about those Good (aligned) dragons

[big teej]

Greetings Playgrounders,

Pre-emptive Edit:
it is worth noting, as I'm sure many of you are going to point me in this direction, that I do not currently possess a copy of the draconomicon, races of dragon, or anything else 'dragon' related.

second Pre-Emptive Edit: forgive me, I do tend to ramble through my trains of thought... there's a TL;DR at the bottom if you don't wish to wade through this mess. I'll even bold it for you guys :smallredface:

Spoilered at the end of this post is the email that prompted this thread, if you feel the desire to read it, by all means, it's mostly there as a point of reference for my initial train of thought, which I have hopefully cleared up a bit here.

I am about to start running 3 different dungeons and dragons campaigns. humorously (worryingly?) I anticipate all three campaigns to include dragons.

this thought had me pondering the nature and use of dragons in a.... well. certainly not typical, but in *my* game.

more specific to our discussion here. the use of Good-aligned dragons.

they're nifty critters, look at that spiffy artwork in the monster manual (or your favored search engine)

they're fully statted out, reasonably well explained as far as how they behave/fight/lair/etc.

but... barring some shoe-horning.... it's all wasted space. your my "typical" adventuring party is at worst, neutral, and without fail has some character that serves as a moral compass for the rest of the group (provided the rest of the group is lacking one)

I'm not comfortable with the idea of good dragons as quest givers (because, why can't they do it?)
I'm not comfortable with the idea of good dragons as allies (because, again, a freaking dragon)

without belaboring the point. I'm giving thought to tweaking/removing/changing good dragons.

I'm essentially looking for advice and input on the potential ramifications/unforeseen consequences of some ideas I'm toying with
bold for emphasis

the first idea, which I am aware is not unique, but it's the first time such a thing has potentially cropped up in my setting.

is some form of Draconic War that happened somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 - 3 thousand years ago.

- this war was nearly an extinction-level event for all dragonkind (I intend to roll a d100 for each race of dragons, this will be the starting population of a given type of dragon in the setting, before the PCs go a slaying at least. a result of zero indicates that the branch of dragon is either extinct, or any survivors have fled to the outer planes)
- this war happened long enough ago that it has no bearing on the day-to-day world of non-dragons
- this war happened recently enough that all of the 'common' races are aware, with a fair degree of accuracy, what went on during this war
- this war happened recently enough that the oldest of dragons are in fact survivors of the conflict.
- this war only ended when dragons realized they were driving themselves to extinction and ended hostilities. (via an as yet unnamed 'treaty' or 'conference' or something or other. basically all surviving dragons bought into a binding agreement that they would never in any way shape or form seek the destruction or harm of another True Dragon)

returning to my original query
so... what to do with good-aligned dragons?

here are the general ideas I've had so far (I'm percolating on a number of iterations/varations of them, but these are the main points.

A) Good Dragons never were
- in short, with this explanation, "Good" Dragons never, in fact, existed, all dragons have always been Evil or Neutral

B) Good Dragons no Longer Are
- since the war, Good Dragons have experienced an alignment shift to join their chromatic brothers as Evil/Neutral

C) Good Dragons are Gone
- the war destroyed all Good dragons (or at least caused them to flee to the outer planes)
* this is my least favorite idea, cause it means I still cant use them.

D) Good Dragons are besties with their enemies
- Good Dragons willingly (well, sorta) work with Chromatic Dragons in the name of Mutual Defense.
- All dragons have had their priorities effectively (if not literally) reduced to Survival, Breeding, and Amassing wealth (because dragons). in that order.



so after consulting the Monster Manual, I thankfully don't have the problems I recalled having with good-aligned dragons.

in short, I had misremembered their behavior effectively being described as similar or on par with their evil counterparts. leading me to question why they'd be listed as good in the first place.... sort of like another "good" creature (cough. elves. cough)

anyway.

I do not have time to type out my full thoughts on this matter, as I found out at work today that my schedule has been changed so that I need to be at work at 8 am tomorrow. but I still wanted to get the wheels turning on a close examination of a few ideas I'm having.

the first is adding a piece of history to my setting, a piece of history that I am given to understand is common to several continuities, but new to my own, and thought up without consulting other sources.

the idea of a Draconic War - a cataclysmic event that nearly drove dragon-kind to extinction. (and I mean "nearly to extinction" as in I'm rolling a d100 for each breed of dragon to see how many of them are left. a 0 either means that brand of dragon is extinct, or any survivors fled to the outer planes, but either way there are NO dragons of this type in the world)

the war happened somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 - 3 thousand years ago. long enough ago that the landscape has settled since then, but recently enough that the common races are aware, with a fair degree of accuracy, of what went on in the war, and that the oldest living dragons are actually survivors or this war.

this got me thinking about what to do with good-aligned dragons, they're perfectly good critters, even though the fairly arbitrary nature of some of their abilities (many good dragons have nonlethal abilities) are fairly 'meh'. I feel that good aligned dragons are kind of.... bland... and detrimental to verisimilitude.

what does an evil dragon do?
it pillages, it burns, it steals, it kills, it becomes a quest! LET US SLAY THE DRAGON


this is good! this feeds the game in a healthy way, it gives the players things to do, or flee from

what does a 'good' dragon do?
based on the descriptions.... not a whole lot. or at least, not healthily. if these dragons are such paragons of good and righteousness (as they are occasionally described) why are *they* not out dealing with the evils that adventurers earn their bread-and butter slaying?

why are they not constantly seeking out their evil counterparts? seeking to end their tyranny and terror? (as a paladin would do to a blackguard?)

why? because then the party gets to sit there and play cheer leader to this powerful thing doing all the work for them, taking all the credit, and generally being more awesome than they are because "screw you guys, I'm a freaking dragon."


this poorly stated train of thought has led me to 2.5 different ideas on how to handle good-aligned dragons in conjunction with the idea of a near-extinction draconic war.

A. that good dragons are not.
meaning that the "good dragons" are actually not/never have been/are no longer Good-aligned. the draconic war was caused by greed, and it only ended when the oldest dragons realized they were driving themselves to extinction, thus they all agreed to divvy up the world into, certainly not equal, but appropriate, portions and leave each other alone. concerning themselves with repopulating, survival, and amassing wealth.

B. that the good dragons were exterminated during this war.


and a half - the good and evil dragons came to a truce, and, in the interest of continued draconic survival, are all allies, whether they like it or not. they stay out of each others way except called to defend another dragon (from say a group of adventurers) this reduces ALL dragon's concerns to Survival, Breeding, and Wealth. in that order.


this is just a rough outline of what I"m thinking about (there are several more iterations and variations of what to do with good dragons) but I"m hoping it's enough that you can kinda see where I"m headed and get the gears turning on how good/bad an idea this is, the ramifications for a dnd game, and any unseen consequences on my part.


for this email however, I feel the draconic war idea was stated thoroughly enough for discussion... so what, if any, thoughts might you have on there being such an event in history? as a player?




TL;DR
what potential consequences/unforseen rammifications am I looking at for making all Good-aligned dragons either
A) No Longer Good
B) Never Were Good
C) No Longer Exist
D) are at best "Neutral" due to a mutual protection agreement amongst Dragonkind
E) other iteration/variation/combination of the above factors.

I really gotta find a way to ask these questions faster.

[black-jack]

Read up on Xorvintaal in Monster Manuel V. There's a couple threads about it on here, but it sounds like just what you're looking for without modifying good dragons at all. It allows you to quest for good dragons as a pawn in their game, or against them as a quest for another dragon (the quest-giver could even be another good dragon!) Your war and treaty background is perfect for this type of setting.

[Honest Tiefling]

Perhaps the war or the conference has something to do with dragons. Good dragons were incensed that while their kind were being murdered, their eggs broken before they could be hatched and their bodies harvested for materials...Those who worshiped Bahamut did nothing, claiming to be helpless. Those aided by dragons in the past did nothing but stand by. Those who swore to serve the side of good said they had other battles to fight. Or perhaps the dragons are mad at mortals who did something, but in their eyes were so vastly incompetent or thoughtless to be useless or a downright hindrance. After centuries of bitterness, loss and despair...What would this dragon do if another one of these hairless monkeys wandered into its cave? Would it prove to be any different from its ancestors? Or is the entire race flawed? Why risk centuries of life for such a useless race that you're not even sure why it was created?

Perhaps these dragons prefer not to get involved in conflict because their numbers are so far. The humans are already involved, by their own choice. They'll survive, they always have. But the dragons have lost so much, and have yet to regain it. A dragon might not be willing to risk itself, knowing if it did so no one would be around to take care of their mate, their clutch. Because everyone else has died and is gone forever. If they die, so does their family with no one to protect them. The humans ask too much of a race that has lost nearly everything.

Maybe the dragons aren't even dead. Maybe those who fought too much in the conflict were exiled or the victims of magic so great it caused the dragons to set aside their differences. But the dragons don't know what happened to those members of their race, their own families. They are devoted to retrieving them, utterly. They have no time for the struggles of others, they have to rescue their kin who might be undergoing who knows what. They could even have been sent to the Far Plane...

Perhaps the bitterness is deeper, more personal. Perhaps while no one came to the aid of the good dragons, plenty flocked to the hollow promises of power and riches the evil dragons offered. When Tiamat told her followers to aid her, they did. Maybe there was a betrayer a traitorous human or other mortal race that causes the downfall of the good dragons just as they were about to win. It was only one mortal, but even the goodly dragons have difficulty overcoming their grief and rage at seeing their kind massacred because of that one mortal. The wisest of their kind decide to remove themselves from the mortal races lest they give in to this rage, and watch over the remote areas of the world, away from all mortal races that have causes them such pain.

Maybe the evil dragons won. But Tiamat is not happy with the mere extinction of the good dragons, she doesn't want to just stab Bahamut, she wants to see him scream in agony as she twists the knife. She had her evil dragons stop just at the brink of victory, and spared only tiny portions of the good dragons. But every good dragon that was spared was spared for a reason. Those who had given in to grief, to anger. Those with the littlest bit of evil already in their hearts were spared while paragons of good died on the battlefield. Tiamat intends to sway all dragons to evil and watch Bahamut suffer as his children fall with the utmost glee.

[big teej]

for clarification, because look at that wall of text I posted. bleh.


I'm essentially seeking information on two fronts (for now)

A - is there anything wrong with this idea? (removing/changing Good-aligned dragons in some fashion)
B - if there *are* things wrong with it (balance/story/whatever) what are they?

Not, as tiefling has focussed on, how this situation came about.
(don't get me wrong, that information you put there is getting filed away, analyzed by a team of monkeys, and likely showing up somewhere in a game. it's awesome :smallbiggrin: )


and if this was not clear in my OP, I suck, and I apologize :smallredface:

[DrMotives]

for clarification, because look at that wall of text I posted. bleh.


I'm essentially seeking information on two fronts (for now)

A - is there anything wrong with this idea? (removing/changing Good-aligned dragons in some fashion)
B - if there *are* things wrong with it (balance/story/whatever) what are they?



I have to say that as the DM, it's your world. If you do this and everyone at your table is happy, then great! You did an unexpected thing that was fun, and frankly that's what the game is really for. Rule zero also backs you up: When the DM wants to change to rules, the DM gets to do that.

As far as balance issues, there's lots of other good-alinged things you can use if you need powerful good monsters. Celestials & Coatls come to mind, but there's no real limit. It's not an MMO, so balance isn't much of an issue.

[jedipotter]

what potential consequences/unforseen rammifications am I looking at for making all Good-aligned dragons either


I think the best one, if you want to ''get rid'' of good dragons is to simply have them loose an old war. So there are only a handful left in the world. And they live way, way, way in the wild.



I'm not comfortable with the idea of good dragons as quest givers (because, why can't they do it?)


Easy. The dragon is too noticeable and attracts attention. Plus the dragon does not ''understand'' other creatures, so they can't solve a murder mystery to find an artifact in a city. And the easy, ''they don't have time to do it''. And always ''they want to help good, in general, and let the others grow in wisdom and power''.



I'm not comfortable with the idea of good dragons as allies (because, again, a freaking dragon)


Well, as the dragon has it's own life. So it's not like it will just heel and follow the characters around.

[Mando Knight]

Or, even if they live, are Good, and do not play well with Evil, they're highly intelligent fire-breathing flying battle tanks with lifespans an order of magnitude longer than nearly any player character race.

Whether mere mortals like it or not, dragons are alien. Why should they worry about mortals' petty tyrants or the rise of some necromancer with an over-inflated ego, when these myopic kings and their meddlesome "heroic" adventurers ruin their perfectly well-cultivated mountainside, in violation of ancient agreements etched in the very adamant bedrock at the site of their capital?

Have the dragons view the lesser races as petulant, thieving children. They have bigger fish to fry and these idiot humanoids get their greasy apish paws on every magical artifact they can find, whether or not they realize it's part of a bigger plan than preserving the kingdom.

[Chronos]

How about: The good dragons have always existed and still do, albeit in very low numbers like all the rest of dragonkind. They still hate evil dragons and refuse to cooperate with them, but they abide by the terms of the treaty and don't directly try to kill them. But they won't get involved when some plucky little bald apes start killing dragons, unless those curlish upstarts dare to try to attack good dragons as well as evil. Nor do they care much about humanoid activities which don't involve dragons: They'll maybe be hospitable to well-behaved guests, and perhaps give advice or lore, but won't give you any treasure to help you, or appear on any battlefield themselves.

Alternately, if you do want the metallic dragons to get involved and help the party, you can introduce a group of evil humanoids who are trying to finish off the good dragons. In that case, the dragons probably will be willing to offer payment to your party to help solve their little problem for them.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, as the dragon has it's own life. So it's not like it will just heel and follow the characters around.


Or, even if they live, are Good, and do not play well with Evil, they're highly intelligent fire-breathing flying battle tanks with lifespans an order of magnitude longer than nearly any player character race.

They make a mention of these two points at once in Draconomicon. A dragon may follow a party for a bit, run off to do dragony things and come back only to discover that the party is now 70 years old and quite out of adventuring range. Dragons do not have a human sense of time so a quick trip to them can easily span a decade, or more. They also do not have a human sense or priorities or morality; the big thing to remember is dragons are very unlike the other mortals races.

[Red Fel]

Plus the dragon does not ''understand'' other creatures, so they can't solve a murder mystery to find an artifact in a city.

Dragons do not have a human sense of time so a quick trip to them can easily span a decade, or more. They also do not have a human sense or priorities or morality; the big thing to remember is dragons are very unlike the other mortals races.

This, more than anything else, is an extremely valid point. "Good" does not mean "Good and human-like".

Dragons are beings of incomprehensibly long lives and incomparable power. They are at the same time the ultimate apex predator and the pinnacle of civilization. They are not like us. Saying that a Dragon is Good doesn't mean that he's Good in the same way that, for example, a Human or Elf or Half-Orc might be Good. Dragons are still monsters, just monsters of incredible power and intellect. They feel no moral qualms about killing to eat, because it's necessary for them to survive, even though they have to kill a lot to eat. They feel no qualms about hoarding wealth rather than sharing it, because it is in their nature, even if they are otherwise selfless and generous. They feel no qualms about killing insolent intruders, even Good ones, because they are naturally territorial; they might not be cruel about it, might even offer the intruder the chance to leave, but if he doesn't, he's lunch, and they don't lose any sleep over it.

Dragons don't generally see the non-draconic races as people. Good Dragons will recognize that these lesser races have feelings and desires, and a right to not be tortured or slaughtered brutally, but it's much the same as when we watch videos of sneezing pandas, or exceptionally clever dogs or birds. That's how they see us. And that's the point. They can be Good, and still be neither quest-givers nor allies. If a clever monkey came up to you and started signing that he wanted to be great and strong like the alpha, would you give him a quest? Or would you pat him on his head, give him a banana, and send him on his way? The Dragon won't help the PCs with their quest, won't give them assignments or serve as an ally, because everything is beneath him. It's not arrogance, it's fact; whatever adorably simple quest these primates are on will make no difference a century from now. Their monsters will all be dead, but the Dragon will remain. So why get involved?

Now, onto your original question: What would happen if Good Dragons: Were no longer Good? Well, you'd have an awful lot of Evil Dragons. Barring either divine intervention or the rarity of Dragons, you'd have to explain why they hadn't either demolished most of the planet or enslaved it. Were never Good to begin with? That means you only had Evil Dragons. Same issue as the first. No longer exist? Same issue as the first, unless Evil Dragons were never a thing either. Are hands-off due to some sort of Dragon treaty? Well, doesn't that force them to be questgivers? Since they basically can't do anything themselves, they'd have to act through intermediaries. On the plus side, it does explain the lack of total Dragon dominance.
As others have said, it's your world, you can do as you like with it. And certainly, a world with only Evil Dragons - or no Dragons at all - is a less morally ambiguous one, and one which doesn't raise the issue of "Why can't these omnipotent jerkwads do it themselves?"

[Segev]

I assume from your statements that you want to use dragons, primarily, as antagonists and/or monsters to be slain. Is that a correct assessment of how you want them to appear in your campaign?

[Honest Tiefling]

I think the only issue I could think of is their alignment, oddly enough. Either you need to make it clear that the alignment of the dragons has changed, or that you do alignment differently. Having a goody goody two shoes dragon working with a Chromatic in...A more questionable situation would probably be quite confusing unless you've communicated clearly or dropped a lot of hints in game about alignment. Or made it clear they're working for the other side.

If the players complain...Let them. Honestly if all campaign settings were the same, it'd be boring. As for balance, I don't really think dragons were accounted for as anything other then the occasional BBEG. So no, go right ahead, it seems interesting. Honestly, I enjoy the fall of good aligned characters, and well...This seems quite good and with plenty of reasons how it might come to be. If there is a well known war, it doesn't feel like it comes out of left field. Have the players encounter something in an old battlefield of this war as a hint of things to come.

[Telok]

You can do what I do, put a line in the setting notes that I give to the players that says "Dragons are not color coded for your slaying convenience. Any dragon of any color may be any alignment."

Of course I also break my dragons into three categories; least, lesser, and greater. The least dragons include all drakes, wyverns, dragon-turtles, and other dragon-like critters. The lesser dragons are the standard MM dragons with 3d6 Int and no spellcasting or SLAs, so just big color coded lizards with a breath weapon that like to hoard treasure. The greater dragons start with red great wyrm stats and 3d6+12 Int, get CL 20 on one caster list, and are then customized to fufill a plot or story role. They are supremely powerful handcrafted NPCs. And lazy. Really lazy.

[jedipotter]

This, more than anything else, is an extremely valid point. "Good" does not mean "Good and human-like".

The human-like part is a big deal. Most fiction has other races ''just like humans'', mostly for drama, but also so everyone can relate to them. Take the vast number of fantasy or science fiction races, and they are just like humans. It's rare to see the non-human point of view. But all you need do is add that and it's a huge game changer.

[Threadnaught]

I have two possible ways to include Good Dragons without giving your players any free power at all. And the Dragons can be Quest givers, because they need the PCs.

1: Xorvintaal Template, MM5, I started a world building thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389773-The-Board-(A-Xorvintaal-World)) on this with the main assumptions being low-magic and all Dragons have the Xorvintaal template. Link posted just in case you have any interest in expanding on it.
In addition to removing the Dragons' Spellcasting it grants friendly characters of lesser races a Template which gives them a power boost when they aid their benefactor.

2: Similar to Xorvintaal, but without any Templates. Dragons do not merely do stuff themselves, that's for the lesser races. The only time a Dragon actually does something, is when it's absolutely necessary as a giant magical flying lizard tends to attract a lot of attention, and it's hard to get things done quietly when the whole world is watching.


The best part of this, Good and Evil Dragons fight all the time, it's just that nobody really notices except the combatants. It's similar to how Elves are usually slow to war, on behalf of how long lived they are, Dragons live longer and they're incredibly ambitious. If they fight, either their life is in imminent danger, or they're about to lose their most valuable asset otherwise.

[Seruvius]

Well one way the good dragons can come in are ala Red hand of Doom as allies to be convinced to help with some big final battle and for each one that is not convinced the final fight gets that little bit harder with an extra wave of enemies or an extra chromatic dragon to fight or smth.

Another option is that while the big gold dragon could go and kill his rival, hed rather just chill on his horde of magical gubbinz and gold and it is far safer for him to send adventurers in his stead and a dragon doesnt get old by taking risks that can be avoided.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Just treat good dragons like Gandalf the Grey.

Old, mysterious, wise, and really just plain confusing when it comes to figuring out why they do what they do.

And they're oddly fond of looking like harmless, doddering old me.

...Great, now I'm going to be picturing all the LotRs movies with that in my head. Gandalf is dragon, good grief.

[LTwerewolf]

I'm unsure as to where the issue is really. Good dragons wouldn't want to leave their lairs for similar reasons as to why evil dragons would rarely leave their lairs. If they venture too far, their lair can be taken. Not only that, but assuming the two dragons are in the age category, it pretty much comes down to who has the advantage. Which would you say has the advantage: the dragon hiding in his lair surrounded by runes and traps and minions, or the dragon invading said lair which has no knowledge of the layout, number of minions, nor the contents of said traps?

Dragons, just like city-states of old have spheres of influence that they can control, and in a good dragon's territory you can bet evil dragons aren't going to be knocking.

[big teej]

I assume from your statements that you want to use dragons, primarily, as antagonists and/or monsters to be slain. Is that a correct assessment of how you want them to appear in your campaign?

it feels shallow to say it when you put it that way.

but....

yes.
:smallredface: :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

You could just give all Dragons a range of alignments regardless of type rather than having them all stay true to the type they're given in the Monster Manual. :smallconfused:

Or do the same thing that you do in order to have Dwarves and Elves as antagonists.

Or even have Metallic Dragons as possessing the freedom to choose their alignment while Chromatic Dragons have to rebel against innate programing to be evil, if you really want to have a divide there.

[Psyren]

I second "the good ones are rare, extinct or far away." You don't even have to explain it, it can be a mystery for your players to solve (if they care to.)

[endur]

In DragonLance (the original series of books), the good dragons are gone because their eggs are being held hostage.

In the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings, all of the dragons are evils.

Feel free to not have good dragons, or to have a reason for them not to be around.