TMNT vs OOTS

[V Junior]

Okay, I was thinking. You know the new Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie? Well, I was wondering... what would happen if the TMNT fought the OOTS? Who would win? Would the awesome ninja-ness of the TMNT win, or would the sheer LOLness of the OOTS win?

Anyway, post your thoughts here (I'd prefer it if you converted the TMNT to DnD rules). POLL!

[Glome]

Well I haven't seen the movie, but going off what I've seen of the TMNT from other media is that wouldn't stand a chance. OOTS would win hands down because the TMNT share an afflication with several other heros from the same time period such as the A-Team and MacGyver, namely they incapable of actually killing anyone. Since OOTS doesn't have any problem killing opponents, plus the fact that they magic on their side, there is no way that anyone but OOTS would win this one.

You should have at least added Usagi Yojimbo to the turtles line-up so they had someone capable of chopping opponents in half.

[V Junior]

Well I haven't seen the movie, but going off what I've seen of the TMNT from other media is that wouldn't stand a chance. OOTS would win hands down because the TMNT share an afflication with several other heros from the same time period such as the A-Team and MacGyver, namely they incapable of actually killing anyone. Since OOTS doesn't have any problem killing opponents, plus the fact that they magic on their side, there is no way that anyone but OOTS would win this one.

You should have at least added Usagi Yojimbo to the turtles line-up so they had someone capable of chopping opponents in half.

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

I mean if the TMNT COULD kill people. And don't forget; as ninjas, they're probably rogues (maybe even shadowdancers), which means Hide ranks and Sneak Attack. Also, their shells mean a really good AC, and, as amphibians, they have DR (amphibians can regenerate lost limbs). They'd probably have Rings of Jumping, evening the score with Belkar's RoJ+20. And they'll have ranks in dodge, Evaision (maybe Improved Eviasion), and also decent Reflex save bonuses, which will give V a headache.

So looking at it, Haley would be too busy screaming about Damage Reduction to shoot the turtles, V would not hit quite so often, and the turtles would be jumping through shadows to attack, then jumping back through (that is, if we allow shadows to be randomly scattered around the arena). Yeah, perhaps Roy could overcome the turtles' DR, but they would be doing more damage to him then he would be to him. So THERE!

[Luklan]

V probably has more than just Reflex Based Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) on hand. I'd like to see the TMNT do all that jumping and ninja stuff while blinded. Durkon can probably lay down a few Command Words as well to even things up.

Haley can scream about Damage Reduction all she wants, I see nothing wrong with shooting them in the freaking kneecaps.

So THERE!

[Threeshades]

:smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

I mean if the TMNT COULD kill people. And don't forget; as ninjas, they're probably rogues (maybe even shadowdancers), which means Hide ranks and Sneak Attack.
Or they have the ninja class from Complete Warrior


Also, their shells mean a really good AC, and, as amphibians, they have DR (amphibians can regenerate lost limbs).
Turtles are reptiles. Reptiles can only regrow lost tails usually (some cant even do that, turtles for example)
And I somehow doubt that an amphibian could regenerate a lost limb.

[Demented]

The turtles would win.

OOTS-fandom aside, it would just be more amusing that way.

I'm sorry Varsuvius, but... Pizza > Doilies.

[EvilJames]

Well it would depend on if we are talking about the turtles from the cartoons and the comic licenses that come from it, or the original mirage comics, in which the turtles did kill people. If it's the latter it would be a close fight

also some amphibians can regrow lost limbs it just takes a while, but you are correct that the turtles, being reptiles would not benefit from this anyway.

[Luklan]

I still say the magic spells trump it...

Power Word: Blind
Mass Enlarge Person
Mass Bull's Strength
Mass Bear's Endurance
Suggestion

There are a load of other spells V has, and I really think dropping a few Blindness spells on a few Turtles, making a Suggestion to one to hide in his shell, and casting Endurance, Strength and Mass Enlarge Person on Roy, Durkon and Belkar..

That's how you turn the tide of a battle ;)

[Nerd-o-rama]

First, I would like to say: best. Crossover. Ever. Seriously, this made my day.

Second, V Junior, despite the 80's cartoon theme song, turtles are reptiles, not amphibians.


And I somehow doubt that an amphibian could regenerate a lost limb.
Newts are amphibians (class Lissamphibia), and they can regrow several parts of their body. Though I'm getting that from Wikipedia, so it might just be tails, which I've seen in person.

And as long as we're being pedantic, Ninja are from Complete Adventurer.

[EvilJames]

Well presumably the turtles are fairly high level as well, since they have been around a while so the spells are not a guaranteed success, and being ninja they would be used to fighting in the dark, so the blindnes spell wouldn't be as effective. The OOTS biggest advantage is that they outnumber the turtles by two (assuming that Master Splinter is not taking part, but that is a whole other kettle of fish)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well yeah, if Splinter's there, well...it depends on if it's cartoon/video game version where he gets kidnapped fairly regularly, or comics/movie version where he one-shots the Shredder with a judo flip.

I vote for the latter, in which case the Order's screwed.

[M._A._Foxfire]

V probably has more than just Reflex Based Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) on hand. I'd like to see the TMNT do all that jumping and ninja stuff while blinded. Durkon can probably lay down a few Command Words as well to even things up.

Haley can scream about Damage Reduction all she wants, I see nothing wrong with shooting them in the freaking kneecaps.

So THERE!

Or eye... Problem is, they're superfast ninja critters. But yeah, four against six (seven, counting Blackwing) ... Better add Splinter to even things up. Maybe April. *vaguely remembers April smashing seven kinds of heck out of swarming robots with some sort of household implement* She could also serve as a distraction.

Depends on where they're all fighting, really...

[Baalzebub]

The OOTS only needs one guy to win

:vaarsuvius:

[Jayabalard]

Well yeah, if Splinter's there, well...it depends on if it's cartoon/video game version where he gets kidnapped fairly regularly, or comics/movie version where he one-shots the Shredder with a judo flip.

I vote for the latter, in which case the Order's screwed.I agree.

Also, the turtles appeared in TMNT & OS, which was a palladium system; They were mid level, and splinter was several levels higher. They wound up with quite a lot of SDC from keeping their turtle shells in the mutation.

they also have a van... does the OoTS have a van?

[Woot Spitum]

Don't make me pick.:smallfrown: I like them both.

I would like to see the OOTS summon the Ninja Turtles as Greater Planar Allies.:smallamused:

[StudlyDuck]

For those of you using blindness spells in your pro-OoTS strategies, let's not forget that in the first TMNT movie, Leo beat the other three while blindfolded.

[Gnome Barbarian]

Id have to say that the TMNT would win this. If we are looking at them in terms of the DnD universe they would be ninjas from the Complete Warrior. Giving them ki abilities ontop of Sudden Strike Damage. Also to make it fair 6 vs. 6 you would have to through Splinter and Casey Jones in on the turtles side which would leave no doubt in my mind that the TMNT would win this matchup.

[fwiffo]

What's next? OOTS versus A-team? OOTS against Gilligan's island crew? OOTS matchup against Different Strokes?

[Pronounceable]

TMNT wins, hands down.

The turtles are my first love, not even sensible arguement can turn me against them.

Na na na na na naa, I'm not listening...

So THERE!

[ObadiahtheSlim]

It would probably have to be the turtles + Splinter + Casey Jones.

[Darkxarth]

As ninjas, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have both Evasion and Improved Evasion, and possibly Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as well. So, a number of V's spells are survivable, if not plain useless, right there. Meanwhile, their awesome shells provide a superb AC bonus and likely ome nice DR as well. Haley, without surprise, doesn't deal that much damage per arrow, not enough to overcome a good DR on a regular basis anyway. As far as actual combat...

Leonardo vs. Roy
Leaders of their respective team, and both having to maintain control on two ridiculous and angry teammates.

If Leo were armed with only one katana, then maybe Roy would win. But with Leo as a two-weapon fighter, and with dual katanas (probably some racial Superb Two-Weapon Fighting bonus feat going on in this family), I don't think Roy stands much of a chance. He's not exactly optimized, decent Con score and above-average Dex. Whereas Leo has high Dexterity, decent Str and decent Con, and enough good rolls left to have good all-around mental stats as well.

Raphael vs. Belkar
Both angry and violent, and both wielding relatively small weapons compared to other members of their teams.

Raph's sais give him a bonus to Disarming Belkar's daggers (which are easy to disarm anyway, being small, light weapons). Both can throw their weapons at opponents, but once unarmed, Raph's ninja skills would beat Belkar's Halfling Barbarian attacks any day.

Donatello vs. Durkon
They are the steady thinkers of their teams, mostly. Roy looks to Durkon for support and wisdom, while Leo looks to Don when Raph and Mike start fighting each other.

Donatello can hold his own in a fight, sure, but his skills definitely center on his intelligence and inventing, whereas Durkon is a solid warrior, in addition to his magic healing. I'm going to have to give this fight to Durkon over Don; I just can't see how he'd beat Thor's Might Durkon.

Michaelangelo vs. Elan
The jokers of the groups, both tend to get in the way on a regular basis, though Mike's screwups tend to lead to victory while Elan's have a history of just plain screwing things up (though there are several exceptions).

Even with Elan's new halfway competence, I think Mike's still got this fight wrapped up. I don't think I could describe this fight with any accuracy, so I'm not going to try.

That leaves Durkon, V, & Haley vs. Leo, Raph, and Mike. Leo beats Durkon, Raph beats V, and Mike beats Haley. End of battle.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion.

[Kreistor]

Durkon casts Resist Energy(Fire) on everyone. V casts invisibility on Durkon, so that the TMNT can't interfere or find him. V then cuts loose with Fireballs and doesn't care about avoiding the OotS. Durkon uses Mass Cure spells to keep the OotS on their feet until the TMNT begin to fall, when he can switch to single target Cures. From there, it's a slow road to defeat for the Turtles.

[Jayabalard]

Donatello vs. Durkon
Donatello can hold his own in a fight, sure, but his skills definitely center on his intelligence and inventing, whereas Durkon is a solid warrior, in addition to his magic healing. I'm going to have to give this fight to Durkon over Don; I just can't see how he'd beat Thor's Might Durkon.Don't forget that Don is big into tech... that could give him a bit of an edge, even a "Thor's Might" Durkon might have trouble with a "Van Driving" Don.

Also, OoTS has abysmal spot checks, and since the TMNT are ninja, and it's almost assured that they'd get surprise; I think V would be out before ever getting to act.

[Darkxarth]

Don't forget that Don is big into tech... that could give him a bit of an edge, even a "Thor's Might" Durkon might have trouble with a "Van Driving" Don.

Also, OoTS has abysmal spot checks, and since the TMNT are ninja, and it's almost assured that they'd get surprise.

I was giving OotS the advantage in my setup by not adding Splinter or Casey Jones or counting the Turtle Van. But if we even the numbers by adding Splinter and Casey Jones, it's not even a fight, it's a slaughter. The Turtles are just too tough for OotS to beat, if they were just warriors and not ninjas, then I'd say OotS could win, but that ninja training screws over some of their best moves (V's Evocation spells & Haley's Sneak Attack) and lets the Turtles destroy everyone's favorite stick-figure D&D-based webcomic protagonists.

[Kreistor]

Ah, here's another one... V casts Fire Shield on the group. Now the TMNT can't avoid being hurt by hitting the OotS, but Durkon can undo the damage the TMNT deal in trying to take the OotS down.

[Reptilus]

TMNT share an afflication with several other heros from the same time period such as the A-Team and MacGyver, namely they incapable of actually killing anyone.
You're joking, right? In the very first issue of TMNT ever, they kill dozens of people; they wipe out anentire street gang and kill a small army of foot, to start with.

I'm voting turtles, they've simply killed far more powerful opponents with greater ease. Plus, if we're going by the current continuity, Raphael is a rapdily regenerating genetic mutation of unbelievable size.

Kreistor: The TMNT fight opponents they can't see or fight blind on so many occasions, invisibility doesn't even matter.

If we're talking the cartoon TMNT, OotS might take it. If we're talking about the TMNT from Eastman and Laird's original comic books, OotS doesn't stand a chance. Belkar is the only one who might be able to fight equally with them, but Raphael can out-rage him any day, while Leo and Don can simply stay out of his reach with lightning agility. Haley, as a rogue, has essentially lesser versions of half the TMNT's abilities. As a warrior, Roy has lesser or maybe equal versions of the other half of their abilities. Elan's Rapier couldn't hold up in durability or power to nunchaku, and is about equal to them in speed and manoueverability, Don is intelligent enough to keep him at bay, Raph will break the rapier with one sai as he has katana ( a sturdier sword)frequently, and Leo has two swords for Elan's one, even if he misses a few parries, he'll still get many more hits, that with a more damaging sword against Elan's soft flesh and a less damaging sword against his thick skin and shell, each of his hits will hurt more. V's casting will last about as long as it takes for a Shuriken to find its way into his/her neck. He might get off a quickened spell that the turtles will probably make the save for, anyway. Durkon and any of his opponents would fight a battle of attrition, with most of his hammer's slower blows dodged, but healing or ignoring most hits on him with dwarven con, however, by the time the rest of the battles had finished, this would still be going, leaving the turtles, who vanquished the rest of the party, to finish him off easily as a group.

EDIT: Kreistor, supposing V lives long enough, being a frail wizard, to even cast the spell, the turtles can simply go into hiding (what does the third letter in TMNT stand for, I ask you?) until the spell wears off. The turtles can simply disappear from plain sight. They do it numerous times to numerous foes. If the OotS started to take the upper hand, they'd flee until an opening presented itself, and launch back in to deal incredible damage and pop out for another opportunity, if they had to.

[Jayabalard]

@ Reptilus: Its amazing how many people only know them through the cartoon or through the movies... The original comic characters were much rougher

[Gnome Barbarian]

I would like to add that not only would they get a Nat Armor from their shell but they wear no armor on top of that so as Ninjas they would get their wisdom bonus to their AC.

[mikeejimbo]

Also, their shells mean a really good AC, and, as amphibians, they have DR (amphibians can regenerate lost limbs).

What does Regeneration have to do with Damage Resistance?

[FatJose]

Look, we should make this fair for everybody. Alot of people have no knowledge of Original Turtles so lets make it OotS vs. CartoonTurtles

Also, to be fair, lets make it Cartoon OotS. But since there isnt a cartoon Oots lets first decide what OotS in cartoon would be like if handled by the same people who handled the Turtles franchise.

First off, now they always fight nonflesh constructs and other nonliving things, zombies and skeletons are allowable for killing. Everyone else just get owies and go to prison.


:elan: Keep the same. Use him as the Hype-man. Give catchphrase. Look into releasing Banjo toys. Make millions. Also, make him the leader.

:roy: Keep him the same. Less cursing and no bloodshed. His father wasn't killed, he's just kidnapped. And he is trapped inside the magic crown or sumthin'. Also he's from the streets.

:belkar: Make him more like the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings.(I'm thinking more like Merry) Keep a lil' of his original personality by making him a funny, rude wisecracker. Also less killing.


:durkon: Keep same. Remove the religious undertones...now while we're at it, lets remove him as a common character and restrict him to guest appearances...He's not very marketable

:vaarsuvius: Rename her "V" or maybe "VeeVee" or "Varry." Did I say "her"?
Well thats because there aren't enough ladies in OotS. We need something for the girls and since V is an unconfirmed gender and we dont need any kids asking questions about trannies....
"Possible :belkar: X :vaarsuvius: "

:haley: Change personality to Hip Spunky Valley Girl.

There. Now that that's done. We can continue.

[Kreistor]

EDIT: Kreistor, supposing V lives long enough, being a frail wizard, to even cast the spell, the turtles can simply go into hiding (what does the third letter in TMNT stand for, I ask you?) until the spell wears off. The turtles can simply disappear from plain sight. They do it numerous times to numerous foes. If the OotS started to take the upper hand, they'd flee until an opening presented itself, and launch back in to deal incredible damage and pop out for another opportunity, if they had to.

And the OotS'ers are stupid? You're assuming the OotS doesn't heal or enact any plans of their own to deal with this new enemy. Basically, you're playing favorites. The TMNT have all these cool abilities and so they automatically win because they always auto-win in the comics. That's all you're really saying.

I can say the same thing about the OotS. They regularly beat everything that comes their way, unless the story needs them to lose. Thus, if the story needs them to beat the TMNT, they will. When the TMNT run and come back in ambush, they'll hit only an illusion created by V, revealing their position and allowing the OotS to jump them in turn.

Ultimately, the TMNT are limited. The OotS brings a much broader array of abilities to the table that can be combined in more effective ways than the melee-centric skills of the TMNT. Sorry, but no, I cannot agree with you. OotS, hands down.

[Kreistor]

Original TMNT were more pragmatic, more confident, less light hearted, mroe serious. Weapons caused blood, which is disallowed in cartoons. They used stealth and surprise more often, and "thought" more often than they "talked". They just flat out seemed more competent and less silly.

But they were still limited to their weapons. They didn't have magical abilities and couldn't make a duplicate dummmy out of a log, like Naruto. Basically, they are melee-centric characters with lots of stealth and infiltration skills.

[Optimystik]

Also, to be fair, lets make it Cartoon OotS. But since there isnt a cartoon Oots lets first decide what OotS in cartoon would be like if handled by the same people who handled the Turtles franchise.

Dear God... tell me, do you work for a company called 4Kids? All you have to do is add a cheesy generic hip-hop track and "creatively edit" all the violence so that the Order only ends up destroying undead and constructs, and it'll be complete...

[JonathanC]

Okay, lets look at this tactically, and break down the team person by person.

Leadership:
Leonardo vs. Roy Greenhilt - Roy has about ten years of experience on Leonardo (Leo is usually said to be about 17 at the oldest, while Roy is 28), and Roy went to Fighter College. He has a distinct advantage in tactical experience, and in terms of overall team management, he has managed to succeed under less than ideal conditions: he has to deal with Belkar AND Elan as disruptive forces, while Leonardo generally only gets trouble from Raphael.
Advantage: Roy

Hot-Headed Combat Specialist:
Raphael vs. Belkar - The hallmark of any hot-headed badass is running off by themselves and getting into trouble. Belkar ran off and tried to solo Miko, and nearly got himself (intentionally) killed in the process. Raphael, on the other hand, has had a reasonably successful solo career when he runs off by himself.
Advantage: Raphael

The Brains:
Donatello vs. Varsuvius - It's all about results. Every team needs its "brain" - the guy who brings in the "X factor" that puts them over the top against their enemies. Donatello has come up with some awesome stuff in his time, including a turtle blimp in the original cartoon series, the turle van, and turtle communicators. Varsuvius, on the other hand, came up with an original spell that destroyed an entire magic stadium (in Origin of PCs) in only a few seconds, has soloed three Titanium elementals, and managed to hold a wall breach with only 13 soldiers. Donatello is good, but Varsuvius is just better.
Advantage: Varsuvius

The Fun-Loving Goofball:
Michaelangelo vs. Elan - Popular with the ladies, easily distracted, and prone to driving their friends up a wall. Michaelangelo and Elan have a lot in common. With Elan's newfound combat prowess, it might seem as though he'd come through this on top, but while being useful in combat is a new and novel concept to Elan, it's been a way of life for Michaelangelo. Anyone who has played the videogames knows that he had one of the best attacks, with a combination of range, speed, and damage. And in comic book canon, he was one of the more talented of the four brothers when it came to combat; if he wasn't such a flake, he'd likely be the best of them. He's Ken to Leonardo's Ryu.
Advantage: Michaelangelo

But lest we forget, the OOTS still have Haley and Durkon to bring into play before they have to start dipping into reserves (like Celia, Hinjo, Thievery guy, or Unnatural Wizardry girl), while the Turtles are tapped on on regular members and have to call in cavalry (Casey Jones, Splinter, and April).

Sorry Turtle fans, but I have to give this fight to the OOTS.

[EvilJames]

Saying that they only win because the story requires them to is a poor way to go about this discussion, since both sides have that advantage and so both sides are required to win, so the universe collapeses unless the writers come up with some half-baked cheeseball way for both to win and thus save the universe.:biggrin:
Basicly we can't use that to justify either victory over the other. If the story requires that the turtles can cut through an army of Foot clan then they can, if the story requirse the OOTS to cut through an army of goblins then they can, and they can bring that ability to this fight.

Stealth gives the Turtles a major advantage as they would likly be the first to strike, but V does give the OOTS an advantage (even if it's not an instant win advantage) as the turtles would not likely considere him/her a threat until (s)he started casting spells. Haley and Belkar can fight on the turtles terms to a degree since they are both stealthy as well. I'm not saying the OOTS will go down easy I just think the turtles would pull it off, but one minor slip up could easily swing the fight the other way.

[Innis Cabal]

why? Do people enjoy making others hurt? The fight would be simple, a couple of fireballs and their done. "Make your refelx saves turtles...oh you dont have them, tough cookies 10d6 points of damage GG"

[GoC]

One word: CoDzilla

[Jayabalard]

why? Do people enjoy making others hurt? The fight would be simple, a couple of fireballs and their done. "Make your refelx saves turtles...oh you dont have them, tough cookies 10d6 points of damage GG"Lets not be more silly than the situation requires... either you convert them into D&D terms, which would give them reflex saves (and probably evasion), or you convert OoTS to palladium and use the TMNT&OS versions of the turtles.

Not that reflex saves are likely to be needed, since the OoTS has abysmal spot skills, and as ninjas they stand a good chance of taking V by surprise and taking him out before she can act.

[Kreistor]

Not that reflex saves are likely to be needed, since the OoTS has abysmal spot skills, and as ninjas they stand a good chance of taking V by surprise and taking him out before she can act.

Like previously stated, why would they take V out with no visible evidence that V is a threat at all?

[Jayabalard]

Like previously stated, why would they take V out with no visible evidence that V is a threat at all?I think simply observing her would let the turtles know that he's dangerous.

Plus, even before she casts, it's obvious that he's a wizard, and even without ninja training, teenagers from a parallel earth would know that you take out the wizard and cleric first. You don't have to watch very many movies, read many comic books or play very many video games to learn that.

[Hushdawg]

TMNT basically have a lot of Monk-class abilities with weapons thrown in (unless we were talking original B&W comic TMNT, which we aren't).

Considering the fact that Belkar was able to make a monk cry and completely defeat him with insults I'd go with TMNT.

As the OP stated; convert TMNT to D&D not OOTS to TMNT.

Given the feats and such in the Ninja class I don't feel like it fits with what the TMNT actually DO (Ninja in name only?).

[EvilJames]

fireballs would not likely come into play as the fight would in all likelyhood begin at close range when the turtles reveal themselves and attack. Fireballs into the melee are not a good thing unless all your friends have evasion, and if we are converting the TMNT to 3rd ed then they likely have evasion as well.

[Kreistor]

Doh... I did have a fact wrong... Post deleted as factually false.


I think simply observing her would let the turtles know that he's dangerous.

Plus, even before she casts, it's obvious that he's a wizard, and even without ninja training, teenagers from a parallel earth would know that you take out the wizard and cleric first. You don't have to watch very many movies, read many comic books or play very many video games to learn that.

You're presuming an environment in which the TMNT is allowed to Hide. You're also presuming that the OotS can't recognize the terrain as capable of hiding random encounters, and therefore doing nothing to prevent ambushes. You're also assuming this can occur over a long enough period that they can catch V casting.

And you are presuming that the TMNT can make the leap from "smart guy that can do magic tricks" to "nuclear missile launching platform".

That's a lot of assumptions. If you give either side an environmental advantage, then of course they will win. It's not a level playing field.

[Glome]

Alright, I'll explain why the OOTS would then if we're assuming both sides were going to for the kill. The simple fact is that TMNT are all well, ninjas. OOTS is a team composed of members with different classes abilities that compliment each other. Even given that they are roughly the same levels in transfered to dnd stats, the team with the diverse abilities is going to win.

So unless we went with Palladium rules and that ruleset make ninjas super bad ass compared to any other class (unlikely), the OOTS would still mop the floor with the ninja turtles. Adding Splinter and Casey Jones to the TMNT would help, but they would still be 5 ninjas and a fighter against a fighter, rouge, ranger/barbarian, wizard, cleric and bard. Even given that OOTS isn't as optimized as it could be, TMNT still wouldn't stand a decent chance of winning.

Edit: A few people brought up a good point that there abilities are probably closer to be translated to the monk class. Either way, their training is very similiar to one another and only Casey Jones would be of a different class.

[nothingclever]

Plain and simple OotS is variety of classes while TMNT are all rogues or multiclass rogue warriors maybe even a few levels of monk or a prestige class.

The question is would OotS more diverse group be able to beat a group fighter/rogues of equal level?

[AyuVince]

Lame cartoon turtles from a horrible, horrible decade? Lose. If you want to pit an 80's icon against the OotS, why not try MacGyver? (Oh, the Order would SO lose against a guy who builds nuclear missiles out of paperclips and gum)

[EvilJames]

I'm not presuming anything more than neccassery being ninja means they don't require a lot to hide in and the OOTS doesn't typicly take precautopns against suprise and when they do they typicly get suprised (they are D&D characters after all so they only make such precautions when they suspect that the dm is up to something or had previous encounters with something and know it is following them) but like I said niether side goes down easy (unless we are indead talking cartoon turtles, cause then they might) also I'm assuming the turtle are a little higher level since they have been around longer

[Jayabalard]

You're also presuming that the OotS can't recognize the terrain as capable of hiding random encounters, and therefore doing nothing to prevent ambushes. You're also assuming this can occur over a long enough period that they can catch V casting.Are we reading the same (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) comic strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0152.html)? Where "I think I failed a Spot check" is a not an uncommon phrase, and a single arrow is enough to make V fizzle?

The OoTS is most vulnerable to the type of attacks that the TMNT are capable of.


And you are presuming that the TMNT can make the leap from "smart guy that can do magic tricks" to "nuclear missile launching platform".hmm... I had no martial training whatsover, and in my teens, even before I started playing RPGs, I knew that you take out the wizard first or he puts a world of hurt on you. Since iirc they've had encounters with people using magic in the past in addition to growing up in the later 20th century where the wizard nuker is a known stereotype, I see no reason why they would not be aware of that.

[EvilJames]

they were more 90's icons because of the cartoon and toys than 80's since most of that was in the 90's

[Gnome Barbarian]

I feel they would be fully aware for one reason because if you are going to have them fight you need to seem them as being on even terms. That means the are all D&D based and live in the same world. So if the TMNT are in a D&D Fantasy world then they know magic is real and what it can do. The main arguement i see here is that V cast spells and they wouldnt be prepared but in my scenerio which is even footing they would be.

[Kreistor]

Are we reading the same comic strip? Where "I think I failed a Spot check" is a not an uncommon phrase, and a single arrow is enough to make V fizzle?

You have to Ready an Action to shoot that (or throw that shuriken, which is more appropriate). No attacking that round. You've just given up all of the two weapon and iterative attacks the TMNT have, greatly reducing their power.


The OoTS is most vulnerable to the type of attacks that the TMNT are capable of.

No more than anyone else with a sword.


hmm... I had no martial training whatsover, and in my teens, even before I started playing RPGs, I knew that you take out the wizard first or he puts a world of hurt on you. Since iirc they've had encounters with people using magic in the past in addition to growing up in the later 20th century where the wizard nuker is a known stereotype, I see no reason why they would not be aware of that.

Yea, the first time you hear someone talking about magic in a strange world, you suspend everything you know about magic in our world (ie. sleight of hand) and think "Oh, they can kill me with a thought." Sorry, that's completely unrealistic and an enormous leap of intuition.

[Deuce]

Can't imagine the TMNT are going to have very good will saves. 2 rounds of Durkon and V casting Hold Person and it's all over. Even if say, Leo makes a save, he now faces 6 to 1 odds. Belkar, Roy and a Thor's Might enhanced Durkon go straight in, Haley goes for head-shot sneak-attacks, Elan sings and V adds some magic missiles.

[PsyBlade]

Durkon may not have Roy's HP, but he's got enough hp + healing spells to last long enough to keep the big guns going. It won't be a clear cut victory until the healer or a Turtle falls. Even if Durkon falls, V can use Owl's Wisdom on Belkar, and maybe fetch healing scrolls (or have Belkar do it) for Belkar to use on Durkon. So I vote OotS, but it's a close fight. Very close.
edit: I'm certain Leo and Raph have high will saves. Donny should have decent will, but Mikey, heh he's out quickly if they don't take out V quickly.

[Jayabalard]

You have to Ready an Action to shoot that (or throw that shuriken, which is more appropriate). No attacking that round. You've just given up all of the two weapon and iterative attacks the TMNT have, greatly reducing their power.or surprise them and deal more HP of damage to V than he has HP before she has a chance to react... which is after all what I suggested at the beginning.


Yea, the first time you hear someone talking about magic in a strange world, you suspend everything you know about magic in our world (ie. sleight of hand) and think "Oh, they can kill me with a thought." Sorry, that's completely unrealistic and an enormous leap of intuition.That that's not all the experience with magic that they have; they have had encounters with real wizards/sorcerors. No intuition leap required.

Nor would it take observing V for very long to know that he's capable of much more than just waving her hands around, speaking gibberish, and some sleight of hand; and in my recollection it would be in character for them to observe an enemy from the shadows, just like it would be in character for the OoTS to not notice them.

[Illsbane]

:elan: Keep the same. Use him as the Hype-man. Give catchphrase. Look into releasing Banjo toys. Make millions. Also, make him the leader.

:roy: Keep him the same. Less cursing and no bloodshed. His father wasn't killed, he's just kidnapped. And he is trapped inside the magic crown or sumthin'. Also he's from the streets.

:belkar: Make him more like the Hobbits in Lord of the Rings.(I'm thinking more like Merry) Keep a lil' of his original personality by making him a funny, rude wisecracker. Also less killing.


:durkon: Keep same. Remove the religious undertones...now while we're at it, lets remove him as a common character and restrict him to guest appearances...He's not very marketable

:vaarsuvius: Rename her "V" or maybe "VeeVee" or "Varry." Did I say "her"?
Well thats because there aren't enough ladies in OotS. We need something for the girls and since V is an unconfirmed gender and we dont need any kids asking questions about trannies....
"Possible :belkar: X :vaarsuvius: "

This very nearly made me shriek out loud with horror. o_o;


:haley: Change personality to Hip Spunky Valley Girl.

Ack! Haley from the Valley? How horrible ...

[Nibleswick]

I'm certain Leo and Raph have high will saves. Donny should have decent will, but Mikey, heh he's out quickly if they don't take out V quickly.

I was watching TMNT the other day and they were fighting off the mind control of someone who specializes in mind control. They would have to have high will saves for something like that, besides if something happen to one of them one of the others can just say something and snap him out of it.:cool:

[Reptilus]

And the OotS'ers are stupid? You're assuming the OotS doesn't heal or enact any plans of their own to deal with this new enemy.
Oh, they can heal. Healing will just make it so it takes longer for the overpowered characters to lose. Also, if Durkon is under attack, he'll have a hard time healing himself and all of the others while keeping up with combat. He might be able to heal, though, considering the TMNT are outnumbered, but he will run out of spells, and then we're back to where we started; the TMNT generally overpowering OotS. OotS takes out armies of monsters with rests in between. The TMNT take out armies of mid-high level ninja without rests and take their high-level boss on right afterwords.
As for planning, I've given neither team the opportunity for planning. I'm assuming they just end up fighting each other without time to concoct crafty plans. If they had, they're probably wind up at a stalemate. If anything, Don's technology would give the advantage over to the turtles; they can use remote controlled robots to check for magic or mundane traps, which have to be recast or reloaded in most circumstances, while the TMNT have technological traps with ammunition that won't run out so quickly, and the OotS doesn't really have the cannon fodder for it.


Basically, you're playing favorites. The TMNT have all these cool abilities and so they automatically win because they always auto-win in the comics. That's all you're really saying.
They've been defeated; a whole story arc revolves around their defeat.


I can say the same thing about the OotS. They regularly beat everything that comes their way, unless the story needs them to lose. Thus, if the story needs them to beat the TMNT, they will. When the TMNT run and come back in ambush, they'll hit only an illusion created by V, revealing their position and allowing the OotS to jump them in turn.
If we're going by "the story needs them to" we need, then, to clarify which comic this is in. Because if we're going by "they win because the writer says so" or some other Deus Ex Machina, home field advantage isn't an advantage, it's an auto-win. I believe this is on neutral ground, with both/neither story needing them to win or lose.
First, Leonardo and Donatelo have detected illusions numerous times in the past. There's a chance that wouldn't even work. Second, as a soft target, V would be one of the first to be attacked; don't waste time injuring big opponents, cut the numbers then take time on the harder-to-kill ones, so we have to assume he somehow dodged an onslaught of projectiles. Third, the turtles could simply disappear again in a smoke bomb haze; they don't just carry one, you know. Simply economics of how many smoke pellets one can carry versus how many spells V will have, they'll win a contest of attrition. Fourth, in V's illusion, where are all the OotS hiding? He's got to cast a spell to create false OotS and another to hide the real ones, right? Even if my knowledge of illusion magic is faulty, do you really think the Turtles aren't going to notice him casting it? If he casts it as a still, silent spell, sure. He's now raising the spell-level immensely. Otherwise, the ninja who are in hiding, not just gone, will notice the guy they're wathcing cast a spell and see one OotS disappear and another appear. They'll see the wires in the puppet show. Fifth, even with ambush on their side, the OotS are simply underpowered as combatants; Each turtle could easily take each OotS single-handedly, with the exception of Durkon, who they could stalemate.



Ultimately, the TMNT are limited. The OotS brings a much broader array of abilities to the table that can be combined in more effective ways than the melee-centric skills of the TMNT.
Don's inventions, ranged ninja attacks, stealth, the technology recovered from Ticeratons, and normal modern technology are all currently being ignored. Raphael has used a rocket launcher before, and one with enough power to destroy most of a large tower. One shot of it would destroy most of the OotS team, if he could get a clear shot off. Hell, the turtles could drive up in one of Donatello's armoured vehicles, moving at sixty miles per hour, and simply run the order of the stick down. V would be the only one really capable of stopping it. If the three other turtles concentrated on just taking V out (again, he's not too stong, physically, so this shouldn't be too hard), or even keeping him busy, Donatello can simply leave the rest of OotS splattered across the highway.
Even if their abilities were limited to melee and stealth, the skill level they possess in each is enough to take OotS out. Any chance the OotS has relies on V's extended survival. And he's a wizard. He wears cloth robes, takes a racial penalty to Con, and isn't skilled in up-close combat.
In addition, OotS has more members. If the contest were, numerically, evened out, the turtles could gain the Fugitoid, a rogue triceraton, an armed-to-the-teeth prescient, or epic-monk equivalent Master Splinter on their side. They've been allied with other powerful people I'm forgetting, who could be added to that list. Even the mundane human Casey Jones could hold is own against some of the OotS.


You have to Ready an Action to shoot that (or throw that shuriken, which is more appropriate). No attacking that round. You've just given up all of the two weapon and iterative attacks the TMNT have, greatly reducing their power.
You don't have to ready an action to throw something. You can just throw it. A shuriken to the neck and V's out of the fight. All TMNT slashing weapons should be considered vorpal for the deathblows they've demonstrated in the comics. Converting them to D&D terms doesn't mean weakening them to D&D terms. It means converting them. And their shuriken kill.




No more than anyone else with a sword.
No more than anyone else with superhuman skill with a sword getting a sneak attack.




Yea, the first time you hear someone talking about magic in a strange world, you suspend everything you know about magic in our world (ie. sleight of hand) and think "Oh, they can kill me with a thought." Sorry, that's completely unrealistic and an enormous leap of intuition.
The TMNT have fought mages before. Leonardo's fought in the astral plane, even. They know magic is real. They'd recognize V as a wizard, and even if he wasn't, you take out the weakest first to lower the numbers.


Leadership:
Leonardo vs. Roy Greenhilt - Roy has about ten years of experience on Leonardo (Leo is usually said to be about 17 at the oldest, while Roy is 28),
Leonardo is now in his thirties, actually.

and Roy went to Fighter College. He has a distinct advantage in tactical experience, and in terms of overall team management,
Leonardo has trained his entire life to be a ninja and lead a diverse team of ninja. Four years of college versus training since birth? Sorry, Roy.

he has managed to succeed under less than ideal conditions: he has to deal with Belkar AND Elan as disruptive forces while Leonardo generally only gets trouble from Raphael.
Michaelangelo causes his fair share of problems, and Donatello's curiosity is often more problematic than Raph's rages.


Raphael vs. Belkar - The hallmark of any hot-headed badass is running off by themselves and getting into trouble. Belkar ran off and tried to solo Miko, and nearly got himself (intentionally) killed in the process. Raphael, on the other hand, has had a reasonably successful solo career when he runs off by himself.
The only time he ever lost is fighting four clones of the shredder, and even then he wasn't defeated, he just didn't manage to kill them all before Leo showed up. So that's true.


Donatello vs. Varsuvius - It's all about results. Every team needs its "brain" - the guy who brings in the "X factor" that puts them over the top against their enemies. Donatello has come up with some awesome stuff in his time, including a turtle blimp in the original cartoon series, the turle van, and turtle communicators. Varsuvius, on the other hand, came up with an original spell that destroyed an entire magic stadium (in Origin of PCs) in only a few seconds, has soloed three Titanium elementals, and managed to hold a wall breach with only 13 soldiers. Donatello is good, but Varsuvius is just better.
You're again comparing cartoon Don to V. Don'd come up with some better stuff, and while V may excell at magic, that neglects the fact that Don may use his technology instead of directly attacking to bring the fight right up to V's doorstep. Don and a group of robots or an autotrurret attacking V up close don't give him much casting opportunity, or much living opportunity.


But lest we forget, the OOTS still have Haley and Durkon to bring into play before they have to start dipping into reserves (like Celia, Hinjo, Thievery guy, or Unnatural Wizardry girl), while the Turtles are tapped on on regular members and have to call in cavalry (Casey Jones, Splinter, and April).
I don't think one team being bigger than the other really should be considered as an advantage, but even so, Durkon's healing, and Haley's shooting arrows the TMNT have no trouble dodging; they dodge gunfire by anticipating the bullet and moving before it's fired. Like arrows can compete.

Kreistor: All those assumptions are valid or irrelevant. Donnie plays D&D, so he'd know V was a caster. They've faced wizards before, so disbelief is not an issue. Even if the OotS know they can get a random enounter, the turtles could still take them by surprise, and with or without the advantage of surprise, win the fight. My post detailing each combat had nothing to do with them taking OotS by surprise. It wouldn't matter if they did or not, they still have it hands down.

I think the problem with this debate in general is a large lack of understanding about the TMNT beyond that they are turtles with weapons, while people from this forum read OotS, so they know all their abilities. Because they're comparing all of OotS' abilities to a vast minority of the TMNT's, it's no contest.

[Laesin]

Guys it's obvious
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Inverse Ninja Law applies

[JonathanC]

Rep, it sounds like you're talking about the comic book TMNT, who are clearly not the subject of this discussion. Once Leonardo enters his 30's, he's not much of a "teenage" mutant anything, now is he? Likewise, the chances of Donatello having time to whip up a robot army in the midst of an encounter is unlikely, to say the least. Assuming the standard setup (no prep time, both groups equally surprised), The Order of the Stick's larger numbers and ability to heal damage via Durkon is going to put them on top.

Furthermore, Roy trained prior to entering Fighter College, and I think you are far to eager to discount the benefits of formalized education on battle tactics; also, Roy is from a world where Ninjas are commonplace, and is thus trained to deal with their tactics. The TMNT (cartoon version) are not familiar with the tactical challenges proposed by the average D&D party.

The OOTS are more numerous, better prepared, and can bring a wider variety of tactics into play in any spontaneous encounter. If we were discussing a battle in which there was adequate prep time, and we were dealing with the adult, comic book turtles, I might be inclined to agree with you. But we are not. We're talking about the cartoon teenage version against an organized, fairly powerful party of adventurers.

[Black_Light83]

As ninjas, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have both Evasion and Improved Evasion, and possibly Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as well. So, a number of V's spells are survivable, if not plain useless, right there. Meanwhile, their awesome shells provide a superb AC bonus and likely ome nice DR as well. Haley, without surprise, doesn't deal that much damage per arrow, not enough to overcome a good DR on a regular basis anyway. As far as actual combat...

Leonardo vs. Roy
Leaders of their respective team, and both having to maintain control on two ridiculous and angry teammates.

If Leo were armed with only one katana, then maybe Roy would win. But with Leo as a two-weapon fighter, and with dual katanas (probably some racial Superb Two-Weapon Fighting bonus feat going on in this family), I don't think Roy stands much of a chance. He's not exactly optimized, decent Con score and above-average Dex. Whereas Leo has high Dexterity, decent Str and decent Con, and enough good rolls left to have good all-around mental stats as well.

Raphael vs. Belkar
Both angry and violent, and both wielding relatively small weapons compared to other members of their teams.

Raph's sais give him a bonus to Disarming Belkar's daggers (which are easy to disarm anyway, being small, light weapons). Both can throw their weapons at opponents, but once unarmed, Raph's ninja skills would beat Belkar's Halfling Barbarian attacks any day.

Donatello vs. Durkon
They are the steady thinkers of their teams, mostly. Roy looks to Durkon for support and wisdom, while Leo looks to Don when Raph and Mike start fighting each other.

Donatello can hold his own in a fight, sure, but his skills definitely center on his intelligence and inventing, whereas Durkon is a solid warrior, in addition to his magic healing. I'm going to have to give this fight to Durkon over Don; I just can't see how he'd beat Thor's Might Durkon.

Michaelangelo vs. Elan
The jokers of the groups, both tend to get in the way on a regular basis, though Mike's screwups tend to lead to victory while Elan's have a history of just plain screwing things up (though there are several exceptions).

Even with Elan's new halfway competence, I think Mike's still got this fight wrapped up. I don't think I could describe this fight with any accuracy, so I'm not going to try.

That leaves Durkon, V, & Haley vs. Leo, Raph, and Mike. Leo beats Durkon, Raph beats V, and Mike beats Haley. End of battle.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion.



dang... you sure do go indepth how long did u spend on that?:smallconfused:

[Rainspattered]

Rep, it sounds like you're talking about the comic book TMNT, who are clearly not the subject of this discussion.
I don't believe it ever actually says. Since it just says TMNT, I would actually agree with Reptilus and assume it was the original TMNT.

Once Leonardo enters his 30's, he's not much of a "teenage" mutant anything, now is he? Likewise, the chances of Donatello having time to whip up a robot army in the midst of an encounter is unlikely, to say the least.
The comic has followed them through time. If you have a problem with people growing older, talk to your deity of choice about it.
Donatello has other technology, some that he routinely takes with him.


Assuming the standard setup (no prep time, both groups equally surprised), The Order of the Stick's larger numbers and ability to heal damage via Durkon is going to put them on top.
The Turtles have fought much stiffer odds and a single healer won't turn the tide of a battle unless it's very close. You're going to need more back up than "numbers and healing."


Furthermore, Roy trained prior to entering Fighter College, and I think you are far to eager to discount the benefits of formalized education on battle tactics;
Napoleon went to formal military school. Chinngis Qan did not. Every general from a military school he fought was defeated. Formal school, as much as it tries not to, will always teach straightforward, normal tactics. You can teach that guerilla warfare works, but you can't teach guerilla warfare in a college course. You can teach the need from improvisation, but not the skill to improvise. Tactics are something that you can only "learn" so far, like playing an instrument or writing. You can learn the notes, learn grammar, learn music theory and techniques like alliteration, but you can't be taught how to play with soul or write a good song, and you can't be taught to write a poem with meaning or a novel worth reading. Some things you have to learn by doing. Tactics is one of those things, in my opinion.

also, Roy is from a world where Ninjas are commonplace, and is thus trained to deal with their tactics. The TMNT (cartoon version) are not familiar with the tactical challenges proposed by the average D&D party.
Actually, the cartoon version fights most of the D&D stereotypes. Everyone except cleric.


The OOTS are more numerous, better prepared,
We just discussed how neither had any prep time. If you're talking about better prepared to fight as a team, that's simply untrue. The OotS fights in the same group, but rarely as one. The TMNT use each other to confuse enemies and amplify their abilities. Even, and in fact, especially in the cartoon. The whole new (cartoon) movie is about them working extremely effectively as a team, fighting several warriors vastly more powerful than OotS (who are, to boot, made of stone), only lacking a spellcaster, right after a battle with an army of ninja.


and can bring a wider variety of tactics into play in any spontaneous encounter. If we were discussing a battle in which there was adequate prep time, and we were dealing with the adult, comic book turtles, I might be inclined to agree with you. But we are not. We're talking about the cartoon teenage version against an organized, fairly powerful party of adventurers.
The TMNT in the cartoon were very organized and had future tech with them much more often. That future tech raises their options by a lot. I really think the only thing between them and a really easy win, from any version of the TMNT (to prevent killing from going down, the cartoon TMNT fought robot ninja who were immensely stronger and more agile than normal humans by creation and a robotic giant equivalent to an Iron Colossus, only made of a more durable material and frequently one), is V. If the TMNT, for one of the reasons stated (knowing what caster was, figuring something was up with any skinny weak guy in no armor surrounded by warrior-lookin' guys, to eliminate the easist first so they could even up the numbers, et ceteras), any TMNT has the single combat advantage over any OotS member. Durkon will probably hang out of combat to heal as long as he can. V will either be dead or forced to use spells sparingly to avoid hitting his/her party (Ninja don't exactly stand still to give you a clear shot, especially not the TMNT).

As a note of Eratta/fact referencing, Raphael is established in every TMNT continuity except the first live-action movie as the most skilled in combat. Leo is very technically skilled but doesn't have the guts to put it to effective use, and is still only equal to Raphael in skill. Mikey is actually better than Leo, but is usually too busy showing off to use his full skills. The couple times when he does are impressive, even as black-and-white drawings of a turtle.

[Innis Cabal]

as covincing as all of that was, you are forgetting something important. For all the doodads and flashy things the TNMT have they lack one intergal thing that makes them nothing but light weights. They are not on the same mechanics as the OoTS and with that a single fort save will do them in

[EvilJames]

as covincing as all of that was, you are forgetting something important. For all the doodads and flashy things the TNMT have they lack one intergal thing that makes them nothing but light weights. They are not on the same mechanics as the OoTS and with that a single fort save will do them in

We already established that for this we are either translating tmnt into d&d in some way or OOTS into TMNT & OS, but if you want them to fight not to fight with the same mechanics then they don't have to make a will save they can either do whatever you use to avoid damage in Rifts or they can simply get out of the way

[Innis Cabal]

you can dodge a will save? yes they can dodge the spell but there is another one comming, cant dodge everything, like a fireball

[PsyBlade]

I've done a 180 here. The Turtles have some pretty durable shells. They gotta have high fort saves. Not to mention insane levels of reflex. Their will is decent, though catching Mikey off guard would keep his will save at a low value.

[EvilJames]

you can dodge a will save? yes they can dodge the spell but there is another one comming, cant dodge everything, like a fireball sorry I misread your post. regardless the mechanics arguement is a poor one (it also favors the turtles as they don't have to wait their turn to attack:smallwink: )

also you can dodge a fireball, since that's what the reflex save represents

[Rainspattered]

you can dodge a will save? yes they can dodge the spell but there is another one comming, cant dodge everything, like a fireball
If the TMNT are converted into the D&D ruleset, they have Will saves. If they are not converted into the D&D ruleset, D&D magic wouldn't work at all on them, I don't think.
Because if we go by the laws of each universe, the OotS are stick figures, they don't have the muscle to hold themselves aloft in the TMNT world. Good luck casting that spell to froce the TMNT into a will save they can't make when you're totally unable to move due to having literally no muscle, and your massive head snaps your neck the second you come into existance.
There is a reason we are using one system for both parties. If we tried to keep each system, it would just be stupid.

[NecroPaladin]

TMNT, but only just. The OOTS are an extremely disfunctional team. I'd guess that the OOTS could school the turtles if you, say, removed Elan or Belkar (but not both), because that way they wouldn't have some characters sapping away the usefulness of the others.

[Peanut Gallery]

Bah, can't find my TMNT RPG books or else I would have actual stats.
But translated to DnD terms, the turtles are basically rogue/monks with all the spiffy stuff that those classes get like Sneak Attack, Evasion (helps mitigate V's fireballs which, by the way, is an AoE that you use Reflex to save against, not will.), Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Deflect Arrows (usually bullets for them though), ect. High Dex also means higher up on the inititive (two sneak attacks ftw?) EG: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html
But that's not the main reason I think the TMNT would win. They have teamwork. They've had years practicing with each other and a leader who can get them to follow precise orders and plans far more quickly then Roy could ever dream. They also have the element of suprise: The OotS have crappy spot checks and Durkon makes a ton of noise. Even if they weren't expecting to meet, that gives first strike to the TMNT.
I'm not even going to speculate what technical wonders Donatello may or may not have on him, or the use of flash powder or smoke grenades for cover. (50% chance to completely miss even if you do beat thier dex enhanced AC).
The only thing I think the OotS has going for them is Durkon. He can heal in combat (though I swear except for the Go Team Cleric fight I've never seen him do it) and he has enough armor that he would not be easy to be taken out. Unlike V.

Edit: Savanti Romario is an example of a magic using boss they faced down several times, by the way.

[FatJose]

Well, since we are going by D20 rules, we might as well start adapting tmnt to D20 setting. I honestly don't see why its cartoon tmnt only that we're discussing (based on what alot of the pro-OotS people are saying) but the way I see it we should be pitting independent comic vs. independent webcomic" not "independent webcomic vs. money-making franchise aimed at 4-year olds." (Me being one of them :smallsmile: )

So to begin, I used the 32 point-buy system to make the turtle's stats. They're obviously not accurate. My last name isn't Laird but they're a ballpark figure based on their personalities. Gonna look up the ninja class and see if it matches with whatever the tmnt are comic-wise. (never seen the ninja class) And figure out the stat modifications of an Anthropomorphic Turtle.

At First Level
Leonardo
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 14
Raphael
Str 16 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9
Michaelango
Str 14 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14
Donatello
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 10

Edit: Ooh, beaten to the punch...Well done,sir err ma'am..miss? ...sirstress? :Salutes:
ExtraEdit: Probably shoulda refreshed page before posting.

[Setra]

Hmm

Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.


V wins.

[Jayabalard]

Well, since we are going by D20 rules, we might as well start adapting tmnt to D20 setting. I honestly don't see why its cartoon tmnt only that we're discussing (based on what alot of the pro-OotS people are saying) but the way I see it we should be pitting independent comic vs. independent webcomic" not "independent webcomic vs. money-making franchise aimed at 4-year olds." (Me being one of them :smallsmile: )

So to begin, I used the 32 point-buy system to make the turtle's stats. They're obviously not accurate. My last name isn't Laird but they're a ballpark figure based on their personalities. Gonna look up the ninja class and see if it matches with whatever the tmnt are comic-wise. (never seen the ninja class) And figure out the stat modifications of an Anthropomorphic Turtle.

At First Level
Leonardo
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 14
Raphael
Str 16 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 9
Michaelango
Str 14 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 14
Donatello
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 10

Edit: Ooh, beaten to the punch...Well done,sir err ma'am..miss? ...sirstress? :Salutes:
ExtraEdit: Probably shoulda refreshed page before posting.just my reccolection: TMNT & OS gave the turtles (and other mutants) much higher attributes than a typical human character would have in the palladium FRPG; remember, they're not just adventurers/heroes, they're mutant freaks. In specific, I'm recall that their PE (Con) was near the max that a human can have across the board because of being mutant turtles, and both Leo and Don had fairly high ME (Wis).

But it's been ages since I actually looked at their stat blocks, and those were based off of very young turtles, pretty much as they appeared in the first issue rather than what they would be later (~10-15 years later)

@Reptile: Does Don really play D&D? I did seem to remember that being the case at some point but I couldn't find a reference and wasn't 100% sure. If so, that gives him all kinds of meta game knowledge...

[Dectilon]

I admit it applies to the OOTS too, but since when was the TMNT particularily ninja:ish? I only remember them jumping head-first into battle screaming a bunch of crap and winning per default.

If you ask me, that's why the turtles would win: more I'm-a-hero-thus-I-win points.

[Jayabalard]

as covincing as all of that was, you are forgetting something important. For all the doodads and flashy things the TNMT have they lack one intergal thing that makes them nothing but light weights. They are not on the same mechanics as the OoTS and with that a single fort save will do them inGood thing for them that noone in the OoTS has any PPE, so they can't cast spells /wink

The mechanics argument is just silly.

[Raimun]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles vs. The Order of Stick...?

The only way I could see the two groups would ever meet would be in some parody strip of OotS (Check "Larry Gardener and the Angry Half-Orc"), meaning the OotS would win because:

1) They're the heroes of the strip. I guess the fight would be rather trivial encounter since I don't see exactly how TMNT would become at least some what plot crucial.

2) The fight would propably be a parody of TMNT. They're after all ninjas (stealthy killers) who won't kill their opponents (unless they are robots of some sort) and aren't known to use stealth. That's the way they were in the old, REAL TMNT-cartoons I saw when I was a kid.

Sooo....

6, well above 10th level (all non-robot!) PCs vs. 4 Ninja NPCs who refuse (for some reason) to use their key class features?

Hardly sporting for the OotS. : P

[jindra34]

By the way roy has held off like ten ninjas at once...

[Jayabalard]

By the way roy has held off like ten ninjas at once...They were probably low level, probably not teenage, and certainly not mutants or turtles.


The only way I could see the two groups would ever meet would be in some parody strip of OotSThe question is about the TMNT, not a parody of the TMNT; besides, arguing that the OoTS would win due to home field advantage is kind of silly, and just as meaningless as arguing that the TMNT would win due to home field advantage in their own comic.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Guys it's obvious
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Inverse Ninja Law applies

Exactly. The 4 TMNT should be able to take on the OotS because they are at a numerical disadvantage. However V could probably take the turtles on by herself if seperated from the rest of his group.

[FatJose]

just my reccolection: TMNT & OS gave the turtles (and other mutants) much higher attributes than a typical human character would have in the palladium FRPG; remember, they're not just adventurers/heroes, they're mutant freaks. In specific, I'm recall that their PE (Con) was near the max that a human can have across the board because of being mutant turtles, and both Leo and Don had fairly high ME (Wis).

That's True. Those stats are before factoring in their Anthropomprphic qualities. Unfortunately, the MM doesnt have anything on turtles for me to make an Anthro-Turtle. SO I referenced other creatures with similar attributes and spliced them together

This is what it would probably be like

Monstrous Humanoid
(2HD d8)
Speed30 Swim30
NatAC+6 DamageReduction/3
BAB +2 Darkvision60ft
(Con +4 Wis +4 Cha-2)
ECL+1

Leonardo
Str 15 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 12
Raphael
Str 16 Dex 13 Con 20 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 7
Michaelango
Str 14 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 12
Donatello
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 16 Cha 8

[Setra]

Belkar could, you know, kill them in their sleep.

[FatJose]

Well, that wouldnt really be a fight at all. And all the turtles could do the same with more ease and at 4x efficiency

[Innis Cabal]

ya...except there is a spell that does help that...its called alarm and any self respecting adventure team puts that up before going to sleep...end result TMNT wont be able to sneak up on them

[Jayabalard]

That's True. Those stats are before factoring in their Anthropomprphic qualities. Unfortunately, the MM doesnt have anything on turtles for me to make an Anthro-Turtle. SO I referenced other creatures with similar attributes and spliced them together

This is what it would probably be like

Monstrous Humanoid
(2HD d8)
Speed30 Swim30
NatAC+6 DamageReduction/3
BAB +2 Darkvision60ft
(Con +4 Wis +4 Cha-2)
ECL+1

Leonardo
Str 15 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 12
Raphael
Str 16 Dex 13 Con 20 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 7
Michaelango
Str 14 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 12
Donatello
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 17 Wis 16 Cha 8
Don't forget that they are ~4' tall

I'm not sure about the natural armor and DR... I think they would up with SDC and such greater than plate armor, closer to modern body armor.

If you used the rifts conversion, I think they gained MDC... but that kind of skews the fight totally to the turtles (since I think that would crank them up to the equivelant of several thousand hp)

[FatJose]

hmm, Would that classify them as Small? Or just short?

[Boomlaor]

Google fight confirms that Order of the Stick kicks the crap out of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Teenage+Mutant+Ninja+Turtles&word2=Order+of+the+Stick

In a slightly closer battle, OOTS also beats TMNT.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=TNMT&word2=OOTS

Conclusion: OotS > TMNT

[Jayabalard]

Order and Stick are very common words, "of" and "the" are generally ignored by Google; so the complete phrase is more relevant than the words in the phrase

It's also more telling than the abbreviation since TMNT pretty much only means "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" whereas OOTS has other meanings: the second return for OOTS is after this site is referencing "Online Ordering & Tracking System", and on the first page is one referencing "Out of the Shadows"

"Order of the Stick" loses to "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&wo/rd1=%22Teenage+Mutant+Ninja+Turtles%22&word2=%22Order+of+the+Stick%22)

incidentally, "Order of the Stick" also loses to "Online Ordering & Tracking System" (http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22Online+Ordering+%26+Tracking+System%22&word2=%22Order+of+the+Stick%22)

TURTLE POWER!


hmm, Would that classify them as Small? Or just short?I'm not sure; they're kind of in between, like dwarves (which are classified as medium, but have smaller move much like a small creature)

[Dectilon]

AHAHAHA! There's another interesting point acctually. If they are just teenagers, how skilled could they be, really? How many years of training do they have to their names etc.

[Innis Cabal]

to their side they are mutants, so my guess is alot...

[Jayabalard]

AHAHAHA! There's another interesting point acctually. If they are just teenagers, how skilled could they be, really? How many years of training do they have to their names etc.They trained since infancy; they were mutated while baby turtles, and that means well under a year old. Splinter began training them almost immediately, so between 12 and 18 years training before issue 1. I think the TMNT & OS stat blocks had them pegged at ~16 years old.

I think that Reptile mentioned that in the current storyline the turtles are now ~30 years old, so add another dozen or so to that.

[Darkxarth]

dang... you sure do go indepth how long did u spend on that?:smallconfused:

It took like, 15-20 minutes to work it all out. And I still stand by it, even after all the arguments that have been presented.

[Dectilon]

They trained since infancy; they were mutated while baby turtles, and that means well under a year old. Splinter began training them almost immediately, so between 12 and 18 years training before issue 1. I think the TMNT & OS stat blocks had them pegged at ~16 years old.

I think that Reptile mentioned that in the current storyline the turtles are now ~30 years old, so add another dozen or so to that.

So... they're teenage if you consider the average life expectancy of a turtle? : )

How long are the footies trained?

[jindra34]

So... they're teenage if you consider the average life expectancy of a turtle? : )

How long are the footies trained?

'Bout a month the turn over on them is to high for anything longer

[Jayabalard]

So... they're teenage if you consider the average life expectancy of a turtle? : )I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

How long are the footies trained?Varies alot depending on where in the timeline you are; even then there's quite a bit of variation from one foot ninja to the next.

Some of the foot soldiers are from Japan, and some are from US

[zeratul]

you can't really compare the two. They are completely different, but in terms of quality in general i'd go with oots.

[Reptilus]

So to begin, I used the 32 point-buy system to make the turtle's stats. They're obviously not accurate. My last name isn't Laird but they're a ballpark figure based on their personalities. Gonna look up the ninja class and see if it matches with whatever the tmnt are comic-wise. (never seen the ninja class) And figure out the stat modifications of an Anthropomorphic Turtle.
The first flaw in this is that you're using 32 point-buy. You shouldn't be basing them around a specific method of ability generation, you should be matching their abilities to what they are able to do. We're converting them to D&D, but that doesn't mean making them weaker or stronger.


ya...except there is a spell that does help that...its called alarm and any self respecting adventure team puts that up before going to sleep...end result TMNT wont be able to sneak up on them
By the same token, in a foreign land surrounded by danger, the TMNT would have one keeping watch at all times. Their senses are way too good for any OotS member ot sneak in effectively.


AHAHAHA! There's another interesting point acctually. If they are just teenagers, how skilled could they be, really? How many years of training do they have to their names etc.
Four of them take out an entire street gang, armed with guns, and a small army of extremely skilled ninja. Also, they are now in their thirties.


It took like, 15-20 minutes to work it all out. And I still stand by it, even after all the arguments that have been presented.
That's fair enough, but I'd like to see you refute any of them. I don't mean that to sound like it did. I mean I'd just like to see what flaws their are in my plan, not "I'd like to see your try, punk!" or some other lame action-movie line.


So... they're teenage if you consider the average life expectancy of a turtle? : )

How long are the footies trained?
Foot are trained since birth, and aren't allowed to meet the opposite sex or play any games that won't improve their training until it is complete. Oroku Saki's dead father explains it in a flashback somewhere. The US Foot aren't as long, since they're a newer chapter. However, Splinter's Elite and Karai's foot, both of whom get beaten around without much effort by the Turtles, are members of the former group.

[Darkxarth]

That's fair enough, but I'd like to see you refute any of them. I don't mean that to sound like it did. I mean I'd just like to see what flaws their are in my plan, not "I'd like to see your try, punk!" or some other lame action-movie line.

Er, you realize we're arguing the same side, right? I think the Ninja Turtles would beat OotS, and I think that's what you're saying too... :smallwink:

[nothingclever]

Wow these arguements are getting really dumb. You guys should agree on one format for the characters to fight in which would logically be D&D since skills, stats and classes can be quantified.

I don't get where everyone gets that the turtles have amazing stats or armor when in D&D every character has high levels of each attribute if they are optimized. I read the comic description from wikipedia and it says each is a master of stealth, a martial arts fighting style and has olympic level strength, agility and speed.

All that stuff really doesn't mean anything because PC characters or enemies are naturally much stronger than any normal person such as a commoner. All that whole descriptions means is that TMNT are specialized for what they do while OotS is too and each side is the equivalent of a PC group. Roy might as well be considered just as good with his weapon as any turtle unless he spent a lot of his feats on noncombat stuff. Also the turtles would not have amazing armor in D&D because they would only get a natural armor bonus of +4 or whatever without a cap to the dexterity bonus to AC. All that means is the turtles are wearing decent leather armor while any character in OoTs should be considered to be wearing the same if not better since they are adventurers. A shell which is like a permanent shield on your back and leathery skin does not equal impenetrable damage reduction.

How high level either side could be a good arguement but I'd place both sides as being equal in level since they both have some epic adventures and accomplishments.

The whole idea that the turtles are stronger because they beat so many badguys without rest is dumb because the people they face are usually not very strong at all. They are NOT mid to high level. A gang of thugs or generic ninja army made up of guys that go down in a few hits are equivalent to goblins in D&D whether they use fists or machineguns. If they are taken down with a few hits they are not anything special regardless of how they are drawn.

The turtles do fight some tougher guys besides the nameless horde of low level badguys but so do OotS. They fought the 3 headed dragon thing, the
Linear Guild multiple times and others. Each member of the Linear guild is definitely an opponent of mid to high level challenge because the Order actually takes damage and gets roughed up by them unlike the hordes of nondescript gang members the Turtles fight.

In the end it's OotS diverse group vs equal level fighter/rogues. I think OotS could definitely win but the other side might have a decent chance too. Each member of the turtles would not definitely win in single combat against against each member of the OotS.

In a one on one fight V should be able to beat any turtle by casting fly, protection from arrows and other spells and Roy is just as tough as any Turtle as is Durkon.

[Jayabalard]

Wow these arguements are getting really dumb. You guys should agree on one format for the characters to fight in which would logically be D&D since skills, stats and classes can be quantified.porting the OoTS to the palladium would have the same effect, since the official RPG version of the TMNT was done by Palladium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_and_Other_Strangeness ).

but I agree, a common ground is necessary.


I don't get where everyone gets that the turtles have amazing stats or armor when in D&D every character has high levels of each attribute if they are optimized. I read the comic description from wikipedia and it says each is a master of stealth, a martial arts fighting style and has olympic level strength, agility and speed. I don't have access to it at the moment, but my recollection is that they have very good attributes, and they wound up with a pretty high AR (armor Rating) and SDC (Structural Damage capacity) from their natural armor. I can't look at it now, but my recollection's is that their natural armor is superior in both AR and SDC to full plate.

The stat blocks in TMNT & OS represent them very early in their career, in their teens, rather than more current versions where they are nearing 30. And while they aren't superman... they are certainly designed as superheroes.

The OoTS on the other hand are not optimized.


The turtles do fight some tougher guys besides the nameless horde of low level badguys but so do OotS.Some of them are indeed low level, but they also clobber elite foot soldiers in large numbers, and those elite foot soldiers are trained from birth; read Reptiles description above to get an idea on their training.

[Grizzt]

Roy fought off like 5-6 ninjas WITHOUT HINJO NOTICING
Roy has a badass +5 sword
Vaarsuvius has Evan's Spiked tentacles of forced intrusion

DO YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THE OOTS OWNS THE TMNT?

[Peanut Gallery]

Found my book!
<--- is so happy

Basic translation of stats
Int - IQ (skill bonuses)/ME (Saves vs magic)
Wis - MA (Leadership/command abilities)
Str - PS
Dex - PP
Stm - PE
Chr - PB
Spd = Multiply times 2 for movement per DnD round

All stats are based off of 3d6

Anyways...
Raph
IQ:12
ME:13
MA:11
PS:20
PP:18
PE:20
PB:5
Spd:15

Leo:
IQ:16
ME:16
MA:17
PS:15
PP:20
PE:18
PB:11
Spd:11

Don:
IQ:19
ME:15
MA:12
PS:13
PP:17
PE:13
PB:9
Spd:10

MiKe:
IQ:11
ME:14
MA:19
PS:16
PP:24
PE:17
PB:16
Spd:14

Combat Bonuses (compiled):
Attacks per Melee Round: 6 (leo/raph)/5(don/mike)
+5 to strike, +7 to dodge/parry, +5 damage, +8 to roll with punch/fall, +3 pull punch, Knockout/stun on 18,19,20. Crit on 17-20.

They're also listed at level 6.

Armour - AR12 (raw # of what you have to roll to hit them) SDC 60 (Armour. Have to take this number to 0 before you can start affecting thier HP. To do direct damage to thier HP through the armor you'd have to roll a 72: 12+60)
Basically looking at 90+ hp here effectively.

[Peanut Gallery]

Yes those are Official Stats by the way

[Rainspattered]

From where? I refuse to believe Raphael outfought a Triceraton in single combat with those stats. They're gigantic alien triceratops from a sparta-like civilization bent on galatic conquest, and a level six can outduel a commander? I somehow find these stats unrepresentative.

[Darkxarth]

If the Turtles have to fight in OotS world, they deserve OotS bodies.
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o167/Darkxarth/TMNTPose.jpg

I was just bored.

Anyway...


Roy fought off like 5-6 ninjas WITHOUT HINJO NOTICING
Roy has a badass +5 sword
Vaarsuvius has Evan's Spiked tentacles of forced intrusion

DO YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THE OOTS OWNS THE TMNT?
Those Ninjas were likely quite low-level.
Roy's sword, while cool, is not much more use against the TMNT than a regular one would be. It's real ability lies in combatting the Undead.
V's spells are nice, if they can hit. The Turtles, as Ninjas, are much more likely to dodge any spells than get hit by them.

So yes, I do need more evidence to prove that the OotS could own the TMNT.

[Alex Knight]

I think that the team of Xykon, Redcloak, and MitD would win....assuming Redcloak planned the tactics, and not everyone's favorite animated skeleton.

[Krytha]

TMNT wins. See, there's 4 of them, all high level characters with enormous amounts of combat experience against all kinds of foes (magic using as well, so its not like they wouldnt appraise V as what he is). The inverse ninja rule doesn't apply to them because theyre protagonists and they vary from Fairly competent to downright BADASS. The OotS is all over the place and their teamwork is limited to those who are willing to work as a team.

Durkon would be a problem, but they could fizzle all of Vs spells through use of shuriken (doesn't seem to take much to make V screw up) and the ones he did pull off would likely be dodged. Piercing weapons have limited use due to the turtles' shells so Elan and Haley are already at a large disadvantage (not to mention the turtles are great at blocking projectiles) and any one of the turtles could go toe to toe with Roy with a decent chance of winning or being evenly matched enough to stall him for the time it takes to wreck the rest of the party. (3 of them not being brain damaged. The OotS on the other hand...)

the turtles also get the first attack. Even if they walked up to the OotS and introduced themselves, they would still get the element of surprise.

ITS PIZZA TIME!

[WarriorTribble]

I don't have access to it at the moment, but my recollection is that they have very good attributes, and they wound up with a pretty high AR (armor Rating) and SDC (Structural Damage capacity) from their natural armor. I can't look at it now, but my recollection's is that their natural armor is superior in both AR and SDC to full plate.Small nitpick, but how do they have good defense? Sure they've shells, but that only protects their backs. The front of their bodies are usually naked...

[Krytha]

Small nitpick, but how do they have good defense? Sure they've shells, but that only protects their backs. The front of their bodies are usually naked...

A close look at turtle shells will reveal that they cover both the back and the front and are fused around the joints.

[nothingclever]

Small nitpick, but how do they have good defense? Sure they've shells, but that only protects their backs. The front of their bodies are usually naked...It's because they don't use logic and want to make the turtles seem better than they realistically are. Sure realism isn't something you should really criticize when talking about mutant turtle-people but it still doesn't make sense and you can't really suspend belief when they clearly do not have "better than full plate" protection.


A close look at turtle shells will reveal that they cover both the back and the front and are fused around the joints.
I'm no animal expert but I highly doubt a turtle's stomach shell is even half as strong as the massive shells on their backs.
Plus a shell on a humanoid turtle is not full body armor when legs arms and head clearly stick out.

[WarriorTribble]

A close look at turtle shells will reveal that they cover both the back and the front and are fused around the joints.Er... I'm just going by the images from their wiki article, but I don't see what you're talking about.

EDIT: Hmm... it seems a turtle's lower armor is called plastron. Must say though it doesn't look very protective.

[Krytha]

I wasn't saying that they have the equivalent of full plate, but they have enough. The wiki article hmm? Well, basically whenever you see the yellow squares on their front, that's the front of their shell. They don't correspond to actual turtle shells precisely, but the yellow area is plated and supposed to represent the plastron.

The upper shell of the turtle is called the carapace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carapace). The lower shell that encases the belly is called the plastron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastron). The carapace and plastron are joined together on the turtle's sides by bony structures called bridges. The inner layer of a turtle's shell is made up of about 60 bones that includes portions of the backbone and the ribs, meaning the turtle cannot crawl out of its shell. In most turtles, the outer layer of the shell is covered by horny scales called scutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scute) that are part of its outer skin, or epidermis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermis_%28skin%29). Scutes are made up of a fibrous protein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein) called keratin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin) that also makes up the scales of other reptiles. These scutes overlap the seams between the shell bones and add strength to the shell.

Basically the shell is made of modified scales fused together. no mention on whether the plastron is less durable than the carapace. Evolution would have let the turtles down if they could be flipped over and immediately made vulnerable.

edit to your edit. well you seem to like wikipedia and this is what it says about the plastron.

The plastron is the nearly flat part of the shell structure of a turtle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle) or tortoise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortoise), what one would call the belly, similar in composition to the carapace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carapace); with an external layer of horny material divided into plates called scutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scute) and an underlying layer of interlocking bones.

[WarriorTribble]

Basically the shell is made of modified scales fused together. no mention on whether the plastron is less durable than the carapace. Evolution would have let the turtles down if they could be flipped over and immediately made vulnerable.The bottom is usually protected by being on the ground, so I'd say it's weaker. Not to mention whenever I see people killing turtles on T.V they always target that area.

EDIT: To answer the original question though... well I dunno. I do note however there's one character in OOTS who trained since childhood, and she kicked their asses (albeit not in a too probable manner imo). Even with the new sword and Elan's new competence I don't think they'll be able to take on what's basically 4 Mikos minus the healing.

Note I don't play D&D please don't kill me for the inaccurate comparison between a monk/paladin and a group that are ninja and/or monk. :smallwink:

[Krytha]

The bottom is usually protected by being on the ground, so I'd say it's weaker. Not to mention whenever I see people killing turtles on T.V they always target that area.

See the above. After my vertebrate zoology class, I found that those things are surprisingly durable... not that I played with turtle bones excessively.

[Darkxarth]

The bottom is usually protected by being on the ground, so I'd say it's weaker. Not to mention whenever I see people killing turtles on T.V they always target that area.

TV being known worldwide for its accurate portrayal of real life... :smallwink:

[WarriorTribble]

See the above. After my vertebrate zoology class, I found that those things are surprisingly durable... not that I played with turtle bones excessively.I did. I also looked up the wiki article on turtles before I saw your post. Still doesn't counter the argument that the area is weaker since ordinary turtles don't need as much protection there.
TV being known worldwide for its accurate portrayal of real life... :smallwink:Well if nothing else, I'm sure the upper shell can have some artistic value.

[Raldage]

Ninja don't stand a chance with Elan singing and V doing her thing. One fireball and they would be...*best Shredder impression* Turtle soup!

[zeratul]

Oh in a fight? TMNT definately.

[Ralfarius]

Reading through this thread (after a while, it sort of melds together), one thing that keeps coming up is how the Turtles would translate into D&D.

The thing to consider here, is would the Turtles actually be equivalent in level to OotS? Consider how many adventures the Order has had, in webcomic and printed prequel form. Now, that's nothing to sneeze at. They are a group of seasoned adventurers.

If we were take the sum of their experiences, how would that compare to the Turtles? Looking at the original run of the TMNT comics, including Tales of the Turtles, the One-shot micro series for each individual turtle... I don't think I'm out of line saying that they have objectively done a fair bit more. Their adventures have ranged from time travel (both of the time machine and magical variety), crossovers with a myriad of other comic characters, including Cerebus the Aardvark... The turtles have saved their planet (and others) from total annihilation on several occasions.

In comparison, the Order is still in the midst of their reality-saving adventure. I would say that overall, the Turtles have had a lot more experience than the Order. Because of that, they could each be a fair number of levels higher than the order. In D&D terms, that equates to more abilities, better HP, more feats, more class features.

One other thing to consider, in a non-numbers sense, is the style of the two groups. The Order is geared more toward dungeon crawling (heck, their first adventure was a dungeon crawl). The style of the Turtles is one more geared towards assassination and other ninja-ly pursuits.

But... You know what? The Turtles are good guys, and so is the Order. Like in so many crossovers, it would more likely that they would fight each other for a few pages, neither side gaining much ground (but making for some wicked displays of ability). After that, someone would say something that would bring both groups to a standstill. Either that, or the true enemy would reveal itself.

In the end, the Turtles and the Order would join forces, besting their common enemy in a battle of epic proportions. Promptly afterward, the Turtles would be hurled back to New York, and the one-shot crossover would never be mentioned again by either party, up until a second crossover was made.

[zeratul]

OOTS is only supposed to be like level nine. Rich said so.

[Reptilus]

One other thing to consider, in a non-numbers sense, is the style of the two groups. The Order is geared more toward dungeon crawling (heck, their first adventure was a dungeon crawl). The style of the Turtles is one more geared towards assassination and other ninja-ly pursuits.
Although, they were capable of Dungeon-Crawl type adventures; Return to New York featured them entering the Foot compound by pure force.

[Kreistor]

OOTS is only supposed to be like level nine. Rich said so.

That's not backed up by V's spellcasting in the comic. SHe has cast spells with 13 targets (427 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html)) which makes V level 13. And Bigby's Grasping Hand (397 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html)) is Spell Level 7, which requires level 13.

[jindra34]

they started at level 9 or 10 and have gained at least three levels thus they are at least level 12 or 13

[Flubadubdub]

4 ninjas, easy. Now if they had to fight them one by one, then they'd be in trouble, but since the turtles are fighting together, they are at a horrible disadvantage. Poor ninjas.

[Cifer]

If we port TMNT over to D&D, I'd say it's going to be rather close, for several reasons:

-TMNT, while undoubtedly more competent, is outnumbered. The thread title says OOTS vs. TMNT, so that's what it is
-ported to D&D, fighting with two Katana is horribly inefficient - we're talking about five or more feats here (EWP, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, oversized TWF)
-depending on whether you use monk or ninja to represent the TMNT, there are still will saves to attack - V, while usually heavy in the evocation department, doesn't really shy away from that either and there's only so much wisdom can do
-I'd say Durkon, Belkar and Roy are more or less about as sturdy as the turtles - more so if we assume D&D rules where monks and ninjas don't have that great HD
-Finally, there's Elan. We don't know how effective he really is - we've seen the new him in one fight till now. However, just think about how many stupid puns and jokes you can make about turtles

Oh, about that opponent comparison: Do you really think nobles would send newbie ninjas after a ruler who can be assumed to have the best bodyguards money and honour can buy? I'd presume it to be best to go by Eberron here, meaning that for NPCs, training and experience don't neccessarily translate into levels, so that "lifelong training" can mean anything from levels 2 to 20.

[Peanut Gallery]

From where? I refuse to believe Raphael outfought a Triceraton in single combat with those stats. They're gigantic alien triceratops from a sparta-like civilization bent on galatic conquest, and a level six can outduel a commander? I somehow find these stats unrepresentative.

Paladium Books wrote a TMNT RPG series for roleplayers based off the original comic. The title of the Book is "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other Strangeness".

Triceraton Stats:
IQ 10
PS 24-30
PP12
PE 18-24
Spd 8
AR 8 SDC +60 (they usually have up to 55 artificial armor on)

Highest level they have quoted here is 10th level and that's for a general. Commanders are in the 6 or 7 range. And they only have hand to hand basic once you disarm thier technological goodies. No mental stats listed though. Kinda strange.

[Krytha]

I did. I also looked up the wiki article on turtles before I saw your post. Still doesn't counter the argument that the area is weaker since ordinary turtles don't need as much protection there.Well if nothing else, I'm sure the upper shell can have some artistic value.

Um... I don't think you understand. Similar in composition MEANS that their structural integrity is practically identical. How do you understand that turtles don't need protection on their undersides? Turtles are not evasive creatures. They don't run. They wait it out. A predator would not have a hard time flipping a turtle over. if they had softer undersides, they would be extinct by now.

[Reptilus]

-ported to D&D, fighting with two Katana is horribly inefficient - we're talking about five or more feats here (EWP, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, oversized TWF)
And Leonardo has all of them. When converting them, they shouldn't be strengthened or weakened; they should be converted. Leonardo is evidently very able with that sword. He either has a ridiculous BAB or gets rid of most the penalties.

-depending on whether you use monk or ninja to represent the TMNT, there are still will saves to attack - V, while usually heavy in the evocation department, doesn't really shy away from that either and there's only so much wisdom can do
There's only so much you can cast when you take a shuriken to the neck, too. He's going to be the first target. The TMNT aren't stupid and know wizards; they'll recognize him. Second, why are they taking one of those two classes? They could have an alarming multiclass combination with many of their ninja skills being Ninja Turtle racial feats, since their entire race technically does possess them.

-I'd say Durkon, Belkar and Roy are more or less about as sturdy as the turtles - more so if we assume D&D rules where monks and ninjas don't have that great HD
Again, you're lowering them to D&D standards. This is about converting them over accurately, not as weaker incarnations.

-Finally, there's Elan. We don't know how effective he really is - we've seen the new him in one fight till now. However, just think about how many stupid puns and jokes you can make about turtles
Still, he's using a rapier against a turtle with two katana, nunchaku, or sai. That's disarm and parry city, with one or both weapons still left to attack him. Don can just use superior agility to keep away with the staff.


Oh, about that opponent comparison: Do you really think nobles would send newbie ninjas after a ruler who can be assumed to have the best bodyguards money and honour can buy? I'd presume it to be best to go by Eberron here, meaning that for NPCs, training and experience don't neccessarily translate into levels, so that "lifelong training" can mean anything from levels 2 to 20.
So the six ninja Roy fought are equal to the Foot Elite and Karai's foot. The TMNT took out armies of them with no trouble. Dozens. Many, many more than six each. In the very first issue, when they were less skilled than they now are. Roy being able to take out NPC ninja with a lot of training is meaningless; so can the turtles, and in much greater volumes.

[Krytha]

Still, he's using a rapier against a turtle with two katana, nunchaku, or sai. That's disarm and parry city, with one or both weapons still left to attack him. Don can just use superior agility to keep away with the staff.
Elan has ONE LEVEL in that prestige class. He doesnt have a ton of HD and he's still only halfway competent. He has to avoid his rapier being sundered and get past the turtle's natural AC. Donatello has reach on him too, which I assume would provoke attacks of opportunity. Elan doesn't factor in significantly. Maybe against his loser brother with a dagger, or a couple of hobgoblins, but not against an elite 4-turtle squad.

Raphael: IT'S PIZZA TIME
Elan's rapier: *sundered*

[Smada]

Railroad plot or not miko kicked thier buts with just a mount as backup. There are 4 of them. OOTS has no chance.

[WarriorTribble]

Um... I don't think you understand. Similar in composition MEANS that their structural integrity is practically identical. How do you understand that turtles don't need protection on their undersides? Turtles are not evasive creatures. They don't run. They wait it out. A predator would not have a hard time flipping a turtle over. if they had softer undersides, they would be extinct by now.Even with a similar composition you can't be sure they're the same density or tickness... To be fair we're probably both right. With 300 species including water dwellers I say there's no one answer.

[StudlyDuck]

I'd say the TMNT are probably significantly higher level than the OoTS. Simply because they've been around a lot longer.

That said, trying to directly translate them into a D&D class isn't really a perfect system to go about it. I dare you to tell me that the turtles don't have hide in plain sight. Stealth puts them at a big advantage, as they could probably deal heavy damage before the OoTS was able to pinpoint them.

I will concede the fact that V is the wild card, though. The turtles may have dealt with magic before, but if (And this is a serious if) V is able to concentrate, a well placed spell could turn the fight around.

[Krytha]

I will concede the fact that V is the wild card, though. The turtles may have dealt with magic before, but if (And this is a serious if) V is able to concentrate, a well placed spell could turn the fight around.

That may well be, but there's four turtles with shuriken. Disrupting V's spells doesn't seem to take much, and if they just take turns wrecking his spells or just take him out as soon as they recognize his potential, it lowers the chances of him drastically altering the course of the battle. I put my wildcard vote on Durkon.

Additionally, there ARE species of turtles with less dense shells, like the leatherback, but the TMNTs are hard shells and therefore, their fronts are more than likely to be hard as well. I'm claiming that this feature will render Roy completely useless, I'm saying that in D+D terms, it will make things a bit tougher to land a real good hit on their main body areas and make things exceedingly difficult for the party members with piercing weapons. Haley will have to shoot VERY well (and bypass the turtle's abilities to deflect projectiles) and Elan will have to score hits on limbs rather than the larger target of the torso, something I think he will be incapable of doing based on the skill of the opposition. With these things factored in, the turtles can certainly overmatch the OotS.

[WarriorTribble]

That may well be, but there's four turtles with shuriken. Disrupting V's spells doesn't seem to take much, and if they just take turns wrecking his spells or just take him out as soon as they recognize his potential, it lowers the chances of him drastically altering the course of the battle. I put my wildcard vote on Durkon.How likely is it that the turtles would be able to throw shurikens at a moving target while fighting the other 4 melee OOTS and being stung by Haley's arrows? Either way I think protection from arrows would take care of that.

EDIT: I also believe all the TMNT use both hands for fighting making tossing anything except their own weapons impossible.

[StudlyDuck]

That may well be, but there's four turtles with shuriken. Disrupting V's spells doesn't seem to take much, and if they just take turns wrecking his spells or just take him out as soon as they recognize his potential, it lowers the chances of him drastically altering the course of the battle. I put my wildcard vote on Durkon.

Additionally, there ARE species of turtles with less dense shells, like the leatherback, but the TMNTs are hard shells and therefore, their fronts are more than likely to be hard as well. I'm claiming that this feature will render Roy completely useless, I'm saying that in D+D terms, it will make things a bit tougher to land a real good hit on their main body areas and make things exceedingly difficult for the party members with piercing weapons. Haley will have to shoot VERY well (and bypass the turtle's abilities to deflect projectiles) and Elan will have to score hits on limbs rather than the larger target of the torso, something I think he will be incapable of doing based on the skill of the opposition. With these things factored in, the turtles can certainly overmatch the OotS.
You make good arguements, but consider the two points together. While Durkon may, at first, seem like the more reliable choice, you mentioned that the OoTS' biggest weakness in this battle is a lack of appropriate offensive abilities. V is much more suited to make up for that weakness than Durkon.

[ElfLad]

Donatello does machines, and that's a fact, Jack.

[Professor Tanhauser]

This is a dumb discussion.

Everyone knows the TMNT aren't real.....

[Krytha]

How likely is it that the turtles would be able to throw shurikens at a moving target while fighting the other 4 melee OOTS and being stung by Haley's arrows? Either way I think protection from arrows would take care of that.

EDIT: I also believe all the TMNT use both hands for fighting making tossing anything except their own weapons impossible.

A moving target is fine, but it gives V additional checks he has to pass. The turtles are ninjas, so they are faster and have more options when it comes to movement than the OotS. As I mentioned earlier, Haley will have a tough time landing anything more than a nuisance on any single one of the turtles, although 20s do happen every once in a while. Basically, the turtles get to pick their battles while the OotS is forced to attempt to engage them head on. With this in mind, the turtles are free to disrupt Vs attempts at casting (could be protection from arrows at first and everything goes downhill from there). If V gets protection from arrows off, then things get a little more difficult for them, but not too much. If V spends his first round casting protection from arrows on himself, the turtles will know something's up. They will obviously win initiative (ninjas) and then can take V out with their enormous damage output.

If you have seen the show, they do not walk around all the time with their weapons in their hands, incapable of doing anything else that is not swinging their arms. Sheath one, throw the shuriken. Plus, theyre ninjas. They can probably toss them with their feet... or ears... which they don't have...

[WarriorTribble]

A moving target is fine, but it gives V additional checks he has to pass. The turtles are ninjas, so they are faster and have more options when it comes to movement than the OotS. As I mentioned earlier, Haley will have a tough time landing anything more than a nuisance on any single one of the turtles, although 20s do happen every once in a while. Basically, the turtles get to pick their battles while the OotS is forced to attempt to engage them head on. With this in mind, the turtles are free to disrupt Vs attempts at casting (could be protection from arrows at first and everything goes downhill from there). If V gets protection from arrows off, then things get a little more difficult for them, but not too much. If V spends his first round casting protection from arrows on himself, the turtles will know something's up. They will obviously win initiative (ninjas) and then can take V out with their enormous damage output.

If you have seen the show, they do not walk around all the time with their weapons in their hands, incapable of doing anything else that is not swinging their arms. Sheath one, throw the shuriken. Plus, theyre ninjas. They can probably toss them with their feet... or ears... which they don't have...Well how competent the turtles would be while dueling would depends on stats we don't know, so I'll just leave that be. Although I do think a competent group would form a body shield around the caster while s/he gets ready.

It's true they'll probably be able to get a shurikan attack in there while the OOTS get ready, but after that both parties will need to draw weapons, and by then throwing weapons are out of the equation. Even if one could throw with their feet (which is really silly not even batman has done that I think) having to track and aim at V would leave them too open. Unless of course they have the whole "being able to sense where your opponent is" thing which I don't know about, and seems a bit cheap to me.

[Krytha]

Well how competent the turtles would be while dueling would depends on stats we don't know, so I'll just leave that be. Although I do think a competent group would form a body shield around the caster while s/he gets ready.
Well, we all know how competent the OotS is as a whole. Hey Belkar! Protect the casters! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)



It's true they'll probably be able to get a shurikan attack in there while the OOTS get ready, but after that both parties will need to draw weapons, and by then throwing weapons are out of the equation. Even if one could throw with their feet (which is really silly not even batman has done that I think) having to track and aim at V would leave them too open. Unless of course they have the whole "being able to sense where your opponent is" thing which I don't know about, and seems a bit cheap to me.
The feet thing was a joke although I bet they could do it, seeing how their feet are remarkably similar to their hands and batman does not have monkey feet. They don't carry their weapons around all the time, they have sheathes and place their weapons in their "belts". You CAN draw ONE weapon and not the other. it is within the realm of realistic physics. Really.

And why do they need to "sense" where V is? He's in plain sight, barring him casting invisibility which, as he doesnt have greater invisibility renders him useless until he casts something, leaving the OotS without a good deal of firepower for at least a turn in which the turtles with their large damage capabilities will win initiative and do some heavy damage before the fight starts in earnest. Assuming the turtles didnt attack him first, they would still have the opportunity to do so because of the lousy spot checks of the OotS and their ninja initiative rolls.

And if you meant sense in some other way, like "he is a wizard!", they would know because theyve fought all kinds of foes before, not just melee combatants. hell, they even have aliens on the list.

The stats of the turtles would be based on their competence prior to their D+D conversion. They are more than respectable.

[WarriorTribble]

Well, we all know how competent the OotS is as a whole. Hey Belkar! Protect the casters! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html)Well that's Belkar not the OotS.
The feet thing was a joke although I bet they could do it, seeing how their feet are remarkably similar to their hands and batman does not have monkey feet. They don't carry their weapons around all the time, they have sheathes and place their weapons in their "belts". You CAN draw ONE weapon and not the other. it is within the realm of realistic physics. Really.Even with their training I doubt they can do the throws. Stand on one leg while manipulating your belt with the other, choosing the right pouch w/o looking, and finally throwing, all while someone is doing their darnest to kill ya. I doubt they'd try that with foot soldiers let alone an unknown force. Not to mention TMNT probably suffer from some loss of grace and agility simply cause of their race. And why would they cripple themselves by drawing one weapon? Even if they were going to attempt a concerted effort to take out V I'd bet they try to cut him/her down instead of sniping from a distance. It seems to be their specialty.
And why do they need to "sense" where V is?Just thinking that V won't be standing still even if s/he only walks around slowly every once in awhile to get a better aiming position or whatever, and they're not going to track the movement while fighting the others.
And if you meant sense in some other way, like "he is a wizard!", they would know because theyve fought all kinds of foes before, not just melee combatants. hell, they even have aliens on the list.Did they fight so many building shattering folks with glowy hands that they'll immediatly categorize him/her as a priority one threat?

[Krytha]

Well that's Belkar not the OotS.
Don't make me pull up the many, many situations where the rest of the OotS has proven their crappy teamwork. If you do, Ill just say something akin to "read the comics again".


Even with their training I doubt they can do the throws. Stand on one leg while manipulating your belt with the other, choosing the right pouch w/o looking, and finally throwing, all while someone is doing their darnest to kill ya. I doubt they'd try that with foot soldiers let alone an unknown force. Note how it was a joke and not a serious suggestion for combat.


Not to mention TMNT probably suffer from some loss of grace and agility simply cause of their race.
What does this even mean? There's only 4 teenage mutant ninja turtles we can look at and all of them are agile. Are you drawing this "race" information from another teenage mutant turtle show?


And why would they cripple themselves by drawing one weapon? Even if they were going to attempt a concerted effort to take out V I'd bet they try to cut him/her down instead of sniping from a distance. It seems to be their specialty.
Drawing one weapon to throw a shuriken isn't crippling. It doesnt stop them from drawing the other at any time they want. They would more likely open with a barrage of shuriken than a head-on attack.


Just thinking that V won't be standing still even if s/he only walks around slowly every once in awhile to get a better aiming position or whatever, and they're not going to track the movement while fighting the others.And... why not? They actually notice things unlike some adventurers I know. Besides, the only person who could take a turtle 1v1 melee would be Roy. The rest would be occupied, but not to the degree that they would be completely engaged in battle.
Did they fight so many building shattering folks with glowy hands that they'll immediatly categorize him/her as a priority one threat?They've fought enough (Savanti Juliet comes to mind) and have allies (Mistress of Time) who weild such powers, so I'm sure they would notice something's up. Even if V managed to get one spell off, he would have to fight the turtle's reflex save (huge) and how easy would it be to take out all 4 turtles at once? he'll only have one shot and if he wastes it, the turtles will be on him and his d4 hitdice before you can say -Pwned-

[Glome]

Actually I just thought of one way to settle this. Have someone who knows alot about dnd and TMNT stat out the turtles without letting him know before the intent to have them fight the OOTS. Get reasonable stats for the OOTS off of what we know (which should be easier) and just let them fight it out.

Maybe bring the statting TMNT problem to a dnd forum without letting them know what it's for so they aren't biased for one side to win.

[WarriorTribble]

Don't make me pull up the many, many situations where the rest of the OotS has proven their crappy teamwork. If you do, Ill just say something akin to "read the comics again".Actually do tell. Except Elan I can't think of any recent incidents where the OOTS screwed each other in combat.
They would more likely open with a barrage of shuriken than a head-on attack.Eh, I'll take your word for it... My experience is that in combat they're about as "ninja" as Naruto is aka. loud, impressive, and meele oriented. Not long ranged assination tactics based. They're sword wielding martial artists not ninjas imo.
And... why not? They actually notice things unlike some adventurers I know. Besides, the only person who could take a turtle 1v1 melee would be Roy. The rest would be occupied, but not to the degree that they would be completely engaged in battle.If ye say so, though I'm surprised you left Durkon out. Still what makes you think they're that good? Any examples in canon where something similar happened? I think they can all distract them long enough for V to pull a deus ex. maybe use cold attacks to slow their metabolism. Course it's iffy V will figure that out.

EDIT:
What does this even mean? There's only 4 teenage mutant ninja turtles we can look at and all of them are agile. Are you drawing this "race" information from another teenage mutant turtle show?They're fighting in heavy armor, when neither ninjas or martial artists aren't good with them. It's natural armor so I can understand if they can do the fancy moves even with the shells, but a negative... something is expected imo. And heck they're turtles. It just seemed logical.

[Jayabalard]

From where? I refuse to believe Raphael outfought a Triceraton in single combat with those stats. They're gigantic alien triceratops from a sparta-like civilization bent on galatic conquest, and a level six can outduel a commander? I somehow find these stats unrepresentative.Remember, this is from the palladium system; so things simply don't directly convert in a 1:1 fashion. With the exception of RIFTS, palladium is generally not a "high number" system.

Palladium levels run from lvl 1 to level 15; rather than D&D's 1-20. Even the exp points don't translate well, since palladium Level 15 is ~400k exp compared to D&D's 190k at lvl 20. Casters in palladium get one spell level for each character level (yes there are 15 levels of spells).

To translate you're looking at something like 1 palladium level being equal to around 1.5 D&D levels. So the level 6 turtles would be around lvl 9 in D&D terms, and remember, those are the stat blocks of the turtles while they are actually teenagers, very early in their careers. They're nearing 30, so they have probably leveled a few times since then.

60 SDC is what they started with due to their mutation; for comparison: a troll in Palladium FRPG has 40 SDC.

Their AR from their shell mutation is one lower than a person wearing Half Plate. So ~6 Natural armor; leo with his 20 PA (Dex) would have an AC bonus +11; I'm not sure if you would need to add in anything further based on their bonus to parry/dodge, but that seems likely.

[Bavarian itP]

OotS are the protagonists in a D&D-Story. That means, they have an +20 circumstance modifier on damage and attack rolls against anything that has green skin.

(If I would state my true opinion about TMNT, the people who like them or the people who think they can beat OotS, we would swimming in asterisks very soon)

[Malik]

Railroad plot or not miko kicked thier buts with just a mount as backup. There are 4 of them. OOTS has no chance.

But you have to remember in that fight durkon didnt participate, that said miko took all the others out easy as pie and would have, in my opinion, taken durkon out just as easily.

Verdict For Me : Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles defeat Order of the Stick

[GKBeetle]

I really think it has to do with three factors. One, is Splinter there? Even though he isn't a turtle, he is there for a lot of important battles. Since he's not usually there, we have to assume that he won't be there for for at least the first battle. TMNT will probably get mopped if he's not there. Maybe in a second encounter, he could be there to help them and turn the tides a bit. Second, is how quickly the Turtles could take out V. If V goes down early, this will make the battle a lot easier for the turtles, since they can't do much against V's magic. If V goes down early, I think that the Turtles' fighting ability trumps the OOTS. Third is the battle field. If the battle field is in a city or someplace where the turles can hide and strike from the shadows, they might have a chance. In someplace like a field, I don't think they have a chance at all, however, even if Splinter is there.

[FatJose]

Wow...the OotS is level 13...and here I thought they had a chance. With all the crap the turtles have gone through they would atleast be level 20.
And the stats for the rpg dont really count. Its outdated and as a rule in rpgs you always start at a low level (1-5)

[Jayabalard]

Wow...the OotS is level 13...and here I thought they had a chance. With all the crap they've gone through they would atleast be level 20.
And the stats for the rpg dont really count. Its outdated and as a rule in rpgs you always start at a low level (1-5)Like I mentioned above, the level system is not quite the same between the two systems; the turtles are in the stat block are probably around level 9 in D&D terms, and that represents them without the additional 12-15 years of real world experience that the current versions of them have.


Did they fight so many building shattering folks with glowy hands that they'll immediatly categorize him/her as a priority one threat?I think that it's been mentioned that they have fought wizards in the past; also, there was a claim by someone that Don plays D&D...

[Jayabalard]

In a slightly closer battle, OOTS also beats TMNT.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=TNMT&word2=OOTS

Conclusion: OotS > TMNT

beyond the refutation that I did for this a page ago, I did notice something else: you used TNMT rather than TMNT... if you do it the correct way, TMNT wins by land slide (17,100,000 vs 287,00 in favor of TMNT)

very sneaky of you.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=TMNT&word2=OOTS

[kabbes]

As somebody that blindly voted for the OOTS, having read through this (alright, rather preposterous) thread, I've changed my mind. The TMNT-supporters have convinced me.

Just for the record, that is. Because it's nice to know that there are lurkers reading and weighing the words.

[StudlyDuck]

I really think it has to do with three factors. One, is Splinter there? Even though he isn't a turtle, he is there for a lot of important battles. Since he's not usually there, we have to assume that he won't be there for for at least the first battle. TMNT will probably get mopped if he's not there. Maybe in a second encounter, he could be there to help them and turn the tides a bit. Second, is how quickly the Turtles could take out V. If V goes down early, this will make the battle a lot easier for the turtles, since they can't do much against V's magic. If V goes down early, I think that the Turtles' fighting ability trumps the OOTS. Third is the battle field. If the battle field is in a city or someplace where the turles can hide and strike from the shadows, they might have a chance. In someplace like a field, I don't think they have a chance at all, however, even if Splinter is there.
As previously stated, the turtles have the advantage in terms of stealth and observational skills. Therefore, they would most likely be aware of the OoTS before the OoTS were aware of them. This would give the turtles the advantage of being able to choose the battleground.

[Darkxarth]

Actually do tell. Except Elan I can't think of any recent incidents where the OOTS screwed each other in combat.Eh, I'll take your word for it... My experience is that in combat they're about as "ninja" as Naruto is aka. loud, impressive, and meele oriented. Not long ranged assination tactics based. They're sword wielding martial artists not ninjas imo.
I haven't read the TMNT comics myself, but according to the people who have and who've posted here, they are very much Ninjas. And we're basing this off as webcomic vs. comic, not webcomic vs. 90s children's cartoon.


If ye say so, though I'm surprised you left Durkon out. Still what makes you think they're that good? Any examples in canon where something similar happened? I think they can all distract them long enough for V to pull a deus ex. maybe use cold attacks to slow their metabolism. Course it's iffy V will figure that out.
I'd say that only Durkon could hold his own against one of the Turtles. Roy is good, sure, but he's not optimized, and Leo could outclass him in a fight, as could Raphael.


EDIT:They're fighting in heavy armor, when neither ninjas or martial artists aren't good with them. It's natural armor so I can understand if they can do the fancy moves even with the shells, but a negative... something is expected imo. And heck they're turtles. It just seemed logical.

They're not fighting in heavy armor, they're fighting with natural armor. No other creature in the monster manual is hindered by its natural armor, so why would the Turtles be? And the balance to the good natural armor bonus would be some sort of Level Adjustment.

Also, OotS does not work well as a team. Take comics 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) through 113. Through those comics, Roy disregards Elan entirely, sending him somewhere where he thinks he can't do any damage, and where he nearly completes Xykon's evil plan; Belkar abandons the casters to fulfill his own bloodlust; V gets totally paralyzed; Haley, left behind previously (great teamwork there) shows up unarmed; Roy screws up to the point where his sword his shattered by Xykon; Haley and Elan are both totally occupied by the Symbol of Pain; Durkon and Belkar are completely useless against the two Zombie Ogres and Redcloak; and the whole team only wins because Roy has the power of Plot on his side, which he wouldn't in a battle with the TMNT. I'd say that's some poor teamwork on the Order's part.

[Bad Luck]

Okay, this ridiculous argument was enough to get me to register on this forums and log in.

1) first of all, if it's OOTS vs. TV turtles, OOTS wins.
2) If it's OOTS webcomic turtles vs. Comic Turtles, Turtles win.

I think the conversion actually has to be done from Palladium to 2nd ed, and then 2nd to 3.5. But looking at the Turtles abilities from Palladium:

A) Whatever the SDC translates to, their armor was such that you could shoot any of the turtles with pretty much anything less than a bazooka and they could walk away - their Natural shell armor is significantly better than plate and has no hindrance on their movement. A thug attacked one with a baseball bat, and the bat shattered. Remember, these guys are Mutants, so the shell itself can't be compared to an actual turtle. Their skin is also pretty resilient.

B) They all have a 95% stealth, hide, and move silently. The turtles have a team bonus when they all fight together as well. They all have 4 to 6 attacks each, their bonus is fine two handed but they are even better fighting one handed. Without weapons they are still lethal and can stun, KO, or kill with their bare fists and feet.

On various occasions, the turtles have accomplished the following:

Blindfighting

Suspended animation - surviving low oxygen and exposure to vacuum in the hold of a space ship for several hours.

Dodging laser weapons.

Throwing anything they can get their hands on and using it as a lethal weapon.. the sword, bo, and sai (and pieces of) have all been thrown. I don't recall them using shuriken though...

Catching/Knocking projectiles out of the air.

Killing a Tyrannosaurus Rex (CR 8, bite +20 melee) without getting hit.

Taking on and killing hardened Gladitorial Triceratons, who were galactic champions of a multi-alien killing competition.

- I think the last one does it for me. Basically you take the best hand-to-hand combat champions of not just a planet, but multiple planets, throw them in the ring, and they die to the turtles in a few seconds. (Don being the only one injured, as he's the weakest link)

[StudlyDuck]

Yeah, that fight with the triceratons was awesome.
If I recall correctly, Mike was seriously injured before he even stepped into the ring, too.

[Ralfarius]

Although, they were capable of Dungeon-Crawl type adventures; Return to New York featured them entering the Foot compound by pure force.
Granted, they did convince a half brain-dead triceraton to help them with that one.

I believe Return to New York also had them not only defeating hordes of Foot, but also the Shredder's elite guard, three mutated shredder clones (with four arms, giant crab claws, and being a bouncy midget, respectively), and Leo squared off against a reborn Oroku Saki himself. Not only did he win, one-on-one, he sliced Saki's head clean off.

[Reptilus]

How likely is it that the turtles would be able to throw shurikens at a moving target while fighting the other 4 melee OOTS and being stung by Haley's arrows? Either way I think protection from arrows would take care of that.
The turtles throw their weapons in melee all the time, will probably attack V before the OotS engage them, seeing as he is the obvious first target for so many reasons that it's almost unavoidable, and he has to cast that for it to work. If he wastes his time casting that, one of the TMNT will get in close and kill him in Melee using a disappearing trick to evade engaging the OotS.


EDIT: I also believe all the TMNT use both hands for fighting making tossing anything except their own weapons impossible.
Tuck sai in belt. Draw shuriken. Throw. Take sai out of belt. Continue fighting with Sai. They'd just lose offensive melee capability, being restricted to one-weapon parrying, for a few seconds to throw the shuriken. Also, again, they're attacking V before they get in melee with OotS, while OotS is advancing towards them.


Well how competent the turtles would be while dueling would depends on stats we don't know, so I'll just leave that be. Although I do think a competent group would form a body shield around the caster while s/he gets ready.
OotS are not, and have never been, a "competant group" in that respect. In fact, in the one occasion with cause to protect V, it was not done.
Also, we're basing the Turtles stats around their abilities as shown in the show, movies, or comic books. Not the other way around. They're being converted to D&D. Converted meaning they retain the skills and abilities, simply in D&D terms and with D&D rules.


It's true they'll probably be able to get a shurikan attack in there while the OOTS get ready, but after that both parties will need to draw weapons, and by then throwing weapons are out of the equation.
Why is that? You say it as thought it's a fact when there is a pretty easy way around it.

Even if one could throw with their feet (which is really silly not even batman has done that I think)
Tony Menendez can play guitar with his feet. That is much harder than chucking something at someone.

having to track and aim at V would leave them too open. Unless of course they have the whole "being able to sense where your opponent is" thing which I don't know about, and seems a bit cheap to me.
They have that ability. They also have something called "peripheral vision" that allows them to see things they aren't directly looking at. Seriously, though, it takes less than a second to look and throw in that general direction. They don't have to keep track of him, just see where he was right before they threw.


Well that's Belkar not the OotS.
The rest of them were doing a great job of protecting, V, too. I know it wasn't their job, but that means the order to protect V might not even come down for anyone to do.

Even with their training I doubt they can do the throws. Stand on one leg while manipulating your belt with the other, choosing the right pouch w/o looking, and finally throwing, all while someone is doing their darnest to kill ya.
That's why I figure they'll choose to use their hands.

Not to mention TMNT probably suffer from some loss of grace and agility simply cause of their race.
You are joking, right? Do you even have a vague, basic familiarity with the turtles? They are more agile than highly trained, elite ninja. Enough so to take them out in small armies with minour or no injuries.

And why would they cripple themselves by drawing one weapon? Even if they were going to attempt a concerted effort to take out V I'd bet they try to cut him/her down instead of sniping from a distance.
How is drawing one weapon crippling them? They just have to parry only for a few seconds before drawing the weapon again and attacking. If sniping failed, yes. IF not, it'll take him down faster.

It seems to be their specialty.
Shredder's first defeat was at least 80% due to projectile attacks.

Just thinking that V won't be standing still even if s/he only walks around slowly
They hit Shredder when he was attempting to dodge, and I can guarantee he was better at dodging than V.

and they're not going to track the movement while fighting the others.
Look up. Throw three shuriken in an arc. The area will be wide enough that V will at least be forced to dodge, breaking concentration, if he isn't hit.

Did they fight so many building shattering folks with glowy hands that they'll immediatly categorize him/her as a priority one threat?
There are several reasons to take V down first. As a frail-looking, robe-clad man among a group of tough-looking warriors or toned swashbucklers, something for sure got to be up with him, the same way Splinter is an old, skinny rat in robes but could defeat nearly any opponent in unarmed combat. Second, if he is the physically weakest, he will go down first, thus shrinking the number by which they are outnumbered. Third, they've fought a ton of wizards. Donnie plays D&D and MMORPGS. They know what a wizard is.


I think that it's been mentioned that they have fought wizards in the past; also, there was a claim by someone that Don plays D&D...
He plays a couple roleplaying games over and OotS-like message board (r dicefreaks-like, or whatever PBP board you wanna use) at some point. They don't say D&D because it's probably trademarked. Don was the GM, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't a MUD, thought it could've been. Mikey doesn't get it because it doesn't have graphics, so it's a P&P game. He also now plays an MMORPG, so at least he for sure has seen a fantasy wizard.


I think that it's been mentioned that they have fought wizards in the past; also, there was a claim by someone that Don plays D&D...
He plays a couple roleplaying games over and OotS-like message board at some point. They don't say D&D because it's probably trademarked. Mikey doesn't get it because it doesn't have graphics, so it's a P&P game. He also now plays an MMORPG, so at least he for sure has seen a fantasy wizard.


My experience is that in combat they're about as "ninja" as Naruto is aka. loud, impressive, and meele oriented. Not long ranged assination tactics based.
Then your experience is extremely limited. The only time they fought something really, really head on is when they had a crazed Triceraton dying of sickness from our air on their side. Couldn't exactly make Zog be quiet, what with him roaring "FOR THE REPUBLIC" every time he saw a Foot ninja.


If ye say so, though I'm surprised you left Durkon out.
I don't even think Roy could take one on 1v1. Raph has disarmed people with bigger swords, Leo has parried bigger swords, Mikey goes with Raph, and Don is way too smart to fight Roy head on with a wooden weapon. Still, Durkon could hold one at a stalemate with healing and defensive fighting, but never score any decisive blows, I don't think.

Still what makes you think they're that good? Any examples in canon where something similar happened?
Leonardo has performed feats that can only be described as "ridiculous" in how powerful they are; he killed four clones of the shredder in a matter of seconds. Raphael and (as the series progressed and he gained more discipline) Michaelangelo are his combat equals or superiors. Don uses brains to win, and does it well. There is the matter of the creatures they've defeated. They've fought back alien invasions and usually end up battle small armies at once in the majour storylines.


I think they can all distract them long enough for V to pull a deus ex.
Well, they could, if the turtles wouldn't see what they were trying to do. Plus, what spell does V have that would "Deus Ex Machina" (to quote, albeit incorreclty used) them?


maybe use cold attacks to slow their metabolism. Course it's iffy V will figure that out.
They fought in snowy woods and even antarctica. I think they can hold out for a long time against extreme cold.


EDIT:They're fighting in heavy armor, when neither ninjas or martial artists aren't good with them.
They're fighting in heavy-armour-quality natural armour.

It's natural armor so I can understand if they can do the fancy moves even with the shells, but a negative... something is expected imo. And heck they're turtles. It just seemed logical.
Lizardmen have natural armour and no dex penalty or check for it. They're ninja turtles, not just turtles.


Granted, they did convince a half brain-dead triceraton to help them with that one.
LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC!
Seriously, Zog was a liability as much as a help.


I believe Return to New York also had them not only defeating hordes of Foot, but also the Shredder's elite guard, three mutated shredder clones (with four arms, giant crab claws, and being a bouncy midget, respectively), and Leo squared off against a reborn Oroku Saki himself. Not only did he win, one-on-one, he sliced Saki's head clean off.
Yeah. Return to New York is pretty much the coolest thing ever. Although the Triceraton deathmatches were amazing, too. It also has Raph beating Leo. If Raph can beat Leo without too much trouble, and Leo can take Shredder decisively in a close fight, that means Raph. . . Oh, yeah!


Throwing anything they can get their hands on and using it as a lethal weapon.. the sword, bo, and sai (and pieces of) have all been thrown. I don't recall them using shuriken though...
Check out the very first issue. One of them throws shuriken at Shredder on the rooftop.


- I think the last one does it for me. Basically you take the best hand-to-hand combat champions of not just a planet, but multiple planets, throw them in the ring, and they die to the turtles in a few seconds. (Don being the only one injured, as he's the weakest link)
Don't weak in direct physical combat, only. And Mikey was injured, but Mikey entrered the ring injured, and didn't get any worse injuries. That's right, he was already injured when he fought these things, and wiped the damn floor with them. It was when I started respecting him as much as Raph and Don.

[noweezernoworld]

i am purposely not reading this thread because the amount of people saying OOTS would win would just make me angry.

[GroundHog010]

Turtle P0w4r!

OotS has crappy spot and listen. The turtle ninjas would sneak up and smack'em silly.

Use your shells my turtle homboyz use your shells of awesomeness to crush the Oots!

[Brat-t]

One spell to rule them all:

Evan's tentacles of Forced intrusion

Tentacles always win

[BlueWizard]

OOTS, unless it is the original black and white TMNT.

OOTS has magic!

[Ralfarius]

LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC!
Seriously, Zog was a liability as much as a help.
ALL WHO OPPOSE THE . . . KKRAGGH . . . REPUBLIC -- MUST DIE!

Zog kicked so much ass, even with his brain eaten away by earth's poisonous oxygen-laden atmosphere.

[Laesin]

If we're going by comic crossover precedent the two teams would begin fighting over a misunderstanding, doing minor damage at most to each other then team up to fight the real threat (possibly a Xykon/Shredder alliance)

[Jayabalard]

This thread is for fanboys only, no logical statements allowed...Sorry Laesin </sarcasm off>

[Mummy king]

:elan: Go to shell! *stab*

I'll think up a better one later...

[Jayabalard]

:elan: Go to shell! *stab*

I'll think up a better one later...if you want good puns involving shell, just look for quotes from the TMNT movie... check imdb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100758/quotes)

would doing either of the ninja rap's count?

[Reptilus]

ALL WHO OPPOSE THE . . . KKRAGGH . . . REPUBLIC -- MUST DIE!

Zog kicked so much ass, even with his brain eaten away by earth's poisonous oxygen-laden atmosphere.
Zog really did kick ridiculous amounts of ass. My favourite Zog moment was when he just got decided to throw away his laser weapon and just charge the foot, tearing them apart with his bare hands and goring them with his horns.

[Cybren]

Casey Jones shows up and they start a hockey team.

[Ralfarius]

If we're going by comic crossover precedent the two teams would begin fighting over a misunderstanding, doing minor damage at most to each other then team up to fight the real threat (possibly a Xykon/Shredder alliance)
I am fully in-line with this train of thought. Comic crossover have fairly well-defined progressions, as I mentioned in a manner much less succinct than yourself


But... You know what? The Turtles are good guys, and so is the Order. Like in so many crossovers, it would more likely that they would fight each other for a few pages, neither side gaining much ground (but making for some wicked displays of ability). After that, someone would say something that would bring both groups to a standstill. Either that, or the true enemy would reveal itself.

In the end, the Turtles and the Order would join forces, besting their common enemy in a battle of epic proportions. Promptly afterward, the Turtles would be hurled back to New York, and the one-shot crossover would never be mentioned again by either party, up until a second crossover was made.