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attevil
2015-01-21, 10:55 AM
The hit point systems in most games are crude, mostly meant to be easily integrated into the rest of the game system. A good hit point system needs to have a balance between what can work with the game system, what feels realistic, and what is fun.

Character hit points simply being portrayed as a number allows for no detailed damage description, makes the interpretation of what those points represent difficult to explain, makes healing easy albeit unrealistic, and doesn’t allow combat attacks to be fun since the attack translates into only a number.

Many video games use a hit point system to manage character health. Once the character’s hit points reach zero, they die, as seen with, for example, Dungeons & Dragons character hit points. Sometimes these hit points are represented with hearts or other art that doesn’t resemble numbers, but these are merely different representations of the same system.

Some games use a life system, giving the character a single hit point, but allowing the player to play the character again after death for a set number of times, as seen in the video game Mario Brothers.

The Mario Brothers life system is an endless battle in Valhalla for the player or a Hades-style punishment for Mario, repeating the same level forever. Life systems never made sense to me in gaming since the whole dread of death, the very power that surrounds it, is its permanence and irreversibility. The origin of the lives hit point system is actually more abstract—it was made to give a player three tries, per quarter spent, to see how far he or she could get in an endless game. The players hoped to get a high enough score to be placed on the arcade game’s top score list. Since arcade games are less popular now and console games don’t require quarters, the life system is used less, replaced by a D&D-style hit point system.

The D&D-style hit point system can often become a battle of number attrition: weapon attacks, magic missiles, and fire balls are all mostly numbered hit point subtractions. Hit point systems lack a description of damage. In video games, there is a health bar that gives the player an indication of health, but in role-playing games there isn’t any indication; usually the monster’s and other character’s hit points remain secret. This can leave players guessing as the status of the combat. Often I have seen players searching their character sheets every round for something to change the flow of combat. The White Wolf system has only a few hit points and a description of each character’s wound state, which could easily indicate the health status of a character. An optional rule for some role-playing games is the use of critical hit cards, only used when an attack is especially great. These cards provide story flavor and damage descriptions for a combat attack.

D&D in its 3rd edition introduced a nonlethal addition to its hit point system. Nonlethal damage accumulates and when the character’s current hit points minus the nonlethal damage equals zero, the character goes unconscious instead of dying. This was probably introduced because Shadowrun’s stun and health systems became popular. This does offer a bit of realism to combat, as there weren’t many rules for knocking someone unconscious or subduing them.

The downside to the Shadowrun and White Wolf health systems is the negative modifiers. Unlike other hit point systems, these games will give a character more negatives to their action rolls with the more damage they take. While this is realistic, it isn’t fun. Many players “accidently” forget to add the negative modifiers to their dice rolls and some groups do a house rule that throws out the negative modifiers all together.

Another problem with hit points is deciphering the mystery of what these points translate to mean in reality. The accepted interpretation is that they are a combination of a character’s ability to evade life-threatening blows and minimize them into smaller wounds, and the combination of wounds eventually kills the character. The older Star Wars role-playing game used a two-hit point system: vitality points acted as the character’s ability to evade significant damage and body wound hit points were received after the vitality points reached zero. The downside to this system is that it doesn’t provide a way to use nonlethal damage.

All of the above hit point systems have unrealistic healing. Magical healing is so widely used now it’s expected by players, mostly because it is more fun to drink something and get back into the action rather than wait for a month of rehabilitation to enter into another life-threatening combat.


Cyber Run Health System
Cyber Run is a table-top science fiction RPG set in the future. We didn’t remove numbers from the health point system, but tried to reinterpret them differently to find a better balance between what is real and fun.

What Hit Points Represent
Character hit points represent how many wounds a location of the body can take before it is unusable and life-threatening.

How Damage is Described
All damage is assigned to a location on the body; critical hits and special damage types add greater detail.

Managing Subdue Damage
Subduing characters is based on their energy, or vitality points. Once the character has reached zero vitality points they no longer receive any combat bonuses. Negative vitality points will eventually make the character pass out.

Slightly More Realistic Healing
Wounds can be treated and healed with futuristic medicine relatively quickly. A disabled body part requires surgery and recuperation time. The character could enter combat again with a limp or an arm in a sling.

The Mental Side of Combat
We provide two measures to represent the mental challenges of combat. Positive Morale points give a character a bonus to combat attacks. Negative Morale points give them an overwhelming compulsion to run. Sanity wounds can occur during combat for someone who is not hardened to violence; enough sanity wounds and a character will break down and run away from combat.

Follow the Development of Cyber Run
http://cyberrun.grumpogames.com/ (http://cyberrun.grumpogames.com/)

Read more Articles
http://grumpogames.com/blog/game-hit-point-systems/

jqavins
2015-01-21, 01:02 PM
WADR, I've seen lots of attempts to make wound/hit point systems more realistic and still playable, and thus more fun. I've yet to see one succeed. Wound placement in particular never seems to work. Players need to keep track of damage to each limb, the torso, and the head (or something like that) and every successful attack requires an additional die roll. It always fails, or at least, it has always failed in the past. Having separate health and vitality points is an additional bit of bookkeeping and an additional bit of attack resolution. When this sort of thing is done in a video game, it's fine because the computer does all the work, but in a paper and pencil game it's really hard to get a good system. Attempt after attempt has led to settling for good ol' hit points.

As for describing the effects of combat, nothing in the D&D hit point system prohibits that. I and other DMs frequently give descriptions like "The orc is scratched and bleeding a little," "The orc is getting pretty bloody," and "The orc looks sliced to ribbons and it's a wonder the thing is still standing." That doesn't go very far toward realism, but at least it gives the players a peek at the monsters' health bars.

Is it possible to find the golden balance between realism and playability? Maybe, but I think it's a grail quest. I hope you've succeeded, but I'm (obviously) skeptical.

attevil
2015-01-21, 01:38 PM
Players need to keep track of damage to each limb, the torso, and the head (or something like that) and every successful attack requires an additional die roll. It always fails, or at least, it has always failed in the past. Having separate health and vitality points is an additional bit of bookkeeping and an additional bit of attack resolution. When this sort of thing is done in a video game, it's fine because the computer does all the work, but in a paper and pencil game it's really hard to get a good system.

Hey jqavins thanks for your reply, there wont be an additional die roll in the current system, but I can understand your concern. The hit points for each limb will be very small having quick combats so the player wont be managing 6 hit points pools instead of 1. I am concerned with the book keeping of the vitality points, which like you said for a video game is fine, but less fun for players to upkeep. I'm open to ideas for managing character energy.

DedWards
2015-01-22, 08:31 AM
Hit point has always been and always will be debated on. The less one needs to keep track of something and the less math intensive keeping track of it, is the ideal way to go (for most people I know), but the more simple it gets, the less realistic it gets. Finding the correct balance will be a nigh impossible task. That said, my group has been playing Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition for a long time now and I kind of like the damage system it uses. It may not be realistic, but it is easy to use.

attevil
2015-01-22, 08:59 AM
That said, my group has been playing Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition for a long time now and I kind of like the damage system it uses. It may not be realistic, but it is easy to use.

Yeah, M&M isn't bad, but like D&D it can have some long combats, I would like to make combat much faster and exciting. There are exciting times in combat, but there are lots of times the players are searching their character sheets or phones or drawing, waiting for soemone to tell them its their turn so they can roll a die for another attack.

jqavins
2015-01-22, 11:37 AM
Yeah, M&M isn't bad, but like D&D it can have some long combats, I would like to make combat much faster and exciting. There are exciting times in combat, but there are lots of times the players are searching their character sheets or phones or drawing, waiting for soemone to tell them its their turn so they can roll a die for another attack.
Quite so, and that is exactly why any added complexity at all usually backfires; if it takes all players and the DM "just a few" extra seconds for each attack then in a large combat it can easily add up to an extra minute or two between one turn and the next for a given player. That's the sole advantage of the D&D super-simple-but-super-unrealistic system (just one pool of points, no hit locations, often no DR or multipliers) but it's a great big advantage.

I'd like to see a table-top, face-to-face RPG where paper and pencil are replaced by tablet and stylus. Then we could have a better hit point system and let the computers do the work. It'd also relieve the DM and players from things like counting out the rounds for temporary effects, making sure to account for all the correct modifiers for each roll, etc. But that's a big software development to get it all inclusive and perfect, and everybod has to have the hardware.

attevil
2015-01-22, 12:05 PM
I'd like to see a table-top, face-to-face RPG where paper and pencil are replaced by tablet and stylus. Then we could have a better hit point system and let the computers do the work. It'd also relieve the DM and players from things like counting out the rounds for temporary effects, making sure to account for all the correct modifiers for each roll, etc. But that's a big software development to get it all inclusive and perfect, and everybod has to have the hardware.

That is totally possible, it could be an app or online and everyone is part of the same session, I wanted to develop tools that do exactly that, for the very reason that if players dont have to think about the math they dont care what is going on behind the scenes. There is something out there that does enough of it that you could switch to their system and I think that is the direction everything is going toward, its just a matter of time.

jqavins
2015-01-22, 12:42 PM
That is totally possible, it could be an app or online and everyone is part of the same session, I wanted to develop tools that do exactly that, for the very reason that if players dont have to think about the math they dont care what is going on behind the scenes. There is something out there that does enough of it that you could switch to their system and I think that is the direction everything is going toward, its just a matter of time.
I know there's stuff out there. As far as I know none of it is completely perfect yet; perfect in that every temporary, semi-permanent, and permanent modifier is accounted for and handled correctly every time, including unique and homebres features being handled reasonably painlessly, etc. A system that handles most of it can be worse than no system at all, since you come to rely on it and then it lets you down.

Also, and here's where it gets expensive, my vision has a 10" tablet for each PC, even if players may have more than one, at least one for the DM, another one or more for maps, and about 5 more that are loaded with digital editions of all the relevant rule books. So about 10 to 20 tablets at the table. (They don't all have to be up to date high end models.) Finally, dice with embedded gravity sensors and NFC communication so that players can roll physical dice that are read by their tablets.

And it's all doable and will probably be done. It'll still be more than a few years before it's affordable to most gaming groups.

After that, we get all this equipment tied in to the holodeck computer so the setting and the action are shown life size.:smallbiggrin:

attevil
2015-01-22, 09:34 PM
I know there's stuff out there. As far as I know none of it is completely perfect yet; perfect in that every temporary, semi-permanent, and permanent modifier is accounted for and handled correctly every time, including unique and homebres features being handled reasonably painlessly, etc. A system that handles most of it can be worse than no system at all, since you come to rely on it and then it lets you down.


Yeah I agree sounds all good, the microsoft table surface, also allows for some good use of miniatures and maps and even referring to some of those books for the players