A no-rest campaign.

[Endril]

I was just thinking it would be cool to have a game where the players can't rest during, or even between, games. Not being able to memorize spells would put a completely different spin on the game. I was thinking of a dungeon that they can't leave and that somehow prevents them from sleeping, and takes them the entirety of the campaign to complete.

Three questions:

1) How would the DM do this? I'm thinking dimensional lock to prevent them from leaving; this would also cause them to be self sufficient since they won't be able to go back to town and refill supplies. Still brainstorming for reasons they wouldn't be able to sleep.

2) Any way to keep story lines going? Seems it would get boring if all they do is go through the same dungeon each game. The introduction story could be interesting, and it will be fun trying to figure out how to survive without leaving or sleeping, but I'd need some way to keep a story going after the first few games.

3) What types of characters would you use? Warlock seems good here, and reserve feats might make spellcasters possible, particularly clerics with touch of healing. Other than that, abilities that aren't per day, such as a rogue finding traps and fighters swinging swords, would be stronger. Tome of battle classes would be great for their per-encounter abilities. Trying to find ways to get food, get by without rest, and heal could be a challenge. Bringing characters back from the dead could be quite a problem.

[Honest Tiefling]

Every gets the Nightmare (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/nightmare.html) spell put onto them, cranked up to 11. And then give them some way to avoid sleep, but at a cost.

As for the dungeon, it comes in layers. The first layer is a natural cave, with goblins. They've broken into ancient ruins, filled with traps and the remains of their magical wonders. They broke into a part of the world, deep beneath the ground, that either opens up to the Plane of Fire, Plane of Shadow, or the Feywild, pick your poison.

[TheCrowing1432]

the characters would start taking significant minuses to pretty much everything due to exhaustion. So even the fighters "unlimited sword swings" would eventually tire out.

This seems more torturous then fun.

[(Un)Inspired]

Well if you're going to have lack of sleep cause fatigue followed by exhaustion then cleric is probably gonna be the most powerful class.

They can still cast and prepare spells, losing teleporting doesn't hurt them as much, and they can magic away any sleep penalties.

Warforged wizards probably kick a lot of arse but losing teleporting sucks.

[Honest Tiefling]

Warforged wizards probably kick a lot of arse but losing teleporting sucks.

Plot twist, the characters are slowly becoming constructs the longer they stay in this place! Except they occasionally do things against their very own will...

[WeaselGuy]

Would definitely play a Warforged Warlock for something like this. Limited rest required, unlimited use SLAs, including flight and dimension door. Would probably even go Glaivelock, focused on being a melee striker/trip focused BFC (maybe. I don't remember if Eldritch Glaive can be used to trip...).

edit: Now I'm about to go make a Warforged Warlock :smalltongue:

[TheCrowing1432]

Undead.

'Nuff said.

[(Un)Inspired]

I'd want to play an ardent with bestow power, a torc of power preservation and earth power. No sleep needed, unlimited power points.

[WeaselGuy]

Undead.

'Nuff said.

ooh, Undead Warlock :D

I realize Cleric is superior to Warlock, in terms of both casting and versatility, however, when I think of a "no-rest campaign", I generally assume that there may not be time to pray for my spells either, due to some impending doom. Warlock, on the other hand, has no prep time inherent in it's casting, giving it contention for power in these types of situations. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[(Un)Inspired]

ooh, Undead Warlock :D

I realize Cleric is superior to Warlock, in terms of both casting and versatility, however, when I think of a "no-rest campaign", I generally assume that there may not be time to pray for my spells either, due to some impending doom. Warlock, on the other hand, has no prep time inherent in it's casting, giving it contention for power in these types of situations. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

You think so?

Even if under constant assault my cleric would stone shape a cocoon around itself to be able to get some alone time for an hour to contemplate the universe.

Surely there are other ways to pause enemies from harassing you for at least an hour.

[NichG]

You could have the campaign be on the Astral plane, and take a very very harsh reading of 'no time passes' to include all effects measured in times. So if you cast a buff spell, it lasts for the entire campaign, but you also can never prepare new spells even as a cleric because the particular time at which you have to pray to receive spells never arrives. You also eliminate the hunger/sleep problem.

If I were designing this, I'd probably make two particular things: first, everyone must play a gish-type build of some sort. This is to make sure every player is dealing with the same sorts of pressures, so you don't end up with 'the Warlock is fine, but the Wizard wishes he stayed home' kinds of things. Secondly, add some gimmick that allows spells to be recovered, but through a very limited set of opportunities - maybe there's some substance like anti-quintessence which can be used to impose time on timeless spaces, so if you consume enough of it you can refresh your spells once. Or maybe you need to salvage the arcane energy which escapes when another spellcaster with un-cast spells dies, and the world is cannibalistically winding itself down.

This is definitely a 'not for everyone' campaign idea though.

[Yahzi]

I generally assume that there may not be time to pray for my spells
You don't have one hour to spare? That's not a campaign; that's an encounter.

What you are trying to do is recreate OD&D, where casters memorized spells once per game session. That's a cool way to play, but the spells need to be a lot more powerful for that to work.

[Riculf]

Played in a campaign like this. Part of a dungeon crawl turned into a real slog against the clock. The party had to chase down the Bad Guys, who had a head start. Each encounter sapped HP, magic and resources but any time taken resting had a major effect on the outcome (giving the BG's more time to prepare). Fatigue didn't become an issue as the time in-game was all within one day but that part of the game took about 4 sessions to play due to the number of encounters. Last encounter (Boss Fight) was tense with many characters on 1/2 or less HP and tapped on power. Almost TPW but "just" made it (with healing down to heal checks to stabilise). Tense times but good story and it was interesting to try and make decisions on whether or not to use things in any one encounter without knowing how many more delays you'd run into before the end :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

the characters would start taking significant minuses to pretty much everything due to exhaustion. So even the fighters "unlimited sword swings" would eventually tire out.

Incorrect. Unless you have a sub-sysstem that requires you to sleep (meldshaping, spellcasting, ect.), there aren't any penalties for sleep deprivation in the rules.

Related to the OP, Feral would be a useful template, since Cure spells would be hard to come by, making the fast healing very valuable.

[WeaselGuy]

Played in a campaign like this. Part of a dungeon crawl turned into a real slog against the clock. The party had to chase down the Bad Guys, who had a head start. Each encounter sapped HP, magic and resources but any time taken resting had a major effect on the outcome (giving the BG's more time to prepare). Last encounter was tense with many characters on 1/2 or less HP and tapped on power. Almost TPW but "just" made it :biggrin:

That's the type of campaign I envisioned when I wrote about not having time to prepare spells. A situation like that, you really might not have the hour to encase yourself in stone to pray for an hour, regardless of the threats in your AO.

And, even if you did do that, unless you are the cornerstone of your group or playing solo, the needs of the many may outweigh the needs of the few, dictating they either prevent you from praying, or continue on without you for an hour.

Harsh, yes, and would I expect the players at my table to leave me behind? Probably not. This definitely seems like the type of campaign where T3/T4 characters could finally shine though.


Incorrect. Unless you have a sub-sysstem that requires you to sleep (meldshaping, spellcasting, ect.), there aren't any penalties for sleep deprivation in the rules.

Related to the OP, Feral would be a useful template, since Cure spells would be hard to come by, making the fast healing very valuable.

There may be quite a few templates that could see the light of day in this type of situation. Depending on starting level, some potentially high level ones can come online (such as Vampire) and not be a hindrance.

[Riculf]

That's the type of campaign I envisioned when I wrote about not having time to prepare spells. A situation like that, you really might not have the hour to encase yourself in stone to pray for an hour, regardless of the threats in your AO.

And, even if you did do that, unless you are the cornerstone of your group or playing solo, the needs of the many may outweigh the needs of the few, dictating they either prevent you from praying, or continue on without you for an hour.

Harsh, yes, and would I expect the players at my table to leave me behind? Probably not. This definitely seems like the type of campaign where T3/T4 characters could finally shine though.

That was it. Spell casters had to start conserving energy, healing was a major problem and even things like ammunition carried started telling. It really made us feel the tension.

[goto124]

I guess no-rest games work better for seasoned players looking for a challenge. Pretty much a given though

[Riculf]

A lot of the comments seem to be creating a character type that can "defeat" the premise (no prep time/fatigue/abilities that don't require rest). Is the "general consensus" that a limited resource/time game would be less fun? I ask because my experience of it was both fun and incredibly tense at the same time. It was one where I thought we were often on the brink of true failure (tense and frustrating) but the victory was the sweeter for it. Am I in the minority in this?:smallsmile:

[WeaselGuy]

A lot of the comments seem to be creating a character type that can "defeat" the premise (no prep time/fatigue/abilities that don't require rest). Is the "general consensus" that a limited resource/time game would be less fun? I ask because my experience of it was both fun and incredibly tense at the same time. It was one where I thought we were often on the brink of true failure (tense and frustrating) but the victory was the sweeter for it. Am I in the minority in this?:smallsmile:

Honestly, I think you (and me, and a few others) may be in the minority, given the preponderance of prepared casters dominating game play at all levels. I know that, I accept it, and on a limited number of occasions, I embrace it (namely in high-OP campaigns). But, the extreme majority of my characters over the past decade have been Rangers, Rogues, Paladins and Warlocks. I have played 1 Cleric, 1 Beguiler (T2/3), and 1 Shadowcaster (T3/4?). I've never played a Wizard or a full Druid, never played a Sorcerer, and never played a Favored Soul. Just not my niche.

So, saying all of that, I would definitely enjoy playing in a limited resource campaign, even if I would probably play the most efficient character type in that scenario (namely, Undead or Warforged Warlock).

[Riculf]

In the above-mentioned campaign I played an elf scout/OotBI archer. I didn't have the problem of replenishing spells but I had "fun" seriously trying to scavenge arrows. At one point I had to pick up a dis-guarded crossbow as I ran really short of ammo. This seriously affected a load of the characters feats that specifically required a bow to work.

I would admit that I'd rather not play this kind of story all the time but occasionally it's nice to change the pace.

[Khedrac]

A lot depends on what you want to do. "No rest" adventures can be fun, but a full campaign I think rather less so (it also probably means no leveling up).

I am currently running a "post-apocalypse" campaign where spellcasting (and psionics) don't work. (In fact it's a bit more than that, taking a level of a spellcasting class will kill you, even ranger 1).
The aim was to get people to try other game sub-systems.

The current party is a Warblade, a Crusader, a Incarnate and a Warlock (the 5th player had to pull out, so no Binder or Dragonfire Adept - oh well). Anyway these are all classes that can keep going all day (with enough healing) - no "we need to stop so I can relearn spells".

This gives a "non-stop" campaign without it being a "no rest" campaign.

(The party healing at level 2 is currently some potions and the warlock UMDing a wand of cure light wounds. That said, the warlock took 1 point of damage when he used the wand - spell trigger items produce spells and the world doesn't like spells right now.)

Anyway I am already calling the game a success for my original aim, I just have to keep it interesting and fun, and we will see how far we get.

[Zirconia]

I agree that doing an entire campaign that way would almost require that people design their characters for it, but I think doing a few scenarios with that kind of theme in a normal campaign could be interesting, especially at low to mid levels. It does provide a chance for the more mundane folks to shine, since casters then have to REALLY be careful with their resources.

At lower levels, where I played in something like that, a simple trap that teleports you to a sealed cavern complex works. An alternative is to have the ongoing BBEG send you there. Let the party scavenge some food and water, if they can't make their own, from the bodies of others who were sent there. They might even find the bodies of a group which starved to death chipping away at a wall, which could give them an idea of how to try to get out. The one I was in had really big caves, like tunnels a couple hundred feet across, so it would have taken forever to check for secret doors. The original trap or BBEG regularly sends in more foes, so it is hard to get rest, especially since digging in rock is noisy so can attract wandering monsters. That is also a good chance to use things like Xorns that can get into a sealed environment.

At higher levels, if the party doesn't have something like Gate yet, sending to another dimension can work. Worst case, have custom prison dimensions where certain spells don't work so getting out isn't trivial.

[Heliomance]

Necrocarnate would be good. Also Psionics, what with the assorted infinite PP shenanigans you can pull.

[Riculf]

At a slight tangent, In another campaign, there were numerous characters from out respective "stables" (of levels ranging from 1st to 20th) that played the storming of a city. The time IC would have been approximately 2 days. The time OOC to play this enormous sequence of set pieces took the better part of at least six months to get through. During that time there was only 1 rest period for all of the characters (although the characters were divided into different "missions" and so weren't all being operated at the same time). This meant that for those six months we had to be really careful with everything as you never knew when you would get a chance to replace it. It also meant that you had limited time to identify things that you found (taking RAW) so you were frequently stuck with what you started with.

Another exercise in stamina and none of us are looking to repeat it any time soon, but it was "fun" looking back on it. Many of the mid-level characters went up about 6 levels at the end when they had a chance to train, etc. :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

Fatigue is easily overcome. Ray of Resurgence is a level 1 spell which does that, or reduces exhausted to fatigued. A Breath of the Waves graft (Magic of Eberron) lets the character remove fatigue up to once an hour.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Incorrect. Unless you have a sub-sysstem that requires you to sleep (meldshaping, spellcasting, ect.), there aren't any penalties for sleep deprivation in the rules.

Not actually true look up "Forced March" under the overland travel rules.

[Flickerdart]

I was just thinking it would be cool to have a game where the players can't rest during, or even between, games.
I sincerely hope that you actually mean characters.

[Renen]

Necrocarnate would be good. Also Psionics, what with the assorted infinite PP shenanigans you can pull.

Yep. Id just play a psion, and recharge my PP with the trick.

[Endril]

I sincerely hope that you actually mean characters.
LOL yeah I did

And thanks to all who have responded so far. Most of you get where I was trying to go; changing the feel of the game and making classes other than spellcasters shine. I was thinking a dungeon that they can't break out of and nightmares when they try to sleep could be a start, although I admit it would be torture on the characters. I was also considering a world with no magic, but that could be boring.

I'd be OK with them designing characters just for these conditions; that would be part of the fun of it. I'm surprised my first thought was necropolitan rather than warforged. I was also taking a look at the articifer's ability to smash items and make new ones being extremely valuable when they can't leave, but that only works on experience, so I don't think it would work that way.

I was thinking they start at level 1, get stuck, and come out 10-15 levels later. Is that a bit far fetched?

[Honest Tiefling]

I was thinking they start at level 1, get stuck, and come out 10-15 levels later. Is that a bit far fetched?

Why ask us? Ask your players and see what their reaction is.

[magicalmagicman]

1. Get some money somehow
2. Hire/buy soldiers. aka Hydra Effigies, NPC spellcasters for planar binding or animate dead, etc.
3. Once they die, you should've made a profit.
4. Go back to 2.

OR

get leadership and get your soldiers for free, assuming you can replace your cohort and followers for free.

[Sam K]

A lot of the comments seem to be creating a character type that can "defeat" the premise (no prep time/fatigue/abilities that don't require rest). Is the "general consensus" that a limited resource/time game would be less fun? I ask because my experience of it was both fun and incredibly tense at the same time. It was one where I thought we were often on the brink of true failure (tense and frustrating) but the victory was the sweeter for it. Am I in the minority in this?:smallsmile:

Well, I think it's safe to assume that if you play a full caster, you want to do some spellcasting. So anyone who plans to play a caster class is going to try to "beat" this because the option is spending most of your time doing nothing of value (after all there's a vast difference between being proficient with a weapon, and being useful with one :vaarsuvius:). That said, I actually think the no-rest (or limited rest) campaign was what alot of game designers had in mind. It would explain why things like fast healing is so expensive for players, why healing potions even exist, and how they could look at themselves in the mirror every day after putting wizards and monks in the same book.

Despite this, I actaully think this kind of game would do little to reduce class imbalances. The fighter has "unlimited sword swings"? Great, but unless he has unlimited HP, he still has to rely on a limited use resource (magical healing) to do his job. And it will still be more cost effective to use encounter-ending spells to reduce the amount of time spent fighting, than to slog things out and then blow several spells on healing up the beatstick. Limited resources wouldn't mean that casters blow more of those resources of buffing up and healing the mundanes, it would mean they have to conserve them even more for winning fights.

In the end, god-wizards and CoDzillas would still be kings. Warlocks and binders would probably shine a bit more, as would martial adepts. Being a no-subsystem character would still not be an optimal choice. I do quite like the idea of a game where you have to use other subsystems than spellcasting, though.

[Riculf]

This topic seems to be talking about two types of game:

The first is a long game of limited rest and therefore a requirement to take/make classes and races that can remain powerful without access to tier 1 power all the time.

The second is a normal campaign which occasionally spends extended periods of time with a limit to the usefulness of tier 1 power through the mechanism of fatigue, time constraints, blocks to divine/arcane channelling, etc.

My experience only lays with the the latter and makes for an interesting change of pace and a requirement to adapt to the circumstances. This has meant that players playing tier 1-style primaries have to accept taking a back-seat occasionally to "hold the coats" (rather a nice re-balancer/leveller). That said, the former option sounds like a cool premise to try something different out that emphasises different classes as pseudo-tier 1, given the premise :smallsmile:

[prufock]

If you want to get around the cleric thing, make the entire adventure take place over 24 hours. You could even play it in (almost) real-time. The cleric has all his spells prepared, can't do so again until the next sunrise or whatever.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't do a whole campaign around this because then players would just build resourceless characters (warlocks/kineticists, ToB/PoW, Incarnum/Akasha, Pact Magic) to "defeat" it. But a few sessions where the spellcasters have to ration would actually make them, you know, ration.


I sincerely hope that you actually mean characters.

This made me chuckle :smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

I sincerely hope that you actually mean characters.

Sleep dep D&D would be... interesting. Especially once the hallucinations start.

[Kindly]

If you want to get around the cleric thing, make the entire adventure take place over 24 hours. You could even play it in (almost) real-time. The cleric has all his spells prepared, can't do so again until the next sunrise or whatever.

One could go even further with this and base the campaign on the plot of the TV series 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_(TV_series)). Except with wizards.

And if the party is an elite unit meant to counter sudden immediate threats, it makes sense if they're all specialized in a way that doesn't require 8 hours of preparation before they can function.

[Renen]

If you want to get around the cleric thing, make the entire adventure take place over 24 hours. You could even play it in (almost) real-time. The cleric has all his spells prepared, can't do so again until the next sunrise or whatever.

Only one who can recharge without rest or specific time is a psion with appropriate tricks.

[Flickerdart]

Only one who can recharge without rest or specific time is a psion with appropriate tricks.
Well, wilders and the others also have ways of getting in on it. But yeah, other than psionicists (and ye olde arcane swordsages) recovering slots isn't happening without fast time plane shenanigans. I've seen some Shadowcaster fixes that give them their mysteries per-encounter rather than per-day, which would obviously be much more powerful here, but that's just homebrew.

[Vhaidara]

Sleep dep D&D would be... interesting. Especially once the hallucinations start.

I once was in a session that followed a 48 hour game-design jam and a 24 hour charity livestream. Three of the players (GM included) took part in both. I was involved in neither. It was a really odd session.

[prufock]

Only one who can recharge without rest or specific time is a psion with appropriate tricks.


Well, wilders and the others also have ways of getting in on it. But yeah, other than psionicists (and ye olde arcane swordsages) recovering slots isn't happening without fast time plane shenanigans.
At what level do these tricks come online? Simplest solution would be to play below that level.


I was thinking they start at level 1, get stuck, and come out 10-15 levels later. Is that a bit far fetched?
This would be a lot, in my opinion. While I would find this type of resource-management-heavy game satisfying to some degree, I think a 3-6 session adventure, with maybe 1 or 2 level bumps, would be enough.

[danzibr]

The first thing that sprang to mind was this from the DM's perspective. In particular, I'd do something like Resident Evil. Mini-campaign, no time to rest.

[Renen]

At what level do these tricks come online? Simplest solution would be to play below that level.


This would be a lot, in my opinion. While I would find this type of resource-management-heavy game satisfying to some degree, I think a 3-6 session adventure, with maybe 1 or 2 level bumps, would be enough.

The trick is possible at level 3

[Heliomance]

The trick is possible at level 3

Which one's that? There's actually quite a few infinite PP tricks, I think, though I don't know the details.

[Renen]

I think the MoI one is lvl 3, but needs human with flaws.
the other lvl 3 one is only avaliable at that lvl is if you ignore wbl to buy the torc of power preservation

[Psyren]

At what level do these tricks come online? Simplest solution would be to play below that level.

Or even more simply, use the PF version of Bestow Power, which kneecaps the lion's share of them.

[Endril]

OK I think a 24 hour game might be what I'm looking for. If I run it at a level where they can't teleport, it would be heavy on resource management too (if they spend half the day walking back to town, game over). This would mean for the length of the campaign, clerics/wizards/etc would only get to memorize spells ONCE. That would change everything. More people would want at-will or per-encounter abilities (warlock, tome of battle classes), and I'd probably have to start them at level 5 for spellcasters to even be feasible (through the use of reserve feats). I'd want it to be over by level 9, so I could probably do it in 8 games or so. Think I'm missing anything?

Still thinking about how they can heal or recover from stuff like ability damage. Touch of healing only heals up to half, and the potions and scrolls they find can only go so far. But if I tell them in advance what I'm doing, they might be able to buy enough scrolls and wands to deal with it for 8 games or so.

[Jack_Simth]

Incorrect. Unless you have a sub-sysstem that requires you to sleep (meldshaping, spellcasting, ect.), there aren't any penalties for sleep deprivation in the rules.There is one nod to them if you're looking. If you travel for more than 8 hours, you hit the Forced March Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#forcedMarch). If you're not sleeping because you're constantly moving to the next encounter, you'll probably cover 8 hours worth of walking distance in maybe ten or twelve hours.

OK I think a 24 hour game might be what I'm looking for. If I run it at a level where they can't teleport, it would be heavy on resource management too (if they spend half the day walking back to town, game over). This would mean for the length of the campaign, clerics/wizards/etc would only get to memorize spells ONCE. That would change everything. More people would want at-will or per-encounter abilities (warlock, tome of battle classes), and I'd probably have to start them at level 5 for spellcasters to even be feasible (through the use of reserve feats). I'd want it to be over by level 9, so I could probably do it in 8 games or so. Think I'm missing anything?

Still thinking about how they can heal or recover from stuff like ability damage. Touch of healing only heals up to half, and the potions and scrolls they find can only go so far. But if I tell them in advance what I'm doing, they might be able to buy enough scrolls and wands to deal with it for 8 games or so.
There's a few ways to do uncapped HP healing.

Mass Lesser Vigor is fast healing 1 for the whole party for a while. Cleric-3 spell, so if you add Divine Metamagic(persistent Spell), that's 24 hours of fast healing as early as 5th level.

A Warforged party with eight people (or four with enough Corhorts) who all took Improved Familiar (Formian Worker) gets a free Cure Serious once a round during breathers.

Magic Item Compendium has the Vampiric weapon property. Combine with a source of free meatshields or free temp HP (Minor Shapeshift or Summon Elemental reserve feats) and that's uncapped HP healing.

Sources of healing that get you up to half can be 'tricked' a bit higher if you're wearing a high-end amulet of health most of the time (or have some way to temporarily dump Con). Suppose you're using the Touch of Healing reserve feat on the party Fighter-9, max first, rolled average HP after that (so 10+8*5.5=54 HP before Con), has a base Con of 14 (+18 HP normally), and a +6 Amulet of Health (another +27 HP). With the amulet, he's got 99 HP max, so he's below half until he hits 50 hp. Remove the amulet, and he only has 72 base HP, so the 50% threshhold is only 36. Thing is, the HP from a high Con score are not temp HP - if you have a base 99 HP with an amulet on, and have taken 60 damage, you're at 39... if you take the amulet that's giving you an extra 27 HP off, you're down to 12. So the meatshield heals up to half (method stops working when he hits 50/99 HP). Removes the amulet (now at 23/72 HP), heals some more (stops working at 36/72 hp) and puts the amulet back on (now at 63/99 hp). The more you can move your Con score (for purposes of HP), the better this works.

Ability damage is harder.

[Karl Aegis]

OK I think a 24 hour game might be what I'm looking for. If I run it at a level where they can't teleport, it would be heavy on resource management too (if they spend half the day walking back to town, game over). This would mean for the length of the campaign, clerics/wizards/etc would only get to memorize spells ONCE. That would change everything. More people would want at-will or per-encounter abilities (warlock, tome of battle classes), and I'd probably have to start them at level 5 for spellcasters to even be feasible (through the use of reserve feats). I'd want it to be over by level 9, so I could probably do it in 8 games or so. Think I'm missing anything?

Still thinking about how they can heal or recover from stuff like ability damage. Touch of healing only heals up to half, and the potions and scrolls they find can only go so far. But if I tell them in advance what I'm doing, they might be able to buy enough scrolls and wands to deal with it for 8 games or so.

Experience is only awarded when a character has time to rest, so leveling up during the campaign is unfeasible.

At higher wealth levels, even getting to the full-caster's spells per day is a feat in itself. I have heard rumors of wizards going entire campaigns without once touching their spells per day.

On the other side of the spectrum, someone who uses only the mundane subsystem normally runs out of health to expend because they don't have any of the defenses a caster has. They can't avoid damage entirely by themselves. They also don't have expansive spell lists so they can make use of pretty much any magic item they find without effort. But, then again, unless someone happens to have a wand of identify there isn't really a purpose in giving out magic items. So then comes the question: Why is your party doing this if they will never see the rewards for their effort? They get no experience or items until after the campaign.

[Vhaidara]

Experience is only awarded when a character has time to rest, so leveling up during the campaign is unfeasible.

1. Source?
2 (if real). Stupid rule, like multiclass penalties, that is easily ignored/

[Karl Aegis]

1. Source?
2 (if real). Stupid rule, like multiclass penalties, that is easily ignored/

Dungeon's Masters Guide page 36 paragraph 2 under Experience Awards and Dungeon Master's guide page 198 under Gaining Class Features. There seem to be more "may" and "can" words than I remember, making the rule less of a rule and more of a space filler than I remember it was. Makes me wonder if the Dungeon Master's Guide had real rules in it or if it was all variants meant to frustrate players.

[Vhaidara]

Dungeon's Masters Guide page 36 paragraph 2 under Experience Awards and Dungeon Master's guide page 198 under Gaining Class Features. There seem to be more "may" and "can" words than I remember, making the rule less of a rule and more of a space filler than I remember it was. Makes me wonder if the Dungeon Master's Guide had real rules in it or if it was all variants meant to frustrate players.

Yeah, those are options for either new GMs who need time to calculate XP (beginning of next session) or new players who will take a long time to level up (end of session).

But either way, nothing in that paragraph says anything about the characters needing to rest.

[Necroticplague]

Not actually true look up "Forced March" under the overland travel rules.

Those are only applicable for actual forced marches. Doesn't apply to simply staying awake forever.

[Thurbane]

Warforged or Necropolitan Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Warblades, Binders, Factotums etc. can get by just fine without rest.

[Mehangel]

I would just suggest that each caster takes atleast 1 reserve feat and also suggest that atleast one character takes the draconic aura: Vigor feat. That should allow the party to continue on without too much difficulty..

[Platymus Pus]

Sleep is really easy to get around.

[Hiro Quester]

We played a campaign like this (plot driven, many encounters, no time to rest, have to conserve resources, esp. Spells. And eventually deal with encounters after most spells have been cast). But it was a fairly high level from 16 to 19 level.

We did also play that you could not level up until after resting. Esp for casters, you need to rest and prepare or meditate to get spells. That also goes for a new level of spells.

I never saw 17th level, but jumped from 16th to 18th. It made us look for opportunities to rest, and to often have to evaluate the need for rest to replenish spells against the urgency of the mission. The mission often won.

It was minorly frustrating for the casters (esp when a new rank of spells was only a rest away). The casters often pushed harder for rest than the non-casters.

But the non-casters got to shine and were more depended upon as we had to solve problems without spells, or while conserving spells. Healing wands were very much a necessity. But also had to be conserved.

I was playing a buff and BC bard, but with decent melee abilities that I rarely used. Having to step into melee more often (to conserve spells and make best use of the bardic music that buffed the whole party) made me play that side of the character too, which was a lot of fun. I think everyone enjoyed the challenge of the game immensely.

The challenge of not knowing whether this is the last encounter of the day, and having always to consider whether blowing your last use of haste or disintegrate on this encounter was wise (would you later regret not having saved it?) added a very fun set of challenges that brought characters out of their usual habits and playstyles. I totally recommend it.

But let the players rest occasionally. Give them the knowledge that the bad guys can't use the McGuffin again today, or can move it further today, etc. so they can rest sometimes. Even if rarely.

[(Un)Inspired]

We played a campaign like this (plot driven, many encounters, no time to rest, have to conserve resources, esp. Spells. And eventually deal with encounters after most spells have been cast). But it was a fairly high level from 16 to 19 level.

We did also play that you could not level up until after resting. Esp for casters, you need to rest and prepare or meditate to get spells. That also goes for a new level of spells.

I never saw 17th level, but jumped from 16th to 18th. It made us look for opportunities to rest, and to often have to evaluate the need for rest to replenish spells against the urgency of the mission. The mission often won.

It was minorly frustrating for the casters (esp when a new rank of spells was only a rest away). The casters often pushed harder for rest than the non-casters.

But the non-casters got to shine and were more depended upon as we had to solve problems without spells, or while conserving spells. Healing wands were very much a necessity. But also had to be conserved.

I was playing a buff and BC bard, but with decent melee abilities that I rarely used. Having to step into melee more often (to conserve spells and make best use of the bardic music that buffed the whole party) made me play that side of the character too, which was a lot of fun. I think everyone enjoyed the challenge of the game immensely.

The challenge of not knowing whether this is the last encounter of the day, and having always to consider whether blowing your last use of haste or disintegrate on this encounter was wise (would you later regret not having saved it?) added a very fun set of challenges that brought characters out of their usual habits and playstyles. I totally recommend it.

But let the players rest occasionally. Give them the knowledge that the bad guys can't use the McGuffin again today, or can move it further today, etc. so they can rest sometimes. Even if rarely.

How did the DM prevent the casters from resting?

[Jack_Simth]

How did the DM prevent the casters from resting?
Hiro Quester briefly mentioned that in the parenthetical note in the first sentence: "no time to rest". The general method is to just make something time-sensitive. If the Princess was regularly mind-blanked for security before she was kidnapped, the BBEG is too, the ransom note says you've got until sunset, and the macguffin he wants you to get happens to be at some unknown location in that 20-encounter dungeon, well....

[Hiro Quester]

How did the DM prevent the casters from resting?

Like Jack said. Bad guys are one step ahead of you. Very important time sensitive tasks to complete. If you don't follow immediately, the villagers will die, the ritual to open the portal to enable Demons to enter our plane will begin, the McGuffin will be lost forever. Etc.

That and just many encounters in a day. By late morning we've had three difficult encounters, and we are warned that before the day is out we'll have many more miles of difficult territory to cross, or many more waves of bad guys are poised to attack the village we're guarding, etc.