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JellyPooga
2007-04-03, 10:31 AM
Hey y'all.

For a long while I've wanted to play a character that is able to maniulate shadows. However, I've yet to find a class/PrC combo that fits what I have in mind. I'll break it down:

Shadowdancer - Whilst the Shadowjump and Hide in Plain Sight fits (and the high skill points...that's important), there's very little in the way of Spells/Spell-Like abilities that manipulate shadows.

Telflammar Shadowlord - This is the closest I've found to what I want, but I was, again, after something with more in the way of spells. Admittedly, one of the prerequisites is to be a Shadow Walker, which grants a fair few shadow type spell-like abilities, but the spell list and spells per day is somewhat lacking.

Wizard (Illusionist) - Obviously got the access to lots of shadow based spells, but is lacking in the skill and melee department.

Rogue - Good skills, about the right melee ability I'm looking for, no shadow stuff.

Assassin -Good skills, right melee, limited shadow manipulation through magic.


And that's all I could really think of. If you hadn't worked it out, the type of character I'm after is Melee Support with a few tricks up his sleeve. Thus, high skills is preferable for Hide, Move Silently, Tumble and the like and Sneak Attack isn't neccesary, but would be nice. In the way of shadow manipulation, Shadowjump or a similar ability is almost a requirement as well as some spellcasting (something more than, like, 2 spells per day, but not neccesarily as many as a Wizard).

Does anyone know of a PrC or combo that would fill the above requirements (character level isn't an issue, just not epic)?

ThunderEagle
2007-04-03, 10:37 AM
Shadowcaster from ToM seems to fit the bill. Don't know much about it though.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-03, 10:40 AM
There is also series of things (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556) you can do with Shadowcraft Mage, which while it's more about illusion than literal "shadows," you can easily tweak the flavor.

Ashes
2007-04-03, 11:06 AM
Also, if the Shadowcaster (which would be my first suggestion as well) doesn't fit you, you might look at the rogue'y PrC in Tome of Magic. It's quite cool IIRC.

spotmarkedx
2007-04-03, 11:38 AM
You could also consider pulling the shadow stance and maneuvers from Tome of Battle. They even include your required dim door type power. While it doesn't include spellcasting per se, you could either multiclass, or just call your stances and maneuvers your magic instead.

cogross
2007-04-03, 01:05 PM
A warlock with Darkness and Devil's sight? You make globes of darkness, and you can see through them. That can be done at level 2.

JellyPooga
2007-04-03, 01:10 PM
Shadowcaster from ToM seems to fit the bill. Don't know much about it though.

Hmm...I don't own ToM, though I've heard of the Shadowcaster. Could some one give me a brief rundown of what it is, roughly?


A warlock with Darkness and Devil's sight? You make globes of darkness, and you can see through them. That can be done at level 2.

I had thought of using Warlock. The fluff for the class is oh so flexible (e.g. Eldritch Blast = Shadow Blast. Effect is the same, just named/explained differently) and a lot of the invocations are shadow related anyway (Darkness, Devils Sight, Shadow Walk, etc.)

Raum
2007-04-03, 04:44 PM
Hmm...I don't own ToM, though I've heard of the Shadowcaster. Could some one give me a brief rundown of what it is, roughly?Shadowcasters draw power from the Plane of Shadow to create darkness effects, illusions, and negative energy effects (though it's not technically manipulating negative energy). They're an interesting class, possibly on par with the Warlock in terms of power though the extremely limited Mystery uses per day may be a negative in some campaigns.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-03, 04:52 PM
The shadowcaster is incredibly weak, a warlock is vastly superior.

Assassinfox
2007-04-03, 05:18 PM
The shadowcaster is incredibly weak, a warlock is vastly superior.

Shadowcaster tastes better. :smallwink:

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 05:20 PM
The shadowcaster is incredibly weak, a warlock is vastly superior.

You're kidding, right?

Khantalas
2007-04-03, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I was gonna ask that. What would you think Warlocks - friggin' Warlocks! - are better than shadowcasters, one of the better balanced casters of D&D?

Draz74
2007-04-03, 05:51 PM
Meh. They're both weak; the Shadowcaster is a bit stronger than the Warlock.

To the OP:
The Shadowcaster is a full caster who learns a total of 20 "mysteries" [spells], plus "fundamentals" [cantrips].
She can use her higher mysteries once/day. She can use her low-level mysteries (at middle game levels) or mid-level mysteries (in high-level games) twice per day. She can use her low-level mysteries (at high levels) 3/day. As she learns to use mysteries more often, she can cast them as supernatural or spell-like abilities, rather than spells.
Mysteries are annoying in that they have to be learned in certain groups or "paths," in order.
Mysteries can duplicate a pretty well-rounded selection of classic wizard spells. They focus on shadow and darkness, at least in their fluff.
The Shadowcaster gains lots of bonus feats, but only if she dabbles in many "paths," therefore avoiding some of the better mysteries that are at the end of their "paths."
She gains a couple little flavor abilities, which aren't very powerful, such as Darkvision, the ability to cast "fundamentals" infinitely, and the lack of need to eat.
She has stealth skills as class skills, which is unusual for a full caster. But she only gets 2+Int skill points per level, so it's not that amazing.
She has MAD: She needs a minimum Intelligence to cast mysteries. But Intelligence doesn't do anything else for her casting. Charisma determines mystery save DCs.

All in all, I'm not a big fan of the class, partly due to the limited mysteries/day and restrictive paths, and MAD, and the very uneven progression of leveling. (A Level 13 Shadowcaster is WAY more powerful than a Level 12 Shadowcaster. A Level 7 Shadowcaster is WAY more powerful than a Level 6 Shadowcaster. And Levels 6, 18, and 19 are as dead as dead levels can be, except for learning one new mystery. Levels 9 and 17 are technically "dead" too, but at least you get access to a new level of mystery at them.)

So I don't think Shadowcaster is what you're looking for. PrC's? (All in Tome of Magic, in the Shadowcaster section.)

Child of Night: A 9/10 caster class for the Shadowcaster that makes you take on some shadowy aspects of your own. Meh. Good for stealth. Doesn't sound as skilled as you're looking for.

Master of Shadow: 9/10 caster class. 2+Int skill points per level. Meh. The main purpose of it is to give you a Shadow Servant that fights for you (kind of similar to the Paladin's mount).

Noctumancer: Meh. A Mystic-Theurge-type PrC for a Shadowcaster/Wizard.

Shadowblade: Quite similar to Shadowdancer. Good Fort save instead of Ref. Only 2+Int skill points per level -- weird, I thought it had more. Has Sudden Strike progression. The other main ability is to give your weapons shadowy special abilities a few times per day. The special abilities are pretty cool, but I still don't think this is what you're looking for.

Shadowsmith: Perfect! Gives you a little bit of minor Mystery casting on the side (with Int-based DCs, not Cha-based). 6+Int skill points. Good BAB, good Ref save. Nice Stealth bonuses, in addition to stealth skills being class skills. Main class feature: the ability to weave temporary tools, weapons, or eventually armor out of shadows. At higher levels, you can even make your shadow-woven weapons or armor magical. Eventually you can use this ability 5/day. It rewards you for keeping your Craft skill reasonably good, though you don't have to focus too much on that. It gives you a couple other minor abilities, too, like an "Armor of Shadow" deflection bonus.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-03, 05:58 PM
They both lack flexibility in choice of their powers, the shadowcaster gets access to some more potent ones faster than the warlock ... but it pays for that by only getting them once an encounter at best and needing to spend a ****load of money on orbs of shadow. With the money the warlock saves in that regard he can buy stuff to use with UMD (which he can take 10 in) for when his infinite supply of eldritch blasts and invocations doesn't cut it.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 06:04 PM
They both lack flexibility in choice of their powers, the shadowcaster gets access to some more potent ones faster than the warlock ... but it pays for that by only getting them once an encounter at best and needing to spend a ****load of money on orbs of shadow. With the money the warlock saves in that regard he can buy stuff to use with UMD (which he can take 10 in) for when his infinite supply of eldritch blasts and invocations doesn't cut it.

You have a point, one I realized some time ago. The Shadowcaster, as written, is indeed weaker than a sorceror or a wizard and about par with a warlock (more powerful spells, weaker versatility).

In my games, I have altered the Shadowcaster to use a system similar to martial adepts: spend a round in concentration to recover a mystery used (two mysteries, if they're of a path group one below your highest path group, or three mysteries if they're of a path group two below your highest path group).

Draz74
2007-04-03, 06:20 PM
You have a point, one I realized some time ago. The Shadowcaster, as written, is indeed weaker than a sorceror or a wizard and about par with a warlock (more powerful spells, weaker versatility).

In my games, I have altered the Shadowcaster to use a system similar to martial adepts: spend a round in concentration to recover a mystery used (two mysteries, if they're of a path group one below your highest path group, or three mysteries if they're of a path group two below your highest path group).

See, that makes the Shadowcaster much more palatable to me. Though it still has the uneven-leveling-weirdness that is very unaesthetic to me (i.e. Level 7 and 13 power jumps).

Fax Celestis
2007-04-03, 06:30 PM
Well, with this system it's a little less jumpy, since they only get one use until they recover it, like martial adepts with their maneuvers. So, instead of getting +1 use to Initiate mysteries and having Initiate mysteries act like SLAs, they only get the latter benefit. There is no "uses per day" table, since it is replaced by the recovery system.

aaron_the_cow
2007-04-03, 06:58 PM
sounds like you whant a ninja from narto. (don't ask me how to get one)

Kel_Arath
2007-04-03, 07:10 PM
ya scro, pick up the tome of magic, look in the middle section, youll be hooked up fo reals

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-03, 08:55 PM
I built a similar character;
Best answer I thought of was Sorcerer, focus on targeted spells dealing with paralysis, control, or weakening;
Some where actual shadow spells (Shadow Spray, Shadow Binding) and some where just flavored as such (Hold Person worked by Throwing your Shadow into his space and freezing him)

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-03, 09:56 PM
You have a point, one I realized some time ago. The Shadowcaster, as written, is indeed weaker than a sorceror or a wizard and about par with a warlock (more powerful spells, weaker versatility).

In my games, I have altered the Shadowcaster to use a system similar to martial adepts: spend a round in concentration to recover a mystery used (two mysteries, if they're of a path group one below your highest path group, or three mysteries if they're of a path group two below your highest path group).
Ker-yoink!

I was planning to use Shadowcasters in my campaign, but the per day limit just stuck in my craw.
I was going to shift it to per encounter, but I like this a heck of a lot better.
Oh, Fax. When will you stop being so very, very brilliant?

Weighing in; manipulating shadows in the way you're talking about does seem to reccomend the shadowcrafter PrC; plus, creating items and such out of shadowy stuffs and killin' people with it? Bad-donkey.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-04, 01:02 AM
Oh, Fax. When will you stop being so very, very brilliant?

Hopefully never.