A necessary houserule, probably ought to come from WotC as errata

[Shining Wrath]

We know there will be future releases of more Monster Manuals, which means more creatures of the classes (Elementals, Fey, Celestials, ...) which can be summoned. And with Conjure Woodland Beings (Pixies), we already have one example of something incredibly broken.

Specifically, Pixies have two spells of level 4 (Confuse, Polymorph) that they may cast 1/day, and two more of level 3, also 1/day. That gives a druid or bard using CWB 8 Pixies, who if the battle lasts for 4 rounds might very well collectively cast 16 level 4 spells and 16 level 3 spells. And since CWB requires a 4th level slot to cast, they have gotten many times the energy put into the spell in new spells cast, and also broken the action economy rather spectacularly.

Therefore, I propose this houserule:

Limitation on spell casting by conjured creatures

A conjured creature may not cast any spell with a level as high as the conjuring spell minus one, or higher. Thus, a creature summoned with Conjure Woodland Beings (a spell of level 4) cannot cast any spells of level 3 or higher.

This limitation also applies to emulation of spells using spell-like effects and / or class features, interpreted broadly.

Casting a conjuration spell with a higher level slot does not increase the spell level usable by the conjured creatures.

So you can get 8 Sleep spells out of your conjured Pixies (which is still pretty sweet), but not 8 Polymorphs. If you cast a Conjure spell using a higher level slot, it is still a spell of the original level; you just get 2x more Pixies who can't cast 3rd or 4th level spells.

This not only unbreaks CWB but prevents future Monster Manual releases from breaking Conjure Elemental, Conjure Celestial, and so on.

[Fwiffo86]

We know there will be future releases of more Monster Manuals, which means more creatures of the classes (Elementals, Fey, Celestials, ...) which can be summoned. And with Conjure Woodland Beings (Pixies), we already have one example of something incredibly broken.

Specifically, Pixies have two spells of level 4 (Confuse, Polymorph) that they may cast 1/day, and two more of level 3, also 1/day. That gives a druid or bard using CWB 8 Pixies, who if the battle lasts for 4 rounds might very well collectively cast 16 level 4 spells and 16 level 3 spells. And since CWB requires a 4th level slot to cast, they have gotten many times the energy put into the spell in new spells cast, and also broken the action economy rather spectacularly.

Therefore, I propose this houserule:

Limitation on spell casting by conjured creatures

A conjured creature may not cast any spell with a level as high as the conjuring spell minus one, or higher. Thus, a creature summoned with Conjure Woodland Beings (a spell of level 4) cannot cast any spells of level 3 or higher.

This limitation also applies to emulation of spells using spell-like effects and / or class features, interpreted broadly.

Casting a conjuration spell with a higher level slot does not increase the spell level usable by the conjured creatures.

So you can get 8 Sleep spells out of your conjured Pixies (which is still pretty sweet), but not 8 Polymorphs. If you cast a Conjure spell using a higher level slot, it is still a spell of the original level; you just get 2x more Pixies who can't cast 3rd or 4th level spells.

This not only unbreaks CWB but prevents future Monster Manual releases from breaking Conjure Elemental, Conjure Celestial, and so on.

I have been requiring all 8 pixies to cast a single spell or the spell fails. This falls in line with the idea of fairy casting rings and such. So you don't get 8 polymorphs/sleeps/etc. You get one, as it takes 8 of them to cast the spell together.

[Eslin]

5e's an edition based around simplicity, and that's a complicated rule for a specific instance. I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It's unnecessary to future proof house rules against theoretical future releases. Conjure Woodland Beings is potentially broken, but it's easier to houserule fix it specifically; i.e. pixies are controlled by the DM and will act in whichever way they think is hilarious rather than according to the whims of the caster.

WOTC is surely aware of the pixie issue... hopefully keeping it in mind for the future.

P.S. A strict reading of Conjure Woodland Beings means that the caster doesn't actually choose *which* creatures appear...just their CR. So a DM can RAW mix Sprites and Blink Dogs into any CR 1/4 casting.

[Eslin]

It's unnecessary to future proof house rules against theoretical future releases. Conjure Woodland Beings is potentially broken, but it's easier to houserule fix it specifically; i.e. pixies are controlled by the DM and will act in whichever way they think is hilarious rather than according to the whims of the caster.

WOTC is surely aware of the pixie issue... hopefully keeping it in mind for the future.

P.S. A strict reading of Conjure Woodland Beings means that the caster doesn't actually choose *which* creatures appear...just their CR. So a DM can RAW mix Sprites and Blink Dogs into any CR 1/4 casting.

The same reading of which says that the player can't choose what they fabricate, polymorph into, etc. Reading it like that is willfully screwing things up just because you don't like the spell in question - that reading renders a vast swathe of spells useless.

If you don't like a spell, just tell the players they can't have it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The ability to bring fey creatures to ones aid is important for many PC and NPC character concepts. It's better to balance or fix the spell rather than eliminate it.

Pixies in particular were never meant to be munchkin'd; they have powerful spells because it is required for their concept. They are balanced if played by the DM according to their capricious nature.

[archaeo]

The ability to bring fey creatures to ones aid is important for many PC and NPC character concepts. It's better to balance or fix the spell rather than eliminate it.

Right, but Eslin's point is that the "If it says the DM has the statistics, the DM must be the one controlling the creatures" ruling is one that has pretty far-reaching consequences for conjurers generally, and it'd be a big enough break from tradition to merit being specifically called out if the designers really intended it to be read that way.

Personally, I'm of the belief that a bunch of low-powered sleep and polymorph rolls will probably not be as useful as they might seem when casters start getting access to the spell, and if they are, well, so the Druid/Ranger/Whatever gets a cool thing to do in combat. It's not exactly hard to keep it from overpowering your game.

Edited to add: it's also an easy spell to houserule; just nerf pixies, or the pixies that show up when you cast the spell. That'd be the angle I went in for errata, anyway.

[Eslin]

Right, but Eslin's point is that the "If it says the DM has the statistics, the DM must be the one controlling the creatures" ruling is one that has pretty far-reaching consequences for conjurers generally, and it'd be a big enough break from tradition to merit being specifically called out if the designers really intended it to be read that way.

Personally, I'm of the belief that a bunch of low-powered sleep and polymorph rolls will probably not be as useful as they might seem when casters start getting access to the spell, and if they are, well, so the Druid/Ranger/Whatever gets a cool thing to do in combat. It's not exactly hard to keep it from overpowering your game.

Edited to add: it's also an easy spell to houserule; just nerf pixies, or the pixies that show up when you cast the spell. That'd be the angle I went in for errata, anyway.

It's not just summoning. That exact same wording applies to a huge number of spells - if you can't choose what you summon, you can't choose what you polymorph into.

[Fwiffo86]

A suggestion might be an extension of what I like to do.

Summon/Conjure spells require names. And every time you use it, you summon the same creature. If that creature get's killed, you can't use that spell for 1 game year. This works exceptionally well in mitigating using a summon as a meat shield, not worrying about if the creature dies or not. Also, it requires an additional "summon" spell per creature. So you really have to put thought into which one you want to prep (if you have to).

The same could be done for polymorph easily. You know a spell to polymorph people into frogs (the most iconic if you ask me) as one spell, then another polymorph spell to turn people into sheep (totally WoW here).

Keeps spells like Polymorph: Dragon rare, powerful, and completely in the hands of the DM to make available.

[RealCheese]

Another potentially DM-modified fact to this spell: Who says these pixies has not already used some of their castings\day before you summon them? I would allow a few of them to have a few of their spells available, but never all of them to have all of their spells available.

[Eslin]

Another potentially DM-modified fact to this spell: Who says these pixies has not already used some of their castings\day before you summon them? I would allow a few of them to have a few of their spells available, but never all of them to have all of their spells available.

The same thing that says when you summon a wolf it has full hit points. It tells you to take the stats from the monster manual, changes like reduced spells would be called out in the CWB description.

[RealCheese]

It tells you to take the stats from the monster manual,
Nope, it tells you that the DM has the statistics. Nothing about the monster manual is mentioned.

[Shining Wrath]

It's unnecessary to future proof house rules against theoretical future releases. Conjure Woodland Beings is potentially broken, but it's easier to houserule fix it specifically; i.e. pixies are controlled by the DM and will act in whichever way they think is hilarious rather than according to the whims of the caster.

WOTC is surely aware of the pixie issue... hopefully keeping it in mind for the future.

P.S. A strict reading of Conjure Woodland Beings means that the caster doesn't actually choose *which* creatures appear...just their CR. So a DM can RAW mix Sprites and Blink Dogs into any CR 1/4 casting.


The same reading of which says that the player can't choose what they fabricate, polymorph into, etc. Reading it like that is willfully screwing things up just because you don't like the spell in question - that reading renders a vast swathe of spells useless.

If you don't like a spell, just tell the players they can't have it.


The ability to bring fey creatures to ones aid is important for many PC and NPC character concepts. It's better to balance or fix the spell rather than eliminate it.

Pixies in particular were never meant to be munchkin'd; they have powerful spells because it is required for their concept. They are balanced if played by the DM according to their capricious nature.

The spell explicitly says the Pixies (or whatever) obey your verbal commands. And I think it's pretty important that the caster choose what he gets - extending the example to other conjuration spells, calling a bunch of fire elementals to a battle on board a ship is a Very Bad Thing. If you can choose which element you get, you can choose which woodland being you get.

Therefore, the proposed solutions are likewise houserules. We can
1) Turn conjured beings into NPCs under the control of the DM
2) Change the spells so that you obtain a random result from a table (which would have to be updated with each release of new monster manuals), or DM fiat (which sounds like an excellent way to have fist fights among less mature DM / player combos)
3) Do something along the lines of my original proposal: you can't get more spells slots out of a conjuration than you put into it.

In fact, maybe that's the simple solution Eslin is looking for: the total number of spell slots used by conjured creatures cannot be greater than the spell slot used to summon them, which means you get a single L4 spell out of your pixie swarm and then the rest become martial combatants and probably die horribly.

I think (1) does have some potential, as it seems flavorful; if you summon a swarm of pixies to help you kill some werewolves or zombies, they fight with all their little adorable hearts on your side. If you summon a swarm of pixies to ensure the orphan bunny rabbits can't escape from the bunny orphanage you just set on fire, your results will probably not be according to your desires.

[Shining Wrath]

Nope, it tells you that the DM has the statistics. Nothing about the monster manual is mentioned.

Eslin is still correct, though; you don't get creatures that just came from another combat, you get fresh, unused ones.

[rollingForInit]

I think an easier houserule is simply for the DM to determine which creatures can be used, or limit OP'd creatures.

The spell in question says that the DM has the statistics; it says nothing about the stats being those described in the MM. If a DM feels that the MM pixies are overpowered in regards to the spell, the DM can just say that the Pixies cannot cast all of those spells, or limited the number of spells cast. Or change them in whatever way he wants, really. Or simply decide that Pixies do not exist in the current universe.

[kaoskonfety]

"You summon Jillian, Zero, Cool Beans and Breezy Pants the Enchanter - the worlds least helpful pixies. On their turn they take cover and immediately begin debating the ethics of transforming thinking beings into fish against their will and on dry land. Several rounds later they have come the the conclusion their summoner is a meany pants and that sparkles are neato."

As tempting as I find this scene there are a stack of answers to summoning low HP/high magic threat creatures that don't require errata or hosing the summoner with useless or random dudes.

Topping the off the top of my head list, damage: fireball kills pixies right? they didn't become immune to fire or magic (seriously, I'm not sure, I'm at work, they frown on flipping though gaming books)? Magic missile, burning hands, any of the attack cantrips, arrows, sword blows, any environment hostile enough to do round by round damage to the unprotected... I'm sure there is more... cloud kill... mmm, cloud kill.

I can see arguments both ways but at its heart summoning should be a bit of a risk: "does my creature die before I get my moneys worth". I expect a 4th level spell slot to be doing some decent work when I use it and if summoning several sprites to make the big bad sad just changes his action from 3rd level magic missile to 3rd level fireball I'm going to wonder if it was worth it, doubly so if the 5 goblins just stab them and the big bad doesn't miss a beat. If the players are making a point of ending fights with a signature spell or combo they become known for it, and people will take it into account.

[Qwertystop]

I haven't got the books, but from what's written here it sounds like there's no discrepancy between "obey verbal commands" and "NPCs run by the DM". The magic makes them do what you tell them to, but there's a limit on how much you can say in a round while doing your own thing. If you summon pixies to do something they wouldn't want to do (the bunny example comes to mind), expect them to obey you to the letter only.

Not sure how much it helps, but it's something.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Right, but Eslin's point is that the "If it says the DM has the statistics, the DM must be the one controlling the creatures" ruling is one that has pretty far-reaching consequences for conjurers generally, and it'd be a big enough break from tradition to merit being specifically called out if the designers really intended it to be read that way.
That's not what I said. The point is that DMs have plenty of justification for messing with the spell if they think it needs to be brought into line. There are RAW, lore, and balance rationales. Fey creatures are notoriously willful and powerful.


Personally, I'm of the belief that a bunch of low-powered sleep and polymorph rolls will probably not be as useful as they might seem when casters start getting access to the spell, and if they are, well, so the Druid/Ranger/Whatever gets a cool thing to do in combat. It's not exactly hard to keep it from overpowering your game.

I agree that Pixie-spam is less powerful than it seems at first glance. However, it's still powerful enough to be concerning - mostly because if you roll enough attacks against a defense you'll get through. Pixies arn't even the only creature in Conjure Woodland Creatures of concern- Sprites are also CR 1/4 and have a poison shortbow that is brutal against anything with a low or impaired CON save.

[DanyBallon]

Maybe the GM can argue that giving an order to the pixie takes an action, as a beastmaster ranger need to spend an action to order is animal companion, this will limit the number of pixies you can boss around. I think it could be a reasonable fix.

[silveralen]

It's not just summoning. That exact same wording applies to a huge number of spells - if you can't choose what you summon, you can't choose what you polymorph into.

Not polymorph. Nor fabricate. The conjure spells have a specific line not present elsewhere


The DM has the creature's statistics

You may think that line means nothing, but what's interesting is that, logically, the DM would have the polymorphed or true polymorphed statistics, yet such a line doesn't appear in those spells. So, most people logically assume that the DM determines what specifically appears, given that final line, but not what polymorph turns into, due to the DM never even being mentioned in that spell. That's the difference. The wording is not identical, please do not spread misinformation.

[Shining Wrath]

Not polymorph. Nor fabricate. The conjure spells have a specific line not present elsewhere



You may think that line means nothing, but what's interesting is that, logically, the DM would have the polymorphed or true polymorphed statistics, yet such a line doesn't appear in those spells. So, most people logically assume that the DM determines what specifically appears, given that final line, but not what polymorph turns into, due to the DM never even being mentioned in that spell. That's the difference. The wording is not identical, please do not spread misinformation.

The conjure spells also supply criteria limiting what may be summoned, such as creature type, that is not present in a polymorph spell. That doesn't mean the summoned creatures are different from other creatures of the same type.

[silveralen]

The conjure spells also supply criteria limiting what may be summoned, such as creature type, that is not present in a polymorph spell. That doesn't mean the summoned creatures are different from other creatures of the same type.

Uh.... polymorph is limited to only beasts. Also, no real clue what you are saying, one set of spells specifically calls out the DM having final control of the creature's statistics when it arrives.

[Tvtyrant]

Just say that the Pixie's cannot concentrate on spells since they are so flighty, but are otherwise under your control.

[SharkForce]

I have an alternate suggestion:

maybe, just maybe, the problem is that there is a CR 1/4 creature that can cast level 4 spells at all. the fact that it is a creature that can easily be summoned en masse exacerbates the problem, but ultimately, the problem is the creature, not the spell that summons them. if WotC published a book with a beast that was CR 1/4, had 400 HP, and could multiattack for 4 attacks that each deal 2d10+10 with a paralysis poison attached, an attack bonus of +10, and AC/saves that would make a CR 10 creature jealous, would you look at that and say "oh, it's time to fix the spells that can summon beasts or transform people into beasts of a specific CR", or would you perhaps say "oh, that creature probably needs some errata"?

the problem is not the spell. the problem is the creature. I can call up 8 CR 1/4 animals with a conjure spell and everyone can general agree that it's good, but not broken. I can do the same with elementals, or celestials, or fiends, or heck, I could even create a spell that does the same with just about any creature type, and the general response would likely be "oh, that's a pretty nice spell, but not a broken one".

and then we get to the one that lets you summon fey, and suddenly, *bam*, it's broken if you let someone call pixies.

the proper solution is not to ask WotC to make up a rule designed to limit the abuse of creatures that need to be redone. the solution is to ask WotC to redo the creatures that need to be redone, because who wants to be fighting creatures that can cast confusion and polymorph when you're level 1? for that matter, who thinks it's a good idea that at level 1, if you happen to make friends with the right group of fey, they can turn each member of the party into a CR 1 beast with better attack options and much more HP than they have in their normal form?

if you "fix" the spell, you only fix one possible avenue of abuse but you leave the creature in a place where it can still cause problems. how about, instead, fixing the creature, and then you can safely use it in a game without causing problems whether it is summoned or encountered randomly, and whether it is friend or foe to the PCs?

[7heprofessor]

I'm sorry, but this exact tactic has been used in one of my games and I did not find it difficult to manage in the least. I'm not sure where the issue is at your table, but at mine four of the Pixies were dead before they even got a turn, the other four targetted two of the enemies with Polymorph, one of which saved both times. The Bandit Captain then hit the Druid once and she lost concentration, eliminating the remaining four Pixies.

In the end, it was a 4th level spell that took one NPC out of the fight and distracted the other three for one round. That is a very solid 4th level spell...but nothing broken and DEFINITELY doesn't need any convoluted houseruling.

If you're having any trouble with encounter design that challenges your PCs, feel free to PM me and I'll lend what advice I can.

[Talakeal]

I personally have a rule that summoned creatures draw from the summoner's spell slots rather than their own. They can still cast spells that arent available to the caster, but doong so uses up one of te same level spell slots that the summoner can cast.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm sorry, but this exact tactic has been used in one of my games and I did not find it difficult to manage in the least. I'm not sure where the issue is at your table, but at mine four of the Pixies were dead before they even got a turn, the other four targetted two of the enemies with Polymorph, one of which saved both times. The Bandit Captain then hit the Druid once and she lost concentration, eliminating the remaining four Pixies.

In the end, it was a 4th level spell that took one NPC out of the fight and distracted the other three for one round. That is a very solid 4th level spell...but nothing broken and DEFINITELY doesn't need any convoluted houseruling.

If you're having any trouble with encounter design that challenges your PCs, feel free to PM me and I'll lend what advice I can.

Sounds like the Pixies didn't act on the turn they were summoned - as I read the spell, they act as soon as they appear, on the druid's turn. Otherwise there's no way to take them out before they act. It also sounds as though they appeared visible, even though IIRC Pixies have at-will invisibility and there's no reason why they should respond to a summons into combat visible. Which wouldn't matter except for the first part about not acting in the round they are summoned.

[Fwiffo86]

Pixies have at-will invisibility and there's no reason why they should respond to a summons into combat visible. Which wouldn't matter except for the first part about not acting in the round they are summoned.

Doesn't this statement (bolded) presuppose that the pixies are asked to arrive? I always figured they are yanked from where ever they happen to be at the time of casting.

[Alucard2099]

Why is this an issue? The Pixie Polymorph ability only allows them to polymorph into something with the same CR... IE 1/4...

[Vogonjeltz]

Right, but Eslin's point is that the "If it says the DM has the statistics, the DM must be the one controlling the creatures" ruling is one that has pretty far-reaching consequences for conjurers generally, and it'd be a big enough break from tradition to merit being specifically called out if the designers really intended it to be read that way.

Personally, I'm of the belief that a bunch of low-powered sleep and polymorph rolls will probably not be as useful as they might seem when casters start getting access to the spell, and if they are, well, so the Druid/Ranger/Whatever gets a cool thing to do in combat. It's not exactly hard to keep it from overpowering your game.

Yes, but there it is.

"Choose one of the following options for what appears:

* One fey creature of challenge" (etc...)

That's as plain as can be. The Player only chooses one of the options, the DM decides what appears that is consistent with those options. The player can not choose pixies specifically, period.

Secondly, the fey obey verbal commands and do nothing if not commanded. So in the strictest possible sense, they aren't controlled by the caster, only commanded. How they carry out those commands is entirely up to the DM (as it should be).

[Easy_Lee]

Who says that the caster can control exactly what they summon when casting conjure woodland beings? I'd roll randomly from woodland beings who might be in the area.

[Eslin]

Why is this an issue? The Pixie Polymorph ability only allows them to polymorph into something with the same CR... IE 1/4...

Making it a fantastic offensive option. Turn everything you're fighting into sloths.

[Alucard2099]

Making it a fantastic offensive option. Turn everything you're fighting into sloths.
Only if they fail their saves of coarse.

[Easy_Lee]

Only if they fail their saves of coarse.

The DC is 12 if memory serves. Assuming +9 to the save is considered high for the level, that's an 85% chance to succeed on each save. The chance of making eight of those in a row is only 27%.

On the other hand, fly has no DC. Eight pixies can give your whole party flight and then some.

In short, eight pixie minions is broken, which is why you don't let players automatically get all pixies when they cast CWB.

[Envyus]

The Pixes also die super hard due to have no HP or AC.

[Fwiffo86]

The DC is 12 if memory serves. Assuming +9 to the save is considered high for the level, that's an 85% chance to succeed on each save. The chance of making eight of those in a row is only 27%.

On the other hand, fly has no DC. Eight pixies can give your whole party flight and then some.

In short, eight pixie minions is broken, which is why you don't let players automatically get all pixies when they cast CWB.

And damage abound as the entire party crashes into the ground from the loss of the flight spell due to a single hit on the caster that summoned the pixies. I am totally doing this to someone.

[Easy_Lee]

And damage abound as the entire party crashes into the ground from the loss of the flight spell due to a single hit on the caster that summoned the pixies. I am totally doing this to someone.

Just shove him in a bag of holding if you're that worried about it. Though you have heard of the warcaster feat and resilient: Con, right?

[Falling Icicle]

maybe, just maybe, the problem is that there is a CR 1/4 creature that can cast level 4 spells at all. the fact that it is a creature that can easily be summoned en masse exacerbates the problem, but ultimately, the problem is the creature, not the spell that summons them.

I was going to say the exact same thing.

[Ent]

PC choses CR option and issues commands. DM chooses creatures and controls Conjures in 5e (they are NPCs).

[Eslin]

PC choses CR option and issues commands. DM chooses creatures and controls Conjures in 5e (they are NPCs).

Where does it say the DM chooses creatures? The DM has the creature's statistics, true, but that's true of every conjuration spell and none of them specify the choice any more than, say, fabricate does. Every other spell lets you choose what happens, why on earth would this be the one spell decided by the DM? And if not specifying who chooses things means the DM, does that mean a spell like finger of death 'a creature you can see' which doesn't specify that you choose which target has the target picked by the DM? No, of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

[Ent]

And if not specifying who chooses things means the DM, does that mean a spell like finger of death 'a creature you can see' which doesn't specify that you choose which target has the target picked by the DM? No, of course not, because that would be ridiculous.

I was starting to agree with you but FoD is not a good example. I don't think either way is clear.

Look at Conjure Elemental where you choose element (kinda, situational) vs. Conjure Minor Elementals where you don't.

[7heprofessor]

Sounds like the Pixies didn't act on the turn they were summoned - as I read the spell, they act as soon as they appear, on the druid's turn. Otherwise there's no way to take them out before they act. It also sounds as though they appeared visible, even though IIRC Pixies have at-will invisibility and there's no reason why they should respond to a summons into combat visible. Which wouldn't matter except for the first part about not acting in the round they are summoned.

Then any issues you have with this spell are by your own design. First, the spell specifically states:

"Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which have their own turns."

This means they do not act until the next round on the initiative you just rolled for them. It has to be this way, because the alternative interpretation creates a potential impossibility. That is, if the initiative result is higher than that of the Druid who summoned them, their initiative has already passed making it impossible for them to take actions this turn.

Sure, if the initiative result happens to be lower than that of the Druid, you could argue that the summoned creatures can act on that initiative, but this system has been designed with simplicity in mind, and allowing this situation is anything but simple. Ergo, the interpretation that does NOT allow for a potential impossibility is the correct interpretation (not allowing the summoned creatures to act in the round they are summoned in if they have to roll initiative).

Second, you are making an assumption that the Pixies will have spent an action to make themselves Invisible prior to being summoned. Nowhere is it stated that summoned creatures know they're being summoned, nor does it state that they can take any actions prior to being summoned. You have created this assumption and have made your game more difficult to manage because of it. Do with it as you see fit, but I would most certainly not allow free actions in a system that is driven by action economy.

Either way...just my 2 cp

[hawklost]

Then any issues you have with this spell are by your own design. First, the spell specifically states:

"Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which have their own turns."

This means they do not act until the next round on the initiative you just rolled for them. It has to be this way, because the alternative interpretation creates a potential impossibility. That is, if the initiative result is higher than that of the Druid who summoned them, their initiative has already passed making it impossible for them to take actions this turn.

Sure, if the initiative result happens to be lower than that of the Druid, you could argue that the summoned creatures can act on that initiative, but this system has been designed with simplicity in mind, and allowing this situation is anything but simple. Ergo, the interpretation that does NOT allow for a potential impossibility is the correct interpretation (not allowing the summoned creatures to act in the round they are summoned in if they have to roll initiative).

Second, you are making an assumption that the Pixies will have spent an action to make themselves Invisible prior to being summoned. Nowhere is it stated that summoned creatures know they're being summoned, nor does it state that they can take any actions prior to being summoned. You have created this assumption and have made your game more difficult to manage because of it. Do with it as you see fit, but I would most certainly not allow free actions in a system that is driven by action economy.

Either way...just my 2 cp

I have to disagree with you on the Initiative thing. My interpretation is 'Roll die, add to initiative order right now'. Yes, that means that if the summoned creature rolls low, they go after the Druid on that initiative order and if they roll high, they go before the druid on the next order. If you do it the way you describe, it is fully possible for 2 whole rounds effectively before the Summons go (Example, Druid is first on Round, summons, pixies roll 1 and go last, now everyone goes and then everyone goes again before pixies go - In my opinion this is not correct).

As for making assumptions that the Pixies are doing stuff before hand, I would personally allow some of them to be invisible and some to not, but I would also have a random chance that they used each of their other spells that day too. Since you don't get to choose to only get ones that are at full power. (I like to believe that the dnd worlds actually run whether or not PCs are present so NPCs don't always have every spell and/or power when the PCs run into them randomly)

[7heprofessor]

I have to disagree with you on the Initiative thing. My interpretation is 'Roll die, add to initiative order right now'. Yes, that means that if the summoned creature rolls low, they go after the Druid on that initiative order and if they roll high, they go before the druid on the next order. If you do it the way you describe, it is fully possible for 2 whole rounds effectively before the Summons go (Example, Druid is first on Round, summons, pixies roll 1 and go last, now everyone goes and then everyone goes again before pixies go - In my opinion this is not correct).

As for making assumptions that the Pixies are doing stuff before hand, I would personally allow some of them to be invisible and some to not, but I would also have a random chance that they used each of their other spells that day too. Since you don't get to choose to only get ones that are at full power. (I like to believe that the dnd worlds actually run whether or not PCs are present so NPCs don't always have every spell and/or power when the PCs run into them randomly)

Yes, by my interpretation, it's entirely possible for everyone but the Pixies to act for nearly two full rounds if they have the misfortune of rolling a '1' on initiative. I don't see this as a problem in the least, and believe it balances all summoning spells that dictate initiative must be rolled for the characters.

How do you handle a situation where a combat is occurring with one of the PCs absent. Then, the absent PC Teleports onto the battlefield. Do you allow them to roll initiative and act on it if it in the same round if that initiative count hasn't occurred yet? That is far too generous for my game.

As for summoned creatures not having all of their abilities, you're free to houserule as you see fit, but there is nothing in the rules that dictates they don't have their abilities, nor that they can activate them for free prior to being summoned. I think it's really cool and flavorful, and it makes a lot of sense, but it makes me have to roll a bunch of dice to randomly determine something that isn't even really a problem in the first place.

Neat, but not something I would put a hard-and-fast houserule in place for.

[Fwiffo86]

Just shove him in a bag of holding if you're that worried about it. Though you have heard of the warcaster feat and resilient: Con, right?

We don't play with feats. Also, tone.

[Eslin]

We don't play with feats.

Why on earth not?

[Easy_Lee]

We don't play with feats.

Then you run an odd game and I feel bad for your fighters and rogues. For everyone else who isn't in an odd game without feats, warcaster lessens the threat of failing concentration, and adding resilient Con further reduces the likelihood to near-0.

[Fwiffo86]

Why on earth not?

Try it. You may find that the game is amazingly balanced when you aren't adding the mishmash of feats to the mix.

Of course, you may find that to not be true.



Then you run an odd game and I feel bad for your fighters and rogues. For everyone else who isn't in an odd game without feats, warcaster lessens the threat of failing concentration, and adding resilient Con further reduces the likelihood to near-0.


You perceive the concentration check as a weakness. I disagree.

[GiantOctopodes]

Why is this an issue? The Pixie Polymorph ability only allows them to polymorph into something with the same CR... IE 1/4...
The pixies don't use it on themselves, they use it on others- either the players, or more likely, the monsters to turn them into helpless creatures. Possibly some combination thereof. 8 level 3 spells being gained from a level 4 spellcasting is really what's the issue. And when a monster has to make 8 saves, it becomes statistically likely for it to miss one.


Yes, but there it is.

"Choose one of the following options for what appears:

* One fey creature of challenge" (etc...)

That's as plain as can be. The Player only chooses one of the options, the DM decides what appears that is consistent with those options. The player can not choose pixies specifically, period.

Secondly, the fey obey verbal commands and do nothing if not commanded. So in the strictest possible sense, they aren't controlled by the caster, only commanded. How they carry out those commands is entirely up to the DM (as it should be).

Having the player not in control of the effects of their spells isn't fun. It's also trying to weasel out of doing what the spell description implies.

Everyone trying to nerf summon spells in general or heck, spellcasting in general is fine, but for me, I look at the specific issue (a cr 1/4 creature should not have polymorph) and resolve it (pixies don't have polymorph). Bam. Issue solved- for PCs and NPCs alike, there is now no chance of exploiting that particular spell or creature, as it just doesn't have that ability. It was like Mirror Mephits having Simulacrum once per day in 3E, but being able to be a familiar. Choose this familiar, get an 8th level spell for free? Sounds totally balanced, right? Not so much- so they just didn't have it in my campaigns. No big deal.

[Easy_Lee]

You perceive the concentration check as a weakness. I disagree.

What do you mean? I perceive the threat of losing concentration as something casters should consider and defend against when able. Are you saying I'm wrong, or are you saying that you think I think concentration is a bad mechanic?

Regardless, I don't know what this has to do with pixies. But I think we're all agreed that players shouldn't be able to summon eight of them so easily.

[Fwiffo86]

What do you mean? I perceive the threat of losing concentration as something casters should consider and defend against when able.

I am saying the concentration check is exactly what it is, a balance mechanic against being able to solve any problem with a spell.



Are you saying I'm wrong, or are you saying that you think I think concentration is a bad mechanic?

I am saying nothing of the sort. Are you trying to start an argument?

[Easy_Lee]

I am saying nothing of the sort. Are you trying to start an argument?


You perceive the concentration check as a weakness. I disagree.

Sounds like you putting words in my mouth, and I was wondering what you meant by the above. I know why WoTC added concentration.

[Fwiffo86]

Are you saying I'm wrong, or are you saying that you think I think concentration is a bad mechanic?

I took this as adversarial. No words have been put in your mouth to my knowledge. I was responding, and hopefully abating what I perceived as an attempt to start an argument.

[7heprofessor]

The pixies don't use it on themselves, they use it on others- either the players, or more likely, the monsters to turn them into helpless creatures. Possibly some combination thereof. 8 level 3 spells being gained from a level 4 spellcasting is really what's the issue. And when a monster has to make 8 saves, it becomes statistically likely for it to miss one.

Having the player not in control of the effects of their spells isn't fun. It's also trying to weasel out of doing what the spell description implies.

Everyone trying to nerf summon spells in general or heck, spellcasting in general is fine, but for me, I look at the specific issue (a cr 1/4 creature should not have polymorph) and resolve it (pixies don't have polymorph). Bam. Issue solved- for PCs and NPCs alike, there is now no chance of exploiting that particular spell or creature, as it just doesn't have that ability. It was like Mirror Mephits having Simulacrum once per day in 3E, but being able to be a familiar. Choose this familiar, get an 8th level spell for free? Sounds totally balanced, right? Not so much- so they just didn't have it in my campaigns. No big deal.

Naturally, you are free to houserule as you see fit, but I personally find your justifications lacking. Simply stating, "a CR 1/4 creature should not have Polymorph" is a baseless claim.

WHY shouldn't a CR 1/4 creature have Polymorph? Why is 8 level 3 spells being gained from a 4th level spell an issue?

If you think it's unbalanced, consider that any ability in the game can be unbalanced in one situation or another. I don't see any reason to rob Pixies of this super-fun ability that allows for incredibly hilarious situations to occur in-game, out of some fear of it possibly being used in an unbalanced fashion. It's honestly not an issue at all in my games, and I welcome unique, diverse abilities to be available on interesting creatures.

[hawklost]

Yes, by my interpretation, it's entirely possible for everyone but the Pixies to act for nearly two full rounds if they have the misfortune of rolling a '1' on initiative. I don't see this as a problem in the least, and believe it balances all summoning spells that dictate initiative must be rolled for the characters.

How do you handle a situation where a combat is occurring with one of the PCs absent. Then, the absent PC Teleports onto the battlefield. Do you allow them to roll initiative and act on it if it in the same round if that initiative count hasn't occurred yet? That is far too generous for my game.

As for summoned creatures not having all of their abilities, you're free to houserule as you see fit, but there is nothing in the rules that dictates they don't have their abilities, nor that they can activate them for free prior to being summoned. I think it's really cool and flavorful, and it makes a lot of sense, but it makes me have to roll a bunch of dice to randomly determine something that isn't even really a problem in the first place.

Neat, but not something I would put a hard-and-fast houserule in place for.

I handle a situation where anything that enters into combat (including PCs) rolls initiative and goes then. There are possibilities that if something enters into the combat unknowingly (Say, someone walks around the corner during a somehow silent fight, or someone falls down an unexpected trap into a fight) that they will be surprised during the 'first' round of combat, but I always have them roll and place them in there. If they knowing enter the fight, they enter in wherever they rolls (So if a person walks into a fight they are hearing, they roll and go on that initiative round)

I see Initiative not as Rounds of combat and more as a flowing circle. There really is no beginning and no end (In fact, if PCs and NPCs are facing off against each other and posturing, I will wait until someone decides to attack (either PC or NPC) and then have everyone roll initiative, then I will start the 'Round' with the first person who said they acted, not at the 'top' (Just feels to make more sense then, I attack him.... ok, you rolled low, so they will get to attack you first)

As for the RAW, there is nothing in the RAW saying summoned creatures come in at full power either. so it is neither right nor wrong with my interpretation of it.

[Kornaki]

I see Initiative not as Rounds of combat and more as a flowing circle. There really is no beginning and no end (In fact, if PCs and NPCs are facing off against each other and posturing, I will wait until someone decides to attack (either PC or NPC) and then have everyone roll initiative, then I will start the 'Round' with the first person who said they acted, not at the 'top' (Just feels to make more sense then, I attack him.... ok, you rolled low, so they will get to attack you first)

As a player I would have problems with this system. Let's say we have A and B facing off against C and D. C and D have invested tons into their initiative bonus, and each have a +18. A and B haven't, and each have a +0. After much shouting, A attacks C. They roll initiative, and after bonuses they end up getting:

A: 13
B: 2
C: 28
D: 27.

Fine, A can go first because he said he's attacking, but I bet C and D feel pretty stupid for not having a +0 initiative bonus, don't they?

[Qwertystop]

As a player I would have problems with this system. Let's say we have A and B facing off against C and D. C and D have invested tons into their initiative bonus, and each have a +18. A and B haven't, and each have a +0. After much shouting, A attacks C. They roll initiative, and after bonuses they end up getting:

A: 13
B: 2
C: 28
D: 27.

Fine, A can go first because he said he's attacking, but I bet C and D feel pretty stupid for not having a +0 initiative bonus, don't they?

Does 5e have an equivalent to surprise rounds? Give the person who attacks a surprise round, or maybe a limited amount of actions if that works (let A move into range before initiative starts rolling, but the C and D will have a chance to act before A gets a chance to attack).

(this is from a perspective of not actually knowing much of 5e beyond what I've picked up reading threads here)

[hawklost]

As a player I would have problems with this system. Let's say we have A and B facing off against C and D. C and D have invested tons into their initiative bonus, and each have a +18. A and B haven't, and each have a +0. After much shouting, A attacks C. They roll initiative, and after bonuses they end up getting:

A: 13
B: 2
C: 28
D: 27.

Fine, A can go first because he said he's attacking, but I bet C and D feel pretty stupid for not having a +0 initiative bonus, don't they?

We will ignore the fact that a +18 initiative is impossible with 5e and go with a +11 vs +0 (Remember bounding works for both areas, so unless C and D have impossible Dex and the Feat and some other random bonuses, even a +11 is unexpected)

I would say that C and D feel stupid for not having attacked first in my opinion. They effectively were surprised by the other person increase in aggressiveness.

You could see it in a different way too, which works exactly the same.

lets use your A B C D with their initiative

Round 1
C - I insult the other person
D - I threaten the other person
A - I insult back
B - I stand there staring into space

Round 2
C - I shake my sword at them
D - I throw more threats at them
A - I Swing my sword at C to strike him
B - Oh, we have started, I shoot at C too

C - "Wait, I should have gone first!"
DM - You did, you and D were just throwing insults at the people, not attacking during your initiative until A came around and decided to attack

Does that way make more sense to you?

[7heprofessor]

I would say that C and D feel stupid for not having attacked first in my opinion. They effectively were surprised by the other person increase in aggressiveness.

You could see it in a different way too, which works exactly the same.

lets use your A B C D with their initiative

Round 1
C - I insult the other person
D - I threaten the other person
A - I insult back
B - I stand there staring into space

Round 2
C - I shake my sword at them
D - I throw more threats at them
A - I Swing my sword at C to strike him
B - Oh, we have started, I shoot at C too

C - "Wait, I should have gone first!"
DM - You did, you and D were just throwing insults at the people, not attacking during your initiative until A came around and decided to attack

Does that way make more sense to you?

But that's not how Surprise works in 5E. If A and B are shouting at C and D, neither side is trying to be stealthy, so they all notice each other and cannot be Surprised (PhB pg. 189). Your DM may rule that such a situation could generate surprise, but that is Rule 0, not the assumption.

As for initiative, the Rules state that you roll initiative "When combat starts" and then:

"The DM ranks the combatants in order from the one with the highest Dexterity check total to the one with the lowest. This is the order in which they act during each round. The initiative order remains the same from round to round."

Obviously, CWB dictates that the Pixies roll initiative when they are summoned, so that breaks the "when combat starts" section of the rule. However, the DM then ranks them in order.

This is where Kornaki's concerns can be echoed, and rightfully so. If I summon a creature with a high initiative modifier (generally seen as a good thing), it is more likely to not be able to act in the round it is summoned (generally seen as a bad thing) than a creature with a low initiative modifier. Using this interpretation creates a potential disadvantage for those that have invested resources in gaining better reflexes!

I believe it is a much more fair ruling to state that if you are rolling initiative mid-combat, you act in the next round on that initiative.

[7heprofessor]

I handle a situation where anything that enters into combat (including PCs) rolls initiative and goes then. There are possibilities that if something enters into the combat unknowingly (Say, someone walks around the corner during a somehow silent fight, or someone falls down an unexpected trap into a fight) that they will be surprised during the 'first' round of combat, but I always have them roll and place them in there. If they knowing enter the fight, they enter in wherever they rolls (So if a person walks into a fight they are hearing, they roll and go on that initiative round)

...

As for the RAW, there is nothing in the RAW saying summoned creatures come in at full power either. so it is neither right nor wrong with my interpretation of it.

So if two people walk into a fight they are hearing and one of them is a super-fast ninja, while the other is a lame, obese dwarf you would have them roll initiative mid-combat and have them act on the initiative result?

You do realize that this is putting everyone with better reflexes at a disadvantage to those with poor reflexes, right!? If it's mid-round, the dwarf will almost surely get to act, while the lightning-fast ninja's initiative count has already passed....


Your last statement is a common fallacy. There is nothing in the RAW saying that I can't sprout wings and shoot laser beams from my eyes, but I think we both can agree that I can't.

[Shining Wrath]

I concede that conjured creatures roll initiative. Since it is not stated otherwise, that means that when their initiative roll is reached in the cycle, they act. Depending on where the Druid is in the cycle, they may act next, or they may in the worst case be immediately before the Druid and have to wait nearly a full round. If the Druid is at position 10, pixies that roll a 9 go next, and pixies that roll an 11 wait for everyone except the Druid to go.

Polymorph is a fourth level spell, as is Confuse. If pixies were PCs, they wouldn't have enough charisma to cast 4th or 3rd level magic anyway; their casting ability is 12. Specific trumps general, though, so their 1/day abilities survive. It does point to the imbalance of such minor (CR 1/8) creatures with major magic.

I suppose the question about the visibility of the pixies is answered according to what you think the usual state of a pixie is prior to being summoned. Since the Feywild is a somewhat dangerous place, I'd think there's at least some chance of a pixie being invisible when conjured. This is clearly a rulings not rules situation so YMMV but I think giving pixies a 50-50 chance on visibility is fair. There's no reason to believe that pixies are turned visible when conjured, nor turned invisible, so they come as they were when the spell hit them.

[RealCheese]

Polymorph is a fourth level spell, as is Confuse. If pixies were PCs, they wouldn't have enough charisma to cast 4th or 3rd level magic anyway; their casting ability is 12.

Keep your 3rd edition rules out of my 5th discussion please :p

[hawklost]

So if two people walk into a fight they are hearing and one of them is a super-fast ninja, while the other is a lame, obese dwarf you would have them roll initiative mid-combat and have them act on the initiative result?

You do realize that this is putting everyone with better reflexes at a disadvantage to those with poor reflexes, right!? If it's mid-round, the dwarf will almost surely get to act, while the lightning-fast ninja's initiative count has already passed....


And by your logic, you are having people enter effectively be surprised no matter what. Since you don't let them act on the round they entered combat on. The simplist Solution for the entire debate on how I think it should be and how you demand it to be is to just say that nothing enters combat during the round. So you summon a creature, it does not appear and enter combat until the start of the next round, you have someone enter, they don't appear until the next round. The problem is solved for your demands then. Course, since neither way is shown in the rules, they are both fully valid.



Your last statement is a common fallacy. There is nothing in the RAW saying that I can't sprout wings and shoot laser beams from my eyes, but I think we both can agree that I can't.

Nope, absolutely nothing in RAW that says you cannot do this. Fully ligit thing to do when your DM agrees to it. See, if the DM says, "Sure, you sprout wings and shoot laser beams from your eyes" Then you can do it, if they say no, then you cannot.

Also, Eldritch Blast and Dragon Sorceror (Get blast from Magic Initiate Feat or Spell Sniper Feat). you can Sprout Wings and shoot effectively laser beams (EB Never says where they come from so eyes work as long as you still have all the component used)

[unwise]

My players always dread getting Pixies. They stick around after they are summoned if they think it is interesting enough. They take vengeance on the mean PCs that summoned their kin to their deaths. Sometimes you summon 8, but 24 show up 16 of which are uncontrolled, because they just came along for the ride and want to see what is going on. Sometimes they Pixies are just copies of real Pixies, but still, the real fey find that really interesting and come over for a look.

[7heprofessor]

And by your logic, you are having people enter effectively be surprised no matter what. Since you don't let them act on the round they entered combat on. The simplist Solution for the entire debate on how I think it should be and how you demand it to be is to just say that nothing enters combat during the round. So you summon a creature, it does not appear and enter combat until the start of the next round, you have someone enter, they don't appear until the next round. The problem is solved for your demands then. Course, since neither way is shown in the rules, they are both fully valid.

I'll concede that the simplest ruling would be to have the lame, obese dwarf act on his low initiative later in the round, and the ninja has to wait until next round. Simple doesn't always make sense, but 5E clearly attempts to err on the side of simple. As a DM, I would adjudicate this situation subjectively in each instance it occurred, and would try to keep things simple so as to not bog down combat. Without concrete rules support, I agree this is up to the DM.




Nope, absolutely nothing in RAW that says you cannot do this. Fully ligit thing to do when your DM agrees to it. See, if the DM says, "Sure, you sprout wings and shoot laser beams from your eyes" Then you can do it, if they say no, then you cannot.

Also, Eldritch Blast and Dragon Sorceror (Get blast from Magic Initiate Feat or Spell Sniper Feat). you can Sprout Wings and shoot effectively laser beams (EB Never says where they come from so eyes work as long as you still have all the component used)

LOL, I may have to play a Warlock/Sorcerer just so I can do this! :)

[DanyBallon]

As for the initiative concern, the way it goes in my game is that if a creatures comes into play during an ongoing round of initiative, they happen to go next and keep that initiative order for the whole combat. If they need to roll initiative, then they have to wait on their initiative roll on the next round. Being surprised or not is up to the DM. Abilities that affects creatures that haven't act yet, still applies. So in the case a player summons a creature, it's up to him to decide if the creature go right after him, or on its own initiative count next round. Creatures summoned by NPCs or monsters usually go right after their summoning. Creatures attracted into the fight usually go at the initiative count where the showed up.

[Shining Wrath]

I'll concede that the simplest ruling would be to have the lame, obese dwarf act on his low initiative later in the round, and the ninja has to wait until next round. Simple doesn't always make sense, but 5E clearly attempts to err on the side of simple. As a DM, I would adjudicate this situation subjectively in each instance it occurred, and would try to keep things simple so as to not bog down combat. Without concrete rules support, I agree this is up to the DM.





LOL, I may have to play a Warlock/Sorcerer just so I can do this! :)

I think someone joining combat is different than something conjured. I think you should add reinforcements in between rounds, and have them roll initiative. If there's a ninja and a dwarf in the same room but 60' away, have them roll initiative at the start of combat. If the ninja and dwarf are in the next room, opening a door to enter a combat is probably an action for one of them, but you should have them roll initiative as well.

It's when they have to run for several rounds that you'd add them to the combat and have them roll initiative when they arrive. And at that point, the simplest thing is to assume they arrive at the start of a new round and roll initiative. Adding them in the middle of a round poses not only the "dwarf goes before ninja" problem, but also means that if the dwarf and / or ninja should be priority targets for the other side, everyone who has already acted before they arrive doesn't get a shot at them this round. And saying "No, I know it took 22 seconds for them to run this far, not 24" is pretty silly.

[SharkForce]

Naturally, you are free to houserule as you see fit, but I personally find your justifications lacking. Simply stating, "a CR 1/4 creature should not have Polymorph" is a baseless claim.

WHY shouldn't a CR 1/4 creature have Polymorph? Why is 8 level 3 spells being gained from a 4th level spell an issue?

If you think it's unbalanced, consider that any ability in the game can be unbalanced in one situation or another. I don't see any reason to rob Pixies of this super-fun ability that allows for incredibly hilarious situations to occur in-game, out of some fear of it possibly being used in an unbalanced fashion. It's honestly not an issue at all in my games, and I welcome unique, diverse abilities to be available on interesting creatures.

a CR 1/4 creature shouldn't have level 4 spells because those make them an inappropriate challenge compared to their CR.

that's the whole point of CR. to help you gauge how difficult an encounter will be. high level spells are generally high level for a reason; they have more powerful effects, the resources used to cause the effect needs to be higher to keep it in control, and it can typically be expected to be used at a time where creatures may actually have a chance to do something about it.


if pixies must specifically keep polymorph (and confusion, and their other spells), then they shouldn't be CR 1/4. if they must remain CR 1/4, they shouldn't keep polymorph (but could potentially gain another ability which is similar, but not as strong). as is, they are a problem any time they are encountered, not merely when they are summoned; the fact that they can be summoned kinda shoves them into the limelight as far as potential to cause problems is concerned, but it is not the cause of the problem, it merely makes the problem extremely visible because it's quite likely to come up.

[Kornaki]

I would say that C and D feel stupid for not having attacked first in my opinion. They effectively were surprised by the other person increase in aggressiveness.

Even in that situation, let's say C declares an attack, gets a 26 initiative, D gets a 27, and A and B get a 2. Are you going to say D feels stupid for not declaring his attack before C? Isn't the whole point of initiative to find out who gets to declare their attack?


Round 1
C - I insult the other person
D - I threaten the other person
A - I insult back
B - I stand there staring into space

Round 2
C - I shake my sword at them
D - I throw more threats at them
A - I Swing my sword at C to strike him
B - Oh, we have started, I shoot at C too

C - "Wait, I should have gone first!"
DM - You did, you and D were just throwing insults at the people, not attacking during your initiative until A came around and decided to attack

Does that way make more sense to you?

I bet your players don't get into a lot of conversations :smallconfused: Did you have the players roll initiative before Round 1 in your example? If so, then fine whatever (I would still dislike the rule as is), if not then you're just retconning the previous actions after initiative is rolled.


Anyway, I just noticed:


Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns.

Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which have their own turns

Let's nitpick what the difference in wording means. Also, can I choose to summon two different kinds of beasts with different initiative modifiers, and if so, do they all still act as a group (and if so, when?)

[7heprofessor]

a CR 1/4 creature shouldn't have level 4 spells because those make them an inappropriate challenge compared to their CR.

that's the whole point of CR. to help you gauge how difficult an encounter will be. high level spells are generally high level for a reason; they have more powerful effects, the resources used to cause the effect needs to be higher to keep it in control, and it can typically be expected to be used at a time where creatures may actually have a chance to do something about it.

CR is a guideline, and one that is not used in vacuum. Have you read the entry for Pixie in its entirety? It speaks to their abhorrence of violence, their curious, but shy nature, and their likelihood to flee should combat occur.

How on earth is a creature like that worth anything more than 1/4 CR? They could have Time Stop and Shapechange at will and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to CR in my game. It's all about how something is used by the creature that determines its power. Pixies are just as likely to Polymorph a PC into a cat as they are to put NPCs to Sleep just so they can tie their shoe-laces together!

How does any of this represent a challenge greater than 1/4?

[Icewraith]

Doesn't combat start as soon as one of the players goes for their sword? Once someone or something makes the decision to attack, everyone rolls initiative. If the player making the decision to attack rolls highest, he goes first and draws his weapon and slashes someone.

If he rolls lowest, everyone else in the room reacts faster than him, so by the time he's hauled his weapon out everyone else has THEIR weapons out too and have either declared ready actions or smacked people. Depending on how the initiative roll goes he may be standing in a ring of unfriendly swords or has successfully caught the other side with their (figurative or literal) pants down.

Otherwise you're basically giving people free actions or free "surprise rounds", for lack of a better term, in combat.

[Psikerlord]

It's unnecessary to future proof house rules against theoretical future releases. Conjure Woodland Beings is potentially broken, but it's easier to houserule fix it specifically; i.e. pixies are controlled by the DM and will act in whichever way they think is hilarious rather than according to the whims of the caster.

WOTC is surely aware of the pixie issue... hopefully keeping it in mind for the future.

P.S. A strict reading of Conjure Woodland Beings means that the caster doesn't actually choose *which* creatures appear...just their CR. So a DM can RAW mix Sprites and Blink Dogs into any CR 1/4 casting.

Yeah I think just making the summoned creatures friendly but under DM control fixes the issue reasonably simply. The DM can make them as helpful as needed/persuaded, etc. Their timid/curious nature will be their balancing factor. The spell is clearly broken at the moment if the caster can simply order the pixies to cast all their spells precisely when he wants them. A free 8 polymorphs is very OP, you could effectively take out the whole battle field with just that.

[7heprofessor]

Doesn't combat start as soon as one of the players goes for their sword? Once someone or something makes the decision to attack, everyone rolls initiative. If the player making the decision to attack rolls highest, he goes first and draws his weapon and slashes someone.

If he rolls lowest, everyone else in the room reacts faster than him, so by the time he's hauled his weapon out everyone else has THEIR weapons out too and have either declared ready actions or smacked people. Depending on how the initiative roll goes he may be standing in a ring of unfriendly swords or has successfully caught the other side with their (figurative or literal) pants down.

Otherwise you're basically giving people free actions or free "surprise rounds", for lack of a better term, in combat.

Sure, but you fail to address the issue with combatant entering once combat has already began.

[Shining Wrath]

CR is a guideline, and one that is not used in vacuum. Have you read the entry for Pixie in its entirety? It speaks to their abhorrence of violence, their curious, but shy nature, and their likelihood to flee should combat occur.

How on earth is a creature like that worth anything more than 1/4 CR? They could have Time Stop and Shapechange at will and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to CR in my game. It's all about how something is used by the creature that determines its power. Pixies are just as likely to Polymorph a PC into a cat as they are to put NPCs to Sleep just so they can tie their shoe-laces together!

How does any of this represent a challenge greater than 1/4?

Because the language of CWB says the Pixies (or whatever you conjure) WILL obey verbal commands. So the Pixie's abhorrence of violence is overruled as the bloodthirsty murder hobo orders them about.

[7heprofessor]

Because the language of CWB says the Pixies (or whatever you conjure) WILL obey verbal commands. So the Pixie's abhorrence of violence is overruled as the bloodthirsty murder hobo orders them about.

Then the issue is not with the Pixie's abilities, but with the spell allowing you complete control over the creature's abilities. You would rob the Pixie of its awesomeness because of one spell?

One could argue that this issue is already solved by the "The DM has the creature's statistics" clause. But that is, admittedly, not a very sound argument.

Generally, I don't support creating house-rules to prevent extremely niche cases like this.

[Shining Wrath]

Then the issue is not with the Pixie's abilities, but with the spell allowing you complete control over the creature's abilities. You would rob the Pixie of its awesomeness because of one spell?

One could argue that this issue is already solved by the "The DM has the creature's statistics" clause. But that is, admittedly, not a very sound argument.

Generally, I don't support creating house-rules to prevent extremely niche cases like this.

Are druids underpowered in your opinion? What about bards?

Giving an already quite capable class the ability to use a 4th level slot and get a dozen or two 4th level spells cast on their behalf seems cheesetastic to me. YMMV, enjoy your table, but this is not a niche spell, and pixies are not a niche woodland being. A druid pulling a bunch of pixies to fight for them seems iconic and flavorful; those pixies representing an overwhelming force, not so much.

And to those who have said "Just fix Pixies", as monster manuals proliferate, so will the number of spell casting fey that can be summoned.

The "Your DM has the statistics..." to me seems unfair; if the DM changes Pixies significantly, then they are house-rule pixies, not D&D 5e pixies. Would you want a Conjured Elemental to have 1/2 the listed HP?

[Gnaeus]

Then you run an odd game and I feel bad for your fighters and rogues. For everyone else who isn't in an odd game without feats, warcaster lessens the threat of failing concentration, and adding resilient Con further reduces the likelihood to near-0.

OK, so we are assuming a druid of at least 8th level. He has 2 specific feats (as opposed to raising his wisdom or taking a feat that helps his wildshape combat or anything else). He uses a high level spell slot, and his concentration. This is then used to create 8 pixies, which can then make 8 low DC will save effects on a target. If the druid, who is now a target, and can't cast good defensive spells because he is maintaining concentration, gets dropped, the spells end. If the pixies lose concentration or die, the spells end. If another enemy stabs the sheep or frog, bringing it to 0 HP, the spell ends. I'm just not seeing the game breakingness here. Its a mid level spell with a reasonably good chance of winning a single encounter, so long as that encounter involves a small number of enemies with bad will saves.

I don't think I would allow a caster to maintain concentration on spells from inside a bag of holding. And even if he can, he can no longer command the pixies, who can now do whatever they feel like.

[Eslin]

Yeah I think just making the summoned creatures friendly but under DM control fixes the issue reasonably simply. The DM can make them as helpful as needed/persuaded, etc. Their timid/curious nature will be their balancing factor. The spell is clearly broken at the moment if the caster can simply order the pixies to cast all their spells precisely when he wants them. A free 8 polymorphs is very OP, you could effectively take out the whole battle field with just that.

'They obey any verbal commands you issue to them'


OK, so we are assuming a druid of at least 8th level. He has 2 specific feats (as opposed to raising his wisdom or taking a feat that helps his wildshape combat or anything else). He uses a high level spell slot, and his concentration. This is then used to create 8 pixies, which can then make 8 low DC will save effects on a target. If the druid, who is now a target, and can't cast good defensive spells because he is maintaining concentration, gets dropped, the spells end. If the pixies lose concentration or die, the spells end. If another enemy stabs the sheep or frog, bringing it to 0 HP, the spell ends. I'm just not seeing the game breakingness here. Its a mid level spell with a reasonably good chance of winning a single encounter, so long as that encounter involves a small number of enemies with bad will saves.

I don't think I would allow a caster to maintain concentration on spells from inside a bag of holding. And even if he can, he can no longer command the pixies, who can now do whatever they feel like.

Pixies can still hear him, and it's not like if they can't they get to ignore their previous command if it's something ongoing.

And warcaster/resilient are the first two feats pretty much any druid takes, the wisdom's less necessary when you can do things like summon pixies everywhere.

[Scarab112]

'They obey any verbal commands you issue to them'

Then what verbal commands do you give them?

"All of you, polymorph that dragon!"

They polymorph it into something that's the same CR as the dragon, meaning you have 2 fights on your hands.

"All of you, polymorph that dragon into a rabbit."

Well, you didn't say what kind of rabbit, so I hope you wanted a giant dire rabbit. Might not be as tough as a dragon, but it's not harmless.

"All of you, polymorph that dragon into a normal rabbit."

Well, they're from wherever fey live, and fey rabbits are pretty normal there. Of course, fey rabbits can also teleport and turn invisible, so good luck finding the thing.


Pixies are Fey. They enjoy screwing people over. The more specific you get, the more restricted they are, but eventually these commands will take more than 1 round to reasonably say.

[Eslin]

Then what verbal commands do you give them?

"All of you, polymorph that dragon!"

They polymorph it into something that's the same CR as the dragon, meaning you have 2 fights on your hands.

"All of you, polymorph that dragon into a rabbit."

Well, you didn't say what kind of rabbit, so I hope you wanted a giant dire rabbit. Might not be as tough as a dragon, but it's not harmless.

"All of you, polymorph that dragon into a normal rabbit."

Well, they're from wherever fey live, and fey rabbits are pretty normal there. Of course, fey rabbits can also teleport and turn invisible, so good luck finding the thing.


Pixies are Fey. They enjoy screwing people over. The more specific you get, the more restricted they are, but eventually these commands will take more than 1 round to reasonably say.

'Each of you attempt to polymorph that dragon into a small goldfish until one of you succeeds, if you succeed maintain concentration until ordered otherwise'

If the players think for a little while they can easily make loophole free instructions, all you're doing is making them do extra work and slowing the game down to arrive at the exact same conclusion as you would have if you weren't trying to overcomplicate things.

For instance: Start every summon off with 'obey all my future orders fully and according to my intentions, do not attempt to twist my words' solves pretty much anything. I notice nobody is trying this with other spells - people keep trying to nerf CWB with weird houserules rather than just disallowing pixies to be summoned.

[Scarab112]

'Each of you attempt to polymorph that dragon into a small goldfish until one of you succeeds, if you succeed maintain concentration until ordered otherwise'



The pixies cast their spells and repeatedly fail, since they were trying to polymorph the dragon into a small fish made of gold, which isn't a creature, so the spell fails. But they attempted it, so it's done.



For instance: Start every summon off with 'obey all my future orders fully and according to my intentions, do not attempt to twist my words' solves pretty much anything.

I tried out saying this as well as the instruction you gave above. Without speaking it so fast that it couldn't be understood, it took a full 7 seconds for each. While talking has usually been a free action, there's some points where the DM is right for complaining if you get too wordy. Depending on how the DM handles time during combat, it will take you 2 rounds for the pixies to do anything. If he's extra strict, you woudln't be able to cast any other verbal spells during that time either.



I notice nobody is trying this with other spells - people keep trying to nerf CWB with weird houserules rather than just disallowing pixies to be summoned.

My personal preference for a houserule would be making the summoned creatures random. It makes it feel more like you're asking nature for help rather than demanding it.

[7heprofessor]

'Each of you attempt to polymorph that dragon into a small goldfish until one of you succeeds, if you succeed maintain concentration until ordered otherwise'

If the players think for a little while they can easily make loophole free instructions, all you're doing is making them do extra work and slowing the game down to arrive at the exact same conclusion as you would have if you weren't trying to overcomplicate things.

For instance: Start every summon off with 'obey all my future orders fully and according to my intentions, do not attempt to twist my words' solves pretty much anything. I notice nobody is trying this with other spells - people keep trying to nerf CWB with weird houserules rather than just disallowing pixies to be summoned.

I find it amusing that you claim others are over-complicating things, yet your "solution" is to craft convoluted, purportedly all-encompasses commands that you'll somehow shout out in combat. Don't get me wrong, I want my players to use their heads and think, but more than that I want them to be heroes....not Lawyers!


Are druids underpowered in your opinion? What about bards?
Giving an already quite capable class the ability to use a 4th level slot and get a dozen or two 4th level spells cast on their behalf seems cheesetastic to me. YMMV, enjoy your table, but this is not a niche spell, and pixies are not a niche woodland being. A druid pulling a bunch of pixies to fight for them seems iconic and flavorful; those pixies representing an overwhelming force, not so much.
And to those who have said "Just fix Pixies", as monster manuals proliferate, so will the number of spell casting fey that can be summoned.
The "Your DM has the statistics..." to me seems unfair; if the DM changes Pixies significantly, then they are house-rule pixies, not D&D 5e pixies. Would you want a Conjured Elemental to have 1/2 the listed HP?

No, I haven't seen a large disparity in any of the classes as of yet, but using one specific spell to summon one specific kind of creature to use one specific ability is basically the definition of niche! It's going to happen so rarely, if ever at all, that I simply can't see what the big deal is. I've re-read most of the thread and can deal with every single instance of "imbalance" with one or more of the following, none of which change any of the rules as presented:


Pixies do not speak Common. One could argue that the caster must be able to speak Sylvan for the Pixies to understand the commands.
The summoned creatures must roll initiative and act on that initiative. One could argue that they cannot act until the following round; most certainly if their initiative count has already passed.
The DM has the creature’s statistics. Personally, I would hand my Player the MM and say, "Have fun." Other DMs are well within their rights (if a little disingenuous) to hand a scrap piece of paper to the player with whatever the hell they want on it.
Pixies are tricky little $4!7s. Scarab112 nicely points out a few options the DM has at her disposal to deal with anything potentially campaign-shattering from 8 little fey.
A very strict reading of the spell does not allow you to select "Pixie" but rather "• Eight fey creatures of challenge rating 1/4 or lower." A DM frightened of losing his precious NPCs to Pixies could select which creatures appear himself. :/
The Save DC for their spell is a paltry 12. Granted, 8 iterations of DC12 can be quite difficult, but it is far from impossible to simply resist.
CWB is a Concentration spell. Hit the Druid and force her to make Concentration checks, or her mini-army goes *poof.*
Fireball. Because Fireball is always an answer.

[Gnaeus]

Pixies can still hear him, and it's not like if they can't they get to ignore their previous command if it's something ongoing.

Fine. Your call as DM. I'm just going to say that as houserules/DM rulings go, "You can't maintain concentration on a spell from another plane of existance or extradimensional space" or "You cannot direct minions while hiding inside a magic bag" seem a lot more reasonable and closer to the rules than "the thing that the game pretty clearly says you can summon can't do the things that the game pretty clearly says they can do". The problem here isn't the pixies, its the caster controlling the combat from the safety of an extraplanar space in a rules grey area.

Honestly, caster in a bag is going to be way more abusive in a much larger set of encounters than just a handful of pixies. The entire point of the concentration mechanic in 5e is that casters can be shut down. If you choose to invalidate that with a tactic as anti-high-fantasy as having gandalf spend all his time in a magic bag while his summons kill stuff thats your call, but the problem has nothing to do with the summons spells.



And warcaster/resilient are the first two feats pretty much any druid takes, the wisdom's less necessary when you can do things like summon pixies everywhere.

I think this is a significant overstatement. I think you will get a decent % of druids who will be circle of the moon and will be focused on combat or utility in animal form. Of caster druids, I do think those will be common, but I think new feats are something that will emerge with splat release, and just because something is the best core option because there are few alternatives does not mean that most caster druids will focus on those two feats years from now when there are more feats available.

But most importantly, people take feats so that they can be good at things. A fighter with X-bow expert or a warlock with agonizing blast and spell sniper should be good at shooting things. Thats why they spent their build resources that way. A druid who spent 2 feats on casting should be good at casting. And sometimes, he should be able to shut down opponents with his casting awesomeness just like sometimes a damage dealer should be able to roll a bunch of dice and lay down a bunch of damage.

[Scarab112]

I find it amusing that you claim others are over-complicating things, yet your "solution" is to craft convoluted, purportedly all-encompasses commands that you'll somehow shout out in combat. Don't get me wrong, I want my players to use their heads and think, but more than that I want them to be heroes....not Lawyers!


That's not my 'solution', that's the requirement if someone insists on trying to use an army of pixies. Summoning 8 of anything that wants to ruin your day is going to ruin your day.

My solution is to just make it random. In that case I might even have the pixies be more helpful. It's only when someone tries to game the system that I feel the need to curtail them.

[Eslin]

The pixies cast their spells and repeatedly fail, since they were trying to polymorph the dragon into a small fish made of gold, which isn't a creature, so the spell fails. But they attempted it, so it's done.
Goldfish, not gold fish. And they have to follow intent.


I tried out saying this as well as the instruction you gave above. Without speaking it so fast that it couldn't be understood, it took a full 7 seconds for each. While talking has usually been a free action, there's some points where the DM is right for complaining if you get too wordy. Depending on how the DM handles time during combat, it will take you 2 rounds for the pixies to do anything. If he's extra strict, you woudln't be able to cast any other verbal spells during that time either.
'No action required by you'. Having it be anything more than a free action is DM houseruling.


My personal preference for a houserule would be making the summoned creatures random. It makes it feel more like you're asking nature for help rather than demanding it. Again if you don't like the pixie part just houserule it, don't randomise things. Random =/= balanced.


That's not my 'solution', that's the requirement if someone insists on trying to use an army of pixies. Summoning 8 of anything that wants to ruin your day is going to ruin your day.

My solution is to just make it random. In that case I might even have the pixies be more helpful. It's only when someone tries to game the system that I feel the need to curtail them.
Using a spell the way it's supposed to be used is gaming the system? How?


I find it amusing that you claim others are over-complicating things, yet your "solution" is to craft convoluted, purportedly all-encompasses commands that you'll somehow shout out in combat. Don't get me wrong, I want my players to use their heads and think, but more than that I want them to be heroes....not Lawyers!
I don't even know how to express how wrong this is, in this scenario you're blaming the players for something the DM is doing. My solution isn't the overcomplicated part, if you try to worm your way into subverting anything your players say then of course they're going to have to spend time trying to make what they say loophole free. If you don't want them to become lawyers then don't deliberately force them into doing it just to use a spell the way it's intended.


[QUOTE=7heprofessor;18708060]No, I haven't seen a large disparity in any of the classes as of yet, but using one specific spell to summon one specific kind of creature to use one specific ability is basically the definition of niche! It's going to happen so rarely, if ever at all, that I simply can't see what the big deal is. I've re-read most of the thread and can deal with every single instance of "imbalance" with one or more of the following, none of which change any of the rules as presented:
Really? Because it's a spell that anyone of seventh level and above can use over and over and fixes a huge amount of problems. Just because it's 'one spell' doesn't mean it's rarely going to be used, it's the second most effective way of knocking an opponent out of the fight outside of contagion.



Pixies do not speak Common. One could argue that the caster must be able to speak Sylvan for the Pixies to understand the commands.
The summoned creatures must roll initiative and act on that initiative. One could argue that they cannot act until the following round; most certainly if their initiative count has already passed.
The DM has the creature’s statistics. Personally, I would hand my Player the MM and say, "Have fun." Other DMs are well within their rights (if a little disingenuous) to hand a scrap piece of paper to the player with whatever the hell they want on it.
Pixies are tricky little $4!7s. Scarab112 nicely points out a few options the DM has at her disposal to deal with anything potentially campaign-shattering from 8 little fey.
A very strict reading of the spell does not allow you to select "Pixie" but rather "• Eight fey creatures of challenge rating 1/4 or lower." A DM frightened of losing his precious NPCs to Pixies could select which creatures appear himself. :/
The Save DC for their spell is a paltry 12. Granted, 8 iterations of DC12 can be quite difficult, but it is far from impossible to simply resist.
CWB is a Concentration spell. Hit the Druid and force her to make Concentration checks, or her mini-army goes *poof.*
Fireball. Because Fireball is always an answer.

Fireball, concentration, DC12, all relevant points. Everything else is the DM being passive aggressive rather than just telling his players he doesn't want them summoning pixies.

[DanyBallon]

Like I said before, you just need to limit the number of creature you can command to one per action. There's already precedent of this through the ranger beastmaster commanding its animal companion. Same goes for the fighter battle master commander's strike.
So even if you can summon up to 8 pixies, you'll be only able to give orders to a few of them.

[Eslin]

Like I said before, you just need to limit the number of creature you can command to one per action. There's already precedent of this through the ranger beastmaster commanding its animal companion. Same goes for the fighter battle master commander's strike.
So even if you can summon up to 8 pixies, you'll be only able to give orders to a few of them.

Doesn't that kind of arbitrarily make the bigger summons better? Example, you can summon two dire wolves or eight wolves with conjure animals, and they're supposed to be equal already. That pushes dire wolves into being flat out better without any good reason to do so.

[SharkForce]

CR is a guideline, and one that is not used in vacuum. Have you read the entry for Pixie in its entirety? It speaks to their abhorrence of violence, their curious, but shy nature, and their likelihood to flee should combat occur.

How on earth is a creature like that worth anything more than 1/4 CR? They could have Time Stop and Shapechange at will and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to CR in my game. It's all about how something is used by the creature that determines its power. Pixies are just as likely to Polymorph a PC into a cat as they are to put NPCs to Sleep just so they can tie their shoe-laces together!

How does any of this represent a challenge greater than 1/4?

CR is a measure of combat ability, not probability that the creature will engage in combat. I don't care if they're not *likely* to use it. for the average game, I'm not *likely* to pick a fight with an ancient gold dragon, which is most likely a shining paragon of goodness. that wouldn't justify the dragon having a CR of 1/4 to a good aligned party, no matter how unlikely it is for the dragon to fight and try to kill you.

giving them a CR of 1/4 breaks the game in the event that you *do* fight them. giving them a CR of 4 (or whatever their CR should be) and having them still be unlikely to try and kill anyone does not break the game for pixies, just like it doesn't break the game for ancient gold dragons.

if they absolutely *must* be capable of powerful combat effects, they should have an appropriate CR (and probably have a few more hit points so that they're not easy to farm for XP). if they absolutely must, for some unfathomable reason, have a low CR, they should have appropriate abilities to their CR.


and if they make a mistake assigning a creature's CR again later, the solution will once again be getting them to issue errata correcting the improper CR, not adding that specific creature to a blacklist. if the consensus is that something is a problem, we should fix the *whole* problem, not just ask for a Band-Aid to be slapped over a gaping chest wound. the creature will be a problem if you treat it as a CR 1/4 creature. by definition, it is therefore not a CR 1/4 creature.

I've had a party get completely destroyed by howlers in 3.0 because they had the wrong CR assigned. at no point was I thinking "man, thank goodness you can't summon these things with summon monster" when the TPK happened, rather at the time I was thinking "this is really obviously not an appropriate challenge for us to fight". afterwards, the DM realized that they were very obviously not an appropriate challenge, retconned the TPK (and I think retconned a few howlers away), and the game continued. but the WHOLE POINT of the CR system is making it so that such things are unlikely to happen.

[DanyBallon]

Doesn't that kind of arbitrarily make the bigger summons better? Example, you can summon two dire wolves or eight wolves with conjure animals, and they're supposed to be equal already. That pushes dire wolves into being flat out better without any good reason to do so.

Not commanding all the 8 wolves, won't prevent them from ganging up on your enemies as their instinct would command. The spell allow you to summon creatures that will obey your command, but why would it allow you to go beyond the abilities of others whose specialty is to command creatures?

[Easy_Lee]

This is then used to create 8 pixies, which can then make 8 low DC will save effects on a target. If the druid, who is now a target, and can't cast good defensive spells because he is maintaining concentration, gets dropped, the spells end. If the pixies lose concentration or die, the spells end. If another enemy stabs the sheep or frog, bringing it to 0 HP, the spell ends. I'm just not seeing the game breakingness here. Its a mid level spell with a reasonably good chance of winning a single encounter, so long as that encounter involves a small number of enemies with bad will saves.

I don't think I would allow a caster to maintain concentration on spells from inside a bag of holding. And even if he can, he can no longer command the pixies, who can now do whatever they feel like.

Couple comments:

Having con prof and warcaster makes the chance of losing concentration next to nothing.
The summon woodland creatures spell doesn't specify whether the caster can control exactly what kinds of creatures are summoned. This is the easiest way to limit the spell
Concentration doesn't have a range, nor does the caster need line of sight, so your bag of holding houserule is just that. However, it's good to remember that bags of holding break and spill their contents if something pierces the bag.

[SharkForce]

the best way to control the spell is to make it so that 8 pixies are not a problem when 8 of any other CR 1/4 creatures don't cause problems.

[draken50]

I've always felt the best solution to something you feel your players exploit/overuse is to talk to them, and then failing that.. use it against them.

Well these druids are hellbent on killing you, and are good allies with the pixies in the area, and oh I guess there's now a whole bunch of polymorphs going off in your direction. Does that feel unfair? Well you're going to have to get used to it.

Alternative: A lot of ranged attackers order to "Kill that one before he summons a bunch of damn pixies!"

[Eslin]

Not commanding all the 8 wolves, won't prevent them from ganging up on your enemies as their instinct would command. The spell allow you to summon creatures that will obey your command, but why would it allow you to go beyond the abilities of others whose specialty is to command creatures?

Because rangers are bad at everything and shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for anything? Seriously, their pet is stuck at CR 1/4, they have to give up an attack to let the pet attack and it still can't multiattack?

So yeah, it allows you to command the creatures as a free action because it's a third level spell that allows you to command the creatures as a free action. The beastmaster's not a useful comparison, any more than volley is a useful comparison for fireball.

[DanyBallon]

Because rangers are bad at everything and shouldn't be used as a measuring stick for anything? Seriously, their pet is stuck at CR 1/4, they have to give up an attack to let the pet attack and it still can't multiattack?

So yeah, it allows you to command the creatures as a free action because it's a third level spell that allows you to command the creatures as a free action. The beastmaster's not a useful comparison, any more than volley is a useful comparison for fireball.

I see you point, as for myself I think it should stick to the precedent created by the Beastmaster and Battle Master. But since there's no official ruling, both of us can do as we pleased as long as our players agrees to.

Edit I just reread the different Conjure spells and all of them specifies that you can issue a verbal command that they'll have to follow and that no actions is required from the caster. So I was wrong all along :)

[Gnaeus]

If the druid, who is now a target, and can't cast good defensive spells because he is maintaining concentration, gets dropped, the spells end. If the pixies lose concentration or die, the spells end.

Couple comments:
Having con prof and warcaster makes the chance of losing concentration next to nothing.


1. As mentioned before, I think that this assumption that every druid has 2 specific feats is overrated, and assuming that they do, it should be taken into account that they have spent a big chunk of resources to be good at that specific problem.

2. Unless you know of some way to summon 8 pixies that have Con prof and warcaster, your point does not at all address the quote you cited. Con Prof and Warcaster do not allow your druid to maintain defensive buffs while concentrating on a summon, nor do they help you maintain concentration when your druid is dropped by enemy fire. There is no check when you are unconscious.



Concentration doesn't have a range, nor does the caster need line of sight, so your bag of holding houserule is just that.

Yep. It is. So is any ruling limiting what the pixies can do. I still hold that letting a caster sit in a bag in an extradimensional space in total safety while maintaining concentration is entirely against the spirit of 5e, and a houserule touching on that (AFAIK) entirely unaddressed point on whether your spells can operate from an extradimensional space is much better than rewriting clearly stated RAW.

[MaxWilson]

We know there will be future releases of more Monster Manuals, which means more creatures of the classes (Elementals, Fey, Celestials, ...) which can be summoned. And with Conjure Woodland Beings (Pixies), we already have one example of something incredibly broken.

I'd rather have WotC errata "do you get to choose which conjured creature, or just choose the CR range as specified in the spell?" It appears to me to be the latter, but is commonly interpreted as the former, hence "I summon eight pixies!" instead of "I summon eight tiny fey!"/"The air shimmers and you see four little men with bows appear, riding on four miniature dragons!"

[Vogonjeltz]

The pixies don't use it on themselves, they use it on others- either the players, or more likely, the monsters to turn them into helpless creatures. Possibly some combination thereof. 8 level 3 spells being gained from a level 4 spellcasting is really what's the issue. And when a monster has to make 8 saves, it becomes statistically likely for it to miss one.



Having the player not in control of the effects of their spells isn't fun. It's also trying to weasel out of doing what the spell description implies.

Everyone trying to nerf summon spells in general or heck, spellcasting in general is fine, but for me, I look at the specific issue (a cr 1/4 creature should not have polymorph) and resolve it (pixies don't have polymorph). Bam. Issue solved- for PCs and NPCs alike, there is now no chance of exploiting that particular spell or creature, as it just doesn't have that ability. It was like Mirror Mephits having Simulacrum once per day in 3E, but being able to be a familiar. Choose this familiar, get an 8th level spell for free? Sounds totally balanced, right? Not so much- so they just didn't have it in my campaigns. No big deal.

I mean, the spell says the player gets to choose one of the #/CR combinations. That's the extent of it, it's up to the DM to decide what those CR whatever creatures actually are. Thems the breaks.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the clear intent of all the conjure spells, and the tradition of high fantasy, is that you get to choose your conjured allies. This is the flip side of my original post; as the number of monster manuals proliferates, the number of creatures that you'd be very disappointed to see show up in response to CWB (or any other conjure spell) will also grow. Plus the DM has to have a table of 8, no wait 17, no wait 43, no now they've released Monster Manual of the Feywild and it's up to 273 different choices.

Well, maybe not 273 at CR 1/4, but it could still get to be a pain for the DM to randomly choose conjurations, along with feeling unfair to the PC.

I think as the rule stands lots of druids and bards will be using CWB : Pixie as a go-to spell. And a lot of players in other classes will be disappointed by their role in combat being the slaughter of confused and / or polymorphed foes.

And when the wording of the spells says "The summoned creatures are friendly to you", the idea that the Pixies will deliberately misunderstand your orders in a life-or-death situation drops to 0.01%. The spell explicitly overrules the capricious, pacifistic nature of Pixies (or any other creature's nature); they will be friendly to you even if your alignment is NE, they will obey your verbal commands and not deliberately misunderstand. That's what is meant by "friendly".

That Pixies only speak Sylvan is an interesting point. The druid / bard needs to be High Elf, Half Elf, or choose a background that allows a bonus language in order to pick up Sylvan.

[Fwiffo86]

I stick with my House rule. Every conjure spell is different. You need Conjure: Alledria sisters (pixies) which is different that Conjure: Belfairon Blinking hunter (blinkdog). saves on the confusion of having to pick, because each creature has a name, and its own spell.

[Eslin]

I stick with my House rule. Every conjure spell is different. You need Conjure: Alledria sisters (pixies) which is different that Conjure: Belfairon Blinking hunter (blinkdog). saves on the confusion of having to pick, because each creature has a name, and its own spell.

Sounds pretty complicated, but if your players enjoy it go nuts. You must have very patient players, many I have had find even searching for spells to scribe to be an unwarranted distraction, can't imagine how they'd react to needing to keep a rolodex to get their conjuration spells to work.

[Fwiffo86]

Sounds pretty complicated, but if your players enjoy it go nuts. You must have very patient players, many I have had find even searching for spells to scribe to be an unwarranted distraction, can't imagine how they'd react to needing to keep a rolodex to get their conjuration spells to work.

Additional details: Each summoned creature has a name as I said, and if it gets "killed" in battle, it becomes banished and unsummonable for one game year. The trade off is that the base stats of the creature are boosted somewhat to coincide with the creature's name/theme. Such as the 8 daughters of the Slumbering King would be 8 pixies, that cast a DC 16 sleep (but requires all 8 to actually cast it once), but no polymorph.

This accomplishes a couple of things.

1 - spellcasters don't become reliant on summoned meatsheilds, as they find it is a one shot pony if they don't pay attention
2 - I control what spells they have access too. If they want to research "Conjure: Bibilith" they are free to do so. But they do not get "Conjure: Fey" where it has to be determined what creature they are summoning each time they cast it.

I view the summon spells as they are described in fiction.... "its a spell to summon the goat with a thousand young!" As opposed to being some ridiculous creature summon toolbox. I have never had a player complain, and many of them have told me its far easier to worry about one creature, than spend time figuring out which is best to summon at which time.

[Giant2005]

Why do people rate Pixies so highly in the first place?
Using Polymorph offensively can work but not if it is a Pixie with his incredible 1 HP casting the spell. Turning something into a harmless critter doesn't work when that critter is still powerful enough to one-shot the caster and revert the spell. If someone is unlucky enough to fail their save against the Pixie's low DC, they simply kill that Pixie with their next attack and continue fighting. Or they could embrace the transformation and consider it some free HP and attack other targets until someone inevitably attacks the creature and reverts it back to its normal form by dropping it to 0 HP.
Pixies could be useful by having them Polymorph the players and giving them the bonus HP but even then it is easily countered by killing the Pixies, in which case they have acted as the meat-shield the summon is designed to be.
Offensively Pixies are completely without decent options but they can be annoying enough to make themselves a target and take a hit or two for the players. There is nothing at all wrong with that.

[Eslin]

Why do people rate Pixies so highly in the first place?
Because they can incapacitate pretty much any creature in the game - a level appropriate use of the spell (4 for a hydra, 8 for an ancient gold dragon etc) can polymorph anything that isn't a shapechanger into something useless (at the very least, turning an ancient dragon into a quipper will let you lower its mental saves enough to dominate it and have it agree to go with you when you teleport, at which point the party wizard teleports it into space and teleports back without it. Plus you get a bunch of other useful spells like fly, dispel magic and confusion to play with.


Using Polymorph offensively can work but not if it is a Pixie with his incredible 1 HP casting the spell. Turning something into a harmless critter doesn't work when that critter is still powerful enough to one-shot the caster and revert the spell.
Yes it does. Turn them into a seahorse (which have neither movement speed on land nor any attacks) if your DM is some weird 'rulebooks cover everything, nothing not in here exists!' kind of guy. If he's a reasonable DM just make a nature check and ask what kind of creature is harmless, if he can't think of anything suggest a sloth (which can move 5 feet per minute if they're hurrying).


If someone is unlucky enough to fail their save against the Pixie's low DC, they simply kill that Pixie with their next attack and continue fighting. Or they could embrace the transformation and consider it some free HP and attack other targets until someone inevitably attacks the creature and reverts it back to its normal form by dropping it to 0 HP.
It's not 'unlucky enough', it's a DC12 wisdom save - most chump creatures have about a fifty percent chance to fail, and a powerful creature is going to need to succeed on 8 straight saves which thanks to bounded accuracy it statistically won't. And they aren't going to be able to kill the pixie or attack anything as something that can't really move or attack - turn them into a small stingless jellyfish, they won't be able to move and will take a few hours to die on land (long enough time to bury them). There is no reason to attack them and break the polymorph - if you don't want to risk surrounding them and murdering them after the fight you can risklessly put them in a small adamantine box (so they'll be crushed when they transform back), bury them deeply and let them suffocate when they transform back, toss them into a volcano, attach a weight and toss them into deep water, pretty much regardless of circumstance there's some way to ensure a helpless tiny creature will be in a position to immediately die once the transformation wears off within an hour.


Pixies could be useful by having them Polymorph the players and giving them the bonus HP but even then it is easily countered by killing the Pixies, in which case they have acted as the meat-shield the summon is designed to be.
The pixies can only transform the players into CR 1/4 creatures, not really worth it unless you're doing it for utility, turning into birds or fish or possums or something stealthy. In combat, far better to transform your foes into something helpless.


Offensively Pixies are completely without decent options but they can be annoying enough to make themselves a target and take a hit or two for the players. There is nothing at all wrong with that.
Confusion's a good offensive option and polymorph is a ridiculously useful one.

[Shining Wrath]

These (polymorph and confuse) are 4th level spells. Unless you want to argue that these spells should be lower level - which considering polymorph's ranking as one of the greatest cheese factories in D&D is a strange argument - getting 16 level 4 spells for a level 4 slot is pretty powerful.

And then there's the 16 level 3 spells (fly, phantasmal force).

Exactly how many spell slots do you have to turn one single level 4 slot into before it becomes OP?

[Eslin]

These (polymorph and confuse) are 4th level spells. Unless you want to argue that these spells should be lower level - which considering polymorph's ranking as one of the greatest cheese factories in D&D is a strange argument - getting 16 level 4 spells for a level 4 slot is pretty powerful.

And then there's the 16 level 3 spells (fly, phantasmal force).

Exactly how many spell slots do you have to turn one single level 4 slot into before it becomes OP?

Keep in mind you can't quite equate them to the same amount of spells, they're fixed to very specific spells and stuck at DC12.

But yeah, no way the spell is balanced, between CWB and contagion druids can shut down pretty much any single target in the game. Pixies should not be CR 1/4 - that's equal to a wolf, which one is more powerful?

[Giant2005]

These (polymorph and confuse) are 4th level spells. Unless you want to argue that these spells should be lower level - which considering polymorph's ranking as one of the greatest cheese factories in D&D is a strange argument - getting 16 level 4 spells for a level 4 slot is pretty powerful.

And then there's the 16 level 3 spells (fly, phantasmal force).

Exactly how many spell slots do you have to turn one single level 4 slot into before it becomes OP?

It isn't converting one level 4 spell into a bunch of other spells though is it? I agree that would be extremely OP.
It is converting 1 level 4 spell into 8 creatures each of which can cast other spells with the downside that those same creatures are the squishiest in the game. It is pretty likely that they won't even get a single spell off before they are all wasted as a gentle breeze could very well do it. We are talking about creatures that are easily eaten by tiny lizards or even a non-venomous spider. Those spells if cast at all before the untimely death of those casters shouldn't be lasting more than a single round due to the extreme squishiness of the casters.
Consider your Pixie being easily dominated in 1v1 combat verses this guy and then try and convince yourself that they are OP:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3489/3957762521_8b23423a91_b.jpg

[Eslin]

It isn't converting one level 4 spell into a bunch of other spells though is it? I agree that would be extremely OP.
It is converting 1 level 4 spell into 8 creatures each of which can cast other spells with the downside that those same creatures are the squishiest in the game. It is pretty likely that they won't even get a single spell off before they are all wasted as a gentle breeze could very well do it. We are talking about creatures that are easily eaten by tiny lizards or even a non-venomous spider. Those spells if cast at all before the untimely death of those casters shouldn't be lasting more than a single round due to the extreme squishiness of the casters.
Consider your Pixie being easily dominated in 1v1 combat verses this guy and then try and convince yourself that they are OP:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3489/3957762521_8b23423a91_b.jpg

Will do. Pixies can fly, they don't need to get close enough to anything to get killed - there are a few situations they're not appropriate in, but for the most part they can incapacitate your foes without your foes being able to attack the pixies back. That said, their greatest utility is small numbers of strong targets - confusion bombing is good, and it does well against large numbers of foes, but pretty much nothing can make its saves against 8-24 polymorphs.

[Invader]

I'm firmly in the camp of the player chooses what gets summoned, you know because that's what it says in the description. And the player controls the summoned creatures because, in no way imaginable does the phrase "the dm has the creatures statistics" resemble "the dm controls the creature".

That out of the way, it's really pointless arguing about a spell in theory. Even at the most liberal, player friendly ruling, the spell effectiveness ranges from almost useless to totally absurd. Either way it's only a problem if your players abuse it. If they don't, congratulations, the spell is fine and all is good. If they do, confront them about and come up with an amicable solution, congratulations, the spell is fine and all is good.

[Eslin]

I'm firmly in the camp of the player chooses what gets summoned, you know because that's what it says in the description. And the player controls the summoned creatures because, in no way imaginable does the phrase "the dm has the creatures statistics" resemble "the dm controls the creature".

That out of the way, it's really pointless arguing about a spell in theory. Even at the most liberal, player friendly ruling, the spell effectiveness ranges from almost useless to totally absurd. Either way it's only a problem if your players abuse it. If they don't, congratulations, the spell is fine and all is good. If they do, confront them about and come up with an amicable solution, congratulations, the spell is fine and all is good.

Is it really abuse? People seem to have really differing definitions of abuse around here, so I'm genuinely asking. CWB gives an almost certain way of disabling small numbers of enemies, so if you have the spell you'd use it whenever it was a good idea - is that abusing it?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

It always being a good idea is a pretty good sign it breaks the game balance.

IMO: Anything that provides exceptional power without commensurate cost or drawback is abusive. Even if other players bear no ill will over it, it will distort the metagame such that gameplay revolves around that source of exceptional power and its counters. Think about DM choice. There's tons of creatures that can't deal with polymorph spam of that magnitude, drastically reducing the ability of DMs to create challenging encounters for their players. It's actually worse than players being overpowered, since that be compensated for by increasing the CR of encounters.

The true dangers become apparent once you consider more than one player using the spell, or even just multiple casts CWB. Sixteen or twenty-four polymorph casts? Yuck. 5e just isn't designed to deal with spam like that.

Although a more graceful way to handle it might be conditional immunity to repeated spellcasts - i.e. once you exert the necessary mental control to maintain your shape integrity further attempts to affect it are fruitless for a period of time. That's one of the few ways MMOs have found to successfully combat crowd control spam.

[Fwiffo86]

...between CWB and contagion druids can shut down pretty much any single target

The contagion issue has been settled. This does not work.

[Invader]

Is it really abuse? People seem to have really differing definitions of abuse around here, so I'm genuinely asking. CWB gives an almost certain way of disabling small numbers of enemies, so if you have the spell you'd use it whenever it was a good idea - is that abusing it?

I meant abuse as in casting it repeatedly and having all the pixies cast polymorph at the same bbeg in every fight in the hopes that the averages would immediately end every fight. Basically spamming it in the hopes that it ruins encounters.

[Gnaeus]

That said, their greatest utility is small numbers of strong targets - confusion bombing is good, and it does well against large numbers of foes, but pretty much nothing can make its saves against 8-24 polymorphs.

True. But being polymorphed by a pixie is not the same as being polymorphed by a wizard. As you are so proud of pointing out, breaking the (specifically built to your standards) wizard's polymorph is likely to involve killing the wizard. Breaking the pixie's polymorph and releasing the enemy is much easier (except of course, in either case, the EASIEST way to break the spell is just to step on the frog you polymorphed my buddy into). And it is hardly as assured as you pretend it is, because as previously discussed, there is about a 50/50 chance that the pixies will go after the intended target in initiative, thus giving the enemy a chance to kill the caster or the pixies in a way that is pretty uncommon among 5e spells.

And 24? From an 8th level slot? For that to be OP, it has to be clearly better than anything else you can do with an 8th level slot.

Are 24 low DC polymorphs on a time delay clearly better than:
A 60' high DC burst doing 12d6 +blindness
A 300' long, 300' high wall of water with a higher DC pushing back all your enemies and dealing damage.
A 50' radius cylinder throwing all your enemies 100' into the air with no save to avoid the effect and a dex save to remain clinging to the ground.
A Charisma save to literally send your target to hell (easier to resist, much harder to undo)
A No save prison of force that requires a Cha save to teleport out of.
A wisdom save or turn a monster into your puppet for up to an hour.
A spell that stuns any target within 150' and only begins giving them saves after their first turn of stun wears off.

I will grant that 24 pixies is a good use of a level 8 slot. But clearly better than any of those other options that a level 15 druid or bard could use instead? And given that many of those other spells do not require concentration and thereby let you maintain your personal or party buffs while you use them?

You can't just argue it in a vacuum. 8th level spells are incredibly powerful. You have to show that it is uniquely powerful.

[Eslin]

The contagion issue has been settled. This does not work.
It pretty clearly does. I've rechecked the wording many times, it definitely applies immediately.


I meant abuse as in casting it repeatedly and having all the pixies cast polymorph at the same bbeg in every fight in the hopes that the averages would immediately end every fight. Basically spamming it in the hopes that it ruins encounters.

So does that make the barbarian who uses basic attacks repeatedly and basic attacks the bbeg in every fight in the hope of killing it an abuser? Give someone a useful tool and they're going to use it whenever it's the best tool for the situation.


Lots of text on how to deal with the spell being too good
Why not just make pixies not cr 1/4? They're plainly a lot more dangerous than any other cr 1/4 creature.


True. But being polymorphed by a pixie is not the same as being polymorphed by a wizard. As you are so proud of pointing out, breaking the (specifically built to your standards) wizard's polymorph is likely to involve killing the wizard. Breaking the pixie's polymorph and releasing the enemy is much easier (except of course, in either case, the EASIEST way to break the spell is just to step on the frog you polymorphed my buddy into). And it is hardly as assured as you pretend it is, because as previously discussed, there is about a 50/50 chance that the pixies will go after the intended target in initiative, thus giving the enemy a chance to kill the caster or the pixies in a way that is pretty uncommon among 5e spells.
Which is why it's best against small groups of strong foes. The more opportunities you give them, the better the chances that they'll manage to take out the pixies and unravel the whole thing. From experience they can easily incapacitate, say, two fire giants (which the party then buried alive), it's not great in large fights (although having the pixies confusion everyone does prove to be insanely hard to deal with, they just stay invisible and confusion a 20 foot circle of people - repeat 8 times, win fight).


And 24? From an 8th level slot? For that to be OP, it has to be clearly better than anything else you can do with an 8th level slot.
That, not sure how to put this, is not how logic works. If for something to be OP it has to be clearly better than anything else you can do with the same spell slot then nothing in the history of the game has been OP, even in 3.5 - was celerity clearly better than enervation?


Are 24 low DC polymorphs on a time delay clearly better than:
A 60' high DC burst doing 12d6 +blindness
A 300' long, 300' high wall of water with a higher DC pushing back all your enemies and dealing damage.
A 50' radius cylinder throwing all your enemies 100' into the air with no save to avoid the effect and a reflex save to remain clinging to the ground.
A Charisma save to literally send your target to hell (easier to resist, much harder to undo)
A No save prison of force that requires a Cha save to teleport out of.
A wisdom save or turn a monster into your puppet for up to an hour.
A spell that stuns any target within 150' and only begins giving them saves after their first turn of stun wears off.

I will grant that 24 pixies is a good use of a level 8 slot. But clearly better than any of those other options that a level 15 druid or bard could use instead? And given that many of those other spells do not require concentration and thereby let you maintain your personal or party buffs while you use them?

You can't just argue it in a vacuum. 8th level spells are incredibly powerful. You have to show that it is uniquely powerful.
I really, really don't. That's a completely arbitrary qualifier with no real bearing on what impact a spell has on the game, the only thing 24 DC 12 polymorphs are absolutely better than is <24 or DC <12 polymorphs.

[Fwiffo86]

It pretty clearly does. I've rechecked the wording many times, it definitely applies immediately.

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure the penalty to the Con save does not apply to the three Con saves to resist the contagion spell itself. All other functions remain the same. As per designer tweet.

[Eslin]

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I'm pretty sure the penalty to the Con save does not apply to the three Con saves to resist the contagion spell itself. All other functions remain the same. As per designer tweet.

I checked all over the sixty dollar finished product based around ease of use that I bought and couldn't find designer tweets anywhere.

[Fwiffo86]

I checked all over the sixty dollar finished product based around ease of use that I bought and couldn't find designer tweets anywhere.

And yet the tweet exists, and as the PHB is a living document, is considered part of the PHB.

[archaeo]

I checked all over the sixty dollar finished product based around ease of use that I bought and couldn't find designer tweets anywhere.

The designer said, "This is how we wanted you to read it." They made a mistake in writing the spell. Is that really so damning?

Either way, you're free to play using the broken wording, or you can find a house rule that makes the spell work to your satisfaction. It is hardly such an egregious problem that it tanks your "sixty dollar finished product."

[Gnaeus]

That, not sure how to put this, is not how logic works. If for something to be OP it has to be clearly better than anything else you can do with the same spell slot then nothing in the history of the game has been OP, even in 3.5 - was celerity clearly better than enervation?


I really, really don't. That's a completely arbitrary qualifier with no real bearing on what impact a spell has on the game, the only thing 24 DC 12 polymorphs are absolutely better than is <24 or DC <12 polymorphs.

No, it is the only measurement. I can't say OMG WTF Firestorm is teh uber because it does 7d6 damage to a bunch of targets. The reason I can't make that argument is because firestorm is actually in line with damage spells of its level. A Fireball cast at 7 does 12d6. A sunburst, 1 level higher, does 12d6 with a blindness rider. The reason you can (incorrectly) argue that every druid will have Con proficiency and Warcaster is that you can demonstrate that for a certain subset of druids Con proficiency and warcaster are clearly better than the alternatives, like +4 Wisdom or Con.

So, you can't actually show that it is any more powerful than any of the dozen other options the caster has at the same level. Then you have no reason to nerf it unless you are going to nerf most or all of the other 8th level spells.

Your example isn't particularly applicable because Celerity isn't directly used as an attack spell. You will notice that I did not try to compare SWB (pixies for polymorph spam) with glibness, or control weather, or even plane shift except in its use as a combat spell. Thats really apples and oranges. I'm comparing it with all the other similar level spells that the people who might cast SWB might use a 7th or 8th level spell slot for if they want to shut down an encounter. Sometimes SWB will be better, sometimes Sunburst will be better, sometimes Tsunami will be better. That is the best definition of balanced. Not clearly superior or inferior to other options with similar opportunity cost.

[Eslin]

The designer said, "This is how we wanted you to read it." They made a mistake in writing the spell. Is that really so damning?

Either way, you're free to play using the broken wording, or you can find a house rule that makes the spell work to your satisfaction. It is hardly such an egregious problem that it tanks your "sixty dollar finished product."
It isn't, otherwise I would have returned it like I did the crappy DMG - the PHB and MM both have flaws, but their good points far outweigh them. That doesn't mean the flaws have good reasons to exist, this is the fifth edition of the game, they had heaps of money, time and playtesting to throw at it - and the spell is either useless if it doesn't go into effect immediately or way too good if it does, there's no balanced middle ground at all. It's shoddy writing of the highest order, at least CWB was an understandable oversight.

[Fwiffo86]

It isn't, otherwise I would have returned it like I did the crappy DMG - the PHB and MM both have flaws, but their good points far outweigh them. That doesn't mean the flaws have good reasons to exist, this is the fifth edition of the game, they had heaps of money, time and playtesting to throw at it - and the spell is either useless if it doesn't go into effect immediately or way too good if it does, there's no balanced middle ground at all. It's shoddy writing of the highest order, at least CWB was an understandable oversight.

My understanding is that it goes into effect, but the saves to resist it are not effected. You get straight con saves to resist the contagion spell. Con saves for other spells are affected as it reads.

I think you may be viewing this with a desire that it be broken, or that it be overpowered, thus are unwilling to accept the designer's tweet.

[Eslin]

My understanding is that it goes into effect, but the saves to resist it are not effected. You get straight con saves to resist the contagion spell. Con saves for other spells are affected as it reads.

I think you may be viewing this with a desire that it be broken, or that it be overpowered, thus are unwilling to accept the designer's tweet.
No, I remade the spell for my game. As is it's either way too good or way too crap - even with the constitution saves to resist the spell not being affected (which can't be what they intended, there's nothing to support that, at least for 'it only goes into effect once they fail three saves' they could just have missed it by having the book proofread by cats) it's a guaranteed three round stun at least.

[7heprofessor]

For everyone claiming that Pixies should be >CR1/4:

Have any of you tried using the DMG tables for monster design? I'm AFB at the moment, but it would be interesting to see what they come out to.


Ultimately, I can't see how any creature with 1 HP and only 15 AC can possibly be very high!

I do understand that the versatility of spells is very difficult to quantify, but the Designers decided that Polymorph is in-line with other 4th level spells. In general, I agree. There are a few uses that might put it at the top-end of 4th level power ratings, but it's definitely not a 5th level spell.

I also understand that Hit Points are not the only determining factor in CR calculations. They do play a major role, however, and setting a creature's HP to 1 show a clear indication that they are fragile, and should not be a challenge for just about anything.

There are ~40 CR1/4 creatures in the Monster Manual. Every single one of them can kill a Pixie with relative ease. The Pixie, however, is not able to kill any of them with its spell-like abilities, and would have a very hard time trying with its melee attack. Incapacitate? Sure, but not permanently. Ultimately, I simply cannot see raising the CR on the Pixie as justifiable.

For the few people having a hard time reconciling this use of Conjure Woodland Beings, consider that you are calling for errata on one use of one specific spell to summon a specific creature to use a specific spell for a specific purpose....best of luck to you, and I commend you for trying, but this is simply NOT an issue to have Designers re-writing rules compendiums over!

Trust me, it is not likely to be cast often for exactly this purpose, but even if it is, there are a plethora of ways of dealing with it as-is. If you need any help with encounter design, feel free to PM me.


Either way...just my 2 cp

[hawklost]

Conjure Woodland Beings, I would like you to meet, Sunburst (Centered on Druid who cast Conjure)

Problem Solved.

[Eslin]

For everyone claiming that Pixies should be >CR1/4:

Have any of you tried using the DMG tables for monster design? I'm AFB at the moment, but it would be interesting to see what they come out to.


Ultimately, I can't see how any creature with 1 HP and only 15 AC can possibly be very high!
By having abilities that make up for that, in this case invisibility and several mid level spells. Just because it has very low direct defenses doesn't mean its other abilities are weak - if there was a 1hp creature with the ability to cast ice storm and fireball (equal level spells) it wouldn't be CR 1/4 either. An aspect of a creature being extremely poor would only make it cr 1/4 if that aspect meant that the other aspects were not dangerous (like a monster with insane hp but no way of attacking), but the pixie can still have a chance to use its spells so that is not the case. A pixie can still potentially get several spells off if it doesn't take a direct hit - do you see how it can possibly be very high now?


I also understand that Hit Points are not the only determining factor in CR calculations. They do play a major role, however, and setting a creature's HP to 1 show a clear indication that they are fragile, and should not be a challenge for just about anything.
Why does fragile mean it shouldn't be a challenge? The old lady who terrorised my players before eventually eating them one by one back in 3.5 had a maximum hp of 4, she was just tricky enough to never get hit.


There are ~40 CR1/4 creatures in the Monster Manual. Every single one of them can kill a Pixie with relative ease. The Pixie, however, is not able to kill any of them with its spell-like abilities, and would have a very hard time trying with its melee attack. Incapacitate? Sure, but not permanently. Ultimately, I simply cannot see raising the CR on the Pixie as justifiable.
Why not? CR isn't only measurable through direct combat, if you had a creature that could only heal and buff it wouldn't necessitate giving it a low CR. Just like players, you don't determine power by saying lets you and him fight. To demonstrate: 4 frost giants and 4 pixies face off against 4 fire giants. Who wins? By CR the fire giants do, but in an actual fight the frost giants will win without even taking a casualty, between confusion and polymorph the fire giants will get slaughtered in a series of 4 on 1 fights.


For the few people having a hard time reconciling this use of Conjure Woodland Beings, consider that you are calling for errata on one use of one specific spell to summon a specific creature to use a specific spell for a specific purpose....best of luck to you, and I commend you for trying, but this is simply NOT an issue to have Designers re-writing rules compendiums over!
No, all you need to do is adjust pixies to a CR commensurate with their abilities.


Trust me, it is not likely to be cast often for exactly this purpose, but even if it is, there are a plethora of ways of dealing with it as-is. If you need any help with encounter design, feel free to PM me.
Why wouldn't it? Of course it's likely to be cast often for exactly this purpose, summoning a bunch of pixies is a huge help in a huge number of solutions.


Conjure Woodland Beings, I would like you to meet, Sunburst (Centered on Druid who cast Conjure)

Problem Solved.
That's an eighth level spell. This is like saying meteor swarm is the solution to skeleton armies or that buying a nearby car is the solution to needing a ride to the airport.

[Invader]

For the few people having a hard time reconciling this use of Conjure Woodland Beings, consider that you are calling for errata on one use of one specific spell to summon a specific creature to use a specific spell for a specific purpose....best of luck to you, and I commend you for trying, but this is simply NOT an issue to have Designers re-writing rules compendiums over.

Actually that's literally the exact reason for errata :smallconfused:

[Invader]

Conjure Woodland Beings, I would like you to meet, Sunburst (Centered on Druid who cast Conjure)

Problem Solved.

Except sunburst is way over the point where you get CWB and even so most Druids aren't going to have to hard of a time passing the con save.

[hawklost]

Except sunburst is way over the point where you get CWB and even so most Druids aren't going to have to hard of a time passing the con save.

True, it is a high level spell, but I wasn't aiming at the Druids (although for some reason I was thinking CWB having 24 of them required an 8th or 9th level slot.. EDIT, yup, 8th level slot required to get 24). Sunburst will hit all the summons in a single time (assuming they have not been able to move). It doesn't matter that the Druid saves, the Pixies will all die.

[Invader]

True, it is a high level spell, but I wasn't aiming at the Druids (although for some reason I was thinking CWB having 24 of them required an 8th or 9th level slot.. EDIT, yup, 8th level slot required to get 24). Sunburst will hit all the summons in a single time (assuming they have not been able to move). It doesn't matter that the Druid saves, the Pixies will all die.

That's a bit confusing because you specifically said "centered on the druid" which would do nothing to the pixies unless they were in the diameter of the spell.

[SharkForce]

good thing the spell can't be used to launch a surprise attack with a bunch of invisible flying pixies that last an hour, right?

oh wait... what's that? it *can* be used for just such a thing?

it's got some *possible* counters if cast in the middle of a fight. if the caster just calls them up and has a bunch of invisible flying scouts that find enemies, report back, and then disable as many targets as possible so that the PCs can finish them off, it's a problem.

but even so, this is still beside the point: suppose for some reason the pixies are not their usual selves. perhaps they're controlled by magic, perhaps you're an unholy abomination that they'll make an exception for, perhaps the land has become tainted and the pixies are now violent.

can you throw them at your PCs as a CR 1/4 creature and get the same difficulty of encounter? they're only a problem when summoned with a spell because they're a problem *any* time they fight someone while counting as CR 1/4.

change pixies to be less powerful, or change their CR to be higher (possibly with a small increase in HP attached). either will fix the problem.

(and on a side note, last I checked polymorph CR is based on the CR of the target, not the caster - so at level 7 you can turn the whole party into giant apes, provided you have some means of keeping them on task - and had no restrictions that would prevent you from, say, turning a person into a fish outside of water which is doomed to suffocate. bearing in mind that death from suffocation does not deal HP damage, so they won't revert until they're dead unless something else happens, and then they will stay dead).

simply put: they are not an appropriate creature for CR 1/4. they are far more dangerous than other CR 1/4 creatures, regardless of what their HP value is. their abilities need to be changed, or their CR does. fix the creature, and the spell is fine. "fix" the spell, and the creature is still a problem. CWB is a *symptom* of the problem, not the problem itself. nobody thinks that the ability to conjure 8 of any other CR 1/4 creature and control them is a problem. the fact that it *is* a problem when you get a bunch of pixies should make it *really obvious* that it is the pixies, not the spell, which is a problem.

[hawklost]

That's a bit confusing because you specifically said "centered on the druid" which would do nothing to the pixies unless they were in the diameter of the spell.

Pixies can only appear within a 60ft radius of the Druid. The Spell is a 60ft radius from a point. Ergo, If the pixies do not get a chance to move from their summon point, the blast would destroy all of them even if they saved.

[Invader]

Pixies can only appear within a 60ft radius of the Druid. The Spell is a 60ft radius from a point. Ergo, If the pixies do not get a chance to move from their summon point, the blast would destroy all of them even if they saved.

Ahh I see now.

[7heprofessor]

simply put: they are not an appropriate creature for CR 1/4. they are far more dangerous than other CR 1/4 creatures, regardless of what their HP value is. their abilities need to be changed, or their CR does. fix the creature, and the spell is fine. "fix" the spell, and the creature is still a problem. CWB is a *symptom* of the problem, not the problem itself. nobody thinks that the ability to conjure 8 of any other CR 1/4 creature and control them is a problem. the fact that it *is* a problem when you get a bunch of pixies should make it *really obvious* that it is the pixies, not the spell, which is a problem.

I completely agree that CWB is not the problem here.

Between you and Eslin, I'm becoming convinced that 1/4 is not an appropriate CR. In all my years of being a DM, I've always loved using low CR creatures in new and interesting ways that play up their strengths and then have the party scratching their heads over why it was so tough to take down a few weak creatures. While CR is a guideline for how much of a challenge a creature should be, there is no substitute for clever play. The way Pixie's are written, it's probably a bit too easy to do just that.

So, if we keep all of the stats as they are, what would an appropriate CR be?

[hawklost]

I completely agree that CWB is not the problem here.

Between you and Eslin, I'm becoming convinced that 1/4 is not an appropriate CR. In all my years of being a DM, I've always loved using low CR creatures in new and interesting ways that play up their strengths and then have the party scratching their heads over why it was so tough to take down a few weak creatures. While CR is a guideline for how much of a challenge a creature should be, there is no substitute for clever play. The way Pixie's are written, it's probably a bit too easy to do just that.

So, if we keep all of the stats as they are, what would an appropriate CR be?

Since CR is based on the assumption of a single creature of that type (Not multiple) the quest should be defined by what is the CR for a single one of them?

Can a single one take on a CR 1/4 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Can a single one take on a CR 1/2 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Can it take on a CR 1 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Not just a single version of those CR creatures but multiple different CR 1/4, 1/2, 1 (1 at a time of course)

[Kornaki]

Since CR is based on the assumption of a single creature of that type (Not multiple) the quest should be defined by what is the CR for a single one of them?

Can a single one take on a CR 1/4 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Can a single one take on a CR 1/2 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Can it take on a CR 1 and win more than 50% of the time? If so, what is the win/loss ratio?

Not just a single version of those CR creatures but multiple different CR 1/4, 1/2, 1 (1 at a time of course)

This gets back to the point that a creature with 1000 hit points, an AC of 40 and the ability to cast Heal 100 times per day is a CR 0 creature somehow as long as you don't give it the ability to attack.

I woud furthermore argue that CR is not supposed to compare creatures to each other, but how many resources a creature costs a party. Two CR 1/4 creatures should consume an approximately equal amount of resources when fighting a party.

[hawklost]

This gets back to the point that a creature with 1000 hit points, an AC of 40 and the ability to cast Heal 100 times per day is a CR 0 creature somehow as long as you don't give it the ability to attack.

I woud furthermore argue that CR is not supposed to compare creatures to each other, but how many resources a creature costs a party. Two CR 1/4 creatures should consume an approximately equal amount of resources when fighting a party.

Then test them against a party multiple different ways.

Ambush Scenario (Creature)

Ambush Scenario (Party)

Long distance (more than 60ft apart)

Medium distance (between 35-60 ft apart)

Short distance (30 and less)

If in all those scenarios, the Pixie is superior to any other CR 1/4 I would say he is wrong location. If in 3 out of 5 the pixie is always better then he is close to the right location and might not fit a CR 1/2 though, so you would have to compare them to a CR 1/2 grouping then.

[silveralen]

I completely agree that CWB is not the problem here.

Between you and Eslin, I'm becoming convinced that 1/4 is not an appropriate CR. In all my years of being a DM, I've always loved using low CR creatures in new and interesting ways that play up their strengths and then have the party scratching their heads over why it was so tough to take down a few weak creatures. While CR is a guideline for how much of a challenge a creature should be, there is no substitute for clever play. The way Pixie's are written, it's probably a bit too easy to do just that.

So, if we keep all of the stats as they are, what would an appropriate CR be?

The DMG is remarkably unhelpful, given that it only considers directly offensive/defensive abilities.

Defensively it would start out as CR 1 due to the low hp+above average AC+multiple defense features (magic resistance, invisibility, and flying), and CR 0 with offense due to having no actual attacks. However....

Phantasmal force is a (fairly weak) direct damage spell, albeit only 1d6. That's still enough for CR 1/8 or 1/4 offensively. Entangle is effectively like the web ability of a giant spider, except targeted at multiple enemies (effectively a +2 AC vs a basic +1 for web). The other spells give comparable direct combat usage if we look at them in a vacuum.

That results in a defensive CR of 2 and offensive CR of 1/4, averaged out it is a CR 1 creature. Now, this isn't really looking at the "creative" usages of the abilities, but it is a much more inline with the basic abilities the spell casting offers. Which arguably should have been included in any case.

That gives us two pixies summoned. That's a bit more inline with what you'd expect. You have more spells, but they lose concentration easier. It's, imo, roughly balanced. Which really begs the question why they didn't follow their own monster CR rules for the MM.

Edit: Don't include polymorph in CR calculations it ends up causing a weird feedback loop where the creatures CR= their highest CR. It's... very strange.

[Shining Wrath]

AHA! Another point rears its ugly head.

The DMG gives guidelines for encounter difficulty, and one of the factors is the number of foes. There's a multiplier table, and it goes something like (AFB, excuse inexactness):
1 foe, multiplier 1
2 foes, multiplier 1.25
3-6 foes, multiplier 1.5
7-10 foes, multiplier 2
...

You get one creature of CR 2. 8 creatures of CR 1/4, though, count as twice as many XP as they would normally. You ought to get about 5 pixies to match a CR 2 creature, not 8.

Pixies are still OP but this suggests that CWB failed to account for the multiplier in the DMG when allocating number of conjurations to CR.

[7heprofessor]

Actually that's literally the exact reason for errata :smallconfused:

I disagree. Errata should be reserved for error-correction, and as a community we should bring to the attention of the authors anything that could lead to widespread issues and ask that they be included in any erratum. I strongly believe this is a very niche instance, and think that there is very little cause for errata on Conjure Woodland Beings.



However, the Pixie may prove to be over its given CR; that might be something to suggest to a Dev. when discussing Monster Manual errata. The OP was suggesting an additional clause to the summoning rules in general, something I strongly disagree with (thus my reason for posting in the first place).

[Shining Wrath]

I disagree. Errata should be reserved for error-correction, and as a community we should bring to the attention of the authors anything that could lead to widespread issues and ask that they be included in any erratum. I strongly believe this is a very niche instance, and think that there is very little cause for errata on Conjure Woodland Beings.



However, the Pixie may prove to be over its given CR; that might be something to suggest to a Dev. when discussing Monster Manual errata. The OP was suggesting an additional clause to the summoning rules in general, something I strongly disagree with (thus my reason for posting in the first place).

And I'd rather fix an obvious problem by addressing the root, not the instance. The root problem is not that Pixies are OP; the root problem is conjuring hordes of creatures with SLA at the same level as the spell. As monsters proliferate, there will be other "glass cannons" with low HP and hence low CR, but the ability to do nasty SLA stuff while they live. Allowing hordes of those new monsters to be conjured with a mid-level spell will be just as broken.

[archaeo]

And I'd rather fix an obvious problem by addressing the root, not the instance. The root problem is not that Pixies are OP; the root problem is conjuring hordes of creatures with SLA at the same level as the spell. As monsters proliferate, there will be other "glass cannons" with low HP and hence low CR, but the ability to do nasty SLA stuff while they live. Allowing hordes of those new monsters to be conjured with a mid-level spell will be just as broken.

I'm inclined to agree; while summoning spells in and of themselves don't bum me out, adding 8 of anything to an encounter in 5e has the potential to slow combat to a crawl. I don't really mind so much that they're really overpowered -- a wide range of encounter difficulty will still end up providing challenges to a party with a CWB caster -- but that they tend to be an "I'm dominating this combat in the real world" button.

However, I have a hard time believing the 5e errata will be so sweeping, especially right out of the gate. In the meantime, whatever WotC decides to do, the house rule solutions are obvious and easy to implement. You can ban a) summoning 8 of anything or b) summoning pixies or c) summoning these pixies. Those seem like the easiest things to do. The whole "The DM picks the summons" seems right out, to me.

[Urpriest]

And I'd rather fix an obvious problem by addressing the root, not the instance. The root problem is not that Pixies are OP; the root problem is conjuring hordes of creatures with SLA at the same level as the spell. As monsters proliferate, there will be other "glass cannons" with low HP and hence low CR, but the ability to do nasty SLA stuff while they live. Allowing hordes of those new monsters to be conjured with a mid-level spell will be just as broken.

I don't think that's necessary at all. There aren't a lot of PC classes with extremely low HP "balanced" by extremely powerful attacks, after all. Yes, it's a spectrum, but there's nothing on the same level as the Pixie. Nor were there any monsters from 4e that were glass cannons to this extent. If you have sensible guidelines and stick with them, then you never end up designing monsters that cause this sort of problem in the first place, because you understand that if you make something too much of a glass cannon fights with it will be too swingy and it will be impossible to balance.

[Psikerlord]

'They obey any verbal commands you issue to them'




Yeah I think that is the problem sentence. So change the above to "the pixies are under the DMs control" instead. So then the caster needs to somehow persuade the pixies to help him. It's not just cast spell and then ok - "Pixie Team - Polymorph all the bad guys!" (or sleep them, or invisible my team, etc etc).

[Shining Wrath]

As I think I've said already, the idea that Conjure family spells bring a bunch of PC's onto the battlefield who are DM controlled is a big change - bigger than my proposal, although simpler - but has some merit.

It would add role-playing complexity. For example, I view Fey as inherently opposed to undead; a Necromancer whose Druid buddy used CWB or Conjure Fey might not live to complain about it. It pretty much takes Conjure Fiend or Conjure Celestial off the table for players of the wrong alignment.

[Dalebert]

Yeah I think that is the problem sentence. So change the above to "the pixies are under the DMs control" instead. So then the caster needs to somehow persuade the pixies to help him. It's not just cast spell and then ok - "Pixie Team - Polymorph all the bad guys!" (or sleep them, or invisible my team, etc etc).

Isn't this a combat spell? It's not like you have time to open up negotiations. Spells like that typically have a very long, possibly indefinite duration for a summoned creature to complete some elaborate task. That would be a serious nerf to this spell, possibly making it nigh useless. Maybe you can find some compromise wording like that the summoned creatures are friendly to and inclined to help and defend the caster, but will do so in the manner they choose.

[Psikerlord]

Isn't this a combat spell? It's not like you have time to open up negotiations. Spells like that typically have a very long, possibly indefinite duration for a summoned creature to complete some elaborate task. That would be a serious nerf to this spell, possibly making it nigh useless. Maybe you can find some compromise wording like that the summoned creatures are friendly to and inclined to help and defend the caster, but will do so in the manner they choose.
I think "friendly to caster" is already in the description. So just delete the line about obeying commands and change the last line to "if you dont issue any suggestions to them...."

[Eslin]

Yeah I think that is the problem sentence. So change the above to "the pixies are under the DMs control" instead. So then the caster needs to somehow persuade the pixies to help him. It's not just cast spell and then ok - "Pixie Team - Polymorph all the bad guys!" (or sleep them, or invisible my team, etc etc).

They're also friendly to you. Your solution isn't a good one, it doesn't reduce the strength at all just adds complication and frustration.

[Knaight]

That results in a defensive CR of 2 and offensive CR of 1/4, averaged out it is a CR 1 creature. Now, this isn't really looking at the "creative" usages of the abilities, but it is a much more inline with the basic abilities the spell casting offers. Which arguably should have been included in any case.

That's a lot better than the 1/4. Having 1 hit point was overemphasized as a weakness anyways - it's not as if it's substantially different than having 3-4 most of the time, and even being meaningfully different than having 6-7 is often dependent on dice rolls. Pixies are extremely vulnerable to area effects, but as individual targets they really aren't all that fragile, and they've got some seriously good abilities which don't get factored into the DMG CR of 1.

[Fwiffo86]

That's not my quote Knaight. Put the wrong name up there.

[Urpriest]

Isn't this a combat spell? It's not like you have time to open up negotiations. Spells like that typically have a very long, possibly indefinite duration for a summoned creature to complete some elaborate task. That would be a serious nerf to this spell, possibly making it nigh useless. Maybe you can find some compromise wording like that the summoned creatures are friendly to and inclined to help and defend the caster, but will do so in the manner they choose.

It's not a combat spell, no. It has a 1 hour duration, it's unlikely anyone would choose to cast it in combat unless surprised.

That said, "the Pixies do what the DM wants them to" doesn't balance things at all. Most DMs will want them to throw around their spells in some fashion, whether that means annoying the PCs or contributing to the combat, and any such use is going to be inherently unbalanced due to the spell levels involved.

[Knaight]

That's not my quote Knaight. Put the wrong name up there.

Sorry about that. It's fixed.

[Psikerlord]

They're also friendly to you. Your solution isn't a good one, it doesn't reduce the strength at all just adds complication and frustration.
Well naturally I disagree. It is the simplest, easiest solution - the DM simply decides how the pixies help. The player doesnt get to order them around, but still gets their help in some fashion. What's not to love?

[Eslin]

Well naturally I disagree. It is the simplest, easiest solution - the DM simply decides how the pixies help. The player doesnt get to order them around, but still gets their help in some fashion. What's not to love?

It keeps the same potential strength, but makes the actual strength you get out of it arbitrary. Imagine if the text for fireball said it does 8d6 but each time you cast it the DM can decide it does 4d6 instead.

[SharkForce]

And I'd rather fix an obvious problem by addressing the root, not the instance. The root problem is not that Pixies are OP; the root problem is conjuring hordes of creatures with SLA at the same level as the spell. As monsters proliferate, there will be other "glass cannons" with low HP and hence low CR, but the ability to do nasty SLA stuff while they live. Allowing hordes of those new monsters to be conjured with a mid-level spell will be just as broken.

and as I said, the solution to that will be to fix the CR of *those* creatures to something appropriate as well.

we should not break something that works fine (summoning, which works just fine for every other creature without breaking anything) so that we can ignore future mistakes and pretend like they don't exist. it's fine to acknowledge that mistakes will be made in the future, but the proper plan for that is to plan on fixing the mistakes when they are made.

banning pixies from summoning spells "fixes" the problem *when pixies are summoned*. it does absolutely *nothing* if the pixies are encountered in *any other scenario*.

in short, the problem still exists, whether the creatures are summoned or not. if the problem was from the summoning spell, then removing them from the list of options you can summon would fix the problem. what we see is that removing them from the list of creatures available to summon merely makes the problem less visible. it is still there, and it still needs to be fixed.

and that right there tells us that no, the problem is not with the summoning spell. because a fixed problem stops being a problem, and your proposed "fix" still leaves us with the exact same problem any other time these creatures are encountered. it reduces the frequency of encountering the problem, and that is all it does.

pixies being CR 1 creatures sounds a lot more reasonable. I'd say some playtesting is in order (I'm still a bit worried about some of those spells; sleep in particular), but it's much more likely to work out fine than CR 1/4 has.

[silveralen]

I think 1/2 or 1 is about right. If you remove polymorph it could be fine as is.