Swordsage/Assassin build

[rrwoods]

I think I've posted this build before, but I can't find the thread :-(

Anyway, the character concept is a mystical/martial sneak who later finds and masters a small amount of magic. Mechanically, damage output and stealth are the primary goals.

32 point buy: 12/16/10/16/14/8
After racial modifiers (Whisper Gnome): Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 6

1st - Swordsage - Shadow Blade - Island of Blades, Distracting Ember, Burning Blade, Wind Stride, Stone Bones, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Clinging Shadow Strike
2nd - Swordsage - Child of Shadow, Counter Charge
3rd - Swordsage - Weapon Finesse - Cloak of Deception
4th - Swordsage - +INT - Fire Riposte, Shadow Jaunt; lose Counter Charge
5th - Swordsage - Assassin's Stance, Shadow Garrote
6th - Assassin - Darkstalker - critical strike, insightful feint
7th - Assassin - distract assailant
8th - Assassin - +INT - alter self, swift invisibility
9th - Assassin - Combat Expertise - shock and awe, cat's grace
10th - Assassin - wraithstrike, misdirection
11th - Unseen Seer - fell the greatest foe, spectral weapon
12th - Assassin - +DEX - Improved Feint - greater invisibility, freedom of movement
13th - Assassin - find the gap, assassin's darkness; if we have Gloves of Dexterity, drop cat's grace for invisibility
14th - Assassin
15th - Assassin - Staggering Strike - dimension door
16th - Swordsage - +DEX - Insightful Strike, Moment of Alacrity; lose Clinging Shadow Strike
17th - Swordsage - Mind over Body
18th - Swordsage - Craven - Greater Insightful Strike, Avalanche of Blades; lose Insightful Strike
19th - Swordsage - Giant Killing Style, Inferno Blade
20th - Swordsage - +DEX - Wyrm's Flame, Shadow Blink; lose Shadow Jaunt

My primary concern with this build is how feat-starved it is. I have Craven all the way at 18, and I'm not even taking Surprising Riposte! Is the two-feat investment of Combat Expertise + Improved Feint too much?

Is Shadow Garrote worth it at all? It's a standard action so I don't get to attack my target again.

Just in general, what do folks see here regarding improving this build (of course staying within the concept of a mystical sneak)?

[Feint's End]

I think I've posted this build before, but I can't find the thread :-(

Anyway, the character concept is a mystical/martial sneak who later finds and masters a small amount of magic. Mechanically, damage output and stealth are the primary goals.

32 point buy: 12/16/10/16/14/8
After racial modifiers (Whisper Gnome): Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 6

1st - Swordsage - Shadow Blade - Island of Blades, Distracting Ember, Burning Blade, Wind Stride, Stone Bones, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Clinging Shadow Strike
2nd - Swordsage - Child of Shadow, Counter Charge
3rd - Swordsage - Weapon Finesse - Cloak of Deception
4th - Swordsage - +INT - Fire Riposte, Shadow Jaunt; lose Counter Charge
5th - Swordsage - Assassin's Stance, Shadow Garrote
6th - Assassin - Darkstalker - critical strike, insightful feint
7th - Assassin - distract assailant
8th - Assassin - +INT - alter self, swift invisibility
9th - Assassin - Combat Expertise - shock and awe, cat's grace
10th - Assassin - wraithstrike, misdirection
11th - Unseen Seer - fell the greatest foe, spectral weapon
12th - Assassin - +DEX - Improved Feint - greater invisibility, freedom of movement
13th - Assassin - find the gap, assassin's darkness; if we have Gloves of Dexterity, drop cat's grace for invisibility
14th - Assassin
15th - Assassin - Staggering Strike - dimension door
16th - Swordsage - +DEX - Insightful Strike, Moment of Alacrity; lose Clinging Shadow Strike
17th - Swordsage - Mind over Body
18th - Swordsage - Craven - Greater Insightful Strike, Avalanche of Blades; lose Insightful Strike
19th - Swordsage - Giant Killing Style, Inferno Blade
20th - Swordsage - +DEX - Wyrm's Flame, Shadow Blink; lose Shadow Jaunt

My primary concern with this build is how feat-starved it is. I have Craven all the way at 18, and I'm not even taking Surprising Riposte! Is the two-feat investment of Combat Expertise + Improved Feint too much?

Is Shadow Garrote worth it at all? It's a standard action so I don't get to attack my target again.

Just in general, what do folks see here regarding improving this build (of course staying within the concept of a mystical sneak)?

Improved Feint isn't worth it IMO so just skip those two feats and get the other ones earlier.

Shadow Garrote is pretty bad but can be situationally useful. Especially if you apply sneak attack damage to it (its an attack roll IIRC). The problem is it doesn't scale at all and therefor becomes useless compared to the really good maneuvers. I recommend dropping it for another one.

intelligence is way too high. You don't need it except for skill points. On a similar note you want at least 14 con and probably 16 wis. With that in mind if I'd do a pointbuy for a whisper Gnome it would look more like this (with modifiers):

str 8 dex 18 con 14 int 14 wis 16 cha 6

or

str 10 dex 18 con 14 int 12 wis 16 cha 6

or

str 8 dex 20 con 14 int 12 wis 14 cha 6 (this is probably the best one)

[Sam K]

Do you really need assassin? It's not that good of a PRC. You already have the "magic" from swordsage (shadow hand and desert wind), and you can get sneak attack damage from a shadow hand stance. The handful of dice of sneak attack you get from assassin won't really add meaningful amounts of damage when you're throwing around high level diamond mind strikes, and half of the world is immune to it anyway. You will simply be better at striking from the shadows by taking more swordsage than by taking more assassin. Maybe take one level in assassin just so you can get craven (unless it requires more sneak attack dice?).

Get rid of improved feint and the prereqs; the best thing with sneak attack is craven, and you want it ASAP.

[Callin]

If Pathfinder is on the table OR you can convince the DM to allow this PrC. Dreamscarred Presses Mage Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/mage-hunter) from Path of War would be something to look at.

[rrwoods]

Interesting that folks are mentioning Assassin and INT not being important. INT is high in order to cast 4th-level Assassin spells (EDIT: I am a dumb. I haven't played a caster before now and for some reason thought my INT bonus needed to be +4 to cast 4th level spells. INT is going to 14.) -- I feel invisibility, distract assailant, dimension door, alter self, and such can help make this character do what it wants to do. I don't have a lot of practical experience with 3.5 (I've done a ton of reading but not a lot of playing) so maybe it's just not as good as it seems. And is 6d6 of SA really a "handful"? It's triple what I get from Assassin's Stance! I do recognize that half the world is immune to it though. Assassin is listed in the PrC teir system as an up-1 PrCl; I certainly don't think Swordsage/Assassin is Teir 2 by any means but that at least means it's a "good" PrC?

Also of note, because I didn't specify in the OP, this build is going to be played from very low levels (possibly 1st) and I'd like to be effective at as many levels as possible. If that means sacrificing some effectiveness later for more earlier that's fine.

Not trying to be stubborn here, just genuinely curious as to the reasoning. I'm considering making some changes along the lines you guys are suggesting. Dropping Assassin de-emphasizes INT for this character (which is good, since it already needs DEX, WIS, and to a lesser extent CON) and lets me get more maneuvers and Swordsage features. If I do that I will probably de-emphasize sneak attack as well, and just focus more in-game on hiding before striking and play up the Shadow Hand stuff to keep the character concept the same.

[Deadline]

Interesting that folks are mentioning Assassin and INT not being important. INT is high in order to cast 4th-level Assassin spells

You only need 14 Int to do that, don't you?


-- I feel invisibility, distract assailant, dimension door, alter self, and such can help make this character do what it wants to do.

You get better combat invis with a 1st level Shadow Hand maneuver (Cloak of Deception), a flanking buddy with Distracting Ember (1st level Desert Wind maneuver), and roughly equivalent d-door abilities through the Shadow Step/Jaunt maneuvers from Shadow Hand. Alter Self is the only piece you can really benefit from there (and a Hat of Disguise may do for that in a pinch). You don't need to cast 4th level Assassin spells to get that, though.


And is 6d6 of SA really a "handful"? It's triple what I get from Assassin's Stance! I do recognize that half the world is immune to it though.

It's a handful compared to folks who focus on it, yes. And there is a rogue alternate class feature called "Penetrating Strike" that lets you use half your SA on targets that are normally immune.


Assassin is listed in the PrC teir system as an up-1 PrCl; I certainly don't think Swordsage/Assassin is Teir 2 by any means but that at least means it's a "good" PrC?

That doesn't universally apply, it depends on what you put it on. Adding Assassin levels to Wizard makes for a worse character, not an equivalent or better one. Swordsage is already very versatile, and can do most of what Assassin gives you already (I think Alter Self is pretty much the only thing missing). If you aren't shooting for optimizing the Assassin class, you should probably avoid it and continue on with Swordsage.

[Red Fel]

Not trying to be stubborn here, just genuinely curious as to the reasoning. I'm considering making some changes along the lines you guys are suggesting. Dropping Assassin de-emphasizes INT for this character (which is good, since it already needs DEX, WIS, and to a lesser extent CON) and lets me get more maneuvers and Swordsage features. If I do that I will probably de-emphasize sneak attack as well, and just focus more in-game on hiding before striking and play up the Shadow Hand stuff to keep the character concept the same.

The reason people de-emphasize Assassin is that it's not particularly good at what it does. Consider what you get: Sneak Attack: Well, that's nice, but don't forget that there are so many enemies - particularly later in the game - who either have protection from or are flat-out immune to precision damage. Yes, there are feats and weapon crystals to get around that, but all in all an extra 5d6 damage isn't a lot, particularly when Assassin's Stance gets you +2d6 right out of the gate. It's not much of a return. Death Attack: A terrible waste. First, you have to remain unnoticed for 3 rounds, which likely means doing nothing or next-to-nothing. So it's not much good if you plan to contribute in combat. Second, it requires a Fort save, which is generally a high save. Third, the DC is 10 + Assassin level + Int. At capstone, that's likely to be less than 30. And at that stage in the game, a lot of creatures can make that save. (Consider, for example, that a Wyrm Black Dragon, CR 20, has a +26 Fort save.) Poison Use: Do you really use poison in your games? I haven't encountered poison use by PCs in most of my games, and given the saves involved, I understand why. Spells: Yes, Assassin is a partial-casting class. But it doesn't really get a lot of spells, it casts off Int (making it MAD, as you note), and a lot of its spells require a standard action - meaning that you're looking at a turn during which you make no attacks. You have so much action utility from being a Swordsage, why give that up to cast a few spells? Save vs. Poison: Lame. Next? Uncanny Dodge/ Improved Uncanny Dodge: Not bad, but there are so many sources for it it's not funny. Hide in Plain Sight: Useful, but it's buried deep in this class. It also requires "some sort of shadow," which is annoying to argue.
Bottom line: It's a MAD class, it has some useless abilities and others that waste your actions. It has a few good items buried within the muck. As pointed out in the 3.5 Assassin Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0):
Let's just get it out there now: the Assassin is not the only way of building a magically-inclined sneak, and it is not the strongest way of doing it. That doesn't mean it can't hold its own ground, but as with most concepts, any comparably-themed build with level 9 spells will probably blow the lesser caster out of the water.

What the Assassin does provide is a concise package of sneak attack, stealthy abilities, and access to a unique array of spells not normally available from a single list. Its splatbook support overshadows almost every class beside the PHB eleven (though the psion and warlock may give it a run for its money), and it's popular enough to prompt semi-frequent threads on this and other optimization forums.
If you really want to go with the Assassin class, it will be difficult. You will be feat-starved, you will be combat-frail, and you will be dealing with things that are outright immune to a lot of your best tricks. Swordsage will help you remain relevant, but by choosing Assassin you are cutting off access to higher-powered maneuvers. It's something you have to decide. Assassin isn't an inherently bad decision, but it is often an inferior one, so keep that thought in mind.

[Sam K]

The difference between 2d6 and 6d6 sneak attack is going to be an average of 14 damage per hit. That's not bad, as such. But compare that to the damage higher level maneuvers will get you. 9 levels of assassin cuts off access from 8th and 9th level maneuvers, which is a high price to pay for 14 damage per hit and alter self.

Also, sneak attack and martial adept doesn't synergise that well. Sneak attack is best when you're pumping out alot of hits (generally dual wielding) because it's added to every hit you make. But one of the strengths of martial adepts is being able to do decent damage with standard actions (through strikes), so you won't be putting out that many iteratives. While you can fake dual wield through maneuvers (wolf fang strike and dancing mongoose) it will be once/combat.

Put it another way: you're taking 9 levels of assassin for 14 extra damage per hit (when you can sneak attack and the enemy isn't immune to it) and alter self. And you lose high level maneuvers to get that, as well as your higher level sword sage abilities (not great, but still). I might consider taking enough assassin levels (or rogue levels) to qualify for craven, because it's a relatively small investmen for when it works, but no more than that. And even that investment isn't optimized by any means.

Assassin could boost rogue a bit, but swordsage is simply a better class at being an assassin than assassin is.

[rrwoods]

Hm. You all make very good points. There are enough swift action spells on the assassin list that I was drawn to it for those (distract assailant!) but most of those are to enable SA. Not needing any INT to speak of will help alleviate things a lot.

I guess the remaining question is: is small size weapons too big of a drawback to be paying for +9 hide +5 move silently? With DEX to damage from shadow blade and the insightful strike line, I think it's probably ok but am I under/overestimating anything?

[Red Fel]

Hm. You all make very good points. There are enough swift action spells on the assassin list that I was drawn to it for those (distract assailant!) but most of those are to enable SA. Not needing any INT to speak of will help alleviate things a lot.

I guess the remaining question is: is small size weapons too big of a drawback to be paying for +9 hide +5 move silently? With DEX to damage from shadow blade and the insightful strike line, I think it's probably ok but am I under/overestimating anything?

The Rogue/SA style of attacking isn't dependent on weapon size, but on number of hits. Instead of relying on big number-adding functions (the way Power Attack works, for example) you rely on small things that tack onto every hit, and then hitting a whole lot. SA is the classic example. Small size weapons aren't terrible for that; you're not focused on your weapon hitting hard, you're focused on all the stuff that gets added onto it. It's why Whisper Gnome makes for such a solid SA build - you're getting the right ability score bonuses, boosts to stealth, Darkvision, and size bonus to AC, attack, and Hide. I wouldn't worry about that. (As an aside, if you really want Hide in Plain Sight, consider getting a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. 10,800 for 10 min/day, or 22,000 for continuous use, it gives you the Dark Creature template. In addition to stealth boosts, it gives you Hide in Plain Sight as long as you're not in direct daylight or a Daylight spell.)

Now, single-hit strikes are trickier, because they're all about a single, more powerful hit, rather than a series of smaller hits with add-ons. Fortunately, most of them have their own specific damage calculus to compensate for the fact that you're only hitting once. So that's not a worry, either.

[Deadline]

Hm. You all make very good points. There are enough swift action spells on the assassin list that I was drawn to it for those (distract assailant!) but most of those are to enable SA.

Swordsage already gets this with the Distracting Ember maneuver. It's a swift action summon of an elemental who threatens for 1 round. Place him on the opposite side of your opponent and SA away! He also provides your allies with a potential flanking buddy as well. And it doesn't allow spell resistance or a save. So it's better in almost every way.

Most of what you want to do is already built into the Swordsage chassis. Maybe if you listed the kinds of stuff you want to do (spells you like from the Assassin list, SA, Death Attack, etc.), we could recommend the maneuvers you'd need.


I guess the remaining question is: is small size weapons too big of a drawback to be paying for +9 hide +5 move silently? With DEX to damage from shadow blade and the insightful strike line, I think it's probably ok but am I under/overestimating anything?

The only time your weapon size matters is if you don't add anything (SA, Strength bonus, etc.) to it. At that point, it matters, but you have other problems. The difference between a medium sized shortsword (1d6) and a small shortsword (1d4) is, what, 1 point of damage on average? That's pretty much a non-issue. Especially if you are adding Sneak Attack dice, or big numbers to the result.

[rrwoods]

The biggest assassin thing swordsage doesn't look like it can replicate is alter self. However it's something I can do without. The sneak attack dice are cool, but are there other more reliable ways of getting more damage per swing? Probably; I'm not too familiar with what they would be though.

Hide and strike is the name of my game. My assassin spells were focused on making that happen. But with shadow hand maneuvers and stances, plus some help from diamond mind and Distracting Ember, it looks like I can find things that will fit the bill (and all day to boot). I'm going to redo the build without assassin and see what I can come up with.

[Deadline]

The biggest assassin thing swordsage doesn't look like it can replicate is alter self. However it's something I can do without. The sneak attack dice are cool, but are there other more reliable ways of getting more damage per swing? Probably; I'm not too familiar with what they would be though.

If you aren't glued to the idea of a Whisper Gnome, you can use a Changeling as your base race, which solves that issue. Alternatively, you take a level in Rogue and pick up the Mimic ACF (Elder Evils book I think). You can even do both Penetrating Strike ACF and Mimic ACF on the same character. A Hat of Disguise (super cheap) can kind of do this (with at-will Disguise Self), and I think there is an item that functions just like the Hat of Disguise but for Alter Self instead (not sure where I saw it though).

Edit - Yep, found the sources for Mimic and Penetrating Strike (I used them both in my Mountebank Iron Chef Build, The Inscrutable Master Gau (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17235733&postcount=234)):

Dugeonscape (Penetrating Strike Alternate Class Feature - Replaces Trap Sense)
Exemplars of Evil (Mimic Alternate Class Feature - Replaces Trapfinding)