get bonus feats and loads of skill points to round out the build. You'd typically start as a Scout and multiclass into Ranger around 4th or 5th level.

There are of course also more scout-y, less ranger-y variations on the build, but are generally considered weaker.


it lacks bluff as skill.. but that's a minor issue, maybe..

Any particular reason you need bluff as a class skill?

[dehro]

There are of course also more scout-y, less ranger-y variations on the build, but are generally considered weaker.



Any particular reason you need bluff as a class skill?

Mostly because nobody else so far seems inclined towards the face role and either way I'm going to place my scores, charisma isn't going to be up there, and my gaming group has spent considerable time being fooled by all sorts of shady characters. Having a chance for a little payback, albeit with a different DM and in a different campaign is appealing

[Flickerdart]

You can actually make a pretty respectable Charisma-based archer. You don't get much in the way of skills, but a Paladin with Ranged Smite Evil and Divine Might can put out some pretty nasty hurt. I like going into Divine Crusader afterwards for the War domain and later the Holy Warrior feat, which adds another static damage bonus (up to +9). Killoren as a base race gives you another type of smite, for even more smiting!

Or you can try your hand at throwing - Bloodstorm Blade is a perennial favourite.

[Sian]

Killoren (or whatever else you fancy which have fey type) with Charming The Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) might be an interesting place to start for an archer looking to pull face duty

[Flickerdart]

Killoren (or whatever else you fancy which have fey type) with Charming The Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) might be an interesting place to start for an archer looking to pull face duty
Killorens' Destroyer aspect gives you a sweet Smite, so I would definitely go with them for CHArchers. Use the +2 LA to score some nifty template for a big fat CHA boost.

[dehro]

Killoren Scout seems to be my favourite option, so far.. I know it's not exactly what I started with, but that was never set in stone to begin with... and I find the concept of a killoren scout rather intriguing.

[Sian]

another just as interesting twist would be Half-Fey Something (Human for flexibility?) as your LA+2, giving you fly (good), a reasonable stat boost for this kind of character, and Charm Person as an at will SLA (and type: fey)

[Darrin]

Killoren Scout seems to be my favourite option, so far.. I know it's not exactly what I started with, but that was never set in stone to begin with... and I find the concept of a killoren scout rather intriguing.

I'd still strongly recommend going Swift Hunter. Something like:

Race: Killoren
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion)
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Rapid Shot. Bonus: Point Blank Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel).
7) Ranger 4.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH). Bonus: Manyshot.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel.
11) Ranger 7.
12) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
13) Ranger 9.
14) Ranger 10.
15) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Improved Precise Shot.
16) Ranger 12.
17) Ranger 13.
18) Ranger 14. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
19) Ranger 15.
20) Ranger 16.

[defiantdan]

I feel like some of the archer problems should be address. D&D is a fantasy game but it is built on some wonky mechanics. Melee uberchargers have an abundance of ways of making their attacks do tons of damage and thus warranting their existence in the action economy. Archers though prominent in fiction don't get that much love in easy to get mechanics. with out access to hank's energy bow and a mix of class dipping, dragon mag and pathfinder stuff making an archer that actually warrants a spot in the adventure party without becoming a waste of space is difficult. It's better for the party and your optimization ceiling to go with something like a zen archery cloistered cleric. you can skill monkey and shoot but you aren't a one trick pony. You'd be able to summon, heal, perform essential knowledge checks, dispel. you won't solo but you will have essential tools to help the whole party succeed.

[dehro]

I'd still strongly recommend going Swift Hunter. Something like:

Race: Killoren
1) Scout 1. Feat: Travel Devotion (Complete Champion)
2) Ranger 1. Bonus: Track.
3) Ranger 2. Feat: Rapid Shot. Bonus: Point Blank Shot.
4) Scout 2.
5) Scout 3.
6) Ranger 3. Feat: Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel).
7) Ranger 4.
8) Ranger 5.
9) Ranger 6. Feat: Greater Manyshot (XPH). Bonus: Manyshot.
10) Scout 4. Bonus: Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel.
11) Ranger 7.
12) Ranger 8. Feat: Improved Rapid Shot (Complete Warrior).
13) Ranger 9.
14) Ranger 10.
15) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion (x2). Bonus: Improved Precise Shot.
16) Ranger 12.
17) Ranger 13.
18) Ranger 14. Feat: Travel Devotion (x3).
19) Ranger 15.
20) Ranger 16.
is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

[Sian]

trapfinding and disabling only really need 1 level of trapfinding class, rest is purely skill dependent

[Flickerdart]

is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??
I like Scout 1/Ranger 2/Scout +3 for the start of a Swift Hunter - you want to take your first level in Scout because of the extra skill points and Trapfinding, then get your BAB and bonus feats from Ranger as soon as you can, and most importantly, align your 4th level of Scout with level 6 so you can take Improved Skirmish as soon as you have Swift Hunter instead of waiting until level 9 or 10. You can replace one level of Ranger with Barbarian if you can stomach the dip - Whirling Frenzy is just too juicy.

[dehro]

I see.. thank you.
and no, I won't be dipping, lol.

the build seems promising

STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 10

my DM thinks I should swap INT and CON.. I like the extra INT for skillmonkey purposes, but 16 CON (at 4th level) is appealing too..

[Sian]

as an archer, if the difference bewteen con 12 and con16 is saving your ass at any point, stuff have gone very wrong already, on either a strategic or tactical level

[Flickerdart]

It depends on what magic item availability is like in this campaign, and how well your front line does its job.

Hit points increase retroactively from CON bonuses, even temporary ones, but skill points aren't affected by a Headband of Intellect. Thus, having a +2 (and after level 4, +3) in INT will be more helpful. Skirmish will also boost your AC, so you will (theoretically) not be getting hit as much.

On the other hand, having more CON is always a good thing. I would recommend seeing what skills your allies have covered - 8+INT is a lot of skill points, and you might actually find yourself not needing more than 9 per level.

[DEMON]

I feel like some of the archer problems should be address. D&D is a fantasy game but it is built on some wonky mechanics. Melee uberchargers have an abundance of ways of making their attacks do tons of damage and thus warranting their existence in the action economy. Archers though prominent in fiction don't get that much love in easy to get mechanics. with out access to hank's energy bow and a mix of class dipping, dragon mag and pathfinder stuff making an archer that actually warrants a spot in the adventure party without becoming a waste of space is difficult. It's better for the party and your optimization ceiling to go with something like a zen archery cloistered cleric. you can skill monkey and shoot but you aren't a one trick pony. You'd be able to summon, heal, perform essential knowledge checks, dispel. you won't solo but you will have essential tools to help the whole party succeed.

Not saying there aren't any issues with archery, but suggesting a Tier 1 replacement for everything (okay, not entirely true, since you're fine with ubercharging) is the Powergamers solutions, invalidating, like, 4/5 of the classes in game, if not more.

A golf bag of special material arrows at low-mid levels, followed up with Force and Splitting weapon enchantments helps a lot with improving the effectivity of archery, regardless of class, feats or special abilities.

Serpentstongue arrows are dirt cheap and good against, among other things, zombies (and ropes, but zombies are usually a more common target for most archers). Non-magical cold iron arrows are also dirt cheap, so making all your "mundane" arrows of the cold iron serpentstongue variety is a good way to deal with some DR early on.

Of course, if you're surrounded by a bunch of highly optimized high tier players in a campaign with an equally high power level, then by all means the Zen Archery Cloistered Cleric is a much better option.


is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?

where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

You're perfectly set up for trapfinding/disabling, not so much for being a face. Quite frankly, if you're going the Swift Hunter route, you should just give up on being a face. Those classes are not built for that role and your rolls are not favoring too many different roles. As such, I'd ditch CHA and up the STR, as now you're gonna get a damage penalty from low STR.

[Sian]

if being dead set on playing face as well, Swift Ambusher might be a better go with something among the lines of Scout 3/4 + Rogue x, drops a tiny bit in the offensive department (no forth iteration), but gaining the ability to sneak attack every now and again, OR the ability to gain a ton of feats via Martial Rogue, and a couple more skill points that can be used on face duties

[Darrin]

is there a special reason to place the scout/ranger levels in this exact order?


Yes. Point Blank Shot is the prereq for all the important archery feats, so getting it at 3rd with Rapid Shot helps set you up for more archery feats later. Otherwise, you'd have to wait until 6th level to get any other archery-related feats, and you have to decide what your 1st and 3rd level feats are going to be without it. You could take Point Blank Shot at 1st and Rapid Shot at 3rd, but then your Ranger Combat Style becomes useless or redundant. Delaying Ranger also puts off Swift Hunter (the lynchpin of the Swift Hunter build) until 9th, which means you've spent almost half the levels of your Swift Hunter build not being a Swift Hunter.

Ideally, you want a Swift Hunter build to start with some combination of Scout 3/Ranger 2, and then take Scout 4 at 6th level so you can use your bonus feat to pick up Swift Hunter and another feat at the same time (such as Improved Skirmish). But for an archery-based Swift Hunter, there's an additional problem... your ability to move+full attack depends on getting Manyshot as quickly as possible, as this is the prereq for both Greater Manyshot and Improved Rapid Shot. However, if you take it before you get it as your Combat Style at Ranger 6, you're wasting a bonus feat. So for archery it's better to wait on that Scout 4 level until we get Scout 3/Ranger 6 and at 9th level we can unlock both Manyshot and either Greater Manyshot or Improved Rapid Shot. This brings your "sweet spot" where all your Swift Hunter abilities start to work together down to 9th level instead of 12th. After that, you can take Scout 4 to pick up Improved Skirmish as your scout bonus feat.

From there, you can focus on being just a Ranger, or look at dipping Highland Stalker (Complete Adventurer), Dragon Devotee (Races of the Dragon), or Unseen Seer (Complete Mage) for better skirmish damage.

I apologize if I make it sound more complicated, as you were asking for something simple in the OP. But with certain feat chains, there's a cascade effect if you don't take them at the earliest possible level. Since most campaigns tend to fizzle in the mid/late levels, getting the "good stuff" early means you get a chance to actually play with the "good stuff".



where would this build leave me in terms of trapfinding, disabling and such, and being the "face"??

Scout 1 unlocks trapfinding, and you have the skill points to be just as good at it as any rogue. (Check the Complete Adventurer errata. Scouts get Disable Device.) If Ranger not having Disable Device as a class skill bothers you, you can use the Trap Expert ACF (Dungeonscape) to pick it up as a class skill, although having Trapfinding twice is a little redundant.

As far as being the party face: Did you spend 4 skill points on Diplomacy at 1st level? Yes? Congrats, odds are good that (even as cross-class) you're now better at Diplomacy than most every other PC (except the bard), and will probably continue to be better at it for the rest of your party's careers as PCs.

[Doctor Awkward]

I feel like some of the archer problems should be address. D&D is a fantasy game but it is built on some wonky mechanics. Melee uberchargers have an abundance of ways of making their attacks do tons of damage and thus warranting their existence in the action economy. Archers though prominent in fiction don't get that much love in easy to get mechanics. with out access to hank's energy bow and a mix of class dipping, dragon mag and pathfinder stuff making an archer that actually warrants a spot in the adventure party without becoming a waste of space is difficult. It's better for the party and your optimization ceiling to go with something like a zen archery cloistered cleric. you can skill monkey and shoot but you aren't a one trick pony. You'd be able to summon, heal, perform essential knowledge checks, dispel. you won't solo but you will have essential tools to help the whole party succeed.


Core-Only Archer (http://community.wizards.com/comment/20456206#comment-20456206) build by carnivore.
Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Horizon Walker 6/Shadow Dancer 4

Capable of killing a CR 20 Old Red Dragon, alone, in a matter of rounds.
There is no munchkin-ism involved here. It's all about maximizing your strengths and capitalizing on dragons weaknesses.

Your character is a dragon hunter. He is extremely well-versed in tracking, locating, and killing them.
You find the dragon's cave way up in the mountains. Good job. Go in and kill it? Hell no. You're a ranger. You camp out in the woods nearby and wait for it to leave the cave to find food/treasure/whatever.
The dragon has a spot of 36. 23 Ranks in hide + 4 competence from Horizon Walker + 2 morale + 9 Dex and Hide in Plain Sight gives you 38. If you throw a 19 or 20, you cannot be spotted. If you drink a Potion of Invisibility, the dragon doesn't even get to roll.
Dragons have Blindsense, so they auto-locate when you are within 60 feet? Great. You have a compound bow. Your optimal range is 300 freaking feet. You and the dragon probably won't be on the same grid.
Dragons are clumsy fliers. They can go really fast in a straight line, but they can't corner worth a damn. You make your first attack when it's flying over your head, and will probably get at least another full round before it even turns around.

This build can be tailored to fight other dangerous creatures as well, mostly by changing the favored enemies. Rapid shot volley archery builds have always been very effective in 3.5e. They didn't really need too much support. It's other styles of archery that become more viable when you go outside core.

EDIT: being the party face is rarely about skills, it's more about you, as a player, knowing what to say and how to act. The skills only matter if you have a DM who says, "Roll Diplomacy." every single time you open your mouth in polite conversation. And in that situation, yeah, 4 ranks is probably plenty. especially with synergy from useful things like Bluff and Sense Motive.

[DEMON]

Martial Rogue

Good idea for the intended concept.

But you need another source of +1d6 Sneak Attack to qualify for Swift Ambusher, so unless it comes in feat/item form Assassin's Stance or another dip will be necessary.

[Elric VIII]

An archer build I enjoyed was a Ranger/Rogue/Chameleon (RoD) build with knowledge devotion.

Here's the build:

Human with S: 8 D: 18 C: 12 I: 15 W: 10 Ch: 11
1) Rogue* 1: Educated, Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
2) Ranger** 1: -
3) Ranger 2: Knowledge Devotion, Rapid Shot
4) Rogue 2: Precise Shot
5) Rogue 3: -
6) Rogue 4: Weapon Focus (longbow), Deadeye Shot***
7) Chameleon 1: -
8) Chameleon 2: Manyshot
9) Chameleon 3: Improved Rapid Shot
10) Chameleon 4: -
11) Chameleon 5: -
12) Chameleon 6: Quicken Spell
13) Chameleon 7: -
14) Chameleon 8: -
15) Chameleon 9: Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
16) Chameleon 10: -

* Use the Unearthed Arcana variants Wilderness Rogue and Feat Rogue to gain fighter feats and some more ranger-ish skill list in exchange for SA and a few of your normal skills. Additionally, I used the rogue variant that trades trapfinding for poison use.

** If you trade away rogue trapfinding, you can trade away track from ranger to get trapfinding. I also used the Favored Enemy: Arcanists option sonce you only get 1 level of FA.

*** Dead Eye is a feat from Dragon Compendium that adds dex to damage vs. foes within 30ft that are not immune to crits with any raged weapon for which you have weapon focus. This isn't strictly needed, but I like it. YMMV since it's dragon mag.

This build really comes together at level 7 when you start getting access to the awesome ranger, druid, and cleric spells via the divine focus.

You won't be able to keep your knowledge skills completely maxed if you want to get other skills, but I find that leveling them up in turns every other level worked out just fine, especially with the Collector of Stories skill trick, synergy bonuses, the bonuses from the Education feat, and the bonuses from the divine and arcane focuses.

If you don't want to use Dead Eye, I'd recommend moving some of the other archery feats up earlier and taking Open Minded to sure up your skill ranks.

All in all, I found this character exceptionally fun since he was a skill monkey dps with minor utility magic.

[dehro]

I think I'll stick to the scout ranger combo and keep it simple, giving up on being the face of the party (yeah, previous master was all about "roll for diplomacy " and I have no reason to think the current one will be any different)

[dehro]

I'm looking at templates. Both classes (ranger and scout) are not the killoren favourite class, so I have a feeling that I will already progress somewhat slower than I should like, especially considering most levels will be taken in the class I multiclass into (shouldn't I start with ranger to minimise this issue?) so, maybe adding a template on top is really not the smartest thing to do (LA sticks and cannot be bought off), but I am still intrigued. I'm primarily interested in the shadow creature one... But, is it worth it, considering the already slow level progression?

[Sian]

if not going face and jumping loops to make charisma worthwhile, Killoren don't really have much for it all things considered, so in the case of a scout/Ranger with no face duties, Human is miles ahead ...

[dehro]

if not going face and jumping loops to make charisma worthwhile, Killoren don't really have much for it all things considered, so in the case of a scout/Ranger with no face duties, Human is miles ahead ...

I like the fluff and general flavour... In what ways is it so much better and what about the option of adding a template?

[Larsen]

I did a scout with a level of swordsage to include the sudden leap manoeuver from ToB. Full attacks with skirmish are nice.

[Xerlith]

If we're talking about archery and not being sure about the number of melee characters, have you considered short/medium range combat with Bloodstorm blade?

While not particularily, a Iaijutsu Focus-centered Factotum4/Warblade1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower5/Warblade+2/Factotum+4 can proc their Iaijutsu Focus at any range (up to 50ft, okay), with just one Gnome Quickrazor.
I don't know what you consider dipping, but two-three Warblade levels seemed rather essential here.
And while I said that, a Hit-And-Run Exoticist Fighter dip seems so juicy here, for those sweet proficiencies (feats, you're back!) and the option to grab an Aptitude Quickrazor to use with Boomerang Daze....
Say, a Factotum3/H&R Exoticist1/Warblade1/BSB4/MT5/Warblade+1/Factotum+5...

[dehro]

If I bring a build that includes 5 classes, I am going to get spat in the face. We don't really go for blatant minmaxing in any way or shape... I to dislike it, and this just looks like uber-minmaxing even if it's not (is it? I have no idea)
My main reason for opening threads here is to avoid blatant rookie mistakes that would level me up into a corner made of uncompatible choices and feats... Which is nothing like a full on minmax.
On a more practical note, tome of battle, stances and their mechanics are a bit beyond me. They were out of bounds in the last campaign and I haven't asked, but think the same is true in this campaign.

[Elric VIII]

If I bring a build that includes 5 classes, I am going to get spat in the face. We don't really go for blatant minmaxing in any way or shape... I to dislike it, and this just looks like uber-minmaxing even if it's not (is it? I have no idea)
My main reason for opening threads here is to avoid blatant rookie mistakes that would level me up into a corner made of uncompatible choices and feats... Which is nothing like a full on minmax.
On a more practical note, tome of battle, stances and their mechanics are a bit beyond me. They were out of bounds in the last campaign and I haven't asked, but think the same is true in this campaign.

The most minmaxed thing you could do is Druid 20, Cleric 20, Wizard 20, or Artificer 20.

Don't be fooled into thinking that taking a lot of classes is somehow a munchkin thing to do. 3.5 is very much a system that encourages "buying" specific abilities via multiclassing, at least when you don't have spellcasting. You can build a very coherent character, that you would otherwise not be able to represent with a single class, by dipping gratuitously. There is nothing morally superior in being worse at what you want to do, "minmax" is not a dirty word.

[dehro]

that may well be.. but it's not what it looks like.. fishing across half a dozen classes doesn't sound like someone who isn't trying to build something more than a regular character.. whether the maths say that that would be the outcome or not

[Xerlith]

With all due respect, I take it you are aware that what you're saying is basically throwing a fallacy around?

Well. You can try a Warblade10/Eternal Blade10 archery build. It works, kind of. volley archery.

And overall, you should know that archery is one of the hardest combat styles to optimize. One such way is building a Dragonfire Optimization Bard4/Warblade16 who boosts his and his team's arrows with an additional ~8d6 fire damage/hit. It should fulfill all the requirements you have:
1. No dipping
2. Two classes
3. Intelligence focus, with competent party-facing (Diplomacy synergies are a thing, and all the skills are Bard class skills).

[dehro]

i was just made to realise (by my helpful/disparaging gaming partners) that a scout/ranger with the build suggested by Darrin would end up about 4 levels behind everybody else by the end of the campaign.. on account of how the Killoren's favourite class is neither of those two and the penalties this brings about..
:smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

i was just made to realise (by my helpful/disparaging gaming partners) that a scout/ranger with the build suggested by Darrin would end up about 4 levels behind everybody else by the end of the campaign.. on account of how the Killoren's favourite class is neither of those two and the penalties this brings about..
:smalleek:
Ew, your DM actually uses multiclass penalties?

Ranger 10/Scout 10 wouldn't be THAT bad, I suppose, but it would be best to grab a race with Favored Class: Ranger, such as Wood Elf from the Monster Manual (as standard elf, but with net stat mods +2 STR +2 DEX -2 CON -2 INT) or Arctic Halfling from I think Unearthed Arcana (+2 to Swim, no bonus to slings, otherwise same as Halfling). I don't think any races have Scout as a favored class because WotC is notoriously terrible for providing content for non-core classes.

[Sian]

Neraphim Scout 4 / Ranger 16 (they have Ranger as favored class) and chat your DM into accepting that Annulats and Chakram's are the same (as they are discribed the same) so you have access to Chakram Ricochet (Champions of Ruin) for twice as many attacks than usual, if you accept using a throwing weapon (wouldn't really matter if you're primarily in dungeons), or prehaps swapping some of the Ranger levels for Master Thrower for hiliarity

[dehro]

Ew, your DM actually uses multiclass penalties?

Ranger 10/Scout 10 wouldn't be THAT bad, I suppose, but it would be best to grab a race with Favored Class: Ranger, such as Wood Elf from the Monster Manual (as standard elf, but with net stat mods +2 STR +2 DEX -2 CON -2 INT) or Arctic Halfling from I think Unearthed Arcana (+2 to Swim, no bonus to slings, otherwise same as Halfling). I don't think any races have Scout as a favored class because WotC is notoriously terrible for providing content for non-core classes.

yeah.. my group is very by the book in many respects.. sometimes I would have liked rule of cool to be in place, but that doesn't seem to happen a great deal.
if I am to follow the build as set out in the thread, I'd end up with scout 4/ranger 16

my issue with picking classes that provide -2 to any number is that my rolls didn't really go very well, so I'd end up with at least 2 negative values instead of the single 8 I have now.. both the old DM and the current one are of the school that "CON should be your highest stat except for the one that is the core of your character" and I'm sure that the game will reflect this despite me building a character meant to stay out of the way, evade, strike from a distance etc etc...
I'm putting my 8 on charisma, because 8 in STR just doesn't work for composite weapons

[Sian]

another option, which is available if you feel like you'll have the feats for them is to go crossbows (either Light or Hand, noone else is worth it), and go for Crossbow Sniper giving ½ DexMod to damage, and just as importantly, you can now skirmish from 60ft away instead of 30ft as usual

[dehro]

in the meantime, either I pick as divinity shaundakul or travel devotion is off the table.. and a killoren ranger scout who isn't devoted to nature just makes no sense to me

mildly frustrating.. I'm going to look for another race

[Flickerdart]

in the meantime, either I pick as divinity shaundakul or travel devotion is off the table.. and a killoren ranger scout who isn't devoted to nature just makes no sense to me
Rangers aren't really devoted to nature - they can represent civilization that seeks to master it. Scouts are in a similar line of work. A killoren ranger could be someone who seeks to protect nature and civilization from one another, sort of a "let me take care of this mission into the city/forest because your bears/lumberjacks will just bungle things up and incur the wrath of the lumberjacks/bears" person. You can pick up some ACFs to reinforce the notion, such as Urban Ranger (Unearthed Arcana) or the various Cityscape ACFs (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)for both Ranger and Scout.

Druids are the ones that worship trees.

[dehro]

meh.. in races of the wild it's pretty much spelled out that they are something of an incarnation of nature, the armed hand that defends nature should it ever go to war.. if I wasn't going with a divine caster, I could see no problem in playing him with loyalties divided and a more mundane approach.. but playing the religious side up and then wrenching him away from nature by force of adhering to another cult.. it may pass muster (it does according to my DM) but I really dislike the notion.
might as well play a whale-hunting bedouin

[Flickerdart]

meh.. in races of the wild it's pretty much spelled out that they are something of an incarnation of nature, the armed hand that defends nature should it ever go to war.. if I wasn't going with a divine caster, I could see no problem in playing him with loyalties divided and a more mundane approach.. but playing the religious side up and then wrenching him away from nature by force of adhering to another cult.. it may pass muster (it does according to my DM) but I really dislike the notion.
might as well play a whale-hunting bedouin
Polytheistic faiths don't just worship a single god to the exclusion of everything else. Just because he has a specific god that grants him spells doesn't mean he can't revere nature as well.

[Sian]

Faerun is extremely polytheistic ... only fanatics focus their worship on only one god claiming that other gods aren't worth worshipping, and only nutcases go all monotheistic on one deity (whom does the best to disacknowledge the idiot), claiming other gods not existing.

[Troacctid]

Killoren is a pretty meh race anyway if you don't have some special reason to want to be a fey. If you want racial skill bonuses, go Illumian. It lets you pick any two ability scores and gives you a +2 bonus to any checks based on those scores, plus an additional perk depending on which two you picked. And it has favored class: any. Or just be a human. Bonus feats are great and archers are feat-starved.

[Darrin]

i was just made to realise (by my helpful/disparaging gaming partners) that a scout/ranger with the build suggested by Darrin would end up about 4 levels behind everybody else by the end of the campaign.. on account of how the Killoren's favourite class is neither of those two and the penalties this brings about..


Sorry, I thought about that when I posted the build, but most groups don't play with multiclass penalties.

If Flaws are allowed, take one to get the Additional Favored Class feat (Unearthed Arcana p. 100).

If the DM will allow any Dragon Magazine material, Dragon #306 has several LA +0 templates that (among other things) add a favored class. Magic-Blooded is the most well-known (Wis -2/Cha +2, Favored Class = Sorcerer), but the Desert template (no ability mods) and Wild template (Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2, +5' speed) both change your favored class to Ranger.

Or... this is probably a stretch for your group, you could try Scout 3/Simple Druid 3/Prestige Ranger 14 (Unearthed Arcana). Scout 3/Fighter 2/Druid 1 might be a better entry. Feat progression would be... much different.

If you're willing to consider other races, Wood Elf (MM p. 104) has Ranger as its favored class. So does Tundra Halfing (Frostburn), Jungle Dwarf (UA), and Shifter (MM3).

[Honest Tiefling]

Wait, doesn't Akadi have the travel domain? She should be naturey enough for a ranger. I could also see a Killoren desiring both freedom and the ability to fly as other fey do.

[DEMON]

Or... this is probably a stretch for your group, you could try Scout 3/Simple Druid 3/Prestige Ranger 14 (Unearthed Arcana).

That is... absolutely beautiful in its simplicity and effectiveness for the task at hand. I seriously love this build.

Though there is some minor overlap in Woodland Stride and Trackless Step abilities from different sources (unless ACFs are involved).

[dehro]

Sorry, I thought about that when I posted the build, but most groups don't play with multiclass penalties.

If Flaws are allowed, take one to get the Additional Favored Class feat (Unearthed Arcana p. 100).

If the DM will allow any Dragon Magazine material, Dragon #306 has several LA +0 templates that (among other things) add a favored class. Magic-Blooded is the most well-known (Wis -2/Cha +2, Favored Class = Sorcerer), but the Desert template (no ability mods) and Wild template (Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2, +5' speed) both change your favored class to Ranger.

Or... this is probably a stretch for your group, you could try Scout 3/Simple Druid 3/Prestige Ranger 14 (Unearthed Arcana). Scout 3/Fighter 2/Druid 1 might be a better entry. Feat progression would be... much different.

If you're willing to consider other races, Wood Elf (MM p. 104) has Ranger as its favored class. So does Tundra Halfing (Frostburn), Jungle Dwarf (UA), and Shifter (MM3).

I'm feeling really stupid asking this but, what do you mean by simple druid?
Magazines are probably off limits and I don't really like flaws.. Killoren, skillpoints and ranged (archery) attacks are pretty much the things I really want for the character, whether that lowers his survival chances or not

[Troacctid]

I'm feeling really stupid asking this but, what do you mean by simple druid?
Magazines are probably off limits and I don't really like flaws.. Killoren, skillpoints and ranged (archery) attacks are pretty much the things I really want for the character, whether that lowers his survival chances or not

Simple Druid is sometimes used to refer to this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).

[dehro]

Simple Druid is sometimes used to refer to this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).

Gotcha... Wait, no, I don't.
Where's that from? Because we don't do third party or things not from the official books, which I suspect shoots this out of the water.

[Troacctid]

That's from Unearthed Arcana. It's also freely available in the SRD. Totally official.

[Darrin]

I'm feeling really stupid asking this but, what do you mean by simple druid?

The variant druid on page 58 of Unearthed Arcana, loses Wild Shape but gains the Monk's AC bonus, fast movement, favored enemy, and Track as a bonus feat (a prereq needed for Prestige Ranger). This assumes variant druids still count as a favored class for Killoren (if so, then Scout 4/Simple Druid 2 also works, and gets another bonus feat). Since favored enemy is all you need to qualify for Swift Hunter, you could also try Scout 3/Druid 1/Fighter 2 as an entry into Prestige Ranger, which gets you a couple more archery feats out of the way early on.

The simple Barbarian variant is also tempting, as it gets favored enemy and the ranger's archery combat style, but no rage and no divine spellcasting. Druidic Avenger (page 51) gets Rage, which would be great if you could swap it for Whirling Frenzy (page 66), but no bonus feats to help get into Prestige Ranger. Then again... combine those two, and Scout 3/Druidic Avenger 1/Simple Barbarian 2/Prestige Ranger 14 might work, and doesn't incur any multiclass penalties.

I apologize if I'm complicating things, but hopefully we can get a build that everyone in your group should be happy with.

[DEMON]

Just a side note: If we weren't going for Skirmish, that Barbie 3 ACF from Dungeonscape could get you Trapfinding that keys off Survival (and Druid gives you a bonus to survival checks, btw), so you could Track and Trapfind with a singe skill.

Combining Simple Druid with a Simple Barbarian gives you 2/3 of the pre-req feats for Prestige Ranger.

Another sidenote: Both Simple Druid and Simple Barbarian also give you Favored enemy, so they also qualify you for Swift Hunter w/out Ranger levels. Thus, for example, a Druid 1 / Scout 19 would have full Skirmish and 5 FEs.


Gotcha... Wait, no, I don't.
Where's that from? Because we don't do third party or things not from the official books, which I suspect shoots this out of the water.

Unearthed Arcana is official, and is freely available on SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) in the variant rules section.

It's not 3rd party by any means, it's just a couple of alternative class features for the core classes... any much more...

[Doctor Awkward]

I'm not going to say you or your group is playing it wrong. Just want to offer some alternate perspectives:



that may well be.. but it's not what it looks like.. fishing across half a dozen classes doesn't sound like someone who isn't trying to build something more than a regular character.. whether the maths say that that would be the outcome or not

Enter the Stormwind Fallacy (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2861636).
The long and short of it is that characters who are mechanically optimized and characters who are well-written and cleverly role-played are not mutually exclusive. You can easily be both at the same time. There's been a lot of counterarguments made against it over the years with regards to things like dipping, purple dragon syndrome ("the rules don't say I can't!" argument), role-playing vs. roll-playing (quite the misnomer, since someone who optimizes is actually doing everything they can to minimize the effect that dice will have on the outcome of their actions).
The bottom line is that 3E is very much a modular character design system, where you build a character to meet a concept, rather than forcing your idea to conform to the abilities you were given like in older versions. A lot of old school players were very turned off by this, and reject out-of-hand anything that doesn't conform to their expectations of what should appear in a 2E game (where the very idea of multi-classing was something restricted to elves).

The idea of what constitutes building a "regular" character is also not something that can be readily and easily defined. It's another holdover from the Basic and Advanced era of D&D that I call the "I am my class" mentality.
What that means is that your character self-identifies within the game world as whatever class they are taking. They treat it as an occupation. When someone asks them what they do, they will say "I'm a wizard" (or an enchanter or a diviner if they specialize), "I'm a thief", or "I'm a ranger". Well suppose you have a character who would rather answer that question by saying, "I'm a mercenary", or a scholar, or a bounty hunter, or an archaeologist? There's no class for that, but 3E is designed in such a way that you can pick abilities that conform to what you want to do, rather than trying to shoehorn the idea into an existing chassis. This method treats character classes as abstract concepts that are the sum of the abilities they offer. You didn't attend "Fighter College", you attended a military academy where they taught strategy, tactics, and martial combat. You didn't attend "Wizarding School", you joined an order of intellectuals who explore the fundamental mysteries of the universe. You didn't sign up for a "Thieve's Guild", you joined a fecking street gang. The best part is that these ideas are not mutually exclusive either. You can easily support both within the same campaign.

A lot of opposition to this idea also stems from the (mistaken) belief that splat books, and the OGL in general, are responsible for "ruining" 3E, and that Core (Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual) is only proper way to play the game, and anyone that wants to go outside of that only wants things that are overpowered and for munchkins.
Well, enter JaronK's Tier System for Classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0)
The philosophy behind his list is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the one that exists between the various player characters in the same party. If the group as a whole is extremely powerful and flexible than the DM can simply up the challenge and complexity of encounters, and problems only occur when you have a group of PC's with wildly varying levels of power.The list runs from Tier 1, those characters capable of doing everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing (such as Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Artificers), to Tier 2 that are generally just as powerful as the top but not quite as flexible (sorcerers, psions, favored souls), to Tier 4's which can usually do one thing very well but are useless everywhere else (rogue, barbarian, ranger, scout, hexblade), Tier 5's which often cannot do their one thing as well as a Tier 4 can (fighter, monk, paladin) and down to Tier 6's which are incapable of shining even in their own area of expertise (NPC classes like warrior and aristocrat).
Note the huge disparity between core classes in that list. This is one of the reasons why 'Core only' has so many problems. If one guy in your group wants to be a sword-wielding, armored battle master, another guy wants to be a nature worshipping shapeshifter, a third guy wants to be a sneak-thief type, and the last guy wants to be an illusion-focused spellcaster, then you are left with a Druid, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Rogue, and you have an enormous gulf between what the different party members can contribute to an encounter. However, if you go outside core, you can make the first guy a warbalde, the second guy a wildshape-variant ranger, the third guy a factotum, and the fourth one a beguiler. Now everyone gets to be what they want, they will all contribute in roughly equal ways during encounters without anyone being outright mechanically superior to anyone else, and as an added bonus the DM doesn't have to worry about the potentially world-smashing powers a Wizard and Druid can bring to the table.


We don't really go for blatant minmaxing in any way or shape...
At the end of the day all that really matters is having fun, so there is nothing wrong with refusing to try and minmax. I may not agree with that approach, but I don't find any fault in it either.

However, there is an extremely unhealthy school of thought that claims you should want to deliberately make a mechanically inferior character, because it somehow "proves" you've got roleplaying chops or that it offers a richer gaming experience when you can't just brute force your way through every situation you encounter. Well in addition to referring back to the Stormwind Fallacy remember this: the d20 system, especially 3E, is built on combat. Oh there are millions and millions of situations you can come up with that don't involve combat, but eventually your group will enter combat at some point in the campaign. When it happens, if your character cannot meaningfully contribute to the encounter, you are a liability to your group.
There's a big difference between making a character who hates violence and takes a pacifistic approach to situations, and a character who blithely refuses to acknowledge his own personal strengths, weaknesses, and limitations.

As an aside, Unearthed Arcana is a gigantic book of houserules. That's all it was ever intended to be. Simply because it was published by WotC doesn't make it any more "official" than anything your group can come up with. With that in mind, I would encourage you not to discount 3rd party and homebrew material so readily. True it does vary wildly in quality, but the best homebrew is often created by player's who have far more knowledge of the system mechanics than the designers do.

[dehro]

I agree with most of what you say.
I do however play with the players I play with.. if you see what I mean.

At the end of the day all that really matters is having fun
indeed.. and if half the people there, including the DM start poking fun at the character (and the player) because it looks like it's minmaxed or worse, because it tried and failed to minmax (which is much more likely in my case), then the fun seeps out of it after a while.
I am familiar with the Tier system, yet I am facing a DM who steadfastedly argues that a full Scout is really powerful (and the Tier system seems to contraddict this.. then again, we've had several levels at which the scout/ranger in our previous campaign was the main meatshield/damage dealer)...
Another one of his tennets is that you can never have enough CON and if you don't have the biggest CON boost you can afford you're failing at the game.
Since he's the only guy in the party whose character (both characters actually, a druid and a favoured soul) hardly ever died (once at my hands, I'm quite happy to say, lol) and who saved our bacon routinely during the previous 2 years of play, I must give him some credit that he knows what he's doing.
I am also facing a certain level of malicious fun being poked at me because my characters (minmaxed or not as they may be) tend to die horribly and frequently..
As a player I refuse to be the kind of player who learns every stat, every table, every race, talent or skill. My grey matter comes in limited supply and I must dedicate it to other tasks. This leaves me exposed to all kind of blunders whereby I either stick to a build I find online, or I make do and occasionally will make big blunders like picking a talent that is not a prerequisite for talents that I really should pick later on. I don't have the kind of knowledge (or foresight) that makes me see these kind of things..and ( and this may make some people go "what is he doing here then?") I don't want to have to work to develop that kind of knowledge.
Fluff and flavour and the story will count more for me than any boost to my characters (which is why I'm sticking to the Killoren)

On one hand, I agree that picking classes and talents to reach an idea of a character should be of no consequence and allowed.. on the other hand, I understand the argument being made by my gaming friends, who argue that any change of class MUST be played and justified in game, so I can't start out as a scout, go dungeoneering, beat monsters and head home and a couple levels later magically have learned to wield a shield or cast a spell. I may have an idea of making an infallible tracker and archer, but I either build up to it within the limits of the chosen class (i.e. scout), or I must find a believable and not forced way to acquire the new skills that identify the other classes I aim to take in order to basically make a better scout... because in the end, my level 1 character is NOT the magical archer I have in mind and is a simple scout. I can't just bend the plot and the ongame events just because I need to nip over to that other town where there's a good fighter academy or somesuch, where they teach that one oddly flavoured talent that is written up in a setting that has nothing to do with what we're playing.

on top of that, we do play with multiclass penalties and I still have to face the attitude of my co-players and DM, who DO hold opinions about minmaxing and about being over-eager to pick the best possible combo to defeat the odds.
over the last two years, without any malicious intent on his part, the previous DM has mostly been adversarial in his role and style.. as in, we have a (very flexible) outline of what we should be doing, and that puts us against a number of enemies, which we must beat. The group being made of different Tier characters, this ended up often killing the weaker ones. I understand that there are DMs out there who do value the fun and the telling of a story, maybe even lateral thinking, over the "let's see if they survive this" approach. It just didn't turn out that way... (I must admit, mostly because of a long tradition of strategically critical failures with the dice and a few terrible strategic choices on my part.. sometimes the DM would go to some lengths to keep us all alive and it just wouldn't work. there's only so much you can do when you roll a 1 against a Finger of Death).. and I have a feeling that this DM is pretty much on the same wave-length, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[Doctor Awkward]

I agree with most of what you say.
I do however play with the players I play with.. if you see what I mean.

Heh, oh yes. I've been there. :smallfrown:
There was a time when I wanted to play in a gestalt campaign. I had just started looking at the wonders of Dragonfire Inspiration and I wound up with Bard 4/Warblade 16||Duskblade 20 as my first build. Total support character. There was actually not too much he could handle alone.
I was told by the DM that I couldn't do Bard and Duskblade on opposite sides of the build because having caster classes on both gestalt sides at the same time was overpowered. I was pretty cheesed at that because I had spent days tuning the feat and spell selection. So I went with an old standby build of mine instead: whisper gnome Illusionist Wizard 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Incantatrix 10, and stuck Factotum on the other side of it.
It was approved. And then I find out the rest of the party was all melee characters: monk builds, Tome of Battle stuff, gishes, all solidly built, but I was the only pure caster.
Needless to say, he crushed the campaign. He was never in any danger at any point, and outright handled a number of encounters by himself to save party members from dying. Towards the end of the story nobody was really having much fun because there was nothing the DM could do to challenge me that wouldn't annihilate the rest of the party. Afterwards I asked the DM if he still thought Bard||Duskblade would have been overpowered.
In my current regular group I'm not allowed to play Artificers any more for the same reason. I could tell you a thousand stories like that.

I'm not recommending you do things like that to try and be a jerk, I'm just saying that sometimes it takes firsthand demonstrations on what exactly "power" means before people will understand.

But since we don't want to do that, the best help I can offer is how to make the most of your situation given the rules you are working with:

-Since multiclass penalties are there, you always have the option of going human and ignoring them. With the extra feat and bonus skill points, humans are never a bad choice for any build even if they aren't the best.


You should also try to figure out what kind of archery build you want to go with:

-Volley archer: these guys are turrets, like blaster wizards and sorcerers. They do a ton of damage from really far away, but have trouble when something gets close to them.

-Melee or Skirmish archer: Generally they function around precision damage. They are highly mobile and hard to kill, but carry a much higher risk than a volley build, given that you are in the 30 to 40 foot range for most encounters. You also are very dependent on your equipment to help you deal with creatures that are immune to your precision damage (Swift Hunter feat for Scout/Ranger build helps negate this).

-Gish archer: Cleric 20 can make an excellent archer, as can Artificer 20, or a Soulbow build. They have the advantage of not worrying too much about multi-class penalties, and can be really flavorful. The downside of Cleric and Artificer is you are pretty much a spellcaster first, and an archer second, and you are only as powerful as your spells. If you aren't good at picking spells they might not work very well for you.

I would have suggested a Soulbow out of hand, but multiclass penalties will make it hard to play it.
The Archery Handook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) better covers the kind of things I'm talking about, but might not be of much interest to you if you aren't fond of digging into the guts of the system.
KSBSnowOwl (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0) has a number of archery builds that would suit just about any need you might have, but some of them can be hard to adapt to the rules you are using.

[dehro]

well.. we're starting today with the new campaign and I've put together the level 1 scout to begin with.. I'll decide on the fly what sort of build I'll go with, also depending on what the "new" DM will put us through.

apparently the notion of a scout who buys a donkey to carry his stuff, because he's got STR 10 meaning he can barely lift his own armor, is too much of an alien concept.. I'm getting jokes galore on my scouting being disrupted by braying donkeys...

my main issue with the various handbooks that exist online on every conceivable class is that they never actually stick to the class, sample builds and "best option feats" are always made of minmaxing and multiclassing well outside the scope of that actual class

I would like a handbook to explore the notion of "if you want to make the epitome of class x, here are the legit talents that best suit it as you level it up to x 20" instead of "if you want to make the ultimate sample of x, get 1 level of this, 2 levels of that, 1 level of weird, 4 levels of awesome and beg for your master to allow you to do this and take that talent and buy that item, oh yeah, also take a level of x, just in case somebody calls you out on not having actually made an x"

[tomandtish]

I see.. thank you.
and no, I won't be dipping, lol.

the build seems promising

STR 8
DEX 18
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 11
CHA 10

my DM thinks I should swap INT and CON.. I like the extra INT for skillmonkey purposes, but 16 CON (at 4th level) is appealing too..




2. You might want a better strength. Composite bows demand it. (And personally, it makes more sense to me.)

If you are sticking with the bow, I'd certainly do something with strength. ALL bows apply the strength modifier to damage if it is negative. Composites apply it if it is positive, and in your case the penalty would be even worse than -1. So at the very least you want your STR to be 10.


Longbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below) but not a regular longbow.

Longbow, Composite

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

Shortbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below) but not a regular shortbow.

Shortbow, Composite

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite shortbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is lower than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite shortbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite shortbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 75 gp to its cost.

For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite shortbow is treated as if it were a shortbow.

[dehro]

If you are sticking with the bow, I'd certainly do something with strength. ALL bows apply the strength modifier to damage if it is negative. Composites apply it if it is positive, and in your case the penalty would be even worse than -1. So at the very least you want your STR to be 10.

Yeah, I went with 10 STR.
I'll add a link to the character when I find out how to export it from myth weavers

[Elric VIII]

well.. we're starting today with the new campaign and I've put together the level 1 scout to begin with.. I'll decide on the fly what sort of build I'll go with, also depending on what the "new" DM will put us through.

apparently the notion of a scout who buys a donkey to carry his stuff, because he's got STR 10 meaning he can barely lift his own armor, is too much of an alien concept.. I'm getting jokes galore on my scouting being disrupted by braying donkeys...

my main issue with the various handbooks that exist online on every conceivable class is that they never actually stick to the class, sample builds and "best option feats" are always made of minmaxing and multiclassing well outside the scope of that actual class

I would like a handbook to explore the notion of "if you want to make the epitome of class x, here are the legit talents that best suit it as you level it up to x 20" instead of "if you want to make the ultimate sample of x, get 1 level of this, 2 levels of that, 1 level of weird, 4 levels of awesome and beg for your master to allow you to do this and take that talent and buy that item, oh yeah, also take a level of x, just in case somebody calls you out on not having actually made an x"

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but your friends sound like they are 10. Maybe you need to have an OOC chat with them, because if they're mocking you enough that you keep bringing it up as a major determining factor in how you have your fun, it's possible that there are some underlying group dynamics.

[DEMON]

I can't help the feeling that your groupmates are, well, Richards.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I'm not going to try to convince you, or, more accurately, them, what is and/or isn't a min-maxed or cheesed out build.

I'll just point out that not every feat and/or class necessarily has to be obtained trough actual actual training and study. This goes double for divine classes and class features.

Take the proposed Scout / Druid / Prestige Ranger, for example: You start your career as a Scout, being a nature protector that knows his way around the forest and other natural settings. Then, a level or two (or three) later, your bond with nature and your devotion to nature gods grants you additional features, such as spellcasting. And the Prestige Ranger PrC essentially means you're pursuing the martial aspect of your character (full BAB and Skirmish progression) at the cost of drastically slowed down spellcasting progression and a loss of Wildshape. Which is actually a big deal, even if it may not seem like that at the first glance.

The standard Scout / Ranger build is essentially the same thing, albeit weaker. And I would suggest you try talking to your DM nicely and convincing him to drop the XP penalty from the Ranger / Scout Swift Hunter build. Those classes are essentially the same thing (a skilled character at home outside the civilized settlements), but with a somewhat different focus (more skill points, Trapfinding and Skirmish vs. better BAB and spells) and with the Swift Hunter feat, the character actually becomes an amalgam of the two classes. It's as pure and non-min-maxed as it gets.

It should be in the best interest of the whole group to have everyone play a character that does not become a liability for the group because of extra limitations imposed on it by the DM. That is usually not fun for the player, nor anyone else at the table.

[Troacctid]

On one hand, I agree that picking classes and talents to reach an idea of a character should be of no consequence and allowed.. on the other hand, I understand the argument being made by my gaming friends, who argue that any change of class MUST be played and justified in game, so I can't start out as a scout, go dungeoneering, beat monsters and head home and a couple levels later magically have learned to wield a shield or cast a spell. I may have an idea of making an infallible tracker and archer, but I either build up to it within the limits of the chosen class (i.e. scout), or I must find a believable and not forced way to acquire the new skills that identify the other classes I aim to take in order to basically make a better scout... because in the end, my level 1 character is NOT the magical archer I have in mind and is a simple scout. I can't just bend the plot and the ongame events just because I need to nip over to that other town where there's a good fighter academy or somesuch, where they teach that one oddly flavoured talent that is written up in a setting that has nothing to do with what we're playing.

With Scout and Ranger that shouldn't really come into play, as the classes have basically the same fluff and are very similar mechanically. I mean, look at all the overlap in their abilities. Track and Endurance as bonus feats? Check. Ignore difficult terrain? Check. Evasion? Check. Camouflage? Hide in plain sight? Check, check. Wilderness-savvy warriors with a light, mobile combat style and lots of skill points? Check.

Basically, you're training the same skills no matter which of the two you level up in. It's not like you're suddenly gaining a whole new skillset.

[RolkFlameraven]

yeah.. my group is very by the book in many respects.. sometimes I would have liked rule of cool to be in place, but that doesn't seem to happen a great deal.

My group was the same (and I was DM for most of that) but once feats like Swift Hunter, Daring Outlaw and Daring Warrior came out the idea of making a class combo that has a feat that stacks them but still having to deal with the -xp just because someone wanted to be a Elf and not a Human, Halfling or Dwarf was, frankly, stupid.

You could always talk to them about making a rider that once you've got that feat the combo of classes that the feat stacks together no longer have such a penalty if they are not willing to just toss the rule out the window like most, on this forum at lest, have.

Ranger/Scout is about the last combo he should be trying to say you have to RP your way into... Its not like you are going Wiz and suddenly have a spell book with every level 0 in it on the 5th level of a dungeon your group as yet to leave after all.

As for the Donkey... well unless your group thinks you are going to be taking it with you and not leaving it with the party while you, you know, scout I fail to see the problem.

[dehro]

I can't help the feeling that your groupmates are, well, Richards.
I must be missing a cultural reference here...

I'll just point out that not every feat and/or class necessarily has to be obtained trough actual actual training and study. This goes double for divine classes and class features.
Take the proposed Scout / Druid / Prestige Ranger, for example: You start your career as a Scout, being a nature protector that knows his way around the forest and other natural settings. Then, a level or two (or three) later, your bond with nature and your devotion to nature gods grants you additional features, such as spellcasting. And the Prestige Ranger PrC essentially means you're pursuing the martial aspect of your character (full BAB and Skirmish progression) at the cost of drastically slowed down spellcasting progression and a loss of Wildshape. Which is actually a big deal, even if it may not seem like that at the first glance.
100% agreed.. it still has to happen within the scope of a reasonable growth for the character and it mustn't look forced.


The standard Scout / Ranger build is essentially the same thing, albeit weaker. And I would suggest you try talking to your DM nicely and convincing him to drop the XP penalty from the Ranger / Scout Swift Hunter build. Those classes are essentially the same thing (a skilled character at home outside the civilized settlements), but with a somewhat different focus (more skill points, Trapfinding and Skirmish vs. better BAB and spells) and with the Swift Hunter feat, the character actually becomes an amalgam of the two classes. It's as pure and non-min-maxed as it gets.
I mostly agree with this too, but I know my friends.. and arguing in favour of dropping XP penalty in a circumstance where it benefits me will be seen as an attempt at getting away with minmaxing, however much that may not be the case.


anyway, my character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=1104808)
for the record, bad choice of where to stand as opposed as to where the enemy were has landed me in the negative HP 3 times over the course of the first session.. but all considered I got off lightly, what with the Berserker Dwarf having kicked the bucket altogether.
I am still figuring out whether to write an, in character, diary of events..

[Elric VIII]

I must be missing a cultural reference here...

I believe there is a 4-letter nickname for "Richard" that comes into play here. :smallwink:

[Sian]

I believe there is a 4-letter nickname for "Richard" that comes into play here. :smallwink:

(still) drawing a blank ... remember that not everyone come from the same cutural sphere as you (even if its still in the western world which is no way certain)

[Honest Tiefling]

He is referring to a nick name of Richard that is often used to refer to jerks and a certain part of male genitalia.

[dehro]

I get it now.. Wheaton's law could be invoked here, to clarify..

[Elric VIII]

(still) drawing a blank ... remember that not everyone come from the same cutural sphere as you (even if its still in the western world which is no way certain)

Yes, but I'm reasonably sure everyone posting online has internet access. #obnoxious (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nicknames+for+Richard) :smallbiggrin:

[DMVerdandi]

I would definitely give Cleric with a level of prestige ranger (to get it's spells) a shake.
Zen archery feat for wisdom to ranged shots.
Pick war and maybe nature as a domain and play just as you would a ranger, but now, you have ranger spells on your cleric.

[Sian]

Zen archery feat for wisdom to ranged shots.

Given that Zen Archery (and nearly all other feats of this kind) replaces one stat with another, instead of adding onto it, it would give a -4 in ToHits, being worth less than a 'kick me' sign ... not even accounting for that the prerequsistes are 13+ in wisdom which the character doesn't qualify for.

[Dayaz]

A rather... entertaining build I had worked on for a while and still haven't quite finished yet was rogue 5/Combat Trapsmith 5/Shadowdancer 10. Take the Shape Soulmeld feat from MoI and shape the Blinkdog Shirt.

You end up with a bevy of simple, fast to build traps, 2 forms of teleportation, HIPS, and 3 Shadow minions to debuff the enemy while they struggle through your traps trying to reach you before you teleport away. Then you just focus on the standard archery feats/styles/what-have-you.

I'm going to play it myself if my current character dies in RL, which means I'm going to be driving the DM nuts and making the other players rofl the night away.

[DEMON]

rogue 5/Combat Trapsmith 5/Shadowdancer 10

HiPS is great and Darkvision might be handy, but the Shadowdancer's Evasion is redundant (this can be solved by a Rogue's ACF, but then you won't get Evasion till level 12). It also requires 2 crappy feats (1 can be bought as an armor special ability) and a feat that relies on AoOs, that you'll have hard time getting as an archer.

I don't really see the appeal of Combat Trapsmith, but I'd say it's for fluff reasons.

Also, your Sneak Attack progression will stop at +3d6.

As a side note, it's a pity you can't bind the Blink Shirt to Heart Chakra, that blinking effect would be golden to easily qualify for ranged Sneak Attacks.


2 forms of teleportation

I might be missing something, but the one granted by the Blink Shirt seems to be strictly better and the Shadow Jump thus becomes redundant.


3 Shadow minions

I am almost certain, that you only get one Shadow Companion from a 3.5 Shadowdancer and in my opinion it's an XP drain.


Then you just focus on the standard archery feats/styles/what-have-you.

Unless we're talking about the Feat Rogue, you're gonna struggle a lot with your feat selection. After spending 3 feats to qualify for Shadowdancer and another feat on the Blink Shirt, focusing on a feat intensive combat style is going to be a pain.


I'm going to play it myself if my current character dies in RL, which means I'm going to be driving the DM nuts and making the other players rofl the night away.

Don't let me stop you, though. If it works for you and your group, then everything's fine and you can ignore the above.

[Dayaz]

HiPS is great and Darkvision might be handy, but the Shadowdancer's Evasion is redundant (this can be solved by a Rogue's ACF, but then you won't get Evasion till level 12). It also requires 2 crappy feats (1 can be bought as an armor special ability) and a feat that relies on AoOs, that you'll have hard time getting as an archer.

I don't really see the appeal of Combat Trapsmith, but I'd say it's for fluff reasons.

Also, your Sneak Attack progression will stop at +3d6.

As a side note, it's a pity you can't bind the Blink Shirt to Heart Chakra, that blinking effect would be golden to easily qualify for ranged Sneak Attacks.



I might be missing something, but the one granted by the Blink Shirt seems to be strictly better and the Shadow Jump thus becomes redundant.



I am almost certain, that you only get one Shadow Companion from a 3.5 Shadowdancer and in my opinion it's an XP drain.

I forgot about the feat taxes for Shadow dancer and that the 3.5 on only gave 1 shadow. The traps for combat trapsmith is that some of them can make the opponent lose the benefit of their dex, letting you set up ranged SA easier. Also, while weak, a shadow isn't a xp waste because unless the opponent uses a ghost touch weapon, at best they still have a 50% miss chance with magic weapon. Also, I went for two forms of teleports because I think a concentrated dispel can either cancel or suppress the blink dog shirt :)

Unless we're talking about the Feat Rogue, you're gonna struggle a lot with your feat selection. After spending 3 feats to qualify for Shadowdancer and another feat on the Blink Shirt, focusing on a feat intensive combat style is going to be a pain.



Don't let me stop you, though. If it works for you and your group, then everything's fine and you can ignore the above.


I forgot about the feat taxes for Shadow dancer and that the 3.5 on only gave 1 shadow. The traps for combat trapsmith is that some of them can make the opponent lose the benefit of their dex, letting you set up ranged SA easier. And they're cheap. Also, while weak, a shadow isn't a xp waste because unless the opponent uses a ghost touch weapon, at best they still have a 50% miss chance with magic weapon (in corporeal ftw). Also, I went for two forms of teleports because I think a concentrated dispel can either cancel or suppress the blink dog shirt :)

The feat rogue could definitely be a thing in 3.5, I'm guilty of the fact that this character is originally designed as a pathfinder pita for my dm lmao

[dehro]

so, if anybody's interested, I'm keeping a diary of the campaign from the viewpoint of my character who finds himself in a foreign country, searching for his mother who has not returned home from exploring the area on behalf of the Killoren people.
here it is (http://bit.ly/1BqwAgo), yes it's one gaming session and yes, the form and language are occasionally a bit odd, somewhat on purpose, due to the fact that it was not written in English originally and because "common" isn't Akerdan's first language either, which I'm trying to convey.

on a more on topic point, I await confirmation that we levelled up and if that's the case, I think I'll be sticking to a second level of Scout.

[DEMON]

on a more on topic point, I await confirmation that we levelled up and if that's the case, I think I'll be sticking to a second level of Scout.

If you're willing to stay a single-classed character, in order to avoid XP penalties for multi-classing, the Scout bonus feats help with the brutal feat tax the archery style requires - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot Manyshot, Greater Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Woodland Archer, Improved Skirmish all are a required/recommended feats for a Skirmisher, or an Archer in general.

But be advised that you will struggle with your accuracy (with a 3/4 BAB and a to-hit penalty imposed by Manyshot, or a milder one from Precise Shot) and damage output (especially against enemies immune to extra damage Skirmish).

Even if you were to skip the Ranger levels, a level or a few of Simple Druid or could help you with the latter issue, as it gives you a Favored enemy class feature and thus qualifies you for the Swift Hunter (which would be another feat added to the feat tax).

[dehro]

I'm not dead set on avoiding the ranger class.. I'll probably end up taking it and taking the xp penalty in stride..
anyway, it doesn't really matter all that much.. and I have a feeling my character will die well before penalties become a real pain in the butt.

[DEMON]

Scout 1 / Ranger 2 / Scout +2 / Ranger +2 / Scout +1 gets you to level 8 w/out any penalty for Ranger 4 / Scout 4. Feat wise, it gives you Rapid Shot at level 3 (Ranger bonus feat) and allows you to take Swift Hunter at level 6 and Improved Skirmish at 8 (Scout bonus feat).

Feats for levels 1 and 3 should be Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and I'd probably go for Woodland Archer at level 9.

Though this progression delays your Manyshot to level 10 (allowing you to take Greater Manyshot to 12) and Improved Precise Shot to level 15, if you continue leveling Ranger from level 9 onwards.

[Darrin]

Scout 1 / Ranger 2 / Scout +2 / Ranger +2 / Scout +1 gets you to level 8 w/out any penalty for Ranger 4 / Scout 4. Feat wise, it gives you Rapid Shot at level 3 (Ranger bonus feat) and allows you to take Swift Hunter at level 6 and Improved Skirmish at 8 (Scout bonus feat).

Feats for levels 1 and 3 should be Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and I'd probably go for Woodland Archer at level 9.

Though this progression delays your Manyshot to level 10 (allowing you to take Greater Manyshot to 12) and Improved Precise Shot to level 15, if you continue leveling Ranger from level 9 onwards.

If you're willing to lose your Ranger spellcasting, you can take Manyshot at Ranger 4 with the Champion of the Wild ACF (Dungeonscape). Then you can take Greater Manyshot at 9th. From Scout 4/Ranger 5, you can go into Highland Stalker (Complete Adventurer), which advances skirmish damage about the same rate as Scout/Swift Hunter. Actually, a Scout 4/Ranger 5/Highland Stalker 10 winds up with 6d6 skirmish, which is better than Scout 20 or a Scout 4/Ranger 20 Swift Hunter. Finish off with Scout 5, or dip something else... no more need to worry about XP penalties, unless you're going epic.

[DEMON]

If you're willing to lose your Ranger spellcasting, you can take Manyshot at Ranger 4 with the Champion of the Wild ACF (Dungeonscape). Then you can take Greater Manyshot at 9th. From Scout 4/Ranger 5, you can go into Highland Stalker (Complete Adventurer), which advances skirmish damage about the same rate as Scout/Swift Hunter. Actually, a Scout 4/Ranger 5/Highland Stalker 10 winds up with 6d6 skirmish, which is better than Scout 20 or a Scout 4/Ranger 20 Swift Hunter. Finish off with Scout 5, or dip something else... no more need to worry about XP penalties, unless you're going epic.

A simple change, I like it.

Even though you lose a bit on skill points and only get 3 Favored enemies, so choose wisely. Also, the loss of archery maneuvers spells hurts. On the other hand, this helps your BAB and skirmish damage, which is always good.

And some minor corrections: Champion of the Wild if from Complete Champion, the Dungeonscape ACF for Rangers is Trap Expert. And the Scout 4/Ranger 20 Swift Hunter build is actually supposed to be Scout 4 / Ranger 16, but that's obviously a typo and everythin else is spot on.

As a side note: If the final build is supposed to be Ranger 5 / Scout 5 / HS 10, I'd go Scout 1 / Ranger 2 / Scout +2 Ranger +2 / Scout +2 / Ranger +1 / HS 10, for earlier access to Evasion and 3rd FE. Scout 5 at level 20 gives gives next to nothing. (I understand this delays the skirmish progression, but I'd say it's worth it in the long run)

[dehro]

for ingame reasons I'll be going
1 scout
2 scout
3 ranger... with the rest to be determined, but I'm liking the last few ideas.. or I would, if someone would tell me what ACF stands for... I am not sure how variants from Unearthed Arcana would go down with the DM though, so I'll find that out as we go along.. given my previous track record however, there's a really good chance that I'll never reach the high levels with this character, so I'm not going to get overly attached to one option or the other.

[Sian]

Alternate Class Feature

[DEMON]

or I would, if someone would tell me what ACF stands for...

Alternative Class Feature - trade a class feature for a different one, from a list. They are all over the various splatbooks (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=an64dfnf5msec0j7c5g1vl8p80&topic=7908) (mostly Unearthed Arcana).

Edit: Partially Shadow Sun Ninja'ed

[Seharvepernfan]

Consider Unseen Seer. It will progress your skirmish damage faster than scout itself. If you already have a wizard in the party, consider getting into unseen seer through beguiler. Beguiler does not have survival, but does have open lock. Unseen Seer has neither traps nor tracking related skills, so be aware of that.

Regardless, I'd go with elf. I'd put that 18 in Int and the 15 in Dex, then continue raising dex at every opportunity. You'll need the high Int for skill points if you want to be well-rounded. See if you can take Keen Intellect; it will really keep your MAD down and is a solid boost.

If not, then:

1 - Track
3 - PBS
4 - Precise Shot
6 - Expeditious Dodge
8 - Mobility
9 - Shot on the Run
if you go full scout

Flaws will really help.

Balance/Climb/Jump/Tumble/Disable Device/Open Lock/Search/Listen/Spot/Survival/Hide/Move Silently
would be my picks for skills, maybe dropping balance after 5 ranks to get sense motive
open lock will be cross class