Fighter Redux, Take II

[Lord Iames Osari]

Some of you may remember my Lodoss-Style Fighter Redux (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32633). I was never entirely satisfied with it, since it was so focused on counteracting damage-dealing effects. Hence, I am revisiting it.

HD: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int)*, Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Bonus feat
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Mettle
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|~
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Evasion
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|~
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus feat, improved mettle
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|~
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|~
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|~
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|~
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|~
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus feat[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As standard fighter.
Bonus Feats: As standard fighter.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the fighter can resist magical and unusual effects with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a succesful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Evasion (Ex): At 7th level, the fighter gains the evasion ability, as the rogue.
Improved Mettle (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter’s mettle ability improves. He still suffers no effect on a successful save, but he now takes only the lesser effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefits of improved mettle.

[Marcotic]

it makes perfect sense that a fighter can fient, but it doesn't sit right with me that he can bluff, I would suggest giving a fighter a bonus = to his fighter levels +3+ cha that he can use instead of a standard bluff check for feinting. Other wise I gots no beefs with this class fix.

[Marcotic]

Let me go on to say Nice work dude!

another problem, by making the Deflect thing a dex check, you force even more MAD on the fighter, further, since a fighters BAB is going to be better then the Mages, (probly twice as good) giving him any ability based bonus will mean that it pretty much always works, perhaps eliminating any bonus from ability will do good. To confinsate for the lack of it working gauranteed, get rid of the AoO aspect of it. Just a thought

[Lord Iames Osari]

:smallconfused: MAD? Hardly. As you've pointed out, his BAB is high enough to give him a good chance at success.

It's much easier just to give the fighter Bluff. Can I ask why you don't like it?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mmmmm... smells like a Jedi this does...

Seriously, though... I don't see much of a problem with it. Direct Damage is probably the worst thing a caster can do, given his options, so being able to be anti-direct damage isn't too overpowering.

I like Mettle and Improved Mettle, though... Finger of Death and Slay Living just got a lot less nasty.

[Marcotic]

I don't like it because of the uses it has outside of combat, I don't see a fighter as a skilled bluffer, I just don't, it's my perogitive, its how i see the game. By doing it this way it also has the affect of allowing the fighter one less skill to drop points in. Also, it helps make the class less dipable. What you do in your game is up to you, of course, but I would say nix it for my propisition.

[TempusCCK]

You haven't made a fighter, you've made an anti-wizard.

Would work well for a prestige class, but doesn't fit very well for fighter base.

Though I do like Knowledge (War) as a class skill, that's very inspired.

[Lord Iames Osari]

You are free not to spend your skill points on Bluff when you play the fighter. :smalltongue:

Yes, it is a bit Jedi-like, isn't it? Heh. I never noticed until now.

Oh! I just forgot that I never said what Knowledge (war) was.

Knowledge (war) (Int, trained only)
This skill covers military history, rules of war, battle tactics and strategies, and can provide a synergy bonus on Profession (siege engineer) checks.

[Marcotic]

:smallconfused: MAD? Hardly. As you've pointed out, his BAB is high enough to give him a good chance at success.

It's much easier just to give the fighter Bluff. Can I ask why you don't like it?

It does give him MAD because he'll probably take combat reflexes so he can use his best abilities more then once a round, not that he needs the extra dex to make sure his class feature works.

That is why I proposed what I proposed, it makes the fighter less dependant on Dex for it's class feature. Again, your fix do what you will, and it isn't bad as is, this is just my opinion of how it would look. (as ive never play tested it or nothin')

After taking a better look at the skill's, I also have to say Nix Sense Motive, it makes perfect sense to give it to him, but its already difficult to fient a fighter, this would make it nearly impossible. But the out of combat applications make so much sense too, so I dunno, maybe just a bonus? I guess if i were to use this fix I wouldn't give a fighter sense motive, but I would probly give him a bonus to sense motive outside of combat, cuz a gaurd shoulnd be duped or at least it shoulnd be as easy as it is to dupe a gaurd

[AmberVael]

Yes, but how many NPC guards are going to have Fighter class levels?
It makes sense to me that Fighters should be able to read people. Think about officers of some kind having to understand their troops, and how do you think they know people are going to feint in the first place?
Its reading expression and intent. Sense Motive. It really does overlap.
Bluff makes similar sense, as it can explain soldiers being taught what to do when captured, or just someone knowing how to feint.
Again, if that doesn't fit the idea of your character, you don't have to invest skill points in it. Its not like you will have many skill points as a fighter anyways.

Also, you have TONS of bonus feats. Combat Reflexes will be easily gained, and furthermore (as already stated) damage spells are one of the worst things a spellcaster can do (especially to you, a fighter with lots of HP), so you'd better be more worried about your Will save.
Besides, do you EXPECT to get shot at with a line/ray/etc. multiple times per round? For the most part I think you'll be getting shot at once or not at all with such things. You don't have to sacrifice other abilities for Dex, you'll do just fine without it.
That being said, dex will come in handy for such a character, but they are hardly gimped without it.

[Eighth_Seraph]

It's a good class overall, but I really don't see it as being the all-around elite warrior that fighters are generally meant to be. Rather, it looks like an elite warrior trained in a city-state under siege by a tribe of warlocks. The class' special abilities are designed to overcome the melee warrior's ultimate weakness, which is good; but does so in a very specific manner.

Idea! Keep all the deflections of spell effects and all of that, but at each step, make them an option. What I mean is: The fighter takes Weapon Focus, Specialization and all their ilk to determine how his offense is, then uses his fighter abilities on focusing a defense. If the fighter stands on the castle wall shooting arrows he'll choose to train towards dodging projectiles; if he's in the thick of fighting he'll focus on blocking/dodging/parrying melee attacks and put some emphasis on projectiles just in case. If he trained while under siege by warlocks he'll learn to protect against and deflect spell effects.

Whattaya think? This would add variations to fighters without having to split them into multiple classes while keeping a very concrete structure.

[Lord Iames Osari]

That sounds good... suggestions for alternate abilities?

[elliott20]

I personally feel that the deflection abilities are a little too specific.

one of the fighters' strengths is how customizable he can be. The deflection abilities, while really cool, I feel would serve better as a feat tree.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay, but can someone come up with abilities to fill the levels that would be emptied?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Keep in mind, traditionally, the fighters are supposed to duke it out in melee combat whilst the mages engage in Duel Arcana. This guy is anti-wizard, but doesn't have much to go for against melee guys...

My suggestions:

Allow broad weapon specializations, much like the ToB class Warblade or something, with the ability to change your weapon-dependant feats out on a full round or even move action.

Give him bonuses to bluff for purposes of feinting ONLY equal to his BAB. Give a similar bonus to Sense Motive for purposes of avoiding a feint only.

Drop all the Reflect stuff, that way leads to the dark side of the farce.

Allow a Fighter to use Deflect Arrows with any melee weapon he has Specialization in, and change prereqs to Weapon Specialization. I always thought it was dumb to require improved unarmed combat. Anyone see the opening cinimatics to Soul Caliber II? Mitsurugi was actually parrying bullets with his katana. This sort of thing.

At later levels, allow him to deflect rays or other ranged touch attacks as though they were regular arrows.

Also, at later levels, give the Fighter Improved Deflect Arrows, which functions similar to Combat Reflexes: Gives you Dex Mod number of projectiles one can deflect.

Protect Ally: Deflect projectile aimed at ally within melee reach.

I love Mettle and Improved Mettle as written.

I don't agree with Evasion, however.

Perhaps a way to increase AC or DR from armor?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Keep in mind, traditionally, the fighters are supposed to duke it out in melee combat whilst the mages engage in Duel Arcana. This guy is anti-wizard, but doesn't have much to go for against melee guys...

My suggestions:

Allow broad weapon specializations, much like the ToB class Warblade or something, with the ability to change your weapon-dependant feats out on a full round or even move action.

Why not just import that ability wholesale? *wishes he hadn't left his ToB at home*


Give him bonuses to bluff for purposes of feinting ONLY equal to his BAB. Give a similar bonus to Sense Motive for purposes of avoiding a feint only.Is this in addition to having Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills, or in lieu thereof?


Drop all the Reflect stuff, that way leads to the dark side of the farce.Heh, okay.


Allow a Fighter to use Deflect Arrows with any melee weapon he has Specialization in, and change prereqs to Weapon Specialization. I always thought it was dumb to require improved unarmed combat. Anyone see the opening cinimatics to Soul Caliber II? Mitsurugi was actually parrying bullets with his katana. This sort of thing.Or just give it to him as a free feat...


At later levels, allow him to deflect rays or other ranged touch attacks as though they were regular arrows.

Also, at later levels, give the Fighter Improved Deflect Arrows, which functions similar to Combat Reflexes: Gives you Dex Mod number of projectiles one can deflect.

Protect Ally: Deflect projectile aimed at ally within melee reach.I like these.


I love Mettle and Improved Mettle as written.I can't take all the credit; Mettle was from the hexblade.


I don't agree with Evasion, however.Why not?


Perhaps a way to increase AC or DR from armor?

You mean like the feats the Giant made up?

[Marcotic]

Yes, but how many NPC guards are going to have Fighter class levels?

Before, few. With this fix, just about every gaurd. Really there is (with this fix) little realistic reason to have any other class for gaurd, he is the very epitome of guarding.


It makes sense to me that Fighters should be able to read people. Think about officers of some kind having to understand their troops, and how do you think they know people are going to feint in the first place? Its reading expression and intent. Sense Motive. It really does overlap.

Yes it does make sense it makes perfect sense, but that doesn't necisarrily mean that they should have access to it. In Battle there ability to "Sense motive" is expressed in there high BAB. Arguably that simply isn't enough to make good at avoiding a feint, but to give them full access to Sensemotive is too much, it makes them unfientable, and it wouldn't that suck for any feint artist?
Further, why would a fighter be a leader? wouldn't the duke or king (nobles) be the leader?
Finally there's a problem that I see if you want to set up skills based on what makes sense. If you set it up like that, any class can say that it "makes sense" to have access to just about any skill.



Bluff makes similar sense, as it can explain soldiers being taught what to do when captured, or just someone knowing how to feint.
Again, if that doesn't fit the idea of your character, you don't have to invest skill points in it. Its not like you will have many skill points as a fighter anyways.
well, with this change, thats 4 skill points per level. I would choose to max the good skills, not the less useful ones, namely.
Sense Motive, Bluff, Listen, Spot. I do play for roll play's sake, but these skills are the best on the list IMO , and if offered, I'd feel I was gimping myself for not taking them.
Im not saying that the (non-fixed) fighter couldn't use better skill points, or better skills but as already stated I see the fighter as a fighter, not someone that is amazing at negotiatiation and anti-interigation.


Also, you have TONS of bonus feats. Combat Reflexes will be easily gained, and furthermore (as already stated) damage spells are one of the worst things a spellcaster can do (especially to you, a fighter with lots of HP), so you'd better be more worried about your Will save.
Besides, do you EXPECT to get shot at with a line/ray/etc. multiple times per round? For the most part I think you'll be getting shot at once or not at all with such things. You don't have to sacrifice other abilities for Dex, you'll do just fine without it.
That being said, dex will come in handy for such a character, but they are hardly gimped without it.

No, I don't expect to get hit with more then one ray, but I do expect to have someone in my face whilst getting hit with a ray. so having a 14 dex is the only way that i can consivably use my class feature, and still do my job of not letting creatures merely stroll through my threatened squares. Hence my thoght that changing it to a non AoO would help the fighter and help with MAD.

Let me just say in conclusion, that any time look at a new class/fix I try my best to see
A. Why these changes were made.
in this case obvious.
B. Do these changes complete there task
yes
C. Do these changes step on another classes toes? if so how much?
Yes, quasi fighting/skill classes (monk, ranger, Swashbuck), are made less appealing. The addition of spot and listen are good, bluff is bad, Sense motive isn't really necisarry, but an in combat bonus maybe. One of the main reasons that people play classes like the monk and the ranger are the fact that there lax fighting prowess is made up for by there better skill prowess (i know that was the deciding factor with my Monk) but with this fix I can't easily justify choosing a monk or a ranger or rather, its far too easy for me to choose this new and improved fighter, that tells me it's probably unbalanced.
D. How do these changes fit in to the grand theme of things.
The new skills make getting past a fighter can be done by another fighter. If he can't talk his way in he can just beat his way in. This steps on the toes of any sneaky class because sneaking in would mean 2 succesful rolls instead of just one.
E. Does it make a class too good.
Not terribly, but all things considered, it makes the fighter THE chose for a combantant, those out of battle options means that he wins hands down.

Wow this ones long. I hope I don't seem like a stick in the mud, but I just really want this class to be the best it can be, not sort of cheesy and/or too good Im not perfect, don't claim to be, but as we know, logical argument is the best way to lead to the best answer

[AmberVael]

Before, few. With this fix, just about every guard. Really there is (with this fix) little realistic reason to have any other class for guard, he is the very epitome of guarding.
If you have your common guards in a PC class, then yeah, it will be a problem.
However...
NPCs aren't SUPPOSED to have PC class levels. The guards that do are supposed to be superior to the normal people, and therefore you should have a harder time with them.


Yes it does make sense it makes perfect sense, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should have access to it. In Battle there ability to "Sense motive" is expressed in there high BAB. Arguably that simply isn't enough to make good at avoiding a feint, but to give them full access to Sense Motive is too much, it makes them unfeintable, and it wouldn't that suck for any feint artist?
Anyone who can feint a fighter should be a fighter, or simply a very clever rogue (who will be far more likely to put skills in this, once again).


Further, why would a fighter be a leader? wouldn't the duke or king (nobles) be the leader?
The fighter wouldn't lead and fund the army, true, but they are the type who would be officers in said army, because they were the ones who didn't die.


Finally there's a problem that I see if you want to set up skills based on what makes sense. If you set it up like that, any class can say that it "makes sense" to have access to just about any skill.
What I am saying is that there is just as much sense in a fighter having it as there is a rogue having it. A wizard, for example, doesn't have nearly as much justification as either class.



Well, with this change, that's 4 skill points per level. I would choose to max the good skills, not the less useful ones, namely.
Sense Motive, Bluff, Listen, Spot. I do play for roleplay's sake, but these skills are the best on the list IMO , and if offered, I'd feel I was gimping myself for not taking them.
I'm not saying that the (non-fixed) fighter couldn't use better skill points, or better skills but as already stated I see the fighter as a fighter, not someone that is amazing at negotiation and anti-interrogation.
A fighter who takes only those four skills will be in some bad spots... seriously, in a good campaign a fighter would NOT want to just take those skills, if at all. The physical skills are quite necessary.



No, I don't expect to get hit with more then one ray, but I do expect to have someone in my face whilst getting hit with a ray. so having a 14 dex is the only way that i can conceivably use my class feature, and still do my job of not letting creatures merely stroll through my threatened squares. Hence my thought that changing it to a non AoO would help the fighter and help with MAD.
That is why the ability is balanced- it calls on something already there and uses it, rather than giving you an entirely new ability.
It makes sense mechanically and logically. If you are bouncing some wizard's ray off of your shield, you won't be able to swipe at the guy beside you.


In conclusion: spell check is your friend.

[Marcotic]

If you have your common guards in a PC class, then yeah, it will be a problem.
However...
NPCs aren't SUPPOSED to have PC class levels. The guards that do are supposed to be superior to the normal people, and therefore you should have a harder time with them.


Anyone who can feint a fighter should be a fighter, or simply a very clever rogue (who will be far more likely to put skills in this, once again).


The fighter wouldn't lead and fund the army, true, but they are the type who would be officers in said army, because they were the ones who didn't die.


What I am saying is that there is just as much sense in a fighter having it as there is a rogue having it. A wizard, for example, doesn't have nearly as much justification as either class.



A fighter who takes only those four skills will be in some bad spots... seriously, in a good campaign a fighter would NOT want to just take those skills, if at all. The physical skills are quite necessary.



That is why the ability is balanced- it calls on something already there and uses it, rather than giving you an entirely new ability.
It makes sense mechanically and logically. If you are bouncing some wizard's ray off of your shield, you won't be able to swipe at the guy beside you.


In conclusion: spell check is your friend.

Meh all true i spose, now answer why i would pick the ranger over this class and then you'll have successfully changed my mind.

[AmberVael]

...
My real thought: Why would you pick the ranger in the first place? (I despise the ranger...)

Honestly, you probably wouldn't. However, that doesn't mean that this class is bad, it means that the ranger needs a redux as well.

However, for a quick look at why you might-
Favored Enemy can be interesting
Track is handy
Spells are good.
6+ skills points is nice.
Good reflex save
Extra wilderness stuff- lots.
Plus they share a few things.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why not just import that ability wholesale? *wishes he hadn't left his ToB at home*

Is this in addition to having Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills, or in lieu thereof? In Lieu of. In short, a Fighter is able to feint, and be able to see a feint, as that is his baliwick. Knowing if the Duke of Sandoval is lying through his teeth when reporting his income, on the other hand, would be a mystery to him.


Or just give it to him as a free feat...
The problem is the feat, as written, requires a free hand. I want someone who is wielding a two-handed weapon, duo-wielding, or using sword-and-board to be able to use it just as easily.


Why not?
Because the big beefy fighter is the one who is standing toe-to-toe on the front line. Shrugging off things which would have outright slain a lesser person (i.e. Finger of Death) is quite in the baliwick of the Fighter. Nimbly dodging out of the way of a fireball, on the other hand, is far less so. Perhaps change it to something which lets him use a Fort save instead of a Reflex save. If he does, he does NOT get the Mettle or Improved Mettle ability applied, but instead takes 1/2 damage on a successful save. This is advantagous to him, as his Fort save is GOING to be higher than his Ref save. Cinimatically, this is ye ol wizard launching a fireball down at the fighter, chortling as the fireball hits dead on, then gasping as the fighter walks out of the flaming sphere, singed but not too badly hurt, and really really pissed looking. I'd also give 'em a D12 hit die. That way he really CAN eat half of every nuke thrown at him, and still keep going.


You mean like the feats the Giant made up?

Very much so. Pehaps give him DR x/- like the Barbarian has in Core, just because he's that tough.

[Lord Iames Osari]

In Lieu of. In short, a Fighter is able to feint, and be able to see a feint, as that is his baliwick. Knowing if the Duke of Sandoval is lying through his teeth when reporting his income, on the other hand, would be a mystery to him.

Maybe, maybe not. Would he be able to tell when the new recruit is lying about being ill to get out of training? Would he be able to tell when a quartermaster isn't being as honest about his stock as he claims to be? Not every fighter would be able to, but then, there's where the investiture of skill points comes in. If you don't want your fighter to be good at sensing motives, don't give him the skill.

With regards to Bluff: Old warriors are notorious for spinning absolutely convincing tales of their fabulous exploits, and officers have to be able to hide their fear in front of their men. Noncoms have to be able to lie with a straight face to their clueless lieutenants, and so on and so on.


The problem is the feat, as written, requires a free hand. I want someone who is wielding a two-handed weapon, duo-wielding, or using sword-and-board to be able to use it just as easily.

Ah, yes. This is what I get for not bothering to look at the feat first. What level would you recommend?


Because the big beefy fighter is the one who is standing toe-to-toe on the front line. Shrugging off things which would have outright slain a lesser person (i.e. Finger of Death) is quite in the baliwick of the Fighter. Nimbly dodging out of the way of a fireball, on the other hand, is far less so. Perhaps change it to something which lets him use a Fort save instead of a Reflex save. If he does, he does NOT get the Mettle or Improved Mettle ability applied, but instead takes 1/2 damage on a successful save. This is advantagous to him, as his Fort save is GOING to be higher than his Ref save. Cinimatically, this is ye ol wizard launching a fireball down at the fighter, chortling as the fireball hits dead on, then gasping as the fighter walks out of the flaming sphere, singed but not too badly hurt, and really really pissed looking. I'd also give 'em a D12 hit die. That way he really CAN eat half of every nuke thrown at him, and still keep going.

Hmm. I half-agree with this; I think that after 10 levels a fighter would learn to be a bit quick on his feet (hence why I gave him evasion), but at the same time, I can appreciate the badassness of what you just described. I'm a bit hesitant to giving him a d12 HD, though.


Very much so. Pehaps give him DR x/- like the Barbarian has in Core, just because he's that tough.

Eh. I'd really rather avoid stepping on the Barbarian's toes. In my mind, the Barbarian is the BigTough Angry Guy, and the fighter is the guy who, while tough, is also smart enough to have studied a bit - he avoids damage as well as absorbing and dishing it out.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe, maybe not. Would he be able to tell when the new recruit is lying about being ill to get out of training? Would he be able to tell when a quartermaster isn't being as honest about his stock as he claims to be? Not every fighter would be able to, but then, there's where the investiture of skill points comes in. If you don't want your fighter to be good at sensing motives, don't give him the skill.

With regards to Bluff: Old warriors are notorious for spinning absolutely convincing tales of their fabulous exploits, and officers have to be able to hide their fear in front of their men. Noncoms have to be able to lie with a straight face to their clueless lieutenants, and so on and so on.

You can purchase cross-class ranks in skills. I still don't think even the most glib-tongued noncom is able to match the patter of a three-card-monty con artist, though.




Ah, yes. This is what I get for not bothering to look at the feat first. What level would you recommend?

Monks get it at like 2nd level, right? Try something like 4th level then. Improved version at 8 for Dex Mod/day, and 12th for the Greater where they can parry ranged touch attack spells and things like giant boulders.



Hmm. I half-agree with this; I think that after 10 levels a fighter would learn to be a bit quick on his feet (hence why I gave him evasion), but at the same time, I can appreciate the badassness of what you just described. I'm a bit hesitant to giving him a d12 HD, though.
Okay, perhaps not d12 hit die, but even with D10 hit die, with decent Con score, being able to sub out a Fort save for half (being ineligable for the Mettle/Improved Mettle abilities) would still mean walking through a fireball (Maxed out Fireball would do 60 damage. A 10th level Fighter should have around 80 or so hit points with a good con score. He could eat 30 damage, and still have over half his hit points left. Bring it, I want seconds!



Eh. I'd really rather avoid stepping on the Barbarian's toes. In my mind, the Barbarian is the BigTough Angry Guy, and the fighter is the guy who, while tough, is also smart enough to have studied a bit - he avoids damage as well as absorbing and dishing it out.

Yea, you see, the Barbarian I could see with Evasion. Not so much the Fighter. Maybe just give the Fighter bonuses to DR from armor (like, say, Adamantine full plate?), maybe link it to armor specialization or something?

[Marcotic]

In Lieu of. In short, a Fighter is able to feint, and be able to see a feint, as that is his baliwick. Knowing if the Duke of Sandoval is lying through his teeth when reporting his income, on the other hand, would be a mystery to him.
I aggre leave sensing lyers to rogues, or skilled melleists, people who's job it is to do those things, leave fighter to (mostly) fight.

[Marcotic]

Maybe, maybe not. Would he be able to tell when the new recruit is lying about being ill to get out of training? Would he be able to tell when a quartermaster isn't being as honest about his stock as he claims to be? Not every fighter would be able to, but then, there's where the investiture of skill points comes in. If you don't want your fighter to be good at sensing motives, don't give him the skill.
What if your the DM trying to make sure that the fighter doesn't steal the rogues thunder? I look at this class from a DM's perspective, and most the skill just scream step on toes.



With regards to Bluff: Old warriors are notorious for spinning absolutely convincing tales of their fabulous exploits, and officers have to be able to hide their fear in front of their men. Noncoms have to be able to lie with a straight face to their clueless lieutenants, and so on and so on.
thats true, but, before this class change, it would be untrained lyers VS untrained detecters, the only differance is that the Untrained lyer's probly got a better then average CHA.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Fighter

HD: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int)*, Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Bonus feat, weapon aptitude
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Mettle
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Deflection
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Withstand
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Improved deflection
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus feat, improved mettle
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Ally deflection
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Greater deflection
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|~
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|~
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|~
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus feat[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As standard fighter.
Bonus Feats: As standard fighter.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the fighter can resist magical and unusual effects with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a succesful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Deflection (Ex): At 5th level, the fighter gains the ability to deflect one ranged attack per round. This ability functions as the Deflect Arrows feat, except that the fighter does not need a free hand to use it.
Withstand (Ex): Starting at 7th level, whenever the fighter would be subject to an effect allowing him a Reflex save to take half damage, he may substitute a Fortitude save instead. The benefits of mettle and improved mettle do not apply to Fortitude saves made as a result of this ability.
Improved Deflection (Ex): At 9th level, a fighter's deflection ability improves; he can now deflect a number of ranged attacks equal to 1 + his Dex mod.
Improved Mettle (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter’s mettle ability improves. He still suffers no effect on a successful save, but he now takes only the lesser effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefits of improved mettle.
Ally Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks that are targeting allies within his melee reach in addition to those targeting himself.
Greater Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks generated by spell effects and unusual ranged attacks with his deflection ability.
[hr]
How's that? I need abilities to fill in the dead levels, as well as a capstone ability, but what do you think so far?

[Lord Iames Osari]

What if your the DM trying to make sure that the fighter doesn't steal the rogues thunder? I look at this class from a DM's perspective, and most the skill just scream step on toes.

thats true, but, before this class change, it would be untrained lyers VS untrained detecters, the only differance is that the Untrained lyer's probly got a better then average CHA.

You know what? I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One thing:

I noticed you gave them good Will save. This is a problem, because they have a good Fort save, and can sub out a Fort save for a Ref save, effectively giving them all three good saves. I'd give them a poor Will save, then give them a bonus to their will save vs specific effects (probably against Mind Affecting Charm or Enchantment effects) equal to their Charisma mod (which introduces MAD to balance the class in an interesting way).

This could be your 15th level ability.

Other than the 'we'll have to agree to disagree' on the Bluff/Sense Motive topic, and the save issue, I like your Fighter as re-written.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Hmmm. How about making Withstand only usable a certain number of times per day?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm. How about making Withstand only usable a certain number of times per day?

That might work, but how many times? Too few and it might as well not be bothered with. Too many and it might as well be unlimited. How many times are you going to run across a Reflex save in an average day adventuring anyways?

[Eighth_Seraph]

At the risk at beginning a Reflex save war, I'd like to say that giving the fighter the equivalent of three good saves (which is what Withstand almost gives) is a bit much. The problem is that there will be fighters (those poor short-end-of-the-stick TWF fighters) who focus on Dexterity as opposed to Strength, and can end up getting a Dex bonus to AC that makes it worthwhile to get Mithral instead of Adamantine armor. My point? Upon first fighter level, a fighter may choose to switch his Fortitude save progression with his Reflex save progression. It would be a huge pain to spell that out in the table, though.

This would also be reflected in whether the fighter gets Mettle or Evasion. Both is too much to a large degree.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ahh, found the Warblade's thingy on changing specializations...

Weapon Aptitude (Ex): the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.

I think this would make a wonderful contribution to your Fighter redoux.

[Roderick_BR]

Looking good. Maybe spread the Mettle into separate Will and Fortitude abilities at different levels. As is, once you get Improved Mettle, you don't need to level up in the class anymore.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Hmmm. I agree with Eighth Seraph, Withstand is a bit too powerful. I'm changing it back to evasion, which still gives the fighter a bit of a boost on Reflex saves, but not a huge one.
[hr]
Fighter

HD: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int)*, Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Bonus feat, weapon aptitude
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Mettle
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Deflection
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Evasion
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Improved deflection
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus feat, improved mettle
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Ally deflection, preemptive counterstrike
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Greater deflection
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Weapon attunement
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|~
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|~
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus feat, weaponmaster[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As standard fighter.
Bonus Feats: As standard fighter.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the fighter can resist magical and unusual effects with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a succesful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Deflection (Ex): At 5th level, the fighter gains the ability to deflect one ranged attack per round. This ability functions as the Deflect Arrows feat, except that the fighter does not need a free hand to use it.
Evasion (Ex): Starting at 7th level, whenever the fighter would be subject to an effect allowing him a Reflex save to take half damage, he takes no damage on a successful save.
Improved Deflection (Ex): At 9th level, a fighter's deflection ability improves; he can now deflect a number of ranged attacks equal to 1 + his Dex mod.
Improved Mettle (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter’s mettle ability improves. He still suffers no effect on a successful save, but he now takes only the lesser effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefits of improved mettle.
Ally Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks that are targeting allies within his melee reach in addition to those targeting himself.
Preemptive Counterstrike (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, when attacked, a fighter may once per round make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who attacks him. This attack of opportunity takes place after the attack is declared but before any dice are rolled. If his attack hits, his opponent takes a -5 penalty on his attack rolls against the fighter for that round.
Greater Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks generated by spell effects and unusual ranged attacks with his deflection ability.
Weapon Attunement (Su): Beginning at 15th level, when wielding a weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat, a fighter applies 1.5 times the weapon's magical enhancement bonus to damage. The bonus damage resulting from magical weapon abilities that add extra damage dice is also increased by 50%.
Weaponmaster (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter is so skilled in armed combat that he may perform maneuvers with them that most would not even believe possible. Feats and abilities that let the fighter sacrifice one statistic to benefit another (like Power Attack or Combat Expertise) increase their returns by 1.5, so that a fighter who uses Combat Expertise and sacrifices five points of attack bonus gains seven points of AC. Other feats and abilities that give a fighter a set bonus to attack, damage, or AC (such as Weapon Specialization or Dodge) multiply their bonuses by 2.

Furthermore, threat ranges on all weapons he wields are increased by one point. This is above and beyond the effects of effects like Improved Critical, and is added after the effects of effects that alter critical threat ranges (so that a keen greataxe +1 would have a critical threat range of 18-20, while a keen greatsword +1 would have a critical threat range of 16-20).
[hr]
And I still need abilities for levels 17 and 19.

[Fax Celestis]

Capstone:

Weaponmaster (Ex): A fighter is so skilled in armed combat that he may perform maneuvers with them that most would not even believe possible. A fighter adds an additional +50% to any damage modifiers he has, including those gained from feats like Power Attack. Further, his penalties for fighting with two weapons reduce to -1 for both his primary and off-hands, regardless of weapon size.

Furthermore, threat ranges on all weapons he wields are increased by one point. This is above and beyond the effects of effects like Improved Critical, and is added after the effects of effects that alter critical threat ranges (so that a keen greataxe +1 would have a critical threat range of 18-20, while a keen greatsword +1 would have a critical threat range of 16-20).

Feats and abilities that let the fighter sacrifice one statistic to benefit another (like Power Attack or Combat Expertise) increase their returns by 1.5, so that a fighter who uses Combat Expertise and sacrifices five points of attack bonus gains seven points of AC. Other feats and abilities that give a fighter a set bonus to attack, damage, or AC (such as Weapon Specialization or Dodge) multiply their bonuses by 2.

[hr]
As for another ability?

Preemptive Counterstrike (Ex): Once per round, when attacked, a fighter may make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who attacks him. If he succeeds, his opponent takes a -5 penalty on his attack rolls against the fighter for that round.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Very nice. I like them. I'm not sure exactly how Preemptive Counterstrike would work though...

[Fax Celestis]

Very nice. I like them. I'm not sure exactly how Preemptive Counterstrike would work though...

How so? It's basically "I hack your arm mid-swing so that I can hopefully foul your aim a bit."

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yes, but in what order are the attacks resolved? Does the fighter get his AoO when the attack is declared, but before his opponent rolls, or after the roll? If it occurs after the roll, does the penalty apply retroactively, or not? What happens with full attacks? Does the fighter get an AoO for every attack roll that would be made, or just one?

[Fax Celestis]

It's "once per round", so he only would get it before one attack of his choosing. It only affects attacks after the activation of the ability, and only affects swings directed in his direction. The intention would be for the AoO to take place after the declaration but before any rolls, and it does take an AoO use.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Okay, added them in.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Ok, one last push is all it'll take - I need an ability for 19th level, and then we're done.
[hr]
Fighter

HD: d10.
Class Skills
The fighter's class skills (and key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (war) (Int)*, Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int mod) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int mod

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Bonus feat, weapon aptitude
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Mettle
4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Bonus feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Deflection
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Bonus feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Evasion
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Improved deflection
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Bonus feat, improved mettle
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Ally deflection, preemptive counterstrike
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Greater deflection
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Weapon attunement
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Critical expertise 1/day
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Critical expertise 2/day
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus feat, weaponmaster[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As standard fighter.
Bonus Feats: As standard fighter.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): Starting at 1st level, the Fighter has the flexibility to adjust his weapon training. He can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). He must have the newly designated weapon available during his practice session to make this change. For example, if he wishes to change the designated weapon for his Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, he must have a longsword available to practice with during his practice session.
He can adjust any number of his feats in this way, and he doesn't have to adjust them all in the same way. However, he can't change the weapon choices in such a way that he no longer meets the prerequisite for some other feat he possesses. For instance, if he has both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), he can't change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless he also changes the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, the fighter can resist magical and unusual effects with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a succesful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Deflection (Ex): At 5th level, the fighter gains the ability to deflect one ranged attack per round. This ability functions as the Deflect Arrows feat, except that the fighter does not need a free hand to use it.
Evasion (Ex): Starting at 7th level, whenever the fighter would be subject to an effect allowing him a Reflex save to take half damage, he takes no damage on a successful save.
Improved Deflection (Ex): At 9th level, a fighter's deflection ability improves; he can now deflect a number of ranged attacks equal to 1 + his Dex mod.
Improved Mettle (Ex): At 10th level, a fighter’s mettle ability improves. He still suffers no effect on a successful save, but he now takes only the lesser effect on a failed save. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefits of improved mettle.
Ally Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks that are targeting allies within his melee reach in addition to those targeting himself.
Preemptive Counterstrike (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, when attacked, a fighter may once per round make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who attacks him. This attack of opportunity takes place after the attack is declared but before any dice are rolled. If his attack hits, his opponent takes a -5 penalty on his attack rolls against the fighter for that round.
Greater Deflection (Ex): Beginning at 13th level, a fighter can deflect ranged attacks generated by spell effects and unusual ranged attacks with his deflection ability.
Weapon Attunement (Su): Beginning at 15th level, when wielding a weapon for which he has the Weapon Focus feat, a fighter applies 1.5 times the weapon's magical enhancement bonus to damage. The bonus damage resulting from magical weapon abilities that add extra damage dice is also increased by 50%.
Critical Expertise (Ex): Once per day beginning at 17th level, a fighter can make an attack that instantly kills its target. He must declare his intent to use this ability beforehand, and creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this ability. Otherwise, if the fighter successfully makes a melee attack and the target takes damage, the target must then make a Fortitude save against DC 11 + 1/2 the fighter's class levels + Wisdom modifier or die instantly. If the target succeeds on its save, it still takes triple the damage the fighter dealt. If the fighter acheived a critical hit using this ability, the target takes a -4 penalty on his save and takes quadruple damage on a success.

Starting at 19th level, the fighter can use this ability twice per day.
Weaponmaster (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter is so skilled in armed combat that he may perform maneuvers with them that most would not even believe possible. Feats and abilities that let the fighter sacrifice one statistic to benefit another (like Power Attack or Combat Expertise) increase their returns by 1.5, so that a fighter who uses Combat Expertise and sacrifices five points of attack bonus gains seven points of AC. Other feats and abilities that give a fighter a set bonus to attack, damage, or AC (such as Weapon Specialization or Dodge) multiply their bonuses by 2.

Furthermore, threat ranges on all weapons he wields are increased by one point. This is above and beyond the effects of effects like Improved Critical, and is added after the effects of effects that alter critical threat ranges (so that a keen greataxe +1 would have a critical threat range of 18-20, while a keen greatsword +1 would have a critical threat range of 16-20).