Pathfinder: Does a staff actually have to be a stick?

[caggles]

I've been thinking a bit about the Craft Staff feat. Obviously the real power/benefit of the staff comes from the spells placed into what amounts to a fancy stick. But I have to wonder... does the "holder" of that power have to be a stick?

In the game that I'm playing, the DM has already ruled that magical items don't necessarily have to fill the same slot as the "traditional" item, as long as the slot makes sense (Not into making your Belt of Giant's Strength a belt? Fine, make it Bracers. On the other hand, don't try to get away with Boots of Intelligence).

Given that house rule, does it make sense to allow a staff to be something else? Like a sword? Could a magus, for example, wield a Scimitar of Many Rays? It's not so much a question of lore or flavour (given the house rule, we've already agreed that it makes logical sense to allow this). More to the point, we're concerned about balance. We can't think of any way that this would break the game.

What do you guys think? Is this a terrible idea waiting to happen?

[Flickerdart]

Given that a staff is already a weapon, putting it into a different weapon shouldn't break things too badly. The worst that happens is fancy swordknights being able to cast staff spells without sheathing their sword first.

[Deophaun]

There is already a rule in 3.5 that pretty much covers this which you might want to import into PF:


Creating a magic item in an alternate form is generally not as efficient as using the standard design... Crafting an item in an alternate form thus requires that a spellcaster possess both the standard creation feat for the item’s original form and the Craft Wondrous Item feat...

Now, this is in regards to potions and scrolls, but I see no reason why it can't be applied to wands and staffs. The important part is just that the new form follows the same basic rules as the old (e.g. you still need to hold the non-staff to use it).

[Flickerdart]

The important part is just that the new form follows the same basic rules as the old (e.g. you still need to hold the non-staff to use it).
Buttplug of the archmagi? :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Buttplug of the archmagi? :smallamused:

Fister Gauntlet of the Archmagi.

[(Un)Inspired]

Why do boots of intelligence make less sense than a headband of intelligence?

[Cirrylius]

Why do boots of intelligence make less sense than a headband of intelligence?

I feel like you only asked this question so you could reply with a "both feet on the ground" play on words.

[Strigon]

Why do boots of intelligence make less sense than a headband of intelligence?

You don't wear boots on your head, which is where your brain is.
On the other hand, bracer's of Giant's Strength still have muscles to boost.

[(Un)Inspired]

I feel like you only asked this question so you could reply with a "both feet on the ground" play on words.

Hehe no I wasn't thinking that but it's clever nonetheless.

[Greenish]

Boots of Intellect make you good at thinking on your feet, obviously.

[Ashtagon]

Why do boots of intelligence make less sense than a headband of intelligence?

For some characters, underpants of Intelligence would make perfect sense.

[(Un)Inspired]

You don't wear boots on your head, which is where your brain is.
On the other hand, bracer's of Giant's Strength still have muscles to boost.

What is the connection between the location a magic item rests upon and the magic that it offers? Why does a magic item that boost intelligence need to be near where ones brain is? If it does need to be near, how near does it need to be? Why is that proximity the necessary proximity for it to make sense?

[Nibbens]

I once had my players flavor-text every magic item they bought/made to fit into the clockwork/technology setting. A +1 shock sword had a place for batteries, etc etc. I didn't make them actually recharge any of the items (via those batteries) or anything, but the flavor was fun and made for more roleplay stuff.

So, I'd say your DM's on the right track and I say it doesn't break the game.

Although, I'm sure there are others who would disagree with me...

[Ashtagon]

What is the connection between the location a magic item rests upon and the magic that it offers? Why does a magic item that boost intelligence need to be near where ones brain is? If it does need to be near, how near does it need to be? Why is that proximity the necessary proximity for it to make sense?

It is a nod to some traditional beliefs regarding laws of magic, specifically in this case the "law of association".

[(Un)Inspired]

It is a nod to some traditional beliefs regarding laws of magic, specifically in this case the "law of association".

I'm not sure how a headband of intellect follows any of the laws of association. It's doesn't follow similarity, contiguity, repetition or attention.

Is there another law that I'm unfamiliar with that it does follow?

[Ashtagon]

I'm not sure how a headband of intellect follows any of the laws of association. It's doesn't follow similarity, contiguity, repetition or attention.

Is there another law that I'm unfamiliar with that it does follow?

A contiguity is a continuous mass, or a series of things in contact or in proximity.

Pretty sure that when a headband is worn properly, it is contiguous with the head.

[(Un)Inspired]

A contiguity is a continuous mass, or a series of things in contact or in proximity.

Pretty sure that when a headband is worn properly, it is contiguous with the head.

How does the headband have contiguity with the mind?

And if it does, how does it have it in a way that a boot would not?

[Hiro Protagonest]

You don't wear boots on your head, which is where your brain is.

You just don't have a big enough boot. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Fact: Discretion is the better part of valor.
Fact: Discretion is a sign of intelligence.
Thus, running away is smart, and therefore boots make you smarter.

[Psyren]

The short answer to the OP's question is no, it doesn't, but of course you need GM approval to do anything like this as you're essentially making a custom item. But there are guidelines and caveats (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/magicItemCreation.html#altering-existing-items) for this sort of thing in Ultimate Campaign.


Altering Existing Items
The Core Rulebook doesn't allow item creation feats to alter the physical nature of an item, its default size, its shape, or its magical properties. For example, there is no mechanism for using crafting feats to change a steel +1 longsword into an adamantine +1 longsword, a Large +1 chain shirt into a Medium +1 chain shirt, boots of speed into an amulet of speed, or a +1 unholy longsword into a +1 flaming shock longsword. Many GMs might decide that these kinds of transformations are impossible, beyond the scope of mortals, or not as cost-efficient as crafting a new item from scratch. Others might allow these sorts of transformations for free or a small surcharge. Keep in mind the following warnings.

Not All Item Slots Have Equal Value: This is true, even though it isn't expressed monetarily in the rules. Some item slots are very common and are shared by many useful items (boots, belts, rings, and amulets in particular), while some slots are used by only a few items (such as body, chest, and eyes). Allowing a character to alter or craft an item for one of these underused slots is allowing the character to bypass built-in choices between popular items.

Some Abilities Are Assigned to Certain Slots: Some of the magic items in the Core Rulebook are deliberately assigned to specific magic item slots for balance purposes, so that you have to make hard choices about what items to wear. In particular, the magic belts and circlets that give enhancement bonuses to ability scores are in this category—characters who want to enhance multiple physical or mental ability scores must pay extra for combination items like a belt of physical might or headband of mental prowess.

If there is a trend of all Core Rulebook items of a particular type using a particular slot (such as items that grant physical ability score bonuses being belts or items that grant movement bonuses being boots), GMs should be hesitant to allow you to move those abilities to other slots; otherwise, they ignore these deliberate restrictions by cheaply spreading out these items over unused slots.

Classes Value Some Slots More Than Others: This is a combination of the two previous warnings. Because most belts enhance physical abilities, wizards rarely have need for standard belt items. This means a wizard can change an item that's useful to wizards into a belt and not have to worry about a future slot conflict by discovering a wizardly magic belt in a treasure hoard. Likewise, fighters have little use for most standard head items, so altering an existing fighter item to use the head slot means it has little risk of competition from found head slot items. GMs should consider carefully before allowing you to bypass these intentional, built-in item slot restrictions.

Respect Each Crafting Feat's Niche: You might be tempted to create rings that have charges like wands, or bracers with multiple charge-based effects like staves. A GM allowing this makes Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring even more versatile and powerful, and devalues Craft Staff and Craft Wand because those two feats can create only charged items.

Before allowing such an item, consider whether the reverse idea would be appropriate—if someone with Craft Wand can't make a wand of protection +1 that grants a deflection bonus like a ring of protection +1, and if someone with Craft Staff can't make a handy haverstaff that stores items like a handy haversack, then Craft Wondrous Item and Forge Ring shouldn't be able to poach item types from the other feats.

GMs who wish to allow some of these sorts of alterations should consider using the original item as a talismanic component for the final item (see page 173).

What all that text means is basically - proceed with caution, but obviously, the GM can do whatever the GM wants to do.

[Deophaun]

Buttplug of the archmagi? :smallamused:
Great. Now it's not only the Paladin who has a stick up his ***.

[Ashtagon]

How does the headband have contiguity with the mind?

And if it does, how does it have it in a way that a boot would not?

I don't think I can explain the details of traditional ideas of magic without violating forum rules.

[(Un)Inspired]

I don't think I can explain the details of traditional ideas of magic without violating forum rules.

Well I definitely don't want that.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it some more.

[caggles]

I'm not sure how a headband of intellect follows any of the laws of association. It's doesn't follow similarity, contiguity, repetition or attention.

Is there another law that I'm unfamiliar with that it does follow?

I've found that, generally speaking, most of the items make some sort of sense when it comes to their slot. Headband of Intelligence is on the head, where your brain is. Belt of Strength is near your core/center of mass. Items that grant sights tend to be helms, monocles or glasses of some type. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but I have yet to run into such an item that made me think immediately that the slot lacked a certain intuitiveness. And basically this was the DM's way of gaining some veto power over the slot without simply saying "Because I said so" (not that that's not a valid thing for a DM to say, just that it's less satisfying than having a rule of thumb to follow). The intent of the rule was to help someone who really wanted two magic items that happened to exist exclusively for the same slot, not to let us cheese our way into filling all the slots with the most ideal enchantments possible :P

[Flickerdart]

Belt of Strength is near your core/center of mass.
It's only a belt for +4 or +6. For +2 it's gauntlets...that somehow make your kicks stronger.

[animewatcha]

For some characters, underpants of Intelligence would make perfect sense.

For other characters, their underwear of charisma allows them to convince to Nethys to give up on all aspects of magic.

[goto124]

I once wore underpants on my head. In-game only, luckily.

[Coidzor]

How does the headband have contiguity with the mind?

And if it does, how does it have it in a way that a boot would not?

:smallconfused: I don't know about contiguity or anything of that like, but the base reason why magic that improves intellect would be assumed to go on or near the head, at least by default, is... Well, I'd have said it was self-evident. :smallconfused:

The default assumption is humanoids. Humanoids typically have brains or brain analogues that they keep in their heads. These brains or brain analogues are what does the thinking, at least for living, corporeal humanoids in 99% of cases.

Ergo, magicking up something to help a creature's thinking, it'd make sense to put it on the place that does the thinking for the creature, but, well, opening up someone's skull to get at their brain meats is a bit invasive and messy and has lots of complications, possibly even with healing magic on the table, so putting it on the head without invasive surgical implantation is just as well, especially since one can then switch out the magic item for another one without having to cut back through the scalp and skull.

There's also something about sympathetic magic that'd pertain here, but I don't really understand sympathetic magic well enough to explain it all that well without bringing up one or another of various real world religions, sorry. The wikipedia article is a little bit opaque, but might prove useful. :/


I once wore underpants on my head. In-game only, luckily.

Some boxer-shorts and two pairs of garish, mis-matched socks (or one pair if they come pre-mismatched) with a little bit of sewing or safety-pinning and maybe some stuffing makes for an excellent impromptu jester's cap. :smallsmile:


Buttplug of the archmagi? :smallamused:


Fister Gauntlet of the Archmagi.

I'm sure we could think of something much more appropriate to BoEF if we really put our heads together. :smallwink:


For some characters, underpants of Intelligence would make perfect sense.

The only problem for Bards is that they'd compete with their lingerie of Charisma unless they wanted to combine the properties on the same item.

[(Un)Inspired]

I believe intelligence is an attribute of the mind, not of the brain; although I lack the ability to declare dualism to be correct.

Coidzor, you say that it makes sense for a magic item that improves thinking to be located near the organ responsible for intellect. Why?

You claim it's self evident, perhaps it is for most people and I'm just a little thick. Why is proximity key?

If proximity to the brain is the reason that an item of intellect goes on the head how is it decided that the forehead is an appropriate distance away from the brain to function?

How is it determined that boots, the example that the OP used, are of an inappropriate proximity?

[Milo v3]

I believe intelligence is an attribute of the mind, not of the brain; although I lack the ability to declare dualism to be correct.

Coidzor, you say that it makes sense for a magic item that improves thinking to be located near the organ responsible for intellect. Why?

You claim it's self evident, perhaps it is for most people and I'm just a little thick. Why is proximity key?

If proximity to the brain is the reason that an item of intellect goes on the head how is it decided that the forehead is an appropriate distance away from the brain to function?

How is it determined that boots, the example that the OP used, are of an inappropriate proximity?

Because magic is symbolic, feet are not primarily associated with thought but the head is. Story-wise, it rarely makes sense to have shoes that bestow intelligence. Feet are much more associated with speed, modes of travel, dancing, kicks, etc. So the effects of shoes would be likely be based around those associations.

[(Un)Inspired]

Because magic is symbolic, feet are not primarily associated with thought but the head is. Story-wise, it rarely makes sense to have shoes that bestow intelligence. Feet are much more associated with speed, modes of travel, dancing, kicks, etc. So the effects of shoes would be likely be based around those associations.

So if the in game culture changed in such a way that heads were no longer symbolically associated with intellect then headbands of intellect would no long work?

[Milo v3]

So if the in game culture changed in such a way that heads were no longer symbolically associated with intellect then headbands of intellect would no long work?

I would assume so.

[animewatcha]

You mean that some people can't have their nose ring of enlightenment?

[(Un)Inspired]

I would assume so.

Ok, cool, I think I can wrap my head around that.

Actually that could be kinda cool to have happen in game... Maybe less so if it destroys a bunch if pc's magic items

[Erik Vale]

Buttplug of the archmagi? :smallamused:

You almost made me spray food on my keyboard...
You know, the BoEF probably has that as a slot...

[Coidzor]

I believe intelligence is an attribute of the mind, not of the brain; although I lack the ability to declare dualism to be correct.

Well, that is tricky at times, yes, but there's generally some association between the brain and thinking and the mind, and from what I recall, especially of psionic fluff and the various brain-stealing and brain-eating parasites, some level of associating the brain with the mind is part of the default fluff of 3.5, at any rate.


Coidzor, you say that it makes sense for a magic item that improves thinking to be located near the organ responsible for intellect. Why?

You claim it's self evident, perhaps it is for most people and I'm just a little thick. Why is proximity key?

If proximity to the brain is the reason that an item of intellect goes on the head how is it decided that the forehead is an appropriate distance away from the brain to function?

How is it determined that boots, the example that the OP used, are of an inappropriate proximity?

I honestly don't really have much of an idea about why they went with headbands for the default version of the Int-boosting head-slot item, other than that they might've shied away from helmets for reasons of mages and armor in the early concerns of the system's development. Possibly there's some kind of real world belief or practice that they drew upon for inspiration for the headband of intellect. I know I'm not particularly married to it or anything.

As far as why on the head is more kosher than on the feet, I'd say it's the same kind of thinking that leads to people erroneously believing that having a shorter cord on an appliance means that the electricity will work better because it doesn't have as far to travel in addition to the whole topic of the head as the seat of reason/thinking for the corporeally bound person.

Sure, I can accept magic as being, well, magic, but in terms of thematics, well, the head is the seat of reason in the body, so putting the thing to boost the body's reason on the head just fits really well. And if the world is at least partially run by narrativium I can see why it'd be a bit easier/cheaper to have magical properties boost things where they thematically best fit in.

[Sam K]

For some characters, underpants of Intelligence would make perfect sense.

I want to make a "loincloth of improved initiative" joke, but I don't think I can without breaking some forum rules.

[goto124]

My lady barbarian would totally wear that loincloth.