How would you assault this city?

[Toilet Cobra]

You are the ruler of a small group of desert villages. One day, you hear that a new city has magically appeared out of nowhere on your territory's western edge. The people of this new town are snapping up your skilled laborers and caravans with outlandish promises of wealth and easy living; they are not interested in trading or negotiating with you and have in fact insulted you to your face. Your peers from neighboring territories are watching you for any sign of weakness. The time has come to deal with these interlopers!

The target city has 20' tall walls made of a magically toughened elven glass (basically stone) that features a sharpened lip around the edge (giving partial cover to defenders and injuring anyone who tries to grab the edge with their hands). You cannot see through the walls. The desert is relatively flat in this area, and a 50' tower in the center of the city gives excellent visibility for many miles.

The wall has four gates, one at each cardinal direction. In anticipation of you army's arrival, they have dug a 10 x 10 x 10 moat around the edge of the city and filled it with lava through unknown means. The lava has already cooled and hardened enough that men can walk on it, but anything much heavier than a man will break through the crust and plunge into the molten lava beneath.

Defending the city are about 35 human warriors, 20 halfling warriors, and five adventurers. They protect a few dozen noncombatants and a large amount of livestock within the walls. The humans and halfings have longswords, short swords, and short bows, and a generous stockpile of flight arrows. You don't know the approximate strength of the adventurers, but you do know that the best items they have are masterwork and the only spellcaster they have is a multiclassed oracle. You know that they have a gunslinger as well, but the other party members are unknown.

You have two hundred human warriors, all armed with longswords and short bows. You have five mutated beasts (stats as dire wolves) who obey your every command. You have one manticore and two criosphinxes who are loyal to you, but will not necessarily fight to the death. These adventurers have already killed one manticore in your employ. Due to the desert's relative lack of supplies, you have wagons, barrels, and chests, but no siege engines or ladders. You can tear apart your wagons and junk and make whatever you want with the wood, but you lack large solid beams and you don't have much iron or steel to work with. You have canvas tents, picks and shovels, a few hundred feet of rope, and twenty arrows for each man. You have twenty horses, used mostly for pulling wagons.

You're not sure how, but the inhabitants of the city have stockpiled a surprising amount of food and water, and can probably outlast you as it currently stands. You have amassed enough food and water for your whole army to last eighteen days. The nearest town is little more than a few huts and a tiny water spring two days' travel to the east. You control the surrounding area, but you've already rounded up all the fighting men and supplies you can scrounge.

Retreat is an option, but as long as this city stands you lose money, men, prestige, and credibility with your peers. You can beg your neighbors for help and they will come to your aid, but they will surely use this as an excuse to take your territory from you later. The desert itself is dangerous, and even if you do not engage in combat you may lose men each day to roving monsters and stealthy mutants, who smell the water you've brought and are eagerly awaiting a chance to get at it. So what would you do?

Edit: Thank you, everyone, for a lot of diabolical ideas! Things I'm probably running with:

Scorpion swarm/ snake bombs /mutants dropped into the city
Digging a trench to drain the lava
Netting the wall defenders and carting them off
Nighttime paratrooper raid to kill defenders and open a gate (and steal water, if they find it)
If that fails, attempt to pull part of the wall down with horses, wolves & charging flyers
Last but not least, Adamantine ballista bolt

I'm keeping dropping rocks and bio warfare in reserve in case things look really desperate, because keeping the city for yourself is important, and you have no means of repairing shattered elven magic glass. I feel like this plan is both effective enough to win and not so brutal that my players give up in the face of overwhelming tactical genius.

Edit2: Just ran the first day of battle, and it was super intense! The players pulled out some serious shenanigans. One thing we learned is that flight arrows suck for halflings with shortbows. But halflings in cover are really hard to hit for archers on the outside.

As per the suggestion of someone in this thread, I had my evil warlord locate and recruit a pair of desert druids. They're not very strong but just a little magic support really helped, especially with healing the sphinxes.

The attack came from three sides, the north, east, and south. The east got the worst of the monster's attention, and scorpion bombs really wrecked the melee characters and the halfing npc's (automatic damage, half damage from weapons). Several mutants got dropped in the city as well, but they got taken out pretty quickly. Lots of defenders got carted off by sphinxes and several more got knocked into negatives by the manticore's tail spikes- until it got taken out by a lucky round of halfing arrows and a gunslinger crit.

The north and south walls were overrun, but the pc's used a nasty trick to burst open the crust on the eastern wall's lava, basically stopping the largest rush of enemy soldiers in their tracks.

Next will probably be a running fight inside the walls while the pcs try to repel the soldiers that got in. The druids are healing up the sphinxes a bit so they can surprise the players and hopefully capture or kill more of them. The PC's npc army is down to about half strength while yours is still very strong. Things still in reserve: nightime air raid (to let in dire wolves), a tunnel being dug below the wall, ballista assault.

Final tally
Lost 1 manticore
Lost 20 soldiers
Lost 5 Mutants
Used up all my Scorpion Bombs

Captured 1 PC
Captured 9 enemy soldiers
Killed or incapacitated 15 enemy soldiers
Killed 1 npc ranger

Things I am hoping happen: My player in captivity (who has good Cha and diplomacy) convinces the Druids that he's on the good guys' side and recruits them for a jailbreak

[Honest Tiefling]

So...The people in the magic city need skilled laborers and craftspeople. They apparently have tons of food and water. Do I know why they won't negotiate? If they won't negotiate with me, will they perhaps negotiate with someone they think is double-crossing me? Do I have any particularly attractive sons or daughters? Because joining up with them seems like a better plan then fighting my neighbors, takes care of my clan better and snags a good spouse for a child I can then nag to give me grandchildren. I probably also hate my neighbors and have centuries of bad blood with them. I also might not want to kill my own clansmen.

Else, ask for help from a neighbor and be so utterly shocked when he happens to die in the midst of battle. Rinse and repeat until the invaders are weakened. Baring that, seduce their wives/husbands while they are fighting to turn the insult back on them, and perhaps get the spouse to do the dirty work for me.

I have sphinxes, and I also have a lot of horses. Both of which poop. So fling filth into the city until I have to retreat. It isn't like it costs me much if I can get the sphixes to toss it in from a distance. At the very least, I imagine this might weaken the forces for an attack. Once bodies pile up (allies or not) throw that in as well. Not like I'm likely to eat them anyway.

[Deophaun]

It's a city that's looking for skilled immigrants. So I give them skilled immigrants: double agents that will, on the appointed night, seize one of the gates and throw it open.

Of course, I would have done this before my army showed up on their doorstep.

[Erik Vale]

[Assuming Pathfinder due to Oracle]

Does the lack of supplies include alchemical supplies such as those to create Alchemists Fire or Acid? Do I have a chache of oil? Can I make grenades? Burst jars?
Could I access 1+ barrels of gunpowder?
Are there any mages in my employ?
Would it be possible to restart negotiations? Or possibly force the leaders of the city into a duel?
The walls are magical glass, what about the city?
At what height was the manticor killed?
Do either of my friendly Criosphinxes know the location of a Gynosphinx? Do I have a cache of lore/riddles/etc through which I could use the Criosphinx to bargain with the Gynosphinx?




My current idea is bombing the city, if it's wooden, just with flaming torches dropped from/by the Sphinxes, in order to try and force the inhabitants out or into a duel, which I'll cheat with by having a Symbol [Either pain, Stunning, or Sleep] carved into a hidden section of my armor which I can uncover and activate, having been placed there by a sufficiently wooed Gynosphinx, as part of my bargain with my friendly Criosphinx.

Hey, better yet, what am I?

Edit: Thinking on it, forcing them back to the bargaining table, and possibly joining blood by marriage might be the best option, thinking about it. But I don't see the players saying yes... Perhaps have the symbol of sleep ready so I can open with the Coup de grace.

[Alent]

I'd start by summoning a divinationist to find out how many wishes they have left, and who the Djinn is they're bumming Wishes from, and at what cost.

When they're out of wishes or aren't using wish related means, I use Shapesand to make pyramids several days travel away, then I send in a messenger disguised as a rival tribesman to tell the adventurers about the wealth available in the nearby pyramids that can be claimed by anyone who can solve the curse of the ancients. When the Adventurers leave and are gone just long enough to ensure victory, I disguise myself as the leader of the same clan that the messenger was disguised as. Then I use prestidigitation to cool the top of the glass wall while heating the bottom half. (If that's even necessary given the lava) When the glass wall explodes, I grease the whole town, have a manticore break the mantle on the lava on the side opposite me, and cast gust of wind on the defenders to push them in their own lava. When the Adventurers return, I'm long gone and most divination related attempts to figure out what happened will cause them to go kill my greatest enemy.

[Toilet Cobra]

Do I know why they won't negotiate?

They think you are a corrupt dictator, responsible for profiting from slave labor. They want to free the desert from you, specifically.


If they won't negotiate with me, will they perhaps negotiate with someone they think is double-crossing me?

They are gullible; you know most of what you know because a pair of spies snuck into the city by claiming to be refugees from your towns. However, one got caught and spilled the beans under interrogation, so their guard is probably up pretty high.


Because joining up with them seems like a better plan...

You actually offered them very good terms of alliance previously, but they have made it very clear that they will not even consider joining with you. It seems they want nothing less than to eventually tear down not only you, but your entire civilization.

The idea of fighting with pestilence is genius. Their oracle isn't powerful enough to cure disease yet.

[Erik Vale]

-Snip-

PF [Oracle], so no shape sand, and weight limits prevent you from doing that with presdigitation... Given we know the walls are as steel, I don't see that working anyhow.

But asking for a Diviner to see if they have a genie handy was a great idea, however you might want to leave the question open to more than Djini, as the earth varient could also be at play here, and a efreeti could be bound... The water type is less likely.

[jaydubs]

I'd modify the wagons to work as fortified shooting positions with equal cover to the walls. Then load my men onto them, and pull them within range of one side of the walls but not on the lava moat. Deploy men with shields to cover the horses. Most of them ready actions to fire against anyone who peaks their heads up. They're ordered to focus fire in order to outright kill anyone they fire at, to disallow healing, forcing an attrition war if the defenders try to use their own archers. Since the cover bonuses end up canceling out, 180 archers >>> 55 archers.

The remaining men put up a light ceiling with wood to protect them while they cut through the main gate with axes, or perhaps burning it down (shovels plus lava if necessary, since it's right there). The ceiling protects from anything that might be dropped or cast over the side.

Repeat the process with the other 3 gates, to prevent the enemy from knowing where we come from. During this time, the manticore and criosphinxes are used as scouts from above arrow range and as a mobile response force. If they defenders try anything unexpected, we pull back and re-evaluate. If the adventurers come out to fight, the manticore and criosphinxes lock them in space while our warriors swarm them.

After the 4 gates are down, continue using the flyers to scout enemy positions. Attack weak points en masse, possibly using wagon parts to build shields depending on how the defenders are deployed. Pay special attention to make sure the gate entrances or the inside buildings themselves are not trapped. Keep groups of warrior close enough to support each other with shortbow fire, but far enough not to be wiped by the same AoE attack.

Basically, make sure any engagement against the enemy involves all of your warriors (concentration of force). Avoid ambushes and traps by exploiting your more mobile forces (flyers) and proceeding with caution. Make sure you always fight on at least even terms (cover and such). Finally, adapt to changes in enemy tactics (obviously can't be described in a post). Manage to do that, and you should win any engagement by virtue of being the superior force.

*This all assumed the DM is running mass combat using the same rules as normal combat, just with numbers in the triple digits. Probably something to figure out in any case, before attacking.

[Toilet Cobra]

It's a city that's looking for skilled immigrants. So I give them skilled immigrants: double agents that will, on the appointed night, seize one of the gates and throw it open.

Of course, I would have done this before my army showed up on their doorstep.

Actually this already happened, but the mission was sabotage of their water supply. The mission was a success, but your agents were lost, and they had a generous stockpile of water to fall back on. They probably would have been better spent opening a gate, but I didn't think of it.


Does the lack of supplies include alchemical supplies such as those to create Alchemists Fire or Acid? Do I have a chache of oil? Can I make grenades? Burst jars?
Could I access 1+ barrels of gunpowder?
Are there any mages in my employ?
Would it be possible to restart negotiations? Or possibly force the leaders of the city into a duel?
The walls are magical glass, what about the city?
At what height was the manticor killed?
Do either of my friendly Criosphinxes know the location of a Gynosphinx? Do I have a cache of lore/riddles/etc through which I could use the Criosphinx to bargain with the Gynosphinx?
No mages, gunpowder, gynosphinxes, or alchemist's fire are available (you used to have an alchemist manufacturing poisons for you but he's gone now). The city is constructed of the same magic glass. You don't know much about the fight with your manticore, but you can safely assume that it would have flown away if it could. Your enemy won't open negotiations again unless you really beat them up first, or at least make them think their situation is hopeless.

They're not quite dumb enough for a duel, but even if they were you don't have anyone who can reliably take their best fighter. You are a lv 6 LN human aristocrat.

[Honest Tiefling]

You actually offered them very good terms of alliance previously, but they have made it very clear that they will not even consider joining with you. It seems they want nothing less than to eventually tear down not only you, but your entire civilization.

In this example, do I care more about my people, or myself? I can retreat back into the desert. My people might do well here. Heck...Have them lay low for a few years and come back with a face lift. With myself gone, another tribe will come and try to fight the city, weakening both.

[Alent]

PF [Oracle], so no shape sand, and weight limits prevent you from doing that with presdigitation... Given we know the walls are as steel, I don't see that working anyhow.

But asking for a Diviner to see if they have a genie handy was a great idea, however you might want to leave the question open to more than Djini, as the earth varient could also be at play here, and a efreeti could be bound... The water type is less likely.

Ah, PF only. Hmm... the Pyramid and fake adventure hook could still be used, it would have to just be built with different fabrication techniques. (edit: or be a TOTAL bluff taking advantage of their lack of knowledge of the region.)

He said "basically stone" in the OP? There has to be some sort of way to take advantage of that glass keyword and shatter it, tho'. It can't be that safe for even magically reinforced glass to be that close to lava.

Edit: Being an Aristocrat makes it sound like gust of wind is off the table, too. Will have to ponder that one for a bit.

[Erik Vale]

It might be a little hard to field triple didgets of men as one force through the city.

Also, add phosphoric gel to the list of things I want to know if I can make, as it can act as a pretty reliable trigger for explosions/barrels of exploding stuff.
Already answered.

[Toilet Cobra]

I'd modify the wagons to work as fortified shooting positions with equal cover to the walls. Then load my men onto them, and pull them within range of one side of the walls but not on the lava moat. Deploy men with shields to cover the horses. Most of them ready actions to fire against anyone who peaks their heads up. They're ordered to focus fire in order to outright kill anyone they fire at, to disallow healing, forcing an attrition war if the defenders try to use their own archers. Since the cover bonuses end up canceling out, 180 archers >>> 55 archers.

The remaining men put up a light ceiling with wood to protect them while they cut through the main gate with axes, or perhaps burning it down (shovels plus lava if necessary, since it's right there). The ceiling protects from anything that might be dropped or cast over the side.

Repeat the process with the other 3 gates, to prevent the enemy from knowing where we come from. During this time, the manticore and criosphinxes are used as scouts from above arrow range and as a mobile response force. If they defenders try anything unexpected, we pull back and re-evaluate. If the adventurers come out to fight, the manticore and criosphinxes lock them in space while our warriors swarm them.

After the 4 gates are down, continue using the flyers to scout enemy positions. Attack weak points en masse, possibly using wagon parts to build shields depending on how the defenders are deployed. Pay special attention to make sure the gate entrances or the inside buildings themselves are not trapped. Keep groups of warrior close enough to support each other with shortbow fire, but far enough not to be wiped by the same AoE attack.

Basically, make sure any engagement against the enemy involves all of your warriors (concentration of force). Avoid ambushes and traps by exploiting your more mobile forces (flyers) and proceeding with caution. Make sure you always fight on at least even terms (cover and such). Finally, adapt to changes in enemy tactics (obviously can't be described in a post). Manage to do that, and you should win any engagement by virtue of being the superior force.

*This all assumed the DM is running mass combat using the same rules as normal combat, just with numbers in the triple digits. Probably something to figure out in any case, before attacking.

I like this attack plan. The only small problem is that the gates are made of the same stuff as the walls and won't burn; they can be picked and shoveled down, though. It just may take a while. Otherwise it looks pretty solid!

[Erik Vale]

Do you have anyone who could break down a wagon to make it into 1 or more Ballista/catapults/other seige engines, and man them proficiently?

[Toilet Cobra]

In this example, do I care more about my people, or myself? I can retreat back into the desert. My people might do well here. Heck...Have them lay low for a few years and come back with a face lift. With myself gone, another tribe will come and try to fight the city, weakening both.

Your tribe aren't really loyal or smart enough to pull this off. The key difference is that you aren't really one of them; your main concern is your own prestige in your empire and the lives of your people second, and the people know that. Leaving the empire, even as a temporary ruse, is basically a lose condition given your main concerns.

Ideally, you want to resolve this in a way that lets you take the awesome magic city, any cool stuff that's in it, and enslave as many of the survivors as possible, so you actually end up more powerful than you started. It would give you a big advantage over your traitorous neighbors.

[Toilet Cobra]

Ah, PF only. Hmm... the Pyramid and fake adventure hook could still be used, it would have to just be built with different fabrication techniques. (edit: or be a TOTAL bluff taking advantage of their lack of knowledge of the region.)

He said "basically stone" in the OP? There has to be some sort of way to take advantage of that glass keyword and shatter it, tho'. It can't be that safe for even magically reinforced glass to be that close to lava.

Edit: Being an Aristocrat makes it sound like gust of wind is off the table, too. Will have to ponder that one for a bit.

The story of this place is that ancient and arrogant elves made stuff out of glass, then enchanted it so it would be strong as well as aesthetically pleasing. It is resistant to energy damage of all types due to the elves' enemies at the time casting a lot of spells, so the heat of the lava doesn't really bother it. The downside is that when the elves' magic waned, it became normal glass again and started shattering in the first sandstorm to come along.

So the desert dwellers, particularly the nobles, may be smart enough to know that if they find some way to strip out the magic of the walls again it can basically be shattered with the handle of your sword. Finding the means to do that will be tricky, as there are very few magic users out there for them to consult or buy items from.

[Toilet Cobra]

Do you have anyone who could break down a wagon to make it into 1 or more Ballista/catapults/other seige engines, and man them proficiently?

Definitely not proficiently; up till now, they haven't been needed for desert warfare as you know it. You might be able to build them, but with just wooden planks and not stout, thick beams, I wonder how stable/strong those siege engines can be?

[jaydubs]

I like this attack plan. The only small problem is that the gates are made of the same stuff as the walls and won't burn; they can be picked and shoveled down, though. It just may take a while. Otherwise it looks pretty solid!

If the gates are made of the same stuff, it might not save any time to go after the gates (they might even be the best defended spots). Put up the defensive scaffolds to both protect workers and to disguise your position. Try to determine how thick the walls are (they're probably similarly thick in most places). Then dig them out, putting up wooden supports to keep them stable. Once you have enough dug out, light the supports on fire and run, collapsing a large section of wall. If you're lucky, there will even be defenders on that part of the wall.

[Erik Vale]

Current plan:

Send some of the men home and ration the water, try to change my water situation so I have perhaps a month. If I need to, the Sphinxes can talk to animals, allowing them to locate any oasis I don't know about.

Every day, have my manticore fly high above the city, and drop cloth sacks containing the last days **** on the city, the Sphinxes flying escort and told to flee if they must... Possibly figure out how to also safely drop snakes, scorpions and other poisonous animals I can find in the process.


Have my men set up into four groups, one main group at gate [my choice], and three small groups.
The smaller ones just make sure no one enters/leaves through the other gates, if the enemy sallies forth, they retreat.
My main group, I give a ballista, preferably a heavy for range, or a gate breaker for damage. Have it pound the gate to dust as long as needed.

After 20 days of sitting in filth, or the gate's broken, have the manticore drop a letter, dictating fair surrender terms.

If my manticore dies, I'll build a trebache/catapult to do the poop flinging, it's inaccuracy won't matter.


Do note, prestidigitation can clean objects. For example, it could clean the poop, allowing the players to use it as fertilizer without the fears of disease. Give your players a high five from me if they do.


Are there any burrowing animals my sphinxes could find and convince to dig out the area under the walls? *Continuing with the dig out myself idea*

[Toilet Cobra]

note, presdigitation can clean objects. For example, it could clean the poop, allowing the players to use it as fertilizer without the fears of disease. Give your players a high five from me if they do.

Haha, will do. That'd be a longshot with these guys.

The only flaw in your plan was the ballista- building one at all will be difficult, as your people lack the expertise for this kind of warfare.

Edit: So far I'm seeing a lot of potential in poop warfare.

[Erik Vale]

Yes, I struck it out when I saw.


However, to the animal idea again, are there any large burrowing animals I could access through my sphinxes?


Edit: Figured out how to trap scorpions/snakes to drop them, once you've trapped enough, pad a barrel with cloth, slip them in, fill it with more cloth [leave some air space], close the barrel, then drop it. The cloth should allow them to survive the fall, and after having been contained so, and transported in such a manner, they should be sufficiently pissed to bight anything in their way.

[Toilet Cobra]

Yes, I struck it out when I saw.


However, to the animal idea again, are there any large burrowing animals I could access through my sphinxes?

I'm honestly not sure. Any animal in a terrestrial desert is available to you, and there's a long shot that you might find a dire version in the desert as well. You're a lot more likely to find a crazy mutated squid man and his ten buddies, though.

Edit: The dropping scorpions thing is ingenious, especially because without arcane magic or alchemy or anything, even small swarms of scorpions are going to be bad for them.

[Honest Tiefling]

Why am I not hiring THOSE people!?

[Erik Vale]

Ok, current plan:

Send some of the men home and ration the water, try to change my water situation so I have perhaps a month. If I need to, the Sphinxes can talk to animals, allowing them to locate any oasis I don't know about.

Have my men set out traps for venomous animals such as snakes and scorpions.
Every day, have my manticore fly high above the city, and drop cloth sacks containing the last days **** on the city, as well as trapped venemous animals in casks that are padded with cloth to ensure the survival of the passengers, the Sphinxes flying escort and told to flee if they must...


Have my men set up into four groups, one main group at gate [my choice], and three small groups.
The smaller ones just make sure no one enters/leaves through the other gates, if the enemy sallies forth, they retreat while firing from wagons pulled by horse. Probably 3 groups of 15, leaving me a group of 40+ and my beasts[Hopefully].
My main group, sets up entrenched positions out of bowshot [maximum range, not skilled shot range. Truestrike is a thing, so, that makes it around 1300ft/433 yards/396m.

With the first drop, and every 5 thereafter, I have a additional package dropped, dictating surrender terms, with instructions on how to come out to negotiate. Terms will get steadily worse. The package will be differentiated by having been dropped last by the sphinxes, possibly being a higher quality cloth containing it, or the cloth being dyed vibrant colours.

It may be worth trying to downsize some of the barrels.


While this is going on, I may send negotiators to bring more water and food for the seige, and perhaps use my sphinxes speak with animals ability to find any large rocks.

Do I have access to a quary? If so, I may be able to throw rocks at the wall/buildings from the sky over time, but they may be able to use those to reinforce the walls...

[Toilet Cobra]

Ok, current plan:

Send some of the men home and ration the water, try to change my water situation so I have perhaps a month. If I need to, the Sphinxes can talk to animals, allowing them to locate any oasis I don't know about.

Have my men set out traps for venomous animals such as snakes and scorpions.
Every day, have my manticore fly high above the city, and drop cloth sacks containing the last days **** on the city, as well as trapped venemous animals in casks that are padded with cloth to ensure the survival of the passengers, the Sphinxes flying escort and told to flee if they must...


Have my men set up into four groups, one main group at gate [my choice], and three small groups.
The smaller ones just make sure no one enters/leaves through the other gates, if the enemy sallies forth, they retreat while firing from wagons pulled by horse. Probably 3 groups of 15, leaving me a group of 40+ and my beasts[Hopefully].
My main group, sets up entrenched positions out of bowshot [maximum range, not skilled shot range. Truestrike is a thing, so, that makes it around 1300ft/433 yards/396m.

With the first drop, and every 5 thereafter, I have a additional package dropped, dictating surrender terms, with instructions on how to come out to negotiate. Terms will get steadily worse. The package will be differentiated by having been dropped last by the sphinxes, possibly being a higher quality cloth containing it, or the cloth being dyed vibrant colours.

It may be worth trying to downsize some of the barrels.


While this is going on, I may send negotiators to bring more water and food for the seige, and perhaps use my sphinxes speak with animals ability to find any large rocks.

Do I have access to a quary? If so, I may be able to throw rocks at the wall/buildings from the sky over time, but they may be able to use those to reinforce the walls...

You don't have anybody who can cast Truestrike for you, unfortunately. With such a small number of defenders, it would be a great way to whittle them down over a few days.

You do have a quarry of sorts, so getting some big rocks can be done. However, it is several days' travel both ways and you lack the strong wooden beams to make a catapult.

I'm not positive but I think an effective trebuchet might be possible with smaller pieces of wood.

[Erik Vale]

No, not a catapult, just the same manticore/sphinx flight combo dropping them. And true strike was something I was talking about on their side, I don't want them picking off my men with impossible shots, so I stay out of range [and entrench my camp].

Perhaps the men I send away can instead be used to ferry extra water and the stones. Create a little convey going past several oasis to the quary and back.

[Blackhawk748]

Why am I not hiring THOSE people!?

Seconding this, also you could use your "mutated animals" and some rope to topple the walls. Most walls are built to withstand force from objects hitting them, not from being pulled over. And honestly Dire Wolves have quiet respectable strength. The problem is attaching the rope to the wall. I would recommend several pitons with ropes tied to several of them, then use a few "wolves" to pull them over. This is best accomplished at night.

[Toilet Cobra]

No, not a catapult, just the same manticore/sphinx flight combo dropping them. And true strike was something I was talking about on their side, I don't want them picking off my men with impossible shots, so I stay out of range [and entrench my camp].

Perhaps the men I send away can instead be used to ferry extra water and the stones. Create a little convey going past several oasis to the quary and back.

Ohhhh I gotcha. I completely misunderstood both those points. Looks like the sphinxes have a light load of 200lbs, so they could retrieve several large rocks from the quarry and bring them back quickly enough. Even elven magic glass couldn't stand up to a 50 lb rock dropped from great height.


Seconding this, also you could use your "mutated animals" and some rope to topple the walls. Most walls are built to withstand force from objects hitting them, not from being pulled over. And honestly Dire Wolves have quiet respectable strength. The problem is attaching the rope to the wall. I would recommend several pitons with ropes tied to several of them, then use a few "wolves" to pull them over. This is best accomplished at night.

Another good plan! Between monsters and horses, they actually have quite a bit of strength available on the attackers' team. Maybe the sphinxes could work as a group to scatter the defenders away and give them time to lash hooks on the wall.

[Blackhawk748]

Another good plan! Between monsters and horses, they actually have quite a bit of strength available on the attackers' team. Maybe the sphinxes could work as a group to scatter the defenders away and give them time to lash hooks on the wall.

Wow, forgot i had air support there. Its so rare that i have it during sieges. :smallamused: The Manticore will make an excellent Air-to-ground support platform while the Cirosphinxs will be used for bombers, i personally prefer the swarm bombs so they should drop those.

[fallensavior]

You are the ruler of a small group of desert villages. ...So what would you do?

Control Winds and/or Earthquake...maybe some treants for the cleanup work. Druids are the best siege engines.

[Toilet Cobra]

Control Winds and/or Earthquake...maybe some treants for the cleanup work. Druids are the best siege engines.

Druids have all but fled the desolate wastes... BUT if anybody would know where one or two might be hiding in the desert nearby, it'd be you and your caravan agents.

A few good bluff checks connecting the crimes of the ancient elves to the guys who are currently rebuilding & living in an elven city, and you might get one or two on your side! I hadn't even considered this before but it's definitely worth a few rolls. Spells above 3rd level are probably out of the question, though.

[Borsek]

Send one wizard or sorcerer with locate city spell. That, or disjunction on the walls.

Or have the wizard enslave like 10 dragons and set the city on fire while slinging spells of the back of the biggest one.


If one wizard is not enough, send two.


Also, wizards aren't gone, ever. Just contact your favorite plane for assistance. 1-900-PLANE, press 2 for cataclysmic wizard help.

[Alent]

The story of this place is that ancient and arrogant elves made stuff out of glass, then enchanted it so it would be strong as well as aesthetically pleasing. It is resistant to energy damage of all types due to the elves' enemies at the time casting a lot of spells, so the heat of the lava doesn't really bother it. The downside is that when the elves' magic waned, it became normal glass again and started shattering in the first sandstorm to come along.

So the desert dwellers, particularly the nobles, may be smart enough to know that if they find some way to strip out the magic of the walls again it can basically be shattered with the handle of your sword. Finding the means to do that will be tricky, as there are very few magic users out there for them to consult or buy items from.

Hmm.

Does the divinationist I hire know Legend Lore? If so, does a casting of legend lore reveal critical weaknesses or backdoors in the spellcraft?

[Toilet Cobra]

Hmm.

Does the divinationist I hire know Legend Lore? If so, does a casting of legend lore reveal critical weaknesses or backdoors in the spellcraft?

Tbh as magic-poor as this world is, probably you won't be able to find one that knows a spell that high.

[Alent]

Tbh as magic-poor as this world is, probably you won't be able to find one that knows a spell that high.

Hm.

Describe the glass walls to me. Are they perfectly smooth and clear? Faceted? Frosted?

[Kimras]

Are you friends with any dwarves or anyone who could use magic to speed up the digging process? I would use their lava against them by digging under the city and using you wood to brace the tunnels till your ready then release the lava under the city sinking into a death pit. While your men stay on the outside killing any trying to escape.

[Toilet Cobra]

Hm.

Describe the glass walls to me. Are they perfectly smooth and clear? Faceted? Frosted?

The outer wall is made of dozens of opaque, solid, slightly curved, perfectly smooth panels of glass. Each one is 20' x 20' and joined to its neighbors at a slight angle to create the roughly circular wall. Although they are joined quite securely, they are no more solid than two stone walls fitted together.


Are you friends with any dwarves or anyone who could use magic to speed up the digging process? I would use their lava against them by digging under the city and using you wood to brace the tunnels till your ready then release the lava under the city sinking into a death pit. While your men stay on the outside killing any trying to escape.

I'm not sure how digging under sand works anyhow. They don't have dwarves to work with but they do have knowledgeable desert engineers, so I assume they can figure that out.

[RingofThorns]

Real quick, how much can the sphinx and the manticore carry? how much would you say one of your men with all of his gear weigh? Then you did say the things you have available to use included large amounts of sturdy canvas cloth and rope right?

[Alent]

The outer wall is made of dozens of opaque, solid, slightly curved, perfectly smooth panels of glass. Each one is 20' x 20' and joined to its neighbors at a slight angle to create the roughly circular wall. Although they are joined quite securely, they are no more solid than two stone walls fitted together.

*scratches head*

You mentioned earlier that they could be toppled by the mutants with enough work. How heavy are said walls, how securely are they fitted, and what are they fitted to? (besides each other)

Let me put that another way, What is the wall's CMD?

[Toilet Cobra]

Real quick, how much can the sphinx and the manticore carry? how much would you say one of your men with all of his gear weigh? Then you did say the things you have available to use included large amounts of sturdy canvas cloth and rope right?

A light load for the manticore is 133 lbs, for the sphinxes it's 200 lbs. Given that the soliders wear light or no armor, I would say that they can carry one guy each as a light load. The manticore probably couldn't carry an additional cargo, though. And yeah, you have plenty of rope and lots of tent canvas.



Let me put that another way, What is the wall's CMD?

I honestly have no idea how to calculate that. I was gonna use the stats given by a wall of stone spell of the appropriate thickness, and have the animals make some sort of combined strength check against it. The wall itself is not attatched to any other structure along its entire length, except for the platform that runs its entire inner edge and the pillars that house the gate-opening mechanisms. Each panel is securely fitted, but no more than two stone walls mortared together, so each joint is a relative weak point.

[RingofThorns]

Allright then I would have them start carrying men over the city so they can create a map of the city lay out. From there I would wait until night fall and cause a great big scene of attacking one of the gates, Fire arrows being shot, the whole nine yards. From there I would use the fliers and if you wanted some home made DaVinci style parachutes to start dropping men off at a certain designated point in the city. From there it would be a simple plan the men dropped off are to hold a single building or if enough of them are alive and there then they hold a perimeter. After you get enough men there you can start having them try to work towards a gate and get it open or just hold there and try and cause as much havoc as possible to ware down the defenders.

The whole dropping scorpions and snakes on the city is a pretty smart idea but let me ask, is there any way to capture some of the crazy mutated/monster things wondering around the desert? Because if you can figure out a way to drop them and not kill them that would just be loads of fun and chaos.

[Incorrect]

Pick someone cowardly and expendable. Tell them all about how you (the aristocrat) plan to go somewhere isolated, with only a few guards, at a specific time.
Then send the expendable into the city in disguise, with a mission to do whatever. (poison the water, burn the storage, steal some pies, etc.). Hopefully the guy is caught and interrogated by the adventurers. They will jump all over the opportunity to kill the enemy general, and walk right into your trap.


You live in the dessert, and know it pretty well? Can you with some degree of certainty predict the weather? What are the chances that a sandstorm will arrive and provide both limited visibility for the enemy archers as you close in, and a dramatic back-drop for the great battle?
It might hinder your fliers, but maybe your soldiers are better equipped to handle that situation than theirs are.


Glass walls.
I assume that magical glass have a very high hardness but low HP, it dosen't break easy, but when breaks it shatters. Can you send your fliers somewhere and buy a single adamantine arrow? :smallamused:
For cinematic reasons, make it a ballista bolt, and make a ballista from a few wagons.

[Toilet Cobra]

Allright then I would have them start carrying men over the city so they can create a map of the city lay out. From there I would wait until night fall and cause a great big scene of attacking one of the gates, Fire arrows being shot, the whole nine yards. From there I would use the fliers and if you wanted some home made DaVinci style parachutes to start dropping men off at a certain designated point in the city. From there it would be a simple plan the men dropped off are to hold a single building or if enough of them are alive and there then they hold a perimeter. After you get enough men there you can start having them try to work towards a gate and get it open or just hold there and try and cause as much havoc as possible to ware down the defenders.

The whole dropping scorpions and snakes on the city is a pretty smart idea but let me ask, is there any way to capture some of the crazy mutated/monster things wondering around the desert? Because if you can figure out a way to drop them and not kill them that would just be loads of fun and chaos.

That could be done. But the defenders will be taking shots at any flyovers the whole time, and even if the monsters are too tough for lv 1 warriors to harm, the men they're carrying aren't. It might be best to drop them off at the central tower- it has a balcony surrounding the top that would make good cover from below, and a few men could hold the narrow door while more men were brought in. Even if they can't expand outward to a gate, they might be able to help just by aiming down and shooting the wall defenders in the back.

As for the mutants, you could easily collect them because they are lured by the scent of water. Leave an open barrel out in the desert and you'll attract every mutant for miles around. Its been established in game previously that sphinxes are not affected by the venomous bites and blood of mutants, so they wouldn't be afraid to pick one up and fly it into the city.

[Toilet Cobra]

Pick someone cowardly and expendable. Tell them all about how you (the aristocrat) plan to go somewhere isolated, with only a few guards, at a specific time.
Then send the expendable into the city in disguise, with a mission to do whatever. (poison the water, burn the storage, steal some pies, etc.). Hopefully the guy is caught and interrogated by the adventurers. They will jump all over the opportunity to kill the enemy general, and walk right into your trap.


You live in the dessert, and know it pretty well? Can you with some degree of certainty predict the weather? What are the chances that a sandstorm will arrive and provide both limited visibility for the enemy archers as you close in, and a dramatic back-drop for the great battle?
It might hinder your fliers, but maybe your soldiers are better equipped to handle that situation than theirs are.


Glass walls.
I assume that magical glass have a very high hardness but low HP, it dosen't break easy, but when breaks it shatters. Can you send your fliers somewhere and buy a single adamantine arrow? :smallamused:
For cinematic reasons, make it a ballista bolt, and make a ballista from a few wagons.

Three awesome ideas. For the trap idea, it would have been a brilliant move to do earlier, but I think with the siege imminent and nobody else to hold down the fort, the players will be too reluctant to leave even for a decapitating blow.

Sandstorms: as it happens, it IS sandstorm season. They get one about every 3d6 days and it lasts for 1d3 days before moving on. The last one that blew through the area was about eight days ago so the next one could come any time. They are so violent that ranged attacks are all but impossible, as is flying. They cut visibility way down, too.

I love the adamantine ballista bolt. Getting a quantity of the metal would be difficult, but not impossible, especially if they could promise its return. And really, you just need to coat the tip of the bolt with it, right?

It might require a few favors and some time, but I bet that could be arranged. I might keep that as a good, climactic endgame move if the players let the siege drag on too long.

[Alent]

A light load for the manticore is 133 lbs, for the sphinxes it's 200 lbs. Given that the soliders wear light or no armor, I would say that they can carry one guy each as a light load. The manticore probably couldn't carry an additional cargo, though. And yeah, you have plenty of rope and lots of tent canvas.

I can't remember if there's an exception in PF for flying animals, but both are large quadrupeds, so you should be multiplying all carrying capacities by 3. 399 for the manticore and 600 for the sphinxes.


I honestly have no idea how to calculate that. I was gonna use the stats given by a wall of stone spell of the appropriate thickness, and have the animals make some sort of combined strength check against it. The wall itself is not attatched to any other structure along its entire length, except for the platform that runs its entire inner edge and the pillars that house the gate-opening mechanisms. Each panel is securely fitted, but no more than two stone walls mortared together, so each joint is a relative weak point.

Actually, strike where I was going with that. I was thinking to have the fliers swoop in and use the bull rush rules to topple the walls from the inside, but they're one size category too big for large creatures to use the bull rush maneuver, so they'd have to just strength check it. (The assumption was that as a free standing unit that the walls can be treated as an unattended object of gargantuan size for the purpose of combat maneuvers.)

Same idea, with strength check substituted:

Build arrow barricades. These are just wooden frameworks with as many layers of cloth as you can layer up and still carry. Have your men march in towards one wall, and start throwing nets and bola at the people on the wall. Have your fliers drop nets at the people on the wall, as well. You want to attract as many people to a section of wall as possible, and trap them there. Once you have enough people on that wall, and everyone's too distracted "helping", you have the three flying animals swoop in hard and fast, and charging strength check the top of the wall to topple it, making a bridge across the lava, throwing all the people on the wall at your feet (while netted!) to take them prisoner.

Once one set of walls goes down, repeat for all the walls until they adapt to the tactic. If you can remove ALL the walls, awesome, if not, you just need a big hole. Either way, when finished with this you disengage and withdraw back to your original siege distances, properly disarming and securing all the netted prisoners.

Now you have the Sphinxes go call all the mutants they can find and tell them about the new food source, and follow that up by sending a runner to the village to invite them to share salt and discuss prisoner trades.

Assuming they actually come to discuss terms, you tell them that every mutant in the area knows they're vulnerable now, and you have (prisoner percentile) of their forces imprisoned. You tell them that you are willing to release the prisoners and help them fix the walls so long as they agree to an alliance. If they don't agree to an alliance you will be leaving and the prisoners will be released in a fortnight- free men without a town to return to.

[RingofThorns]

That could be done. But the defenders will be taking shots at any flyovers the whole time, and even if the monsters are too tough for lv 1 warriors to harm, the men they're carrying aren't. It might be best to drop them off at the central tower- it has a balcony surrounding the top that would make good cover from below, and a few men could hold the narrow door while more men were brought in. Even if they can't expand outward to a gate, they might be able to help just by aiming down and shooting the wall defenders in the back.

As for the mutants, you could easily collect them because they are lured by the scent of water. Leave an open barrel out in the desert and you'll attract every mutant for miles around. Its been established in game previously that sphinxes are not affected by the venomous bites and blood of mutants, so they wouldn't be afraid to pick one up and fly it into the city.

The point of doing it at night preferably one with a new moon so its as dark as possible except for where you have fires going and are shooting/throwing flaming things at/over the walls. Is that you draw as many of not all the defenders possible to the wall. You could even mock up some assault ladders and have them thinking its an attack to take the wall or break down a gate. You would do this attention grabbing attack at say the north side of the city and then have the fliers come in at the south side with your deep striking guys. The tall tower is a good landing point but you stated that dragging this out isnt a good idea so holding it doesnt seem like it would work out to well in the long run. However inserting guys some where away from the conflict in large enough numbers they can raid the water supply stealing or ruining as much of it was they can.

[Toilet Cobra]

I can't remember if there's an exception in PF for flying animals, but both are large quadrupeds, so you should be multiplying all carrying capacities by 3. 399 for the manticore and 600 for the sphinxes.

That's an important point I missed! Opens up quite a few possibilities.




Same idea, with strength check substituted: ...

I like this. It's bold, unexpected, plays on the players' (and their soldiers') predictability, and it emphasizes capturing instead of killing the enemy. After their glass city falls, those traitors will probably beg to be let back into your territory as slaves, which is good since this military action amounts to a major drain on your economy and infrastructure.

[Toilet Cobra]

However inserting guys some where away from the conflict in large enough numbers they can raid the water supply stealing or ruining as much of it was they can.

The night drop does make it seem a lot more feasible. If even a small team of guys got in, they could easily sabotage the water supply (if they could find it) or even just open a gate and destroy the mechanism to keep it from being closed again.

[RingofThorns]

The night drop does make it seem a lot more feasible. If even a small team of guys got in, they could easily sabotage the water supply (if they could find it) or even just open a gate and destroy the mechanism to keep it from being closed again.

Finding the water supply would be what the maps and all are for, anywhere in a desert conflict that water is stored is going to be heavily defended, or atleast in a building that is very strong and fortified. The gate is likely to be protected as well but if you can get it open you can have a large group of guys just waiting to have it opened, so they can rush in. heck if that doesnt work you can always have a couple of sneaky cut throat types they can go find the ones asleep and start ganking a couple of people here and there just to slip away and hide in some empty building. heck even if you just get guys inside if they manage to keep hidden you can send them with paper and something to write with so they can launch messages tied to arrows over the walls to give you better intel.

[Alent]

Finding the water supply would be what the maps and all are for, anywhere in a desert conflict that water is stored is going to be heavily defended, or atleast in a building that is very strong and fortified. The gate is likely to be protected as well but if you can get it open you can have a large group of guys just waiting to have it opened, so they can rush in. heck if that doesnt work you can always have a couple of sneaky cut throat types they can go find the ones asleep and start ganking a couple of people here and there just to slip away and hide in some empty building. heck even if you just get guys inside if they manage to keep hidden you can send them with paper and something to write with so they can launch messages tied to arrows over the walls to give you better intel.

Did PF have an equivalent 3.5's dust of dryness? If you have some of that available, you could do better than throw notes over the wall, you could just hide the entire water supply in a sack of marbles and throw it over the wall.

[Toilet Cobra]

Did PF have an equivalent 3.5's dust of dryness? If you have some of that available, you could do better than throw notes over the wall, you could just hide the entire water supply in a sack of marbles and throw it over the wall.

PF does have Dust of Dryness. Given that it's a desert culture and water has to be transported long miles, it's possible that there's plenty of this in the richer territories.

Without water, they'd come running back to the negotiating table I bet.

[ILM]

Man, I'd just load up the fliers with rocks collected from wherever and spend 18 days dumping them from way above. Maybe in shifts, just so nobody in the city can sleep. If you have access to Shrink Item, that'd make it even faster.

And then I'd have 50 archers on each side ready to shoot anyone who comes out and who's not holding a big white flag.

[Toilet Cobra]

Man, I'd just load up the fliers with rocks collected from wherever and spend 18 days dumping them from way above. Maybe in shifts, just so nobody in the city can sleep. If you have access to Shrink Item, that'd make it even faster.

And then I'd have 50 archers on each side ready to shoot anyone who comes out and who's not holding a big white flag.

Haha elegant!

[fallensavior]

Spells above 3rd level are probably out of the question, though.

In that case, I would have invisible wizards and/or druids summon earth elementals and/or thoqquas. Both can burrow under the walls if needed. Repeat daily until they surrender unconditionally.

[Yahzi]

Assault

The fundamental problem is getting your wolves inside the walls, where they can kill the adventurers.

Take 4 wagons apart. Fix the beds end to end until you have a bridge 30' long. Reinforce it so can hold the wolves. Stand the bridge up on another wagon. Half the men give their arrows to the other half; the archers provide covering fire while the swordsmen push the wagon to the edge of the moat and then drop the bridge down onto the wall. The wolves rush up the bridge and jump into the city, followed by the swordsmen. If possible the swordsmen open a gate for the rest of your troops. If not, once all of them are over, the archers come over the bridge (although they may choose to fan out on the wall and use it as a firing platform down into the city).

Whenever possible the wolves hide from enemy attacks. Their job is to gang up and kill adventurers, not common soldiers. They may need to kill a few while establishing the bridgehead, but after that they should let the soldiers do the fighting until an adventurer appears.

If you can attack during a sandstorm, do that. Your men are desert dwellers and better able to deal with the environment. Furthermore, you are facing halfings, so shutting down archery is a good thing. In that case use the birds just like you do the dogs; they run over the bridge and wait for adventurers.

If you can't use a storm, attack at night. Your army has no lights, so you should be able to get to 100' or even 60' before the archery starts in earnest. If the enemy keeps his city dark, then everyone is fighting with minuses. If the city is lit up, then firing/attacking into it will be normal but firing out at your guys will be at a penalty. In any case all of your animals have low-light or darkvision, so they can operate without penalty. Also, your army doesn't need a lot of formation or direction; they know where the city is. Go there and kill everything in it.

The birds will be airborne, out of arrow range, until the bridge comes down. Then they dive in, selecting individual targets (preferably halflings) to grapple and then fly off with. They can drop their victims 30' above the moat - that ought to be high enough to cause the victim to break through the cooled lava and sink. If the victim clings to the bird, he lands near your swordsmen and they help the bird out. This will cause injury to the birds (particularly from the opportunity attack from the grapple), but since they are not standing toe-to-toe in battle they should not actually die. The birds will not actually inflict much damage, but the archers and PCs are likely to be fixated on them. Make sure they stay out of arrow range of most of the troops; if all they do is fly around in the air while the enemy holds attack actions waiting for them to close, then the birds are more than pulling their weight. They can also drop in once the wolves have located the adventurers.

This is an all-or-nothing assault since you are committing your wolves first. You are likely to take some losses. On the other hand sending men over will just bottle up the entrance. Use the wolves to clear a space; then use the men to expand it. The greatest weakness is the enemy taking out the bridge prematurely. Thus you must conceal its existence (via darkness or sandstorm) for as long as possible. Cover the bridge in leather if you can, to protect against fire. Once it is destroyed you are doomed, unless you have opened a gate by then.

Sideshow

While you are waiting for the sandstorm, try this. Fill a wagon with bales of hay. Five of your most heavily armored/dextrous men sit on top of the hay. Have some horses pull it quickly into very long arrow range. The driver cuts the horses loose and several men flip the wagon, hay side facing the city. The men at the wagon now take a few arrow shots. Mostly, though, they fight Defensively, Dodge, and use the wagon as cover while the enemy shoots at them. Wait until nightfall, then collect the arrows from the hay bales and surrounding sand (which should be soft enough that few are ruined). Do this with two or three wagons if you can.

The point of this exercise is to collect arrows, because you don't have enough. It will also keep the defenders busy making plans to counter your apparent desire to wage long-range archery battles.

[Erik Vale]

I doubt the wolves are inteligent enough to do that, however as a suicide rush and a potentially bridge in it's ok.

[SinsI]

What sort of soil is there? Can you dig under their walls?

[ILM]

Haha elegant!
Elegance is for socialites; warlords who are afraid that their neighbors will pounce at the first sign of weakness would be more concerned with efficiency. Ruthless destruction of the enemy's position with no loss to his own people would send a simple you-don't-want-to-mess-with-me message to his other opponents.

Plus, if the city has some kind of unexpected countermeasure, you can always try all the complex sneaky stuff other people have suggested in this thread.

[Mystia]

There are several smart plans here, I'm fairly sure that the attacking army has got quite the upper hand. And do listen to ILM's suggestion, that is really good. Besides everyone else's suggestions...
There might be a problem if the party tries to sneak out and assassinate the army's leader (this would be my players first plan)... just be sure to sleep using your Manticore as a pillow, and you should be fine, though.

If the desert mutants can do some damage, you really want to get these guys inside the town to fight for you. If they're attracted by water, set up a barrel like suggested, but leave a trap capable of binding a large number of them nearby, manually triggered by the sphinxes, probably. A simple large net spread out beneath the sand will do.
Afterwards, you want to airdrop the mutants inside the enemy town during the night, carrying them all at once by using a net or cage. Depending on how strong the mutants are, how many you can carry, and how often can you repeat this, you can defeat the defenders without losing a single soldier, in the best case scenario.

Last but not least, I wouldn't recommend to crippling their water supply, since it seems that your forces are at the risk of starving on the open desert in 18 days. That water could be better used by you, after the fight is over.

[jaydubs]

Minecraft idea - if you dig a path from the lava moat outward from the city, you should be able to drain it. If you can't drain it because of some aspect of magic, you have an infinite supply of lava, which could theoretically be shaped into stone ammunition to hurl into or drop on the city.

[Half-Wizard]

I would wait to send my army. I would want people who are experienced in desert survival to predict when a dust storm will occur (per DMG, there's about a 10% chance per day of having a dust storm in the desert). I would send my army to arrive on a day that a dust storm is predicted to occur (looks like a DC 20 survival check to anticipate two days in advance, or DC 25 to anticipate three days in advance). The dust storm will eliminate any early warning from the city's tower, and will spare me from dealing with ranged attacks as I approach the city.

While I'm waiting, I would look for prisoners in local jails and prisons. I would offer them a pardon in exchange for their services in an upcoming military campaign. If I get volunteers, I'll take them. If not, I'll take the worst offenders and force them into service without the possibility of a pardon.

My first task for the prisoners would be to help collect snakes. I would have warriors riding on the manticore and criosphinxes to survey the desert and direct teams to any snakes they find. The prisoners would do the job of catching them and trapping them in bags. Guards would be on standby to supervise the prisoners, but would stay out of harm's way as long as the prisoners follow instructions. Wounded volunteers would be allowed to get a reduced sentence if they choose to back out early, or a pardon and a small share of the loot if they choose to tough it out.

When the time is right to depart, I would preferably leave from a town other than the closest one, since I expect it might have spies. This means the journey might be over two days, but we should have plenty of supplies. I would take a compass to ensure that we are able to continue in the direction of the city once the dust storm starts.

On arrival, I would first create a distraction. I would send 100 men to the downwind side of the city, where the walls would offer them shelter. They would go in several wagons modified to provide cover, and they would shoot at any defenders they see. As long as the coast is clear, they would send the prisoners to the edge of the wall and order them to start hacking at it with picks to create handholds and footholds. The prisoners would be instructed merely to keep themselves safe, they aren't expected (nor allowed) to actually attempt to enter the city. They will be allowed to retreat if the defenders attack them, but they will have to return to the wall when it is safe to do so. Their goal is merely to draw defenders to that side of the wall, and hopefully allow for some of the defenders to be picked off in the meantime. If soldiers suspect the defenders are hiding behind the wall, the prisoners would be given the snake bags and would be instructed to shake them up, untie the ends and fling them over the wall at the defenders. The soldiers would be authorized to shoot the prisoners if they do not follow their directions.

After this force has gotten the attention of the defenders, I would send the other warriors to the other side of the wall. They would use shovels and wagons full of sand to pile up a sand ramp. Based on the rules for cave-in and collapse, a warrior with 15 strength and a shovel should be able to move a five-foot-cube of loose sand about 2.5 feet in one minute. If the sand ramp is to be approximately 20 feet wide, 40 feet long, and 20 feet tall, it should take 64 5-foot cubes of sand, plus another 16 5-foot cubes of sand to fill in the moat below it. That's a total of 80 5-foot cubes. If each such cube needs to be moved an average of 40 feet, then it would take 1,280 man-minutes, or about 12.8 minutes with 100 strong workers going at full speed, with horses, wagons and all. They would be instructed to work quickly and quietly. Once the ramp is complete, they would go over the wall with the dire wolves/mutated beasts. They would open the gate and let the other soldiers in. If they encounter any substantial resistance on the way to the gate, they would send a few men to get the other soldiers and bring them over the ramp instead of through the gate.

If the ramp workers see any enemies, they would be instructed to shoot them and report what they saw. After the first such incident, half of the warriors on the ramp side would be instructed to take cover and prepare to shoot at any other defenders, while the other half of the warriors would continue building the ramp. They would be instructed to dig trenches in the sand as part of their process for collecting material for the ramp. This would give them some cover if there's any kind of serious defense effort. They would be instructed to take cover and shoot at the defenders if any kind of serious defense effort is attempted.

[Zirconia]

If the desert mutants can do some damage, you really want to get these guys inside the town to fight for you. If they're attracted by water, set up a barrel like suggested, but leave a trap capable of binding a large number of them nearby, manually triggered by the sphinxes, probably. A simple large net spread out beneath the sand will do.
Afterwards, you want to airdrop the mutants inside the enemy town during the night, carrying them all at once by using a net or cage. Depending on how strong the mutants are, how many you can carry, and how often can you repeat this, you can defeat the defenders without losing a single soldier, in the best case scenario.

Similarly, if you can get in without destroying a gate, the gate will still be there when you want to use the city.

If each mutant takes out 2 of the commoner soldiers and you can get a dozen mutants in over a couple of nights, that changes your odds tremendously. 5 adventurers + 55 troops against 200 tribesmen plus some monsters looks very different to defend an entire city vs. 5 adventurers + 10 troops, say.

If the city dwellers start getting down to 20 or so "fighters", including adventurers, split into 2 shifts, they use up pretty much all of them stationing 1 per gate and 1 per wall on each shift. At that point, if you can drop 4 or 5 desert fighters at a gate at night with your fliers, they can overcome the guard or two and open the gate to let the rest of your troops in. Have them bring reach weapons and big shields to hide behind so they can defend for a few rounds while the other troops arrive, at night the main force can be stationed fairly close. Make sure to look up Spot penalties for distance, and at night, for the troops sneaking up vs. watchmen on the wall, and there are camouflage type things in the Complete Adventurer book.

You even have enough desert dwellers to sneak up on all 4 gates, so if a group is spotted the adventurers still won't know which gate to defend. No reason not to do this a few times while messing with the mutants over the course of several days, to keep the city dwellers up at night. You also, of course, do long range archery duels during the day with the hay wagons, as described, so they have to keep a day shift up. You have plenty of guys to pull this off, they don't.

[Strigon]

Use the aforementioned quarry thing to build dozens of stone bowls. Big ones.
Use what little iron and steel you have to create chains.
String the chains through the bowls.
Go to the city.
Break the solid layer above the lava.
Dip the bowls in.
Have the sphinxes/manticore pick up the lava bowls.
Use your incendiary bombs on wooden structures.

This will cause panic, deaths, and - perhaps most importantly - it will exhaust their water supply. You should have more than enough lava to pound them into, at least, a very weak state. Pick your targets carefully; if the barracks is flammable, start there to soften their soldiers up.
Even if they have a caster producing water for them, the fires will tie him/her up well enough that it's one less enemy to deal with (probably the most threatening, too!), and it'll reduce the morale of the citizens enough to have them want to leave, in a few days at most.

[Erik Vale]

The buildings are the same glass as the walls. However, there is the much simpler method of dropping torches and perhaps lit oil flasks as well [one of my original ideas. I would have dropped the poop flaming if the buildings were wooden once we got into biowar].


Should I post a summery of workable ideas?

[Strigon]

The buildings are the same glass as the walls.

When was this stated?

[Erik Vale]

No mages, gunpowder, gynosphinxes, or alchemist's fire are available (you used to have an alchemist manufacturing poisons for you but he's gone now). The city is constructed of the same magic glass. You don't know much about the fight with your manticore, but you can safely assume that it would have flown away if it c
Page 1, in response to me looking to devastate the city by bombardment using alchemical gear.

[Toilet Cobra]

Elegance is for socialites; warlords who are afraid that their neighbors will pounce at the first sign of weakness would be more concerned with efficiency.

That's very true. Brutal efficiency will definitely give your rivals pause. But if they start to doubt your intelligence and tactical prowess, they will covet your forces for themselves and start to conspire against you. In this empire, discrediting you politically is more effective than open fighting. If they consider you brilliant as well as ruthless, though, they'll beg to join you instead.


While I'm waiting, I would look for prisoners in local jails and prisons.

This is the only problem I see with your plan- this desert doesn't have prisons. There isn't enough food and water to keep them, so for minor infractions they do things like fines, lashes, or enforced servitude. Major ones are usually death or exile.

For collecting snakes and such you can use the sphinxes and their ability to talk to animals. You'll have to convince your soldiers to shake up the bags, though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Pick up exiles and steal indentured prisoners. Do you want a life of drudgery and danger, or glory fighting for the empire? 50 gold to the first man to skin alive one of the enemies from the city and to present it to myself and if you die, you die a freedman!

[Toilet Cobra]

Given how poor these desert villages are, a bounty is probably a really good idea just in general. Ten gallons of water for every halfling head!

[Honest Tiefling]

Or perhaps I should encourage other people to be brave on my behalf by promising a bounty on LIVING people...To be used as slaves. Could also provide a hook for the party or a way to get out of TPK depending on your DMing style.

If I cannot keep them, I can always sell to them to my neighbors for resources. An exotic halfling slave can also make for a great pet and a sign of wealth.

[Blackhawk748]

Pick up exiles and steal indentured prisoners. Do you want a life of drudgery and danger, or glory fighting for the empire? 50 gold to the first man to skin alive one of the enemies from the city and to present it to myself and if you die, you die a freedman!

HUZZAH!!

Also i love the Bridge plan, while the Wolves may not be smart enough to make a beachhead themselves, you could have one of your warriors be a "handler" for them, or use a Sphinx since this is happening during a sandstorm. Actually use the Sphinx, hes the "pack leader" and that makes it even more likely that the adventurers will bail instead of fight. Honestly i would contemplate bailing when confronted by one sphinx and 5 dire wolves.

[Erik Vale]

Or perhaps I should encourage other people to be brave on my behalf by promising a bounty on LIVING people...To be used as slaves. Could also provide a hook for the party or a way to get out of TPK depending on your DMing style.

If I cannot keep them, I can always sell to them to my neighbors for resources. An exotic halfling slave can also make for a great pet and a sign of wealth.

That's incredibly risky, especially if they try to take the adventurers alive.

[Honest Tiefling]

Risky on the part of the adventuers? Sure, but it might be a last ditch attempt to reclaim an important person.

Risky on the part of the evil overlord? Probably, but I assume in this case the adventurers have disguised themselves somehow.

[ILM]

That's very true. Brutal efficiency will definitely give your rivals pause. But if they start to doubt your intelligence and tactical prowess, they will covet your forces for themselves and start to conspire against you. In this empire, discrediting you politically is more effective than open fighting. If they consider you brilliant as well as ruthless, though, they'll beg to join you instead.
If the other warlords would forfeit brutally efficient solutions for more contrived ones just to appear smarter (the Dr. No Syndrome), then I like my chances :smallwink:.

I mean, you have a magical fortified city that appears overnight in the middle of your lands. They start threatening your lands, acting against you and taking your people. You offer to negotiate, they refuse. You ask for their surrender, they refuse. You send a small force, they send them back in pieces. Then you level the whole damn city. I'm guessing the first competing warlord that goes to the others saying "let's unite against him, he's STUPID" is going to need a lot of ranks in Diplomacy...

[Coidzor]

I'm sorry, I'm lost as to how they're continuing to get my tribespeople after declaring war on my tribe and why my kinsmen are so feckless that they'd completely betray their brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, and children as in your initial scenario. :smallconfused:

[YossarianLives]

The presence of adventurers make it almost impossible to capture the city. You and your army is most likely some low level villain for them to slaughter.

[Toilet Cobra]

I'm sorry, I'm lost as to how they're continuing to get my tribespeople after declaring war on my tribe and why my kinsmen are so feckless that they'd completely betray their brothers, sisters, cousins, parents, and children as in your initial scenario. :smallconfused:

Your tribe sees you as an outsider overlord who barely keeps them alive while profiting from their slavish toil. They would have risen up against you themselves if it weren't for the threat of massive retribution from the empire of which you are a vassal.

Then here come these nice adventurers with a magic city and seemingly endless water who offer them a better life than you ever could. Mostly whole families have been slipping away at a time, and occasionally groups of your soldiers as well. A few desperate individuals have straight abandoned their friends and family to get away- life is that harsh.


The presence of adventurers make it almost impossible to capture the city. You and your army is most likely some low level villain for them to slaughter.

Yes and no- fighting your army was something they were supposed to hold off on, using diplomacy and trickery to stall the fight while they recruited your people and gained levels. But you know players. They got sick of diplomacy and sabotage pretty quick so they just shot to the end. They're underleveled a bit for this fight but you never know.

[big teej]

based on the edit to the OP I might be here too late. BUT


given how much I've been reading the MM IV recently, I would attempt to find/enlist the aid of some blue spawn of tiamat. they aid in taking the city in exchange for a share of treasure.... naturally, being dragons, they get however large a share convinces them to join while not bankrupting me.

[Coidzor]

Your tribe sees you as an outsider overlord who barely keeps them alive while profiting from their slavish toil. They would have risen up against you themselves if it weren't for the threat of massive retribution from the empire of which you are a vassal.

Then here come these nice adventurers with a magic city and seemingly endless water who offer them a better life than you ever could. Mostly whole families have been slipping away at a time, and occasionally groups of your soldiers as well. A few desperate individuals have straight abandoned their friends and family to get away- life is that harsh.

So I'm a useless bureaucrat-type from the local Evil Empire, have no support from my home empire, and am basically cut off from them by tribes that have already rebelled against the empire, but there's still a credible threat of retribution if I'm killed? :smallconfused:

And the adventurers aren't out to completely destroy the culture of my subjects, they just hate the Evil Empire and/or me personally?

Am I actually profiting or are my tribals so stupid they don't even know that life has always been harsh because it's the desert despite being partially pacified desert tribals? If so, how have I been profiting and what can I leverage that into?

[AnonymousPepper]

While you are waiting for the sandstorm, try this. Fill a wagon with bales of hay. Five of your most heavily armored/dextrous men sit on top of the hay. Have some horses pull it quickly into very long arrow range. The driver cuts the horses loose and several men flip the wagon, hay side facing the city. The men at the wagon now take a few arrow shots. Mostly, though, they fight Defensively, Dodge, and use the wagon as cover while the enemy shoots at them. Wait until nightfall, then collect the arrows from the hay bales and surrounding sand (which should be soft enough that few are ruined). Do this with two or three wagons if you can.

The point of this exercise is to collect arrows, because you don't have enough. It will also keep the defenders busy making plans to counter your apparent desire to wage long-range archery battles.

For the love of Mystra do this. This is of course drawn directly from The Romance of the Three Kingdoms, supposedly from the mind of none other than Zhuge Liang himself. I love it.

[Toilet Cobra]

So I'm a useless bureaucrat-type from the local Evil Empire, have no support from my home empire, and am basically cut off from them by tribes that have already rebelled against the empire, but there's still a credible threat of retribution if I'm killed? :smallconfused:

And the adventurers aren't out to completely destroy the culture of my subjects, they just hate the Evil Empire and/or me personally?

Am I actually profiting or are my tribals so stupid they don't even know that life has always been harsh because it's the desert despite being partially pacified desert tribals? If so, how have I been profiting and what can I leverage that into?

What answers I have are tied up in a lot of campaign stuff that didn't seem relevant to the original question, but I'll lay out some basic points for those that're interested. Really though, what sounded good in my head as I wrote this campaign backstory won't make sense to everyone, so please overlook my flawed logic. I wanted an evil desert empire that adventurers could realistically topple and this is what I came up with.


Your desert civilization is actually extremely young. The desert appeared approximately two hundred years ago after a cataclysm of runaway elven magic devastated the planet. Only the most fertile lands remained tillable at all, and over the course of just a few years, billions of acres of desert appeared where there used to be thriving self-sustainable nations. The human tribes in this scenario aren't ancient wandering nomads-- until just a few generations ago, they were your typical D&D commoners used to living in a feudal kingdom in a temperate climate. When the cataclysm came most of the surface population died off due to starvation, thirst, and conflict, and much of the survivors were mutated into twisted aberrations. The elves fled and the dwarves, overburdened with refugees, closed their borders. The humans were left to fend for themselves and those that remained were the hardiest, luckiest, and most ruthless.

It's important to remember that these people have no sense of history and little tradition. The kingdoms from which they descended have been obliterated except for a few hardy structures that remain half-buried in the sand. They have no real culture to draw from and have even abandoned most of the gods who failed to aid them.

Enter the sphinxes, who saw opportunity in the humans' suffering. They took one large group of scattered and shellshocked humans (though only a fraction of the total survivors, many of whom still live out in the deeper desert) and taught them to live in their native wasteland. They organized the labor of the humans effectively and, at least in this one corner of the desert, kept the mutants at bay. At first, this was a true symbiotic relationship, but soon the sphinxes' natural laziness, greed, and aloofness caused them to start taking more and more advantage of their captive population of humans, enjoying more comforts while the humans worked harder and harder.

As the human population leveled out and started growing again, the sphinxes groomed some of those humans that came from noble lines to take positions of leadership. However, the sphinxes held their proteges in almost as much contempt as the commoners they managed, and only cared that their tithes kept flowing with a minimum of fuss. As long as they were able to ensure that their sphinx masters were happy, they enjoyed a portion of the largess and amassed wealth and power for themselves. With lesser sphinxes and other monsters acting as muscle, and these human overseers managing the labor and flow of tribute, the empire has more or less has functioned this way for over a century.

Open conflict between overseers was strictly forbidden by the sphinxes, but communication is poor in the empire and fighting does occur when the sphinxes' spies aren't around. Much more common, though, is political backbiting to discredit one's neighbors. If the sphinxes suspect that an overseer is incompetent, usually by monitoring spotty and inadequate offerings of tribute, they will remove him or her. They are not stupid, and understand that the humans are sabotaging one another to gain position, but they feel that any human who is smart enough and ruthless enough to defeat and discredit his foe deserves what he can take. If he fails to keep his new territories in line, he can be removed and replaced just as easily, so what do they care?

The crux of the combat scenario I've outlined in this thread lies in the fact that, in order to guard your position, you have to succeed without the aid of your neighbors or your sphinx masters. Literally nobody else in the empire has been threatened by this group of rebellious adventurers, so you have the unfortunate position of at best nobody caring when you defeat them, and at worst thinking you incompetent if you fail. The only true winning outcome for you lies in taking the magic city and its secrets for yourself, and in doing so elevate yourself far beyond your peers.

[IZ42]

Use the aforementioned quarry thing to build dozens of stone bowls. Big ones.

I read this as "owls" and I was incredibly confused.