Find Familiar Questions

[Kryx]

Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can’t attack, but it can take other actions as normal.
When the familiar drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. It reappears after you cast this spell again
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar’s eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.


Can the familiar communicate telepathically with you? Or only you communicating with it? If it can communicate telepathically back that essentially give players a perception check at advantage and many other things. ("through the eyes" situation is understood though)
Can a familiar take the help action? I know there was previous debate about this topic. It seems strange to me that all wizards essentially give free advantage to the next attack. If anyone can link any good debates about this I'd love to read them.
What is your ruling for how the familiar appears? If it is a Celestial rat do you rule that it looks different from a normal rat? Fiendish cat?

[MinaBee]

1) Here's how I play it: Familiars use the stat block of the creature they take the form of, except that they are not Beasts, instead they are Celestials, Fey, or Fiends. Since none of the familiar animals are proficient in any languages (by the stat block), familiars only know the language of their creature type. If the caster and the familiar share a language, they can communicate back and forth in that language, express abstract ideas and such. If the caster and the familiar don't share a language, then the most the player gets is an empathetic link. They get emotions, and basic feelings and concepts.


2) Yes, but within reason. I would ask that the player provides a narrative reason to justify the Help action having any effect.

(By way of example, letting me know that your familiar is looking out, and checking corners, and is communicating with you about your surroundings during a walk down a dungeon hallway: excellent, you can make your Perception check to see that trap coming at advantage.)

[Kryx]

1) Here's how I play it: Familiars use the stat block of the creature they take the form of, except that they are not Beasts, instead they are Celestials, Fey, or Fiends. Since none of the familiar animals are proficient in any languages (by the stat block), familiars only know the language of their creature type. If the caster and the familiar share a language, they can communicate back and forth in that language, express abstract ideas and such. If the caster and the familiar don't share a language, then the most the player gets is an empathetic link. They get emotions, and basic feelings and concepts.

Empathic communication seems much more limited than "telepathically communicate" - though it does not specify how the creature communicates and due to the lack of intelligence I could see an argument for this.



2) Yes, but within reason. I would ask that the player provides a narrative reason to justify the Help action having any effect.

They are still able to provide advantage to the next attack every round. That seems very powerful for a ritual...

[hymer]

I'd expect familiars active in combat to get clobbered pretty soon, all the more so as levels advance and the familiar becomes an incidental victim of AoE attacks. Most adventure locations make it impractical to take recurring 70-minute breaks.

[Kryx]

Ritual is 10 minutes, unless there is some short rest limit to them.


Also I found what I was looking for from Crawford regarding what they know:

Brail @BrailSays
@mikemearls @JeremyECrawford @ChrisPerkinsDnD Owl familiar spying.It Cant speak common.How much would you let it relay to its master later?

Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford
@Brail4 @mikemearls @ChrisPerkinsDnD I allow a familiar to telepathically communicate simple concepts to its master.

[hymer]

Ritual is 10 minutes, unless there is some short rest limit to them.

No, rituals are +10 minutes to an existing casting time of 1 hour.

[Kryx]

No, rituals are +10 minutes to an existing casting time of 1 hour.

Right!

However I disagree with your statement:

Most adventure locations make it impractical to take recurring 70-minute breaks.

If that was the case then classes based on a short rest would be far less valuable. The game expects 2-3 short rests per day.

[hymer]

If that was the case then classes based on a short rest would be far less valuable. The game expects 2-3 short rests per day.

2-3 short rests and about 10 encounters. So it won't be there for most encounters. And when you spend your time casting instead of resting, you won't get the usual advantages of a short rest.
If the DM finds the familiar too useful (if you'll pardon the poor pun), it won't live past the second round. So even for the encounters where it's active, it won't be there for the whole of them. I don't think that's OP at all.

[Daishain]

1.) Depends on interpretation, 5E left way too much unsaid about the familiars. Communication of some type must be possible, but a creature of int 1-2 isn't going to be doing much of that. Telepathic communication bypasses all language barriers, but you wouldn't be able to send or receive much more than simple images, emotions, and concepts.

Personally, I greatly prefer to import a good chunk of 3.5's handling of familiars. Increasing intelligence and abilities paired with a creature whose mind is directly connected to yours. It leaves you with a partner in crime that is nearly as much of a character in the story as you are, as opposed to a glorified pet that sets of the paladin's divine sense. But that's not exactly RAW.

2.) Yes and no. In order to use the help action, the helper must be capable of doing the action to at least some limited degree themselves. Can a familiar help with spotting the kobold ambush? absolutely. Can they help with flinging that firebolt at the chink in the enemies armor? no

[Kryx]

Telepathic communication bypasses all language barriers, but you wouldn't be able to send or receive much more than simple images, emotions, and concepts.

5e does not specify how they communicate and to assume the bypassing of a language is a bit much by RAW or RAI - that's a homebrew based on 3.5.


Can they help with flinging that firebolt at the chink in the enemies armor? no

Can they take the help action to sufficiently distract said Kobold by crawling on his legs? My players will surely argue for it and not much could be argued back imo.

[Maxilian]

Empathic communication seems much more limited than "telepathically communicate" - though it does not specify how the creature communicates and due to the lack of intelligence I could see an argument for this.

These's a good question, having in mind that the Familiar can understand you, i would say that the familiar can also communicate simple messages so don't expect much, but it could help to warn you of danger, etc...



They are still able to provide advantage to the next attack every round. That seems very powerful for a ritual...

They can be easily slain

[Kryx]

They can be easily slain

I hear this as a common sentiment for a lot of things, but in my experience unless there is a fair amount of mooks then this isn't as true as it seems. It still absorbs 1 shot at minimum with a decent chance to miss.

Definitely worth the time if you have it.

[Dalebert]

Can they take the help action to sufficiently distract said Kobold by crawling on his legs? My players will surely argue for it and not much could be argued back imo.

Sure, but then a good chance it dies the next round. As a DM, I don't mind the (likely) expenditure of a familiar for the brief benefit, particularly at such an early level. Its odds of dying for this go up at higher levels. That's not just a cost of 10gp and 70 mins of your time. It's also the opportunity cost for all the other benefits the familiar provides until you have time to summon another one like scouting and delivering touch spells.

Do you have a problem with familiars because they can be useful? I don't mean to put words in your mouth so pardon if that's what I'm doing. That's just the impression I'm getting from the tone. Most spells are supposed to be useful in some way. Faerie Fire has a significant impact on a lot of creatures for a 1st level spell slot. Besides, I wouldn't really think of familiars as a spell so much as a sort of class feature by virtue of being on someone's spell list. Feel free to think of it as a once per short rest ADV + possible loss of action against enemies... maybe... that doesn't always work but that sometimes works more than once because you got lucky. And if you want to compare it to other "free to cast" rituals, think of Alarm, Silence, Leomond's Tiny Hut (OMG, LTH!). Maybe you should be upset about rituals in general. All of those can be cast in 10 mins vs. 70 for FF.

FWIW, I haven't seen them used this way so far. In my experience, people consider the opportunity cost high in most cases unless they're in a really desperate combat at which point they might just sacrifice the familiar for any benefit they can get. My warlock typically attaches the familiar to a primary martial character so he can deliver a Cure Wounds at range in a pinch. Outside of combat, they have made great scouts because most mobs (mostly. Mostly they come at night) most mobs don't pay much attention to them even if they notice them. I even used one to see what a basilisk looked like at the risk of my familiar getting stoned instead of me. It saved!

[Kryx]

Do you have a problem with familiars because they can be useful?

I'm just trying to understand the full implications of a poorly worded spell and how people play based on it. You know - another day on the 5e forums. :P

I agree with what you said about them being limited. I still think the minimum 1 help action to grant advantage is quite good, but it's probably fine. The 10g cost (which I think my player didn't notice, nor did I) will surely balance it out a bit


Most spells are supposed to be useful in some way.

Most spells typically consume slots. But as you said this is more of a class feature. That was my initial concern: free combat utility. My other initial concern was that it was essentially assumed to provide full information (ie: additional perception rolls at advantage) to the player due to the telepathic communication, but that isn't really the case. The rest of the rituals are fine: they are out of combat utility.

Familiar is fine as is now that I better understand how others treat it. (which is why I started this thread! :) )

[Kryx]

New Question (#3):

What is your ruling for how the familiar appears?


You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel.
Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.

I would also assume the celestial, fey, or fiend also makes it appear different (at least slightly) from a normal beast of that form?

Thoughts?

[RedMage125]

New Question (#3):

What is your ruling for how the familiar appears?



I would also assume the celestial, fey, or fiend also makes it appear different (at least slightly) from a normal beast of that form?

Thoughts?

It's a conjuration spell, right? Casting is an hour long process that involves burning something in a brazier? I rule that it appears in the summoning circle.

Arcane Trickster in the game I run just did this. Since he's an Eladrin, and originally from the Feywild, I allowed his familiar to assume the form of an animal he would have had as a pet in the Feywild, a Tressym (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tressym).

[Kryx]

I meant if he summons a Celestial rat do you rule that it looks different from a normal rat?

[Daehron]

My owl familiar frequently flies (using a portion of its 40' move) into the face of certain combatants, flap her wings in their face and generally harass them enough to lower their guard (give advantage on the next attack), then fly out of melee range (and preferably behind cover) using the remainder of it's 40' move (subtle flight means no AoO on the retreat).

She also frequently swoops into combat to deliver Cure Wounds, or Shocking Grasp, as needed. (Bard / Cleric / Wizard MC).

Given the vastly more powerful other members of my party, this is a minor bonus for my character.

[Shining Wrath]

1) I'd say telepathic means you share thoughts, so either the familiar shares your language or the communication does not require language, being at a deeper level.

2) Any familiar that tries to engage in combat can be targeted independently by any foe that cares to do so. Familiars are targeted by area effects unless they are explicitly protected somehow (e.g., inside the backpack).

[Dalebert]

I would also assume the celestial, fey, or fiend also makes it appear different (at least slightly) from a normal beast of that form?

Thoughts?

You could use that flavor in your game but I don't assume it and I don't know anyone who has concluded that. A wizard in our party is a tinker gnome so the DM allowed him to have a mechanical familiar. In all respects it's the creature, but it just have the flavor that it's a little mechanical crab (at the moment).

[Kryx]

I don't know anyone who has concluded that.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357446-Seems-familiar&p=6344663&viewfull=1#post6344663

summons a celestial, fey, or fiendish version of a small animal like a cat or snake

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18286782&postcount=5

If someone notices the weird looking animal (fey, fiendish, or celestial) they're going to squish it flat

Now you know at least 2. :smallwink:

How else could you possibly rule RAW? A celestial/fey/fiendish creature in the body of a beast?

[Shining Wrath]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357446-Seems-familiar&p=6344663&viewfull=1#post6344663


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18286782&postcount=5


Now you know at least 2. :smallwink:

How else could you possibly rule RAW? A celestial/fey/fiendish creature in the body of a beast?

Odd, because part of the fluff for fey at a minimum is that they are indistinguishable from normal creatures - you never know if that bird on the tree over there is a shapechanged fey getting ready to do something annoying.

[RedMage125]

Odd, because part of the fluff for fey at a minimum is that they are indistinguishable from normal creatures - you never know if that bird on the tree over there is a shapechanged fey getting ready to do something annoying.

I think he's distinguishing between a fey who is polymorphed into a NORMAL bird, and a "fey bird", being either a bird native to the Feywild or an amorphous fey spirit in the shape of a bird (which is not explicitly disguised, but rather, that is the shape it is assuming).

I would rule that celestial/fiendish animals have coloration differences similar to what was seen in 3.5. Fey animals would look very similar to their real-world counterparts, but colors would simply be brighter, more vibrant. A Fey Snowy Owl would have perfectly white feathers and bright golden eyes, a fey octopus might be a very vibrant shade of red or purple, etc.

In the above example I mentioned, the player has yet to describe the color of his tressym familiar, but I'm more or less leaving it up to him. he likes to Stealth, though, so I'm kind of expecting tabby gray or black, to be honest.

[Dalebert]

Okay, that's the first I've heard of it. I'm playing in several games and I haven't seen a DM fluff it that way. Like I said, the player wanted a gizmo familiar and the DM allowed it but that was a special case. The spell says they are a spirit in the form of an animal. Without saying any more than that, I don't assume any more. They take the form of the animal. They look exactly like an animal of that type. Could be fun to fluff it differently if you wanted, I suppose. It is a kind of nerf if you require it instead of making it an option because it makes it less stealthy in some situations and discreet scouting seems to be a primary purpose of them.

[Kryx]

It is a kind of nerf if you require it instead of making it an option because it makes it less stealthy in some situations and discreet scouting seems to be a primary purpose of them.

It would still be better than a rogue could do even if you took the celestial/fey/fiendish appearance interpretation.

[Dalebert]

It would still be better than a rogue could do even if you took the celestial/fey/fiendish appearance interpretation.

I don't think so, particularly not at higher levels and especially if the rogue took expertise in stealth. The familiar isn't all that stealthy, even the ones who have it as a skill. To my knowledge, 5.0 doesn't take size into account for stealth. The only thing the familiar really has is its potential to be ignored due to not seeming like a threat or a worthwhile food source, and the latter is even trickier because a lot of monster would just snatch it up and eat it despite it being bite-sized. :)

[Kryx]

I don't think so, particularly not at higher levels and especially if the rogue took expertise in stealth. The familiar isn't all that stealthy, even the ones who have it as a skill. To my knowledge, 5.0 doesn't take size into account for stealth. The only thing the familiar really has is its potential to be ignored due to not seeming like a threat or a worthwhile food source, and the latter is even trickier because a lot of monster would just snatch it up and eat it despite it being bite-sized. :)

It has tradeoffs. It can get in many places that a rogue couldn't do to its size. It isn't as sneaky, but if it gets caught then it's only 10g instead of a party member.

Plus the familiar has advantage on some perception types so their scouting info would likely be better unless the rogue focuses on it.

[richmuss]

It is seriously OP when used by a Warlock who picks an Imp as familiar. It's simply Munchkin heaven for power gamers.

It effectively gives the party an invisible, dark-visioned telepathic contact that can go anywhere, trigger traps, scout with effectively no cost.

Of course....the DM can find elaborate ways of countering its use if they have to but it is spells like this that imbalance whole scenarios IMHO

[richmuss]

It has tradeoffs. It can get in many places that a rogue couldn't do to its size. It isn't as sneaky, but if it gets caught then it's only 10g instead of a party member.

Plus the familiar has advantage on some perception types so their scouting info would likely be better unless the rogue focuses on it.

Pick an invisible Imp and the Rogues usefulness as a sneaky danger-avoider is completely useless. Spells like this annoy me intensely :smallfurious:

[JackPhoenix]

Begone, foul necromancer! Let the dead thread lie in peace!

[Trustypeaches]

It is seriously OP when used by a Warlock who picks an Imp as familiar. It's simply Munchkin heaven for power gamers.

It effectively gives the party an invisible, dark-visioned telepathic contact that can go anywhere, trigger traps, scout with effectively no cost.

Of course....the DM can find elaborate ways of countering its use if they have to but it is spells like this that imbalance whole scenarios IMHO
I mean the Warlock gives up a lot to use an improved Familiar: Ritual Casting, More Cantrips, Melee potential (if they’re a hexblade).

It’s also one of the Warlocks main class features, it should be strong.

It costs an invocation to communicate with your familiar beyond 100 feet, and if your familiar is triggering traps, then it won’t last very long, since it’s health doesn’t scale. They will also have trouble with many kinds of doors and natural barriers.

That said, it is still extremely strong, even outside of exploration. The Imp’s high persuasion, insight, and deception allow to “help” Warlocks with social interactions (TONS of fun RP potential). The imp is strong and intelligent enough to interact with objects, performing sabotage, using magic items, using other items like potions, cantrips, etc to support the team. This is on top of being the best scout in the game for at least the first 5 levels.

[Millstone85]

Do not feed the undead thread.

[richmuss]

Do not feed the undead thread.

The Undead...must feed

[richmuss]

I mean the Warlock gives up a lot to use an improved Familiar: Ritual Casting, More Cantrips, Melee potential (if they’re a hexblade).

It’s also one of the Warlocks main class features, it should be strong.

It costs an invocation to communicate with your familiar beyond 100 feet, and if your familiar is triggering traps, then it won’t last very long, since it’s health doesn’t scale. They will also have trouble with many kinds of doors and natural barriers.

That said, it is still extremely strong, even outside of exploration. The Imp’s high persuasion, insight, and deception allow to “help” Warlocks with social interactions (TONS of fun RP potential). The imp is strong and intelligent enough to interact with objects, performing sabotage, using magic items, using other items like potions, cantrips, etc to support the team. This is on top of being the best scout in the game for at least the first 5 levels.

Forgot about the 100' range, though it's not much of a penalty.

My attitude to the spell is probably influenced as much by DM style as anything.

Another spell i hate is Mage Hand.

Anything really that makes things too easy for a player, seems like a cheap get-out-of-jail-free card which is always available and can end up throwing storylines off at a tangent.

[Keravath]

New Question (#3):

What is your ruling for how the familiar appears?



I would also assume the celestial, fey, or fiend also makes it appear different (at least slightly) from a normal beast of that form?

Thoughts?

I wouldn't make that assumption. There is nothing at all in the spell or elsewhere to indicate that a celestial, fey or fiend familiar looks in any way different from the naturally occurring creatures. The spell says they take "the form of ... " not "the form of BUT something is different ... ". It would be up to the DM if they want familiars to look different but as far as I can tell it isn't RAW.

The same goes for all of the summoning spells where spirts are summoned that look like beasts. (e.g. conjure animals) ... the conjured creatures don't look any different from natural ones according to the spell descriptions.

[Keravath]

Forgot about the 100' range, though it's not much of a penalty.

My attitude to the spell is probably influenced as much by DM style as anything.

Another spell i hate is Mage Hand.

Anything really that makes things too easy for a player, seems like a cheap get-out-of-jail-free card which is always available and can end up throwing storylines off at a tangent.

Sorry ... but if creative uses of spells like find familiar and mage hand make things too easy for the players and throw story lines off at a tangent then you really need to work on your story lines. Mage hand is a defining characteristic of the arcane trickster rogue, it can be very useful but is in no way overpowered and if you are finding a creative player using it to be too much then you need to work on creative responses. Mage hand can make some situations much easier, in those cases, let the character/player feel good that they have the ideal resources to solve the particular problem and then move on ...



EDIT: Sigh ... I hate when I miss noticing a necro'ed thread and reply anyway ...

[richmuss]

Sorry ... but if creative uses of spells like find familiar and mage hand make things too easy for the players and throw story lines off at a tangent then you really need to work on your story lines. Mage hand is a defining characteristic of the arcane trickster rogue, it can be very useful but is in no way overpowered and if you are finding a creative player using it to be too much then you need to work on creative responses. Mage hand can make some situations much easier, in those cases, let the character/player feel good that they have the ideal resources to solve the particular problem and then move on ...



EDIT: Sigh ... I hate when I miss noticing a necro'ed thread and reply anyway ...

You are absolutely right of course... creative solutions on the DM's part are required. The problem sometimes though is what the DM thinks is a fine solution may p£$% everyone off :) Mage Hand can be annoying, but i never said it was OP. Creative solutions by the players are to be applauded, but default, no-risk, no-cost spells like Find Familiar can be are a pain.

First time here and failed to note what a necro'ed thread is... had assumed that only a closed thread shouldn't be replied to or commented on... My Bad....Soz :)

[Millstone85]

First time here and not sure what a necro'ed thread is... had assumed that a closed thread couldn't be replied to or commented on :)The post before yours was made in 2015. This thread was buried beneath hundreds others before you dug it back to the first page.

Threads should probably close automatically after a while, yeah. But well, they don't.