Help me steer this rogue into viability.

[robosuit]

Hey gang, I joined my first D&D group earlier this year and decided I wanted to be the classic rogue of the party. I saw Shadowdancer as a PrC option (I was sticking to the core books at first), and decided i'd steer myself that way.

However, after a lot of research and reading into multiclassing, I realized a Rogue/Fighter/Shadowdancer is a pretty lackluster mix and theres tons of room to get creative.

That being said, I've already put the necessary skills/feats (Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility) to be become a Shadowdancer. I'm at Rogue 3/Fighter 2 with Two Weapon Fighting currently and my character mainly shines in social/thievery situations where I can get my hands on near anything. In combat, I can smack typical enemies, but if we get into a harder campaign Ill need to really specialize.

I'm not OCD about optimization, I can deal with being average-above average, so I figured i'd do the Shadowdancer dip as I am prepared for it. My question is, where do I go from there?

I realized I don't need to pursue Shadowdancer past two levels, because the Shadow Hand Martial Discipline would afford me the ability to Shadow Jaunt as well as boosting up my sneak attack.

Could you guys cook up some ways for me to proceed? I'd like to boost my combat ability and added flavor is always nice, but there are so many options. With my current path, what would be the simplest and most efficient way to power up? :smallconfused:

[Almarck]

First thing you're going to need do is explaiin to us the specific edition, rules, and books are allowed; this is important as the base 3.5 rogue and the PF Rogue have different options and some different mechanics to distinguish themselves from each other. This is also important when factoring accessory books or if we're using an SRD.

Your post did not say, but I'm guessing you're running base 3.5, is this correct?

[Curmudgeon]

If you want to boost your combat ability, Two-Weapon Fighting is not a good approach. It's very expensive in terms of feats, and dipping into Fighter for feats means you're not progressing as a Rogue. It's also a very bad idea to stand up against enemies for a full attack, because you'll have to then be prepared for a full counterattack. Going for TWF means you're giving up on flexibility by requiring you to make only full melee attacks. It also doubles your budget for weapon enhancements. With the -2 penalty for TWF and a further -1 or -2 relative to someone who's only enhancing a single weapon, you'll be missing a lot of the time. I don't think that's viable.

Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability is extremely useful to a Rogue, but also very expensive to obtain in terms of prerequisites. One tip: you can get Mobility (see Magic Item Compendium) as an armor enhancement which grants the feat.

You can use the retraining rules in Player's Handbook II to rebuild your character.


I play Rogues most of the time. My Rogues walk around with a composite longbow (if Elf) or shortbow (otherwise) ready to fire. At the start of combat, maximum ranks in Spot usually mean the character isn't surprised and gets to attack in the surprise round, dealing sneak attack damage to flat-footed foes. In the first regular round of combat the character dishes out a full round of ranged sneak attacks against enemies who haven't acted yet and are thus clearly flat-footed. In the second round the character waits until an ally is in place for melee combat (using Delay if necessary) and moves into a flanking position, drawing a rapier as a free action while moving; there's only one attack that round, but it's also a sneak attack. Every attack should be a sneak attack, and the Rogue should never waste an opportunity to deliver sneak attack damage by moving when it's possible to attack. Also note that no feats are required to deliver any of these sneak attacks.

Craven (Champions of Ruin) is a must-have feat for any Rogue; it adds scaling damage to your sneak attack. If you want extra attacks, Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) is a good choice. Unlike Two-Weapon Fighting, which works only with full attacks, you can add an extra Snap Kick attack with all of the following:

full attack
standard action attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attacks, such as from Improved Trip or from casting a touch attack spell from a wand (with Use Magic Device)
Just as you can buy Mobility, you can buy Snap Kick's Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite in the form of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) very affordably, or with extra capability as a Fanged Ring (Draconomicon).

After you dip into Shadowdancer, your next feat should probably be Spring Attack. Both Shadowdancer and Spring Attack are expensive in terms of prerequisites; because those prerequisites overlap, you'll be doubling up on the return for that large prerequisite investment. When an enemy is not perceptive (low Spot modifier) you can move into place and Hide on the way, then Hide again while attacking (-20 penalty) and hope to stay there. If you're hidden while moving, and also stay hidden while attacking, the enemy never gets to see you and doesn't even know what square you were attacking from. That's a huge win, because when they try to make a counterattack they have to guess what square you're in. :smallsmile: If the enemy is more perceptive (higher Spot modifier) and you don't think you can Hide with a -20 penalty, you can use Spring Attack to move, attack twice (thanks to Snap Kick) and then move away and Hide again.

[Troacctid]

Go into Swordsage. The base classes from Tome of Battle work so well with multiclassing that they can pretty easily salvage a weak melee build. Since you already have Two-Weapon Fighting, you could also consider going Bloodclaw Master, which is a pretty fun prestige class.

[robosuit]

If you want to boost your combat ability, Two-Weapon Fighting is not a good approach. It's very expensive in terms of feats, and dipping into Fighter for feats means you're not progressing as a Rogue. It's also a very bad idea to stand up against enemies for a full attack, because you'll have to then be prepared for a full counterattack. Going for TWF means you're giving up on flexibility by requiring you to make only full melee attacks. It also doubles your budget for weapon enhancements. With the -2 penalty for TWF and a further -1 or -2 relative to someone who's only enhancing a single weapon, you'll be missing a lot of the time. I don't think that's viable.

Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability is extremely useful to a Rogue, but also very expensive to obtain in terms of prerequisites. One tip: you can get Mobility (see Magic Item Compendium) as an armor enhancement which grants the feat.

You can use the retraining rules in Player's Handbook II to rebuild your character.


I play Rogues most of the time. My Rogues walk around with a composite longbow (if Elf) or shortbow (otherwise) ready to fire. At the start of combat, maximum ranks in Spot usually mean the character isn't surprised and gets to attack in the surprise round, dealing sneak attack damage to flat-footed foes. In the first regular round of combat the character dishes out a full round of ranged sneak attacks against enemies who haven't acted yet and are thus clearly flat-footed. In the second round the character waits until an ally is in place for melee combat (using Delay if necessary) and moves into a flanking position, drawing a rapier as a free action while moving; there's only one attack that round, but it's also a sneak attack. Every attack should be a sneak attack, and the Rogue should never waste an opportunity to deliver sneak attack damage by moving when it's possible to attack. Also note that no feats are required to deliver any of these sneak attacks.

Craven (Champions of Ruin) is a must-have feat for any Rogue; it adds scaling damage to your sneak attack. If you want extra attacks, Snap Kick (Tome of Battle) is a good choice. Unlike Two-Weapon Fighting, which works only with full attacks, you can add an extra Snap Kick attack with all of the following:

full attack
standard action attack
attack of opportunity
bonus attacks, such as from Improved Trip or from casting a touch attack spell from a wand (with Use Magic Device)
Just as you can buy Mobility, you can buy Snap Kick's Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite in the form of Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) very affordably, or with extra capability as a Fanged Ring (Draconomicon).

After you dip into Shadowdancer, your next feat should probably be Spring Attack. Both Shadowdancer and Spring Attack are expensive in terms of prerequisites; because those prerequisites overlap, you'll be doubling up on the return for that large prerequisite investment. When an enemy is not perceptive (low Spot modifier) you can move into place and Hide on the way, then Hide again while attacking (-20 penalty) and hope to stay there. If you're hidden while moving, and also stay hidden while attacking, the enemy never gets to see you and doesn't even know what square you were attacking from. That's a huge win, because when they try to make a counterattack they have to guess what square you're in. :smallsmile: If the enemy is more perceptive (higher Spot modifier) and you don't think you can Hide with a -20 penalty, you can use Spring Attack to move, attack twice (thanks to Snap Kick) and then move away and Hide again.


First, sorry about not clarifying, we're working with 3.5 and all official related material. Secondly, thank you for such comprehensive answers.

For the sake of maintaining my character's history and not having to go through the tedium of retraining/whatnot. If I maintain the TWF, dip 2 levels into Shadowdancer, dip into swordsage and go for Invisible Blade after, could that be a decent mix?

I could maintain high sneak attack damage and try to work that free action feint with dual kukris. For the rest of the time, I could be near invisible with the Shadowdancer dip and high hide checks. I could use the evasion allotted by the Shadowdancer dip to get the Spell Reflection ACF as well.

TLDR. i did some research and i'll probably pursue swordsage for now. my only question is, aren't I potentially sacrificing doubling my sneak dice if I land a sneak attack with both weapons? could someone explain how TWF and Sneak attacks are supposed to interact? (I think my DM has been ignoring some penalties)

[DMVerdandi]

First, sorry about not clarifying, we're working with 3.5 and all official related material. Secondly, thank you for such comprehensive answers.

For the sake of maintaining my character's history and not having to go through the tedium of retraining/whatnot. If I maintain the TWF, dip 2 levels into Shadowdancer, dip into swordsage and go for Invisible Blade after, could that be a decent mix?

I could maintain high sneak attack damage and try to work that free action feint with dual kukris. For the rest of the time, I could be near invisible with the Shadowdancer dip and high hide checks. I could use the evasion allotted by the Shadowdancer dip to get the Spell Reflection ACF as well.

TLDR. i did some research and i'll probably pursue swordsage for now. my only question is, aren't I potentially sacrificing doubling my sneak dice if I land a sneak attack with both weapons? could someone explain how TWF and Sneak attacks are supposed to interact? (I think my DM has been ignoring some penalties)

Personally, I would choose warblade over swordsage. Higher BAB.
You can learn how to use shadow hand with a feat, so why not get the larger hit dice and BAB?
Also, it has a better refresh mechanic.

As far as two weapon fighting goes, what it does is on a full attack, gives you an extra attack.
However, that means you must first close into melee range (Which requires a move action on either you or your enemy), and hunker down and hit. Whenever you do something to deny AC to an enemy you gain a sneak attack, and each attack in that round gains SA damage.

If you really want to do consistent SA damage, find yourself a wand with a weapon spell that uses touch attacks.

[Karl Aegis]

The cost of two weapons combined with the base accuracy penalties of fighting with two weapons plus the opportunity cost of not using the Power Attack feat with a two-handed weapon is what makes two-weapon sneak attacking not as good as other options. Generally speaking, more successes results in more damage than more chances to succeed. Yes, your potential damage is higher, but you generally won't hit anything with enough consistency to justify the cost of using two weapons instead of one.

Even at lower gold costs, two normal weapons will hit 15% less often than one masterwork weapon due to the +1 to hit from the masterwork quality and the -2 to hit from wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. At higher gold values, you could have used any gold spent on a second weapon to boost the accuracy of your first weapon via strength or dexterity boosts while boosting the chance your iterative attacks have to hit (not that you should be getting iterative attacks without some skillful maneuvering or missing several attacks). Even if you have a caster cast Greater Magic Weapon on your two weapons, you still are, essentially, spending money on a scroll that you otherwise wouldn't have had to buy if you only had one weapon.

Also, if you consider some builds can move 30 feet, kill anything in the Monster Manual and then return to where they were in a single turn, damage just becomes obsolete at some point.

[WeaselGuy]

I have a few points of input, if you don't mind. I tend to play stealthy combat types, so I've devoted a bit of time gaining expertise on the subject. Let me start by saying, Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Shadowdancer 2 is not a bad base.

I assume you have something like the following:

1 - Rogue - Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding - Combat Reflexes, Two Weapon Fighting
2 - Rogue - Evasion
3 - Rogue - Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1 - Dodge
4 - Fighter - Bonus Feat - Mobility
5 - Fighter - Bonus Feat - Spring Attack
6 - Shadowdancer - Hide in Plain Sight - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 - Shadowdancer - Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge

Assuming the above is true, might I suggest pushing 2 more levels of Shadowdancer, nabbing Shadow Illusion and Summon Shadow at SD3 and Shadow Jaunt 20ft at SD4, and taking Blind-Fight at level 9? With this, you can now push into Telflemmar Shadowlord (Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East, p. 36). TSL nabs you a few spells, but more importantly, shadow pounce, which allows you to full attack after shadow jaunting/shadow jumping to your target, which will allow you to get more sneak attacks off.

Something to keep in mind, if you attack first, your target is flat-footed for the duration of your turn. If the target is flat-footed, you can sneak attack with all of your attacks. If you are dual-wielding, you get an extra attack, and ITWF gives you an additional one as well. At level 7, you have 4 attacks then, albeit at a slight minus (I believe right now, it looks something like 3/3/3/-2) with each of them dealing weapon damage +2d6 + strength + enhancement bonus.

Now, some changes I would propose. First, trade out Trap Sense +1 for Penetrating Strike. This allows you to do half sneak attack damage to creatures normally immune to sneak attack. This will help you out against stuff like skeletons and oozes (although, depending on the flavor of ooze, I don't recommend attacking it with melee... bad memories). Look at the Hit and Run Tactics Fighter racial substitution level from Drow of the Underdark. It's included as a Drow racial sub, but doesn't actually have a racial prerequisite. This RSL lets you add your dexterity modifier to damage rolls against flat-footed opponents (aka your target on the first round, and subsequent rounds when you spill a bag of marbles under his feet (more to follow on that). The cost of H&R-T is losing heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies, which you shouldn't be using anyways (Mithral Breastplate is your go to, it's light armor). I also recommend taking the Craven feat at level 12 (the earliest you can manage it). Craven adds 1 damage per character level to your sneak attack damage.

Now then, those marbles I mentioned. They are found in the Arms and Equipment Guide, and cost 5sp (iirc. could be 5gp). They force a balance check against anybody caught in the affected square (1 bag fills 1 square), and anybody making a balance check without at least 5 ranks in balance is flat-footed while balancing, regardless of if they pass or fail the check. Boom, more sneak attack.

So yeah, that's what I've got for now... if you need more info, I recommend googling the Rogue Handbook, pretty sure it's over at brilliantgameologists, it has an obscene amount of information.

[Curmudgeon]

I assume you have something like the following:

6 - Shadowdancer - Hide in Plain Sight - Improved Two Weapon Fighting

It can't be like that. Shadowdancer has 10 ranks in Hide as a prerequisite. You can't have that prerequisite without a minimum of 7 class levels, meaning the first Shadowdancer level can't be before level 8.

[Seharvepernfan]

Also, doesn't ITWF have a bab prereq of +6?

Anyway, if you're not going with a swordsage, I'd get shadowdancer 3. Free silent image is nice, but the shadow companion is really helpful. It can flank with you, it deals strength damage (no save) with a touch attack, and is incorporeal, meaning most attacks against it probably won't work. I suggest you do dip swordsage at some point, preferably when you can grab assassins stance without using a feat, then take shadowblade. Talk to your DM about getting Swords of Subtlety (from the DMG specific magic weapons section), then see if you can further enhance them.

As a rogue, it's a good idea to have an elixir of vision on hand for when you think you're going to go up against a bunch of traps. Arrows of slaying (Constructs and Undead) are great (though expensive), because those enemies are immune to your sneak attacks and have poor fortitude saves. Celestial Armor (specific magic armor) is great for higher level rogues, especially if you can add the nimbleness enhancement, because it has such a high max dex bonus, yet still good AC. Also at higher levels, you may want to consider using wands to attack with via UMD, at least ones with spells that use an attack roll.

Is it legal to have levels in both rogue and martial rogue? If so, I'd do that instead of fighter, so that you retain your skill ranks and other class ability progressions.

[WeaselGuy]

It can't be like that. Shadowdancer has 10 ranks in Hide as a prerequisite. You can't have that prerequisite without a minimum of 7 class levels, meaning the first Shadowdancer level can't be before level 8.

This is what I get for posting at work without books handy. I based my statement off of him saying he had Rog 3/Ftr 2, prepping for SD 2. Be that as it may, it doesn't really change much. I would still have taken Rog 3/Ftr 2/Rog +2 then into SD 4 and then TSL 6. After that, I don't know, Assassin 2 gets you another sneak attack die, along with death attack, poisons and improved uncanny dodge, but by that point poisons aren't going to be that spectacular. Swordsage or Warblade wouldn't be horrible either.

With regards to ITWF, that's fine, swap it with blind-fight, problem solved.

[Denver]

Assuming you are going to stick with Two-Weapon Fighting (because, hey, hitting things a bunch is fun when it works) you might consider taking the feat Telling Blow, if you can fit it into your progression. Telling Blow allows critical hits to apply Sneak Attack damage, and if you're already rolling additional attacks, the added chance to add damage under the right circumstances could be worth it.

And, while most of your attacks should be Sneak Attacks already from you using the Rogue in a situationally advantageous manner (especially as a Shadowdancer), I have found that on many occasions an encounter can prevent Sneak Attack damage due to distance, concealment, cover, or being a stand-up fight. In those instances, it can be nice when you get a lucky roll or two and get an unexpected boost in damage.

While some consider it a marginally beneficial feat, I think it offers benefits often enough to be worth considering. Though, in your case, that also depends on if you go back to taking Rogue levels after the working to Shadowdancer, for the extra dice of Sneak Attack damage.


my only question is, aren't I potentially sacrificing doubling my sneak dice if I land a sneak attack with both weapons? could someone explain how TWF and Sneak attacks are supposed to interact? (I think my DM has been ignoring some penalties)

For each successful attack that meets the criteria to trigger Sneak Attack damage, that damage is applied.
So when your Rogue/Fighter flanks an opponent in a round and lands both attacks while that opponent is flanked, both attacks apply Sneak Attack damage.

Edit: I see someone already answered the Two Weapon Fighting - Sneak Attack question, apologies.

[Optimator]

When going for a melee precision-damage blender sometimes a three-level Swashbuckler dip can be advantageous. Free finesse, Int to damage, Grace, um, I think that's it? Full BAB and d10 health is always good.

In fact, a Daring Outlaw build might be right up your alley.

[Platymus Pus]

I'd think about getting sniper googles. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles)
It's basically a constant Sniper Shot spell on goggles.

[Blackhawk748]

When going for a melee precision-damage blender sometimes a three-level Swashbuckler dip can be advantageous. Free finesse, Int to damage, Grace, um, I think that's it? Full BAB and d10 health is always good.

In fact, a Daring Outlaw build might be right up your alley.

This is always good, as who doesnt like Int to Damage? Also TWF isnt terrible as your not full Rogue, so the follow up attacks wont hurt so bad. That being said, getting precision damage is the easiest way to make TWF viable. Now lets make that better, dont get ITWF, get gloves of the balanced hand. They are 8k but you would act as if you had ITWF. Also get a Flanking buddy, weather this is from Shadowdancer or just having the party beatstick stand across from you, this will let you turn enemies into a fine mulch, and give them more to think about.

Also get a mantle of displacement, lesser, 20% miss chance is wonderful, but you are squisher than your average frontliner so its very important for you not to get hit.

[robosuit]

Thank you everybody this is definitely showing me the myriad places I can take this guy.

Right now I'm pretty enamored with the Shadow Hand maneuvers of the Sword Sage, so I may dip my next two levels into Swordsage in order to get Assassins Stance, Pearl of Black Doubt and then some really nice maneuvers like Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, etc etc. That way, if sneak fails, I can quickly turn the situation around with a few clever movements. (Maybe including Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw?). I'd also pick up Mountain Hammer just so I can break things in the dungeon until my DM gets pissed off.

Now, the higher BAB of warblade is enticing, but I think I need to be really feat conscious if I'm going to push for Telflammar Shadowlord later. burning a feat to learn shadowhand could be risky, plus i've already selected the 7 swordsage maneuvers i'd be aiming to learn upon my second swordsage level

I think after this next campaign, i'll take some of the party loot to go buy two keen masterwork kukri to be my main weaponry, so I can use telling blow and deal a nice amount Sneak Attack dice (2d6 from the rogue, 2d6 from assassins stance, potentially more SA with extra items)

Spring Attack is a good investment, because the Shadowlord class is very enticing, if I can swing a field trip to Faerun with my DM (either by quest or by timeskip) so that I can interact with the guild

As of now, my prospective build would be R2/F2/R1/SS2/SD2, and then the road is open to either an invisible blade (with the intro requirements negotiated bc theyre broken) or the shadowlord (for spells and pouncing)

and i'd try to get penetrating strike/spring attack/telling blow during that time. does that seem like a nice progression?

[WeaselGuy]

Thank you everybody this is definitely showing me the myriad places I can take this guy.

Right now I'm pretty enamored with the Shadow Hand maneuvers of the Sword Sage, so I may dip my next two levels into Swordsage in order to get Assassins Stance, Pearl of Black Doubt and then some really nice maneuvers like Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, etc etc. That way, if sneak fails, I can quickly turn the situation around with a few clever movements. (Maybe including Sudden Leap from Tiger Claw?). I'd also pick up Mountain Hammer just so I can break things in the dungeon until my DM gets pissed off.

Now, the higher BAB of warblade is enticing, but I think I need to be really feat conscious if I'm going to push for Telflammar Shadowlord later. burning a feat to learn shadowhand could be risky, plus i've already selected the 7 swordsage maneuvers i'd be aiming to learn upon my second swordsage level

I think after this next campaign, i'll take some of the party loot to go buy two keen masterwork kukri to be my main weaponry, so I can use telling blow and deal a nice amount Sneak Attack dice (2d6 from the rogue, 2d6 from assassins stance, potentially more SA with extra items)

Spring Attack is a good investment, because the Shadowlord class is very enticing, if I can swing a field trip to Faerun with my DM (either by quest or by timeskip) so that I can interact with the guild

As of now, my prospective build would be R2/F2/R1/SS2/SD2, and then the road is open to either an invisible blade (with the intro requirements negotiated bc theyre broken) or the shadowlord (for spells and pouncing)

and i'd try to get penetrating strike/spring attack/telling blow during that time. does that seem like a nice progression?

For Shadowlord, unless you have the money to donate to the church to buy your template 2 levels of shadowdancer can qualify you for entry.

[razorback]

to go buy two keen masterwork kukri
Remember that in order to be keen the kukris need to be +1 magic first. AFB but I think if you can fit in 3 levels of Bllod Claw Master and are attacking with your kukri, it eliminates the -2, as some pointed out above, plus it increases your initiator level and gives you either another maneuver or stance.

[Optimator]

Telling Blow is one of those feats that's almost worth it. If you have room in a build and you know you're going to crit a lot (Kukri, Rapier, Scimitar, Great Crossbow, etc) it can be nice but it is definitely one to drop if feats get tight.

Swordsage is a brilliant entry into Telflammar Shadowlord. The teleports you get are great because you can do them with great frequency, and the maneuvers in general make for a more-than-competent fighter. Most of the maneuvers you mentioned are also some of the biggest stand-outs so good going there :smallwink: I heartily endorse Sudden Leap but it doesn't get siiiick until you can start jumping 15-25 feet reliably. Still, the extra movement is sensational, and sometimes vital!

People always talk up Bloodclaw Master but I think it's relatively easy to pass up.

[Troacctid]

The big drawback of Bloodclaw Master is that you lose a point of BAB. So even though you no longer take the penalties for TWF, it's like, well, you kind of took a -1 penalty anyway compared to just taking Warblade levels. It is a cool, fun class though.

[Denver]

Telling Blow is one of those feats that's almost worth it. If you have room in a build and you know you're going to crit a lot (Kukri, Rapier, Scimitar, Great Crossbow, etc) it can be nice but it is definitely one to drop if feats get tight.

I certainly don't want to derail the thread, but if I might quickly give Telling Blow the (captain obvious) rhetoric it deserves:

The feat obviously appeals to the Rogue that even slightly hunts out the Critical Hit, by using a rapier or other weapon with a wide Critical Threat range.

But, even a Rogue using a Longsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other can benefit at a statistically above average rate, thanks to the added attack rolls from using two weapons - both of which have a two spot critical threat range. In this way, the feat can also enhance the Two Weapon Fighter style of Rogue, by making that off-hand weapon all the more fearsome (which it usually is not.) Further, it also helps make the auto hit of a critical something to be "happy" about, which is a big boon for that Two-Weapon Rogue who laughs wistfully when his dagger successfully crits and he hits for 8 damage.

Of course, adding Sneak Attack dice of damage is not substantial in a multi classed build at the lower end, but if the character ends up with even 7 levels of Rogue (the minimum I think Sneak Attack dice of damage still have a payoff).

There are other situational or conditional reasons to take Telling Blow. Ability to Sneak Attack invisible opponents, ability to Sneak Attack at ranges exceeding thirty feet, ability to Sneak Attack opponents with Cover or Concealment. And, as Curmudgeon already mentioned Craven, I'll also add that if a Rogue has already taken Craven, then it is extremely synergistic to take Telling Blow.

/soapbox

[WeaselGuy]

I recommend googling the Rogue Handbook, pretty sure it's over at brilliantgameologists, it has an obscene amount of information.

One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) of the handbooks I recommend, and another (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) that is useful...

[Chronos]

Quoth Troacctid:

The big drawback of Bloodclaw Master is that you lose a point of BAB. So even though you no longer take the penalties for TWF, it's like, well, you kind of took a -1 penalty anyway compared to just taking Warblade levels. It is a cool, fun class though.
Not only that, but you have the opportunity cost of what else you could have gotten from those two levels. You could, for instance, have taken two levels of Fighter and picked Weapon Focus as your feat. That would give you the exact same attack bonus when two-weapon-fighting, at least as many or possibly more attacks per round due to BAB, and higher attack bonus whenever you're not two-weapon-fighting.

When a class fares poorly compared to Fighter with Weapon Focus, that's generally a sign that the class is a trap.


On more general advice, if you have all of 3.5 to pick from, my preferred way to get Hide in Plain Sight would be a one-level dip in Incarnate followed by three levels of Umbral Disciple (both from Magic of Incarnum). The Incarnate level isn't strictly necessary, but it makes it easier to qualify for UD, and also gives you some very nice bonuses to assorted skills, and/or an at-will ranged touch attack you can use to Sneak Attack with.

[robosuit]

Okay! So I just played again, and reached level 6, where I took Swordsage 1 and equipped myself with a +1 Keen Rapier and a Masterwork Kukri (To be made keen when the gold is available) along with some nice padded armor and a heartseeker amulet.

I've definitely upped my damage considerably and i'm enjoying the bit of critfishing i'm doing. However, I realize i'm kind of stuck between two playstyles. I could do stealth with shadowdancer and eventually shadowlord so my gameplay would center around lots of sneaking, or alternatively I could just do a bit more swordsage and then go fully into a daring outlaw build, with swashbuckler levels.

The issue with shadowlord is negotiating the trip to Faerun, etc etc, as well as the lackluster hit die and 1 trick pony shadowpounce.

With an outlaw build, i'd be a little more well rounded and stack up sneak dice. Decisions, decisions.

Keep discussing though, because you all have made very good points

editors note: i've already used the feats on combat reflexes and mobility so i feel wrong not jumping into shadowdancer for at least a few levels...so thats something to consider. its so flavorful and would synergize nicely with shadow hand techniques...

i could also just pursue more swordsage to be honest