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GoblinGilmartin
2015-01-22, 06:54 AM
I've always loved the concept of dragons in D&D, but in all my attempts at homebrew, I've omitted them. I've never actually put a dragon as a boss monster in an RPG.

In my campaign setting, I'd considered creating a core plot about a race of ancient dragons that almost destroyed the world by playing Xorvintaal. Then I realized I didn't want to make rules for Xorvintaal, and I didn't want to make it up on the fly.

But I'm rebuilding my setting from the ground up, and I just can't figure out how to fit dragons in without them having nothing to do.

I'm thinking of removing them entirely, but I feel like that would be taking something important out of the game.

I was thinking possibly having them be recently appearing extra dimensional beings? I dunno. Thoughts?

Or secondly, I have two main deities in the setting, The Bird and the Lizard. Considering dragons encompass elements of both, could there be something in that? (sorry If I'm rambling, it's late).

prufock
2015-01-22, 07:43 AM
In my campaign setting, I'd considered creating a core plot about a race of ancient dragons that almost destroyed the world by playing Xorvintaal. Then I realized I didn't want to make rules for Xorvintaal, and I didn't want to make it up on the fly.
You don't need to make up the rules for Xorvintaal - even the creators didn't bother, and there are said to be hundreds of them. Plus if it is ancient history, known only to dragons, and arcane in nature, there's a good chance it was lost. Using it as a basis for the rules of your setting can work fine without the rules for the game.

What you want is reverse engineering. Develop the rules for how your setting is designed. Work backward to the logical origin of a Xorvintaal rule. Still a lot of work, but gives you more freedom.


But I'm rebuilding my setting from the ground up, and I just can't figure out how to fit dragons in without them having nothing to do.
Remember, dragons can live for a looong time. You can make them virtually immortal if you want. They can be asexual beings, reproducing in a phoenix-type way, so that there's only a young one when an old one dies (or reverting to an earlier life stage, like those weird jellyfish).

I have a campaign setting right now where there is one dragon. Period. It's old, it lives in the desert, and like a cat, sleeps most of the time. The players are unlikely to encounter it, but it can drive stories in different ways (the story they are involved in right now is driven in part by its existence).

I'm thinking of removing them entirely, but I feel like that would be taking something important out of the game.


Or secondly, I have two main deities in the setting, The Bird and the Lizard. Considering dragons encompass elements of both, could there be something in that? (sorry If I'm rambling, it's late).
That makes a lot of sense. "Deity" doesn't have to mean "all-powerful immortal being." They can just be the most powerful creatures in the world, capable of leveling cities at a whim if they like. "The Bird" can be a more standard aerial dragon, while "The Lizard" can be a burrowing, small-winged brown-dragon type.

Mastikator
2015-01-22, 08:03 AM
Two main deities, what about minor deities? The dragons could each be a lesser deity. Potentially a lot lesser.

GoblinGilmartin
2015-01-22, 08:36 AM
Two main deities, what about minor deities? The dragons could each be a lesser deity. Potentially a lot lesser.

There are actually classes of deities in my setting, mostly because I had waay too many ideas that I didn't want to give up. There are the main two, then the four elemental godesses, then entire small pantheons of gods of the races, and then ascended mortals. I suppose I could squeeze them in somewhere if i wanted to, but I just don't think it'd be a good fit. although...

Yora
2015-01-22, 08:49 AM
Dragons in D&D are weird.

Great Wyrms are way to powerful for almost anyone to fight, but also so cool that fighting anything smaller feels like a letdown. Maybe it doesn't have to be a Great Wyrm, but mature adult really would be the minimum and most of them aren't really that huge. And in practive, I believe 95% of PCs never make it beyond 5th level at all. Dragons are simply too awesome to use in D&D.

I always think about adding homebrewed dragons to my setting, but never have any good ideas how to make them visible in the world without dominating it.

Mastikator
2015-01-22, 09:04 AM
There are actually classes of deities in my setting, mostly because I had waay too many ideas that I didn't want to give up. There are the main two, then the four elemental godesses, then entire small pantheons of gods of the races, and then ascended mortals. I suppose I could squeeze them in somewhere if i wanted to, but I just don't think it'd be a good fit. although...

Well then they could just be one of the pantheons, for kobolds.

Or you could have all the deities have multiple forms, one of which is dragon. Like in the Eberron setting.

GoblinGilmartin
2015-01-22, 09:05 AM
Dragons in D&D are weird.

Great Wyrms are way to powerful for almost anyone to fight, but also so cool that fighting anything smaller feels like a letdown. Maybe it doesn't have to be a Great Wyrm, but mature adult really would be the minimum and most of them aren't really that huge. And in practive, I believe 95% of PCs never make it beyond 5th level at all. Dragons are simply too awesome to use in D&D.

I always think about adding homebrewed dragons to my setting, but never have any good ideas how to make them visible in the world without dominating it.

I'll say. I don't think i've ever taken a party past 7th level.

ILM
2015-01-22, 12:06 PM
I've never been down with the whole intelligent dragon thing. My setting's dragons are ferocious beasts, fiercely territorial and relentless in their hunts. Their natural environment is mountaineous, and in fact they really only breed and spend most of their lives in one specific mountain range, on a continent near the southern tropics. They are large creatures and the furnaces that burn within their flesh requires tremendous amounts of energy, so their toll on the environment is heavy.

Some human settlements, over time, drawn by the resources of the mountains and the bountiful steppes around them, have managed to develop around the mountains, and today they constitute a small kingdom that has learned to live with this perpetual threat. They elevate dragons to quasi-divine status and getting eaten by one is just taken to mean that the gods are fed up with your existence. They've learned to avoid them by keeping to areas too narrow or impractical for dragons, and having their cattle graze away from settlements and preferably spread out across large distances. Their cities are carved in the side of mountains, and they are skilled mountaineers and stoneworkers.

When dragons near the end of their lives (though "near" is a blurry concept when you live over a thousand years) they start a long migration that takes them all across the world, up to an isolated island in the frozen, polar wastes, there to die among the bones of all their kind before them. Nobody really knows why they have that instinct. The migration takes them through a large swathe of settled lands, as any shorter route would have them cross thousands of miles of naked ocean at a time (which they aren't able to do - they need to eat, drink and sleep like any other living creature). Sometimes people resist them, and those battles are the stuff of legend; most of the time they scamble to safety as few are able to threaten a dragon that has lived hundreds of years.

In particularly rare occasions, many dragons of comparable age undertake their final migration at the same time. This usually causes crippling damage to the areas they pass through (also, creates plot hooks :smallwink:), and explain the relatively sparse population density in some areas which would otherwise be quite attractive.


So basically, think of dragons in my world as carnivorous flying whales.

Knaight
2015-01-22, 12:22 PM
You don't need dragons, a setting can be perfectly viable without them. With that said, an obvious way to use them would be more in accordance with earlier European and near-European myths (going elsewhere doesn't solve the issue of them generally being too excellent to use. For instance, Chinese dragons are typically depicted as deity-like figures of awesome power). The dragons are generally smaller than they get in D&D (Large-Huge, not Colossal), they're at the high end of animal intelligence, they breathe fire and/or spit poison but don't cast spells, and they mostly terrorize large areas on the margins of society. That's a distinct role, and one in which they're a bit easier to include as something lower powered PCs interact directly with than as the hyperintelligent spellcasters which are also ridiculously large and tough beings they are currently.

Hiro Protagonest
2015-01-22, 12:49 PM
You don't need to make up the rules for Xorvintaal - even the creators didn't bother, and there are said to be hundreds of them. Plus if it is ancient history, known only to dragons, and arcane in nature, there's a good chance it was lost. Using it as a basis for the rules of your setting can work fine without the rules for the game.

What you want is reverse engineering. Develop the rules for how your setting is designed. Work backward to the logical origin of a Xorvintaal rule. Still a lot of work, but gives you more freedom.

If one manages to translate Ancient Draconic, a language lost to time, they'll find that "Xorvintaal" translates as "Calvinball". :smallamused:

Palanan
2015-01-22, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Hiro Protagonest
If one manages to translate Ancient Draconic, a language lost to time, they'll find that "Xorvintaal" translates as "Calvinball".

If I ever start having sigs, this goes at the very top of the list.

:smallbiggrin:

Red Fel
2015-01-22, 01:21 PM
There are actually classes of deities in my setting, mostly because I had waay too many ideas that I didn't want to give up. There are the main two, then the four elemental godesses, then entire small pantheons of gods of the races, and then ascended mortals. I suppose I could squeeze them in somewhere if i wanted to, but I just don't think it'd be a good fit. although...

Well, this is an idea, then. You have the Bird and the Lizard, and the four elements, which I guess comprise your "primordial" class of deities. Why not have the Dragons exist, not as a vast race of monsters or highly intelligent immortals, but as rare symbols of compromise? Consider this:
The Bird and Lizard agreed to a compromise, and to represent their compromise, they crafted four creatures, each with elements of both the Bird and the Lizard. Each of the Goddesses, overseeing this compromise, granted her blessing to one of the four creatures. These creatures were called Dragon, or "Balance," in the language of the gods. The Dragons then went to the four corners of the world, living manifestations of the balance between the Bird and the Lizard, and the elemental power of the Goddesses.

You've now set them up as unique set pieces; rather than an entire race, there are only the four, physical incarnations of the will of their deities. And you can play them how you like - perhaps one turned his environs into a scorched wasteland, and now sleeps beneath burning sands; perhaps one created a vast fertile plain, and the people of that land built a temple around him and pay tribute; perhaps one simply swims endlessly beneath the waves, the apex sea predator. Or perhaps they simply faded from the world, with only fables and carvings telling of their once-existence. You can use them or not use them; they become part of the lore, not quite gods, but more like legendary figures or heroes. If your PCs happen across one, what happens happens, but if they don't, they're simply part of the world's lore.

Jay R
2015-01-22, 02:51 PM
Nobody's going to explore the entire world. Unless the dragons are near the PCs or have something the PCs want, they should never be involved in the game, even if they exist.

Qwertystop
2015-01-22, 05:04 PM
I've never been down with the whole intelligent dragon thing. My setting's dragons are ferocious beasts, fiercely territorial and relentless in their hunts. Their natural environment is mountaineous, and in fact they really only breed and spend most of their lives in one specific mountain range, on a continent near the southern tropics. They are large creatures and the furnaces that burn within their flesh requires tremendous amounts of energy, so their toll on the environment is heavy.

Some human settlements, over time, drawn by the resources of the mountains and the bountiful steppes around them, have managed to develop around the mountains, and today they constitute a small kingdom that has learned to live with this perpetual threat. They elevate dragons to quasi-divine status and getting eaten by one is just taken to mean that the gods are fed up with your existence. They've learned to avoid them by keeping to areas too narrow or impractical for dragons, and having their cattle graze away from settlements and preferably spread out across large distances. Their cities are carved in the side of mountains, and they are skilled mountaineers and stoneworkers.

When dragons near the end of their lives (though "near" is a blurry concept when you live over a thousand years) they start a long migration that takes them all across the world, up to an isolated island in the frozen, polar wastes, there to die among the bones of all their kind before them. Nobody really knows why they have that instinct. The migration takes them through a large swathe of settled lands, as any shorter route would have them cross thousands of miles of naked ocean at a time (which they aren't able to do - they need to eat, drink and sleep like any other living creature). Sometimes people resist them, and those battles are the stuff of legend; most of the time they scamble to safety as few are able to threaten a dragon that has lived hundreds of years.

In particularly rare occasions, many dragons of comparable age undertake their final migration at the same time. This usually causes crippling damage to the areas they pass through (also, creates plot hooks :smallwink:), and explain the relatively sparse population density in some areas which would otherwise be quite attractive.


So basically, think of dragons in my world as carnivorous flying whales.
Amusing description for an impressive idea, though difficult to integrate into a setting that doesn't have them.

Well, this is an idea, then. You have the Bird and the Lizard, and the four elements, which I guess comprise your "primordial" class of deities. Why not have the Dragons exist, not as a vast race of monsters or highly intelligent immortals, but as rare symbols of compromise? Consider this:

You've now set them up as unique set pieces; rather than an entire race, there are only the four, physical incarnations of the will of their deities. And you can play them how you like - perhaps one turned his environs into a scorched wasteland, and now sleeps beneath burning sands; perhaps one created a vast fertile plain, and the people of that land built a temple around him and pay tribute; perhaps one simply swims endlessly beneath the waves, the apex sea predator. Or perhaps they simply faded from the world, with only fables and carvings telling of their once-existence. You can use them or not use them; they become part of the lore, not quite gods, but more like legendary figures or heroes. If your PCs happen across one, what happens happens, but if they don't, they're simply part of the world's lore.

Sounds really neat.

GoblinGilmartin
2015-01-22, 07:36 PM
Well, this is an idea, then. You have the Bird and the Lizard, and the four elements, which I guess comprise your "primordial" class of deities. Why not have the Dragons exist, not as a vast race of monsters or highly intelligent immortals, but as rare symbols of compromise? Consider this:

You've now set them up as unique set pieces; rather than an entire race, there are only the four, physical incarnations of the will of their deities. And you can play them how you like - perhaps one turned his environs into a scorched wasteland, and now sleeps beneath burning sands; perhaps one created a vast fertile plain, and the people of that land built a temple around him and pay tribute; perhaps one simply swims endlessly beneath the waves, the apex sea predator. Or perhaps they simply faded from the world, with only fables and carvings telling of their once-existence. You can use them or not use them; they become part of the lore, not quite gods, but more like legendary figures or heroes. If your PCs happen across one, what happens happens, but if they don't, they're simply part of the world's lore.

I like this as well. I've honestly never been great at making back story sound like a story. I once wrote my own Oriental Adventures setting, and I painted it in very clear, yet broad strokes, and one of my friends took what I told him and turned it into a proper fable.

I'll probably consider something along these lines.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-22, 07:42 PM
Why not steal an idea from Dark Sun? See, dragons...Aren't really dragons. Magic's gone a bit kooky, and does weird things to mages (Or sorcerers, if you prefer). Very powerful mages run the risk of turning into one for a short period of time...And a dragon isn't evil, but they do get some troubling urges and require a whole lot of food.

Hazrond
2015-01-22, 10:48 PM
Why not steal an idea from Dark Sun? See, dragons...Aren't really dragons. Magic's gone a bit kooky, and does weird things to mages (Or sorcerers, if you prefer). Very powerful mages run the risk of turning into one for a short period of time...And a dragon isn't evil, but they do get some troubling urges and require a whole lot of food.

oooh, now this is an interesting idea, i have recently been watching a game called Xenoblade Chronicles and it has a similar concept that i thought was cool there are a race of very long-lived people called the High Entia, they are sort of like elves with mysterious ancient tech, when they are exposed to a large amount of ether (which is essentially life energy) theyy turn into creatures called Telethia that are basically reskinned dragons down to the spellcasting and all Sorry if you own the game and i came off condescending or something