Sundering?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey giantitp peeps.

Forgive me if I hadn't looked hard enough, but I cannot find the rules for sundering anywhere.

I have situations where someone wants to break an enemies object/weapon/something sticking out of the wall/etc where there's not much I can do but have them roll against a made up ac and hp.

Is there's aomewhere I can find hardiness/hp charts for weapons and common objects?

And I have a player who uses a whip. Of course even somewhat experienced combatants are going to try cutting it.
So far we've just been giving it the typical rope hp of 2 and an ac of 14.
The sunderer attacks a weapon or object instead.

Things like a common longsword had an ac of 12 hardness of 6 and hp of 4.

Is it just homeruled, am I just failing horribly at finding things?


thanks for your replies.


-Dove

[CrusaderJoe]

AFB but sundering is in the DMG.

[The Shadowdove]

AFB but sundering is in the DMG.

Hey thank you.

I thought it might be in the player handbook like previous editions..

I did look through the dmg quickly, but the search must have been weak in me at the time.

Btw, what's afb?

[Jbr208]

AFB: Away from Book.
I don't know about sundering exactly, but there is information about objects having HP and AC starting on page 246.

[Laurefindel]

Btw, what's afb?

Away From Book, i believe...

[CrusaderJoe]

It seems like Sunder is not in the DMG, at least in the Combat Option section.

We do get Disarm, which really is better than sundering since you get to keep the item afterwards.

Attack Roll versus Athletics or Acrobatics. This is a contest.

I'll look for Sunder but I'm not sure where it will be.

[Jeraa]

Dungeon Masters Guide, page 246-247, gives some rules for damaging objects. They aren't sunder rules, but give some guidelines.

It gives unattended objects and AC - you could just add the wielders Dexterity modifier to the objects AC to determine how hard it is to hit.

[CrusaderJoe]

Dungeon Masters Guide, page 246-247, gives some rules for damaging objects. They aren't sunder rules, but give some guidelines.

It gives unattended objects and AC - you could just add the wielders Dexterity modifier to the objects AC to determine how hard it is to hit.

I would say make it a bit more simple than that because then you will have ACs for some items higher than most monsters.

Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics.

Fragile gives disadvantage. This shouldn't come up all that much.

If you successfully hit then you damage the object. The object has normal HP + Dex mod of wielder (hitting objects in certain ways makes it easier to break, this shows the wielder is holding it in such a way that it isn't easy to break).

So a rogue with +4 Dex and a resilient dagger would have a dagger with 9 HP. A Bard wants to sunder said dagger so uses Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics with a short sword (+3 str). The Bard is successful and rolls 1d6 + 3. If the Bard rolls max then the object is broken.

The rogue could still use a broken item as a weapon but it counts as an improvised weapon. For other items it is up to DM what happens. Armor that have been sundered has the AC reduced by 2?

[Malifice]

I would make it an attack roll contested by an attack roll.

On a success, the item is damaged as per item HP and hardness in the DMG. Rule re: Magic weapons on the fly.

If you want a penalty for failure, you could rule that on a failure, the person who attempted the sunder has his own weapon damaged.

[CrusaderJoe]

I would make it an attack roll contested by an attack roll.

On a success, the item is damaged as per item HP and hardness in the DMG. Rule re: Magic weapons on the fly.

If you want a penalty for failure, you could rule that on a failure, the person who attempted the sunder has his own weapon damaged.

I would like to say I'm not a fan of sundering in battle for weapon versus weapon. There are many reasons this sucks, look into 3.5 threads for a very in depth reason why it sucks.

[Jeraa]

I would say make it a bit more simple than that because then you will have ACs for some items higher than most monsters.

Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics.

Fragile gives disadvantage. This shouldn't come up all that much.

If you successfully hit then you damage the object. The object has normal HP + Dex mod of wielder (hitting objects in certain ways makes it easier to break, this shows the wielder is holding it in such a way that it isn't easy to break).

So a rogue with +4 Dex and a resilient dagger would have a dagger with 9 HP. A Bard wants to sunder said dagger so uses Athletics versus Athletics or Acrobatics with a short sword (+3 str). The Bard is successful and rolls 1d6 + 3. If the Bard rolls max then the object is broken.

The rogue could still use a broken item as a weapon but it counts as an improvised weapon. For other items it is up to DM what happens. Armor that have been sundered has the AC reduced by 2?

Using the Armor Class as written (+ the wielders Dex mod) represents how hard the various materials are to damage. Remember, there is no Hardness score in 5e (Damage threshold only applies to bigger objects), and the objects have the same HP regardless of what material they are made of. You need some way to represent the fact that some materials are harder or easier to destroy than others, which is what the AC by material table represents.

Sundering an item should be harder than hitting most monsters. Items are smaller targets, and made of more durable materials (metal instead of flesh).

[Malifice]

I would like to say I'm not a fan of sundering in battle for weapon versus weapon. There are many reasons this sucks, look into 3.5 threads for a very in depth reason why it sucks.

That's why you have a penalty for failure; you damage your own weapon.

[CrusaderJoe]

That's why you have a penalty for failure; you damage your own weapon.

And a penalty for success. A penalty for failure is quite absurd.

If you fail, you miss. The penalty is you wasted your action. Anything more than that is just bad design.

[Malifice]

And a penalty for success

What penalty for success are you talking about?

[CrusaderJoe]

What penalty for success are you talking about?

Less loot to sell, loss of a new weapon, loss of a magic item, and or your DM using the same tactics against you that you use against enemies (because the world should react in some way).

Seriously, Google or search around the 3.5 thread for why sundering sucks... There have been a multitude of threads that explain why it is horrible. I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

[Malifice]

Less loot to sell, loss of a new weapon, loss of a magic item, and or your DM using the same tactics against you that you use against enemies (because the world should react in some way).

Seriously, Google or search around the 3.5 thread for why sundering sucks... There have been a multitude of threads that explain why it is horrible. I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

Are mundane weapons that bad to not be able to sell, or that hard to replace? How many magical weapons are there in 5th edition anyway?

[goto124]

Might as well disarm and take the weapon, instead of sundering...

[CrusaderJoe]

Might as well disarm and take the weapon, instead of sundering...

Exactly.

Disarming is actually viable in this edition! What with the free Use an Object action you have and how Contests work.

If you grab expertise? Forget about it, nothing will be able to stop you from disarming them. And because it doesn't take character options or other resources, when you start running into a ton of enemies that don't have weapons (very possible in D&D) you won't have painted yourself in a trap corner and feel useless.

@Malifice

Depends on what options you want to take. You could setup your own shop and have a hireling clean up and sell the weapons you find (no need for a Smythe this way). You could help outfit smaller villages so they won't have to rely on pitch forks when enemies attack. You could have all the metal melted down and made into barding of some sort for your weird mount... The options are almost limitless when you get that much metal in a game that favored Role Playing.

I had a group once that kept track of the weapons we found. We measured out how much metal. After a year of real world time we had enough to build a metal wall 6" thick, 10' high around our main village.... Yeah we had that many weapons and stuff! Of course we ran into a lot of large and huge creatures too... You could do this with broken pieces I guess but then you still might lose out on some goodies.

The DM loved our idea when we finally told him our plan haha. We ended up making that village one of the best strongholds in the game... Made it where a group of 15 commoners could kill most threats that couldn't just magic away the walls. Yeah, we eventually made a retractable dome with Glyphs of Warding that would mess you up... We did a one shot and played monsters while the DM played the commoners haha.

Anyways, magic items are rare in 5e and for what I can tell so far should be sunderable (which could be a plot point though, getting a flametongue fixed before a fight with a dragon). Also, how do you know you are sundering a normal arcane focus wand or a wand of awesome spells? You could always sunder a wizard's spell book but then your party loses out on selling it or the party wizard can't copy spells from it.

When it comes down to it, sundering is just not worth it when it comes to battle.

[goto124]

What about sundering the monk's weapon, her bare fists? Now that is disarming!

(And turn her detached arm into a +5 magic weapon and make 1001 bad puns. 'Give me a hand!' 'I did it with my bare hands!' *puts arm in backpack* I killed him with one hand behind my back!')