Anachronity
2015-01-20, 10:57 PM
DISCLAIMER: This guide is primarily for my personal use, particularly in Pathfinder Society. Due to this I tend to pay less attention to levels past 12 and to non-PFS-legal or third-party material. Currently this is still a work-in-progress.
This guide is an attempt to figure out exactly which monk archetypes work with which other ones, and how powerful those combinations are. Monk is a pathetic core class in any objective game (keyword OBJECTIVE), and to combat this the folks over at Paizo have made a number of archetypes to try to change this. But what happens if you take two archetypes which make a bad class okay, and combine them? Hopefully we can find the holy grail of monk archetype combos!
Blue is very good
Green is good
Orange is iffy
Red is bad
The Archetypes (have not yet included all Paizo archetypes)
Quingong Monk (UM)
Drunken Master (APG)
Flowing Monk (UC)
Hungry Ghost Monk (APG)
Kata Master (ACG)
Ki Mystic (APG)
Maneuver Master (UC)
Martial Artist (UC)
Master of Many Styles (UC)
Monk of the Four Winds (APG)
Monk of the Healing Hand (APG)
Monk of the Iron Mountain (APG)
Monk of the Lotus (APG)
Monk of the Seven Winds (Inner Sea Guide?)
Sensei (UC)
Sohei (UC)
Tetori (UC)
Weapon Adept (APG)
Zen Archer (APG)
compatible with...
-Master of Many Styles
No real synergy here, but they're both good archetypes. The only downside is that the 5' stagger from Drunken Master isn't as useful without flurry of blows.
-Monk of the Four Winds
Again, no real synergy. Drunken Ki can absorb some of the cost of Slow Time at level 12, but prior to that there's not a lot of interaction between the two.
-Monk of the Iron Mountain
-Monk of the Lotus
-Monk of the Seven Winds
-Sensei
-Weapon Adept
compatible with...
-Monk of the Four Winds
Gain nothing of real interest until 12th level, but also lose nothing. If you've dumped your wisdom then this may be preferable to keeping Stunning Fist. Alternatively you could take a single level of the Unarmed Fighter fighter archetype to gain Marid Style, then use the 5-foot reach for trips. Even if this does work as hoped, you still don't threaten during others' turns like you would with a guisarme.
-Weapon Adept
Perfect Strike limits your choice of weapons in a way that Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't. You're better off without this one.
comments
If you're going for Maneuver Master then your best archetype options are in other classes. The Lore Warden fighter archetype is particularly good, since you don't really care about armor proficiencies and get access to martial weapons for your flurry.
Bonus Feat (level 1, modifies Bonus Feats)
This allows you to function, and it does it well. You may still wish to take Combat Expertise (offered for free by Lore Warden!) to make full use of your later abilities.
Flurry of Maneuvers (level 1, replaces Flurry of Blows)
The calling card of this archetype, the bonus is sadly tied to your monk level. Note that this is not by any means the flurry of blows ability, and it lacks many of the limitations. It can be used with non-monk weapons, and may be used as part of any full attack regardless of what weapons you are using (including natural weapons). For similar reasons it may not receive any extra attacks from your ki pool and does not count as Flurry of Blows for requirements of feats/classes/etc. The second and third bonus maneuvers from this come too late. You'll want to move on to another class by then.
It also gets a little weird if you combine it with combat maneuvers which reposition, since you could hypothetically move 10 or more feet as part of one and still finish your full attack. Strap an unconscious, tiny animal to yourself and you can get some pretty good distance on a bull rush. It is very unclear if and how this works with the overrun maneuver since Flurrying is a full attack action.
Maneuver Defense (level 3, replaces Still Mind)
This ability rewards getting as many improved maneuver feats as possible, but maneuvers generally reward focusing on a select few maneuvers. Improved Grapple is the clear winner here when fighting monsters.
Reliable Maneuver (level 4, replaces Slow Fall)
Waaay better than slow fall, but not necessarily better than the Quingong Ki Power you're missing out on. Regardless, it does what it does and it does it well.
Meditative Maneuver (level 5, replaces Purity of Body)
Sadly this is completely incompatible on a turn-by-turn basis with the Reliable Maneuver ability you just got last level. The ability you use more often will probably depend on your exact build.
Higher Levels...
Sweeping Maneuver is quite good, but overall a high-level Maneuver Master is only a little better than the standard Monk (which isn't saying much). You should probably multiclass out by 2nd, 6th, or at the very latest 8th. Keep in mind that most maneuvers become less useful in later levels.
compatible with...
-Drunken Master
-Hungry Ghost Monk
-Kata Master
-Ki Mystic
-Monk of the Iron Mountain
-
compatible with...
-Drunken Master
No reason to take this archetype, but also not really any reason not to. The drunken stagger of Drunken Ki is just as good here as anywhere else, and Drunken Strength isn't particular about what sort of attack it is.
-Ki Mystic
More synergy than Drunken Master. My understanding of how rerolls work leads me to believe that rerolling a Perfect Strike with Mystic Insight lets you roll two dice both times. However, even with a Keen weapon this only gives a ~35.5% chance to crit (because monk weapons all crit only on 20), and there's little other reason to roll that many dice.
-Monk of the Empty Hand
If you're going for the pity option then this is it. Being non-proficient with the only weapons you can Perfect Strike with is a good way to get laughs at the table, or laughed at at the table...
-Maneuver Master
If you really want to be a weapon adept then this is your best combination. Maneuver Master flurry gives no damns about what sort of weapon you are using, and Perfect Strike works for trips, disarms, and sunders as well as attack rolls. If you're serious about maneuvers though then you'll basically be trying not to roll a 1.
comments...
One of the few archetypes that can be combined with Maneuver Master, this archetype doesn't play nice with others for the most part.
Perfect Strike (Level 1, replaces Stunning Fist)
Stunning Fist wouldn't be a huge loss if it didn't preclude taking a lot of other more desirable archetypes. This honestly isn't that bad of an ability and it makes the monk less Wisdom-dependent, which is a plus. The weapon greenlist here is painfully limited, and most notably does not even include unarmed strikes. If this could be used with real martial weapons I would be more impressed.
Way of the Weapon Master (Level 2, replaces Evasion)
Almost strictly a downgrade. A +1 bonus to hit isn't awful, but it tries to limit further your already-poor selection of weapons you can use.
Higher Levels...
Uncanny Initiative is the only win here. If you're playing up to 17th level you'll enjoy that, but otherwise be sad that you chose to take 17 levels of Weapon Master.
This guide is an attempt to figure out exactly which monk archetypes work with which other ones, and how powerful those combinations are. Monk is a pathetic core class in any objective game (keyword OBJECTIVE), and to combat this the folks over at Paizo have made a number of archetypes to try to change this. But what happens if you take two archetypes which make a bad class okay, and combine them? Hopefully we can find the holy grail of monk archetype combos!
Blue is very good
Green is good
Orange is iffy
Red is bad
The Archetypes (have not yet included all Paizo archetypes)
Quingong Monk (UM)
Drunken Master (APG)
Flowing Monk (UC)
Hungry Ghost Monk (APG)
Kata Master (ACG)
Ki Mystic (APG)
Maneuver Master (UC)
Martial Artist (UC)
Master of Many Styles (UC)
Monk of the Four Winds (APG)
Monk of the Healing Hand (APG)
Monk of the Iron Mountain (APG)
Monk of the Lotus (APG)
Monk of the Seven Winds (Inner Sea Guide?)
Sensei (UC)
Sohei (UC)
Tetori (UC)
Weapon Adept (APG)
Zen Archer (APG)
compatible with...
-Master of Many Styles
No real synergy here, but they're both good archetypes. The only downside is that the 5' stagger from Drunken Master isn't as useful without flurry of blows.
-Monk of the Four Winds
Again, no real synergy. Drunken Ki can absorb some of the cost of Slow Time at level 12, but prior to that there's not a lot of interaction between the two.
-Monk of the Iron Mountain
-Monk of the Lotus
-Monk of the Seven Winds
-Sensei
-Weapon Adept
compatible with...
-Monk of the Four Winds
Gain nothing of real interest until 12th level, but also lose nothing. If you've dumped your wisdom then this may be preferable to keeping Stunning Fist. Alternatively you could take a single level of the Unarmed Fighter fighter archetype to gain Marid Style, then use the 5-foot reach for trips. Even if this does work as hoped, you still don't threaten during others' turns like you would with a guisarme.
-Weapon Adept
Perfect Strike limits your choice of weapons in a way that Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't. You're better off without this one.
comments
If you're going for Maneuver Master then your best archetype options are in other classes. The Lore Warden fighter archetype is particularly good, since you don't really care about armor proficiencies and get access to martial weapons for your flurry.
Bonus Feat (level 1, modifies Bonus Feats)
This allows you to function, and it does it well. You may still wish to take Combat Expertise (offered for free by Lore Warden!) to make full use of your later abilities.
Flurry of Maneuvers (level 1, replaces Flurry of Blows)
The calling card of this archetype, the bonus is sadly tied to your monk level. Note that this is not by any means the flurry of blows ability, and it lacks many of the limitations. It can be used with non-monk weapons, and may be used as part of any full attack regardless of what weapons you are using (including natural weapons). For similar reasons it may not receive any extra attacks from your ki pool and does not count as Flurry of Blows for requirements of feats/classes/etc. The second and third bonus maneuvers from this come too late. You'll want to move on to another class by then.
It also gets a little weird if you combine it with combat maneuvers which reposition, since you could hypothetically move 10 or more feet as part of one and still finish your full attack. Strap an unconscious, tiny animal to yourself and you can get some pretty good distance on a bull rush. It is very unclear if and how this works with the overrun maneuver since Flurrying is a full attack action.
Maneuver Defense (level 3, replaces Still Mind)
This ability rewards getting as many improved maneuver feats as possible, but maneuvers generally reward focusing on a select few maneuvers. Improved Grapple is the clear winner here when fighting monsters.
Reliable Maneuver (level 4, replaces Slow Fall)
Waaay better than slow fall, but not necessarily better than the Quingong Ki Power you're missing out on. Regardless, it does what it does and it does it well.
Meditative Maneuver (level 5, replaces Purity of Body)
Sadly this is completely incompatible on a turn-by-turn basis with the Reliable Maneuver ability you just got last level. The ability you use more often will probably depend on your exact build.
Higher Levels...
Sweeping Maneuver is quite good, but overall a high-level Maneuver Master is only a little better than the standard Monk (which isn't saying much). You should probably multiclass out by 2nd, 6th, or at the very latest 8th. Keep in mind that most maneuvers become less useful in later levels.
compatible with...
-Drunken Master
-Hungry Ghost Monk
-Kata Master
-Ki Mystic
-Monk of the Iron Mountain
-
compatible with...
-Drunken Master
No reason to take this archetype, but also not really any reason not to. The drunken stagger of Drunken Ki is just as good here as anywhere else, and Drunken Strength isn't particular about what sort of attack it is.
-Ki Mystic
More synergy than Drunken Master. My understanding of how rerolls work leads me to believe that rerolling a Perfect Strike with Mystic Insight lets you roll two dice both times. However, even with a Keen weapon this only gives a ~35.5% chance to crit (because monk weapons all crit only on 20), and there's little other reason to roll that many dice.
-Monk of the Empty Hand
If you're going for the pity option then this is it. Being non-proficient with the only weapons you can Perfect Strike with is a good way to get laughs at the table, or laughed at at the table...
-Maneuver Master
If you really want to be a weapon adept then this is your best combination. Maneuver Master flurry gives no damns about what sort of weapon you are using, and Perfect Strike works for trips, disarms, and sunders as well as attack rolls. If you're serious about maneuvers though then you'll basically be trying not to roll a 1.
comments...
One of the few archetypes that can be combined with Maneuver Master, this archetype doesn't play nice with others for the most part.
Perfect Strike (Level 1, replaces Stunning Fist)
Stunning Fist wouldn't be a huge loss if it didn't preclude taking a lot of other more desirable archetypes. This honestly isn't that bad of an ability and it makes the monk less Wisdom-dependent, which is a plus. The weapon greenlist here is painfully limited, and most notably does not even include unarmed strikes. If this could be used with real martial weapons I would be more impressed.
Way of the Weapon Master (Level 2, replaces Evasion)
Almost strictly a downgrade. A +1 bonus to hit isn't awful, but it tries to limit further your already-poor selection of weapons you can use.
Higher Levels...
Uncanny Initiative is the only win here. If you're playing up to 17th level you'll enjoy that, but otherwise be sad that you chose to take 17 levels of Weapon Master.