Swordsage Dip

[FocusWolf413]

I have a 4th level unseelie fey Githzerai Swordsage. My stats are Str 12, dex 28, con 14, int 12, Wis 18, cha 10 and I specialize in Shadow Hand. If I do a dip, should I do monk, psychic warrior, or something else? I don't want to dip more than 2 levels. I use the ToB errata.

Edit: My feats are adaptive style, shadow blade, and weapon finesse. I got one bonus feat.

[Telonius]

Do you have access to the Craven feat, and would the DM allow your stances to qualify for it? Rogue (or some other class or PrC that grants sneak attack, like Assassin) might be a good fit.

[FocusWolf413]

Oh, I should've mentioned that my next couple feats are craven and darkstalker.

I don't feel I have all that much to gain from rogue. 4 levels is too much to invest for uncanny dodge, considering it's a weapon enhancement. Evasion is pretty nice, but I could get it from monk. Boosting sneak attack is okay, but it comes at an expense to my BAB. I would rather hit accurately. Assassin requires intelligence, which I don't exactly have. I could ask my DM if he could allow it to advance maneuvers instead, but I doubt it.

I'm not exactly worried about doing enough damage per second. I just think that some bonus feats or abilities (psionics, evasion, etc) could be useful.

[Red Fel]

I'm not exactly worried about doing enough damage per second. I just think that some bonus feats or abilities (psionics, evasion, etc) could be useful.

I think you're right. And PsyWar gets you both.

Now, admittedly, it gives you bubkes in terms of PP, and a paltry number of powers known, but they are something, and that something is a slight extra edge. Even with only 1st-level powers, you get access to some useful buffs, and your Wis will help you eke out some extra PP for when you need to augment. (Remember that you can't spend more on a power than your ML!) More than that, the bonus feats are very helpful - they're also strictly better than the bonus feats a Fighter gets, since they can be either Fighter or Psionic feats. Further, if you have PP, you can use Concentration to become Psionically Focused (without spending your PP) and take 15 on a subsequent Concentration check (such as those used by Diamond Mind maneuvers). I seem to recall a ToB feat that lets you become Focused when you initiate a maneuver, so doubleplus bonus.

A one- or two-level dip of PsyWar won't make you overpoweringly awesome, but it will add just a smidge of extra versatility to your build.

Now, with respect to Monk, I'd avoid that dip. All it gets you is unarmed progression (which isn't an issue for you if you use weapons or the Unarmed Swordsage adaptation) and AC bonus (which probably doesn't stack with your Swordsage AC bonus). Adds nothing amazing, really.

[Telonius]

Okay, no need for Rogue then. (I only mentioned it because many DMs don't allow stances to meet the Craven feat's Sneak Attack requirement). The only advantage that a two-level dip of Monk would have over a two-level dip of Psychic Warrior would be a couple of skill points and good Reflex and Will saves - but your reflex and will should be pretty high from your Swordsage levels already, so not much of a loss there. I'd go with Psychic Warrior.

[Rebel7284]

Dipping Cleric is usually a good choice. There is even a handbook about dipping cleric 1.

If you want to, you can then dip crusader and prestige to Ruby Knight Vindicator for extra actions.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think Rogue is a great dip for Swordsage (or vice-versa), but not Sneak Attack Rogue. You get enough sneak attack from a stance to qualify for the most important SA feats (Craven and Staggering Strike) anyway. It's nice for Martial Rogue, which replaces SA w/ Fighter bonus feat progression. A 1 or 2 level dip gets you a feat each of those levels plus lots of skills plus trapfinding (which could be swapped for other stuff), and level 2 is Evasion. If you go 4 levels, you get another feat and Uncanny Dodge...and Penetrating Strike to make EVERYTHING susceptible to your SA (and thus your craven and staggering strike, though many will still have immunity to the latter). No matter if you do 1 or 4, you only lose 1 BAB.

I think a 2 or 4 level dip is ideal. Both due to the breakpoints (stuff you get by that point) and because w/ even levels you lose as much initiator progression as you do on odd level dips anyway.

[FocusWolf413]

So it's either 2 levels of martial rogue or psionic warrior. I've heard compelling arguments for each. Really, it's a matter of 2 psionic abilities, +1 bab, and a couple more HP vs skill points, penetrating strike, and evasion. I think I'll go with rogue unless I can get a more compelling argument otherwise. I'll do one more level of swordsage (5th), then 2 lvls of rogue, then 13 more swordsage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I ask why you are wanting a dip now? Wait another level, get Swordsage 5, then go into Umbral Disciple from Magic of Incarnum. Being a PrC, it gives full Initiator progression rather than 1/2 like most classes do, and three levels nets you some extremely useful things to you. First off, you get +1d6 sneak attack, which is never a bad thing, but more importantly, you get Embrace of Shadow, which nets you a concealment miss chance AND Hide In Plain Sight that is always on. It only requires some skill ranks in skills you probably already have (8 in Hide/Listen, 4 in Concentration, and 2 in Knowledge (Arcana)... all of which are on your skill list). The only tricky part qualifying for is an Essentia Pool of at least 1.

The other advantage is that if you can get up to 5 essentia, because of essentia caps are based on character level, not class level, you can eventually get a 50% miss chance plus HiPS. Which ain't too shabby for a defensive ability from a three-level dip.

[FocusWolf413]

There's two problems with that:
1) We don't do incarnum.
2) The unofficial errata fixes the "all prcs get full initiator levels" line. That line was clearly a mistake and was supposed to refer to ToB prcs. It just doesn't make sense that a Shadowcraft Mage or an Archmage would know how to do maneuvers as well as a person who trained to do them.

Edit: I already said I would wait until level 5. I kind of just want some bonus feats and evasion before it becomes an issue. However, I don't think my DM will throw many wizards at the party.
Also, dipping rogue will hurt my fort save, which is already pretty weak. Maybe I should stay in swordsage.

[gorfnab]

So it's either 2 levels of martial rogue or psionic warrior.
Split the difference: Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

[FocusWolf413]

That isn't exactly splitting the difference. I get evasion, but I was mostly looking at the bonus feats, which this doesn't get. The power points are based off of intelligence, which doesn't exactly help. This would weaken my fort saves and not provide what I'm looking for. The monk is looking even more appealing now.

[Rebel7284]

You get enough sneak attack from a stance to qualify for the most important SA feats (Craven and Staggering Strike) anyway.

This is incorrect.

Craven
Prerequisite
cannot be immune to fear, Sneak attack class feature

Staggering strike also requires you to sacrifice at least 3d6 dice to have an effect.

[FocusWolf413]

This is incorrect.

Craven
Prerequisite
cannot be immune to fear, Sneak attack class feature

Staggering strike also requires you to sacrifice at least 3d6 dice to have an effect.
From CAd:
You can deliver a wound that hampers an opponent’s movement. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6, sneak attack. Benefit: If you deal damage with a melee sneak attack, you can also deliver a wound that limits your foe’s mobility. For 1 round (or until the target is the beneficiary of a DC 15 Heal check or any magical healing that restores at least 1 hit point, whichever comes if its nonlethal damage doesn’t exactly equal its current hit points. A target can resist this effect by making a successful Fortitude save (DC equal to damage dealt). Multiple staggering strikes on the same creature do not stack. This feat has no effect on creatures not subject to sneak attack damage.

Also, we allow Craven to work in our group. We're lax with RAW as long as it creates a fun game and RAI is followed.