Epicac and exlax. How to?

[The Shadowdove]

hey guys,

So... This is my story.

Our party rogue is a very unpleasant person when he feels he's been wronged. And he has become a poisoner.
He's killed people or paralyzed them for his own forms of revenge...
And somehow he's gotten it into his mind that he wants to use ipecac and exlax in his arsenal.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrup_of_ipecac

Ipecac is used to induce vomiting .
Exlax is famous for its use in causing diarrhea.

In real life, both are incredibly potent. So much that ipecac was taken from the list of recommended remedies for certain things. Such as poisons or stomach sicknesses.

How would I use these in my game, were they allowed?

The dc, duration, and actual d&d translated effects are all very difficult for me, being a relatively inexperienced dm.

I'd love to see how you all would do it in your games.
It's alwas amusing to see what people with the mind for it can come up with when put to the task.

Thanks in advance,

-Dove

[Alejandro]

A healer's kit probably has some more primitive/organic version of both. Not sure why your rogue wants that, though; if they're already a fairly sick murderer/person who permanently disables others, it seems tame. Lemme guess, fairly young player?

[The Shadowdove]

A healer's kit probably has some more primitive/organic version of both. Not sure why your rogue wants that, though; if they're already a fairly sick murderer/person who permanently disables others, it seems tame. Lemme guess, fairly young player?

21
So kinda, kinda not.
I doubt he will use it constantly. But it's something he wouldn't mind having.

It struck me as odd enough to deserve an answer.

[kaoskonfety]

Ipecac - I'd be tossed between stunned or just using the "Poisoned" condition for its effects - at a glance its 18th century medicine so you are well within your rights in a medieval game to veto it being readily available or available at all, granted something that makes people vomit uncontrollably could be "many ingested toxins". Eyeballing it I might set 2 saves, one easy (6-8) to avoid being stunned for a few rounds, the other medium (12-14) to avoid being "poisoned" for a minute or 2.

As for laxatives; these are everywhere, Exlax specifically is also rather modern but there are *many* other options. Aside from the obvious physical effects the "poisoned" condition again seems to apply - some disadvantage, but you are not incapacitated or crippled, just not happy, not happy at all. the "save" here would not to be to avoid the primary effect but the poisoned condition, to tough it out as it were... either way, ew.

Both of these are far more useful for political assassination than making bodies stop working. Generally both would be associated with illness (plague?) or excess drink.

[theMycon]

I'd like to point out that both of these will kill a healthy adult at much lower doses than you would expect.

The real-world fatal medical dose is going to be wholly irrelevant; if the active ingredient in ex-lax were pure, a ml be more than enough. The Fantasy-world fatal dose is "the moment you feel the player is making others uncomfortable."

[Daishain]

The medicine derived from Ipecac root is very much watered down. A relatively pure infusion, which would not be that difficult to obtain and make if the plants are available at all, is quite poisonous, and more than suitable for completely disabling someone for quite a while. I'd make it a con check to avoid being paralyzed (flavored as curled up and retching, too weak to really move) for something like 6*1d4 hours. Success still means eating a poisoned condition for a similar period of time. Possibly toss in a check to avoid outright death if HP is particularly low. Then again, I'm of the opinion that poisons in general are stupidly weak in this edition, so take my analysis with a grain of salt.

The prime ingredient of Ex-Lax is also derived from a fairly common plant. But it's natural form makes for a poor poison. Death can come from abuse, but it takes multiple doses over a long period of time to do much more than ruin the poor guy's trouser's and make him miserable. Of course, that can be effective in conjunction with something else, just lay a trap in the lavoratory, or use it to make sure a certain guard is running away from his post at the right time.

TheMycon is correct in that pure concentrations of the right chemicals are much more deadly in both cases. However, this era doesn't have the level of chemistry available to pull that off. You can only slip so much into someone's drink without them noticing (hmm, I'm fairly certain this ale wasn't purple before...), and when only 1/30th of your mix is active...

As for the actual availability. That's largely up to you. There is bound to be some equivalent plant well known to healers, after all, both types of medicine are commonly prescribed treatments almost no matter what level of medical science we're talking about. Of course, I'm not entirely sure I would WANT this guy to expand on such tools. But hey, not my game.

Honestly however, there are a lot of much more effective and easy to use poisons out there. Take cyanide for instance. It can be found in a dozen or so different plants that I know of, and a few have high enough concentrations to make distillation not strictly necessary (though still recommended)

[JDL]

If I was a DM and my player asked to have these, I'd use the following method to decide on the details of the item.

First, let's define their effects in the game as translated from their real world applications. Both are ingested in order to have their effect, thus these would be ingested poisons rather than contact, inhaled or injury. They cause nausea and vomiting or diarrhoea respectively. I consider these as very similar conditions when translated into the game world where bowel habits are abstracted, so let's look for this as our effect of both poisons.

Second, we need a price, save DC and crafting DC. The easiest way is to copy that of an existing poison. Looking in the Arms and Equipment Guide from 3.5e, Retch is a DC 15 ingested poison with a DC 15 Craft requirement and costs 120 gp per dose. The primary effect is nausea, the secondary effect is 1d4 Con damage. This seems to fit the bill for our poison quite well.

So I'd tell my player they can buy Ipecac or Senna (the active plant ingredient in Ex-lax) in concentrated form sufficient to cause severe nausea and possibly Con damage at a cost of 120 gp per dose. Purifying the plant into a concentrate would require a DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check and use the standard rules for crafting items (with the caveat that the result is in gp per week and raw materials cost anywhere between one sixth and three quarters the base price depending on availability as per the Arms and Equipment Guide).

If they ask me about diluting the effect, I'd say that dilution may or may not cause the target to develop symptoms of gastric upset, but these would have no in game effect aside from the roleplaying aspect unless the player uses the full dose.

[burninatortrog]

If it were me:

Ipecac: DC 15 Constitution save or poisoned for 1d4 hours, plus any consequences of getting vomit everywhere.

Exlax: As Ipecac, with appropriately altered fluff.

[Feddlefew]

Ipecac does other things besides induce vomiting. It interferes with smooth muscle contractions, causing heart failure in large doses or with frequent use, which is why it's not used anymore.

Edit: So it's more like "1 hour later, make DC 5 for saving throw to not keel over dead, increase DC by 5 for each dose ingested."

[JDL]

In real life Viper poison does more than cause Con damage too. Nevertheless the game system abstracts the realities of poisons to a system of status conditions. I think the effects of nausea and Con damage accurately translates the poison effects of a high dose of ipecac.

[Feddlefew]

In real life Viper poison does more than cause Con damage too. Nevertheless the game system abstracts the realities of poisons to a system of status conditions. I think the effects of nausea and Con damage accurately translates the poison effects of a high dose of ipecac.

Naussia, profuse sweating, and vomiting are the side effects of ipecac's toxicity, not the other way around. It really is fort-save-or-die at even slightly higher than medicinal doses or with frequent use in real life, which is why it's been phased out in favor of activated charcoal. It's not something to be used for ****s and giggles unless someone's evil and doesn't care about killing people.

[JDL]

The only difference between a drug and a poison is the dose. For example, foxglove extract is sold under the drug name digoxin, which is used at therapeutic doses to control irregular heartbeat but can quickly cause cardiac arrest when taken in toxic doses. Since there's no rules governing heart failure in D&D, Con damage is usually the most appropriate abstraction. Since ipecac is well known for causing nausea this would be appropriate as the primary effect of the poison, and Con damage to simulate the toxic effect on the body for a secondary save. If we are to assume that any poison in the game should accurately mirror the effect of those in real life, almost all poisonous compounds would simply be "save or die" effects.